Talk:Ukrainska Besida Theatre

Requested move 10 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Ukrainska Besida Theater → Ruska Besida Theatre – ↓ VSL (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 01:24, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

1. Ruska Besida Theatre is a more common name: [1], [2], [3], [4].

2. Ruska Besida Theatre is the name the theatre had for a much longer period of time (1864–1916 vs. 1916–1924).

VSL (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The name Ukrainska Besida Theater used in "Encyclopedia of Ukraine" by Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, link. It's an extremely reliable English-language source, and you must demonstrate something more reliable than just Google Search results numbers to proof common usage according to WP:COMMONNAME, 'cause such stats have nothing to do with reliability of resulted sources. Par. 2 and 3 compared to "Encyclopedia of Ukraine" are irrelevant. Siradan (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources in the search results. VSL (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Such as numismatic catalogue? No, they aren't reliable. So, you must demonstrate clear majority of reliable sources according to COMMONNAME, or there is just nothing to discuss, 'cause encyclopedias aren't something you can practically ignore. Siradan (talk) 04:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources for “Ruska Besida” Theatre:

Encyclopedia of Ukraine: [5], [6]

https://openkurbas.org/en/theaters/ruska-besida-society-theater/

https://openkurbas.org/en/collection/actors-of-the-ruska-besida-society-theater-f-71732/

https://openkurbas.org/en/theaters/ternopil-theatrical-evenings/

https://vufku.org/en/names/les-kurbas-2/

https://vufku.org/en/names/mykola-sadovskyi-tobilevych/

http://culture-art-knukim.pp.ua/article/download/208257/208708/469524

http://institutes.lnu.edu.ua/franko/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/07/literaturoznavsnvo-86.pdf

http://irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?C21COM=2&I21DBN=UJRN&P21DBN=UJRN&Image_file_name=PDF/Ltkpfil_2015_78_9.pdf

http://pnap.ap.edu.pl/index.php/pnap/article/download/923/880

http://www.ndu.edu.ua/images/stories/polissya/78.pdf

https://czasopisma.ispan.pl/index.php/pt/article/download/441/370/2911

https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/19892/file.pdf

https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/26516/file.pdf

https://er.knutd.edu.ua/bitstream/123456789/23638/1/Dialog_2023_P248-249.pdf

https://ia600401.us.archive.org/1/items/journalofukraini3112cana/journalofukraini3112cana.pdf

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/960/3/032036/pdf

https://lia.lvivcenter.org/en/themes/reherit/opera/

https://science.lpnu.ua/sites/default/files/journal-paper/2020/nov/22316/04-kopylyak.pdf

https://ujetimeline.org/chapter-5/culture/

https://web.archive.org/web/20220228175001/https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/culture/encounter-between-dnipro-river-region-and-halychyna

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346844505_Ukrainian_Theater_Actresses_in_Eastern_Galicia

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Ukrainian_Studies/YgQaAQAAIAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22ruska+besida+theatre%22

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Narysy_z_istoriï_ukraïnsʹkoï_kulʹtu/GYTWAAAAMAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22ruska+besida+theatre%22

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Soviet_Ukraine/tv9oAAAAMAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22ruska+besida+theatre%22

https://www.google.com/books/edition/What_is_Progress/r-AuEAAAQBAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22ruska+besida+theatre%22

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Видатні_діячі_України/Iq0rAQAAIAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22theatre+ruska+besida%22

VSL (talk) 09:51, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding points 2 and 3, see WP:NAMECHANGES. We generally prefer a new name to an original or longer duration one.

The first link cited above is the Encyclopedia of Ukraine’s equivalent of a redirect, pointing to Ukrainska Besida, the name which it uses in its main article, and the one it appears to use on more pages.[7]  —Michael Z. 01:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding point 1, please read WP:SET. Google web results don’t matter because they don’t represent usage in reliable sources. Results for foreign-language names don’t matter, because we’re trying to determine the right English-language name.  —Michael Z. 01:16, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Google web results show the prevalence also in reliable sources; I have counted around 23 different reliable sources (not pages or use cases) that use the name Ruska Besida Theatre, and not so many for Ukrainska Besida Theatre. VSL (talk) 02:29, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. For the reasons stated above, and because the proposed name is an archaic one, and potentially confusing. Ukrainians in Galicia renamed their theatre company from “Rusyn conversation” to “Ukrainian conversation,” along with the associated organization with clubs throughout western Ukraine, when they stopped calling themselves Rusyns or Rusnaks, and started using the modern national name Ukrainians. —Michael Z. 22:04, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

“The proposed name is … confusing.” This is the argument I can agree with and take into account. VSL (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The name "Ukrainska besida" was adopted only in 1920 Marcelus (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

It was adopted in 1916: [8], [9]. VSL (talk) 23:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move: “… Theater” → “… Theatre”

The spelling “theatre” is more common and widespread (used in the U.S. and the rest of the world, whereas “theater” only in the U.S. VSL (talk) 23:31, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if there’s a good reason to move, but see MOS:RETAIN.  —Michael Z. 15:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

When there is such a reason to change the spelling, it should be changed, not retained, in the absence of objections. And this article has no established spelling that is based on consensus. VSL (talk) 18:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The first revision spelled it "theatre", so by MOS:RETAIN and in the absence of consensus otherwise, it should be named "theatre". (For clarity, it was originally under the name Ukrainian Discourse Theatre, as seen in the first move.) jlwoodwa (talk) 22:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.