Talk:USS Monitor/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 13:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	There is inconsistent use of United States Navy and Union Navy. Which is it? In the lead, the "United States Navy" is still used, Union Navy is sometimes rendered as Union navy, and is not linked in the text, but it is in see also, where it should not be (given it will be linked in the text) I've used Union Navy throughout and linked it in the lead and body.Y. The reason for Virginias destruction should be in the lead Y The prose should be consistent regarding the definite article used in conjunction with ship names ie "the Monitor or merely Monitor etc, at present both are used with no clear pattern or rationale, I suggest dropping them is the most appropriate consistent response Y Same with the personal pronoun "she" used for ships, the same ship also being described as "it" at one point or another. Fixed remaining example in lead.Y suggest Worden's rank be given in the leadY Army in the lead should probably be "Union Army"Y (and linked)Y
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	there are quite a few examples of overlinking, commencing from the "Duel of the ironclads" subsection (suggest you use User:Ucucha/duplinks Cape Hatteras is still overlinked, as are the hydroblaster pressures Y The statement in the lead "marked a turning point in naval warfare" does not appear to be supported in the body (per WP:LEAD)Y
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	One dead link and several that need stabilising per Checklinks link at bottomY
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	I'm going to flag up-front that it is very difficult to justify a readable prose size of 64K (10.3K words) given the scope of the article, which is essentially about one ship that was in active service for less than a year, regardless of how seminal its creation was in naval warfare. For example, the GA-Class HMS Dreadnought (1906) is less than half the size, and even the general FA-Class article on Dreadnoughts as a class of battleship only just closes on this size. I consider that the size of this article is right on the edge of readable prose. I would expect this aspect to get a very hard look if it was taken to MILHIST ACR and/or as a FAC. I recommend that the major contributors endeavour to develop quality WP:SPINOFFS from this article to reduce its size.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	However, none of the image have alt text accessibility - not a GA requirement Y
	7. Overall assessment.	Listed, with a caution about its size

Checklinks some links need fixing, one deadY

Comments / questions

• Peacemaker67 -- The CSS Virginia was destroyed by confederates as they were retreating and had nothing to do with the Monitor. Are you sure we need to mention this in the lede? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:33, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• It seems to me that Virginias existence (or not) is highly relevant to Monitors activities, as they effectively cancelled each other out. Monitor could only travel up the James River if Virginia was out of the way, which is why I assume she is mentioned in that paragraph of the lead. All that is needed is the insertion of the phrase "as they withdrew" into that sentence.

