Talk:Transformers Universe (video game)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Transformers Universe (game) per discussion below. - GTBacchus^(talk) 19:53, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

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Transformers Online → Transformers Universe – Relisting. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC) The MMO's title has been announced as Transformers Universe. The current article at Transformers Universe is simply a redirect. Pliigi (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment "Transformers Universe" is highly ambiguous, it should eb a disambiguation page. Transformers: Universe and Transformers fictional universe and Transformers (film series) film universe are also likely. 65.94.47.217 (talk) 04:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comment It's not ambiguous, it's the exact name of this game. Why not have the game article at Transformers Universe and link to Transformers Universe (disambiguation) from it? Pliigi (talk) 09:15, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
  • If it's not ambiguous, why would we need a disambiguation page. The question is, is it the primary topic? As an unreleased video game, I'm tempted to say 'no'. Powers ^T 01:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
    • It's the only thing with an article that's actually called Transformers Universe, so yes, it's the primary thing people searching for "Transformers Universe" will be looking for. Pliigi (talk) 07:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
      • So you don't think that some people looking for Transformers: Universe might forget to use the colon? Powers ^T 17:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
        • Of course they might, which is why there would be a link to the disambiguation page for other similarly named articles. Pliigi (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
          • You're contradicting yourself. You said earlier "It's not ambiguous", but now you're saying it is. Powers ^T 23:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
            • I'm not sure why you care so much about not having this article be at the obvious place, but you are. This is going nowhere, so never mind. Pliigi (talk) 01:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
              • Transformers Universe (MMO) Pliigi (talk) 02:22, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
                • So, is that a duplicate article to this one, or is that describing a different game? Powers ^T 13:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
                  • Key issue as it turns out, see below. Andrewa (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
              • Hey, I don't care all that much. I'm asking because your position is confusing, and when I called you on a contradiction, you throw up your hands and say "never mind"? The thing is, your proposed solution may actually be the best option, but the reason you're giving ("it's the exact name of the game") is not a good reason to choose it. Powers ^T 13:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• There also was a Transformers book called Transformers Universe that described all the Transformers that were known of then. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
  • This was apparently an issue of Transformers Universe (comic book) [1]. Andrewa (talk) 22:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Transformers Universe is ambiguous in any sensible terms, and should be the title of a DAB. Andrewa (talk) 01:38, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
  • And so I've created one at Transformers Universe (disambiguation). It already has five lines and no redlinks, including the existing article Transformers Universe (comic book) on the Marvel and other comic-format series. (It will drop to four assuming the two MMO articles are about the same game and/or the MMO articles get merged anyway.) Andrewa (talk) 17:04, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we might need to file this under the most pointless discussion yet to be seen on talk pages anywhere. At worst it's certainly in for the bronze. The article already at Transformers Universe (MMO) looks to be about the same game, and both articles are stubs. If anyone seriously thinks that this is the primary meaning of Transformers Universe, then either prove me wrong (it does happen) or merge the articles to Transformers Universe (MMO) (via the right procedures to preserve history for copyleft purposes please) and expand it to more than a stub. Then and only then might the move proposal have some point to it. Good luck. Andrewa (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

And I'm not even sure I want to ask what Transformers Online (American Version) was supposed to be about. Andrewa (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

See #A little recap below for the answer to this. Andrewa (talk) 16:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm a disambiguator, not someone intimately involved in the Tranformers articles, but I wanted to mention what I did disambiguation-wise for the term "Transformers Universe", since I see that there has been some ongoing discussion on the topic. I moved the disambiguation page for the term (which seemed like it was definitely needed) from Transformers Universe (disambiguation) to Transformers Universe. Transformers Universe used to redirect to Transformers: Universe (as I know was mentioned above), but it didn't seem like that was the primary topic for the term, and in that case, the disambiguation page gets the privilege of existing simply at "Term", with no "(disambiguation)" needed (more information available at Wikipedia:Primary_topic#Naming_the_disambiguation_page). Hopefully that was clear and non-problematic, but I'm happy to have more disambiguation-related discussion if it is needed. -- Natalya 18:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I certainly support that move, and thanks for the heads-up on my talk page.

But it does seem to assume that this RM won't be performed. And it seems unlikely to gain consensus to support the move, but it's still technically open and I feel I'm too involved now to close it myself. So I'll just note that if the page under discussion here (or any other) were to be moved to the undisambiguated title Transformers Universe, the DAB should of course be moved back first rather than overwritten. Andrewa (talk) 01:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

• Move Transformers Online to Transformers Universe (game). This is the more complete version of the article and the only one with significant multiple editors, and should be the basis for the long term development of the article.
  • This of course assumes that there will only one article, with separate sections for the multiple MMOs it describes. Andrewa (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Redirect Transformers Universe (MMO) to Transormers Universe (game). This version of the article is purely the work of Pliigi but does have some worthwhile content not in the other. We probably don't really need to preserve its edit history (remembering we are concerned to validly copyleft the text but not the information) but this does preserve it anyway.
• Leave the DAB where it now is at Transformers Universe and update it to reflect the above.
• Leave the decision as to the eventual disambiguator (game, MMO, whatever) until the dust settles a little.
  • On reflection, it needs to be game if it describes multiple MMOs. Andrewa (talk) 17:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Post some encouragement at User talk:Pliigi. This has not been the easiest intro to Wikipedia, and they have tried hard and done well.

Comments? If none I'm bold enough to do it all myself, as I don't think admin powers are needed (it might not stop me even so but far better not to boldly use them). But discussion preferred! Andrewa (talk) 21:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I have put a redirect at Transformers Universe (MMO) in the hope that this will redirect any further development of the article for the moment. It would be sad if it gained significant edit history involving other editors before this is resolved. Andrewa (talk) 21:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

And I'm merging some of the material. Again, this might be a bit bold but doesn't need sysop powers and isn't intended to preempt the move discussion. Andrewa (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Possibly too bold! Happy to revert if we decide to have more than one article, see #A little recap below. Andrewa (talk) 16:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

On the subject of the article created at Transformers Universe (MMO) [2], that was clearly misnamed at the very least IMO, as it appears now that it described just one of several MMOs all named Transformers Universe. Andrewa (talk) 17:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

In that the lead now didn't match the title nor the title the content, I've again been (possibly too) bold and created sections as suggested below, and a lead that reflects both the current title and content. It's still a bit ugly but can't be completely cleaned up until this move proposal is resolved one way or another.

Still wanting to move to Transformers Universe (game). Andrewa (talk) 00:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The way forward

IMO I shouldn't close this request, being too involved. Here are my suggestions:

• I'd still like the article moved to Transformers Universe (game), and think that at the risk of arguing from silence we have a rough consensus for this.
• Alternatively, I'm happy to raise a new RM to that effect if this is closed as no consensus.

But I think this has been in the backlog with no activity for long enough.

I'd also suggest that when closing, the subsections of this Requested move (including this one) all get included in the move archive box, but that #Merged material, #What? and subsequent discussions below aren't strictly speaking part of the move discussion, and are best left open. Andrewa (talk) 01:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I still think Transformers Universe deserves a separate article, as it has an actual announced name and has received press coverage. It doesn't make much sense having two games which are completely unrelated sharing an article.

Why would 'Transformers Online' (the default name of the Asian MMO) be moved to Transformers Universe (game), too? It has absolutely no connection to Transformers Universe. Pliigi (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merged material

More complete Infobox from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transformers_Universe_(MMO)&oldid=433860174

Old Infobox was {{Infobox VG | title = Transformers Online | developer = NetDragon | publisher = | genre = [[Massively multiplayer online game|MMOG]] | modes = [[Multiplayer video game|Multiplayer]] | platforms = [[Microsoft Windows]] | media = Web interface | input = }} and the only discrepancy is in the developer... can anyone resolve this? Andrewa (talk) 21:30, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems likely (assuming the merge proposal stands) that it will be neatest to have both infoboxes, in separate sections on the two different MMOs. Yes, they can be different MMOs even if they are the same game and even run the same software (which I gather they don't propose to do). (I note that the MMO article has issues too.) Andrewa (talk)

What?

This is ridiculous. What have you done? So now the article is about Transformers Online, an asian game and the infobox is for Transformers Universe, a western game. Also, why does Transformers Universe (MMO) redirect here when it has nothing to do with Transformers Online? I know I'm a relatively new editor, but what you've done makes absolutely no sense. Pliigi (talk) 00:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• And where did all my work on the Transformers Universe (MMO) article end up? Since that's, you know, not this game. Pliigi (talk) 00:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm completely confused. This is bizarre. How did this make sense to any of you? Pliigi (talk) 00:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Just to clarify: Transformers Online and Transformers Universe are completely unrelated. The current content on this page should be at Transformers Universe (MMO). The content that was previously here which was about Transformers Online should be placed back here. I'd do it myself but that doesn't seem to have met with much support last time. Could someone please confirm that I can do that? Pliigi (talk) 08:18, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
      • Pliigi is right - this content is related to a game called Transformers Universe, NOT Transformers Online. There are two games, both completely unrelated. The content currently here is correct, but under the wrong title (Should be Transformers Universe or some variation thereof), and whatever was here before needs to return. Thanks, Xela King (talk) 08:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
        • OK, you're saying there are two unrelated games/MMOs. Easily reverted if true. Evidence? Andrewa (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be good if you replied to the comments of two days ago, when I first suggested that they appear to be the same game. If this is not true, and if both are encyclopedic, then by all means let's reinstate the two articles.

(Or for that matter if you had replied to the same question when asked more than two weeks previously [3]. Andrewa (talk) 16:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC))

Please present some verifiable material, and we can take it from there. Andrewa (talk) 10:52, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

To elaborate: It seems that you are claiming that there are two different MMOs, both called Transformers Universe, is that correct? Andrewa (talk) 10:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

See also the latest edit from another user (the same one who moved the article to the US version title and back again) with the summary Added information from Transformers: Universe (MMO) to Transformers Online, as now the article is talking about the US version of the game. I'm more and more feeling we should have two (or more) sections in one article, describing these different versions of Transformers Universe (game). Andrewa (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

A little recap

This conversation started when I responded to Pliigi's request to move

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transformers_Online&oldid=430969957

to the undisambiguated name Transformers Universe.

This article was at the time of the move request about two browser-based massively multiplayer online games, and already had a slightly tangled history, having originally [4] been about an upcoming browser-based sci-fi themed MMORPG about which Very little is known. It had subsequently been moved by another editor to Transformers Online (American Version) [5] with the comment There are 2 versions of the game, and back [6] by the same editor.

While the move was still under discussion, Pliigi created

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transformers_Universe_(MMO)&oldid=432613997

and again note that Very little is known about the game.

Whether these are one game or two or three implementations of one game or two or three games seems conjecture at this stage, and may always be a matter of splitting hairs. But I think we can reasonably conclude that Pliigi wishes these articles, however many, to be known by some variant of Transformers Universe, not Transformers Online, and there seems no disagreement with that at least.

Questions:

• How many articles? Is there really enough material for more than one article about similarly themed MMOs about which very little is known? There may be.

• How to disambiguate them? I think that Transformers Universe undisambiguated is a lost cause for any of them, and it appears that both Transformers Universe (MMO) and Transformers Universe (game) may themselves both still be ambiguous (if we are to have more than one article).

The replies to these questions possibly belong at #Alternative proposal above, but as Pliigi has now created a separate section outside of the move discussion I thought it neatest to do this little synopsis here. I hope it helps.

Pliigi, I have deleted nothing. It's all easily recoverable from the history and anyone can do it, but please discuss it here first. It's tangled enough already, and I apologise if I've tangled it more.

Hang in there! Andrewa (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Asian Game

Can we please move the text concerning the Asian game to another article since it has absolutely no connection to Transformers Universe? Pliigi (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd say just go for it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright. Moved the content to Transformers Online. Pliigi (talk) 04:12, 26 June 2011 (UTC)