Talk:Ugric languages
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editMy apologies for the blanket reversion, but correcting individual details one-by-one would not have been productive. Some particular points:
- The idea of a common Ugric reduction of unstressed vowels is a fringe view at best, as far as I can tell; I've only seen it in some recent treatments of Hungarian historical phonology (and without reference to any Ob-Ugric or other Uralic evidence). Sammallahti (1988) explicitly retains a contrast *a/*ä : *ĭ for his framework of Proto-Ugric.
- "ɜ" is not a distinct Proto-Uralic vowel, but simply a cover symbol for a vowel whose identity cannot be determined. *e and *i in unstressed syllables are the same vowel, with differing views on which should be reconstructed.
- The idea of *s > *h > ∅ directly in Hungarian has indeed been proposed, but is a minority view and would need to be presented as such.
Cosmographia
editI removed the claim that Piccolomini (later Pope Pius II) would have mentioned the connection between Ugric peoples in his Cosmographia (1458). Here's a German translation of what he wrote [from Günter Johannes Stipa (1990)]:
"Im Asiatischen Skythien, nicht weit vom Don, wohnen Völker, ungebildete Menschen, die Idolkult treiben. Diese hätten dieselbe Sprache wie die Ungarn, die in Pannonien wohnen." In Piccolomini 1614: 324 ist hinzugefügt "Sie werden Ungarn genannt.. Ihre Rede unterscheidet sich gar nicht von der, welche die jenseits des Ister [der Donau] Wohnenden gebrauchen. Sie nennen sich Verwandte ... "
It is possible that this refers more to Magna Hungaria instead of Ob-Ugrians, as Scythia is usually associated with a more southern location. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 10:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)