• Article size: There are several FA articles whose size far exceeds guide lines, such as Ronald Reagan, Barak Obama, etc. Evidently allowances are made for articles whose subject is broad in its scope. Will there be 'any' allowances made here? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:43, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• That may be true, there may also be FA ship articles (which would be a more relevant comparison than two-term Presidents) that I am not aware of that exceed the guidelines, but were they were only operational for less than a year? I challenge the idea that this article is "broad in its scope". In what respect? It is essentially about a single ship. What exactly is broad about its scope? The issue here is that articles need to be of a readable length, so people will read them. The obvious solution here is to spin off the detail of the battles. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:56, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• I am not aware of any such ship's articles off hand, but the concern here is simply about size regarding GA and FA articles. In cases where there is much history involved some articles naturally are longer than average size. There are other such articles besides those of presidents. I've encountered them before and can cite them if you insist and think its necessary. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:06, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• FA articles whose size is larger or comparable to USS Monitor: USS Constitution, USS Iowa turret explosion, USS New Jersey (BB-62), Tanks in the Spanish Army, Antarctica, The Beatles, Australian Defence Force, Yasser Arafat, Battle of the Nile, Ancient Egypt, Gerald Ford, Supernova, William Shakespeare, etc. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:50, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• re: Broad scope. While Monitor was in service less than a year, the subject's scope includes important events that led to its conception, design, building, battles fought and involve notable people like Ericsson, Commander Worden, Green, Sec of War Stanton, President Lincoln, and its loss at sea, rediscovery-recovery, turning point in naval history, etc. This is not some ordinary vessel of the time that was only involved in a couple of battles. I'm hoping we can keep most of the content/context in the article about this unique vessel and advent in history. Just as Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, etc, involve much more important history than other presidents, so does Monitor compared to most other naval vessels. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:06, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'll say one thing, a comparison with a non-ship article is a "red herring" as far as I am concerned, there are plenty of important ships that have high quality articles of readable size. Comparing like with like is appropriate, comparing this article with an article on Lincoln or an ancient civilisation just doesn't ring true. The whole point of having a wiki is that people can click on links to find out more details about other things outside the article's main focus. The battles are an example of material that should probably be put into one or more WP:SPINOFFs to improve readability and navigation of this article. I haven't decided yet, I'm just flagging it as an issue that concerns me, as the article is right up at the edge of readable prose size. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for you consideration. Yes, I included examples of FA articles of other ships and ship related subjects for you, as well as the others. In any case, the coverage of battles, e.g. the Battle of Hampton Roads goes hand in hand with the Monitor -- just as Lincoln and the American Civil War do. i.e.The Civil War is well covered in Lincoln's biography where it involves him. The main article (for Battle of Hampton Roads) is about 8 to 10 pages long, while the section for that battle in the Monitor article is about a page and a half and covers just the basic battle and Monitor's involvement. In any case, it's good to see that you're thinking about these things rather than coming down with an iron hammer on issues. I'm willing to go along with almost anything you advise -- just hope we can keep the content in tact as is practiced in other GA/FA articles whose subject is involved. It's very important to the quality of the narrative and history, imo. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you point out specific examples of excessive detail/coverage so that y'all can discuss what's worthy of being retained, Peacemaker67. Gwhillickers has already shown that he thinks the current level of detail is appropriate and will need at least some sort of guidance.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Sturmvogel, specific examples rather than personal innuendo would have been a smarter approach. Are you referring to all details you added regarding armor thickness, diameter of guns, engine bore and stroke, butt joints, pump pressures and all the details in the Rediscovery and Recovery sections? These are all okay by me, as ships of this sort are highly technological entities and such broad coverage and attention to detail is welcomed by most naval buffs, historians and students of naval history. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Not referencing anything in particular, just saying that specifics are generally more useful than generalities. That said, your comment about "general innuendo" isn't clear. Who or what are you referring to, exactly?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Generalities are needed and serve as a way of introducing specifics, details. We can't just dive into details without general context. After weeks of reading, writing, sourcing, trips to the library, buying books, I believe we did a good job providing a balance of both these ideas. Monitor was a unique vessel, in many respects, and to begin gutting the article of details would take away from the sort of things naval ship enthusiasts would love to read about, imo. e.g. Details about armor thickness gives us more insight into the battle where the two ships were hammering each other at close range. Ditto with cannon bore, ship's speed, ventilation for a crew that was doing battle locked under what could have been their steel tomb. All the details about the ship sort of materialize when we come to read about the battles. Enough said. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:08, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

• Peacemaker67, regarding the use of 'she' vs 'it' in reference to Monitor, I think I've fixed what you were referring to, but not quite sure here. What say you? -- Also, the 'Alt' in the captions as you say are not GA requirements, but since you noticed these I'll go ahead and include those directly. Thanks for looking out. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• Peacemaker, when you say the hydroblaster pressures are over linked do you mean the PSI is converted to other units of measure more than it should be? Since 'hydroblaster' only occurs once in the article it would seem this is what you meant, so I'll go ahead and remove the conversions from psi. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
  • No, he meant that there was an earlier link to psi referring to engine pressure. I reverted your change and removed the link.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:34, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Just leave me to do the ticking in the table, that way I can keep track of what I am happy with. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:47, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry about that. In any case I can't seem to find that dead link. I checked 'External links', even removed a couple that were not going to the intended page. If it can be removed without effecting anything else you are welcomed to do so. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• I believe it is being used to reference something about a museum? I've tagged the link as dead. If you search the page for dead link you'll find it. If it isn't working and you can't find any alternate source for the info, the dead link and the information that was sourced from it will need to be removed. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• Y Fixed. Here is the new link. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• Listed. I strongly recommend that you use Template:refbegin and Template:refend on the subsections of the Bibliography section to compress them a bit. So far as I am concerned, the size remains an issue, but as it is lineball, I'm giving this article the benefit of the doubt for GA. I would expect greater resistance at MILHIST ACR or FA. I recommend that serious consideration be given to developing one or more spinoffs to reduce its size. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• Peacemaker67, first let me say Thank You  for your time and effort. I will consider your advice about article size strongly. It would seem that the Rediscovery and Recovery sections might do well with their own article, esp since there are none. I will consult with Sturmvogel, as he was the major author there. I still feel strongly about including the many details (perhaps not every solitary one of them, but indeed most) as they give depth of understanding to the sections covering the battles and the sinking. As you might have gathered, I am an inclusionist, esp when it concerns history. This is not to say I welcome unnecessary information. If a given detail can fit into the narrative beyond just citing the detail, it should be included, imo. At any rate, thanks for your considerations and flexibility on that note. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)