Talk:Tobia Lionelli

Name

The subject of this article appears to have never actually used the name Janez Svetokriški (apparently simply copied from the Slovene WP article in 2009). Lionelli's monastic name Joannes Baptiſta à S. Cruce Vippacenſi (ablative Joanne ...) is clearly visible here and here. Judging from Google Books, the name Janez Svetokriški appears to be an artificially Slovenized neologism first used in 1891. It appears that he never "took the name Janez Svetokriški" (as the article stated). It appears that Slovenization efforts in the 1890s also experimented with using the more Slavic form Ivan in 1891 and 1893, before today's standard Slovenian form Janez was settled on. The Marko Juvan source here is an authoritative English source published by a prominent Slovene scholar and appears to be a sufficient basis along with 134 other hits to rename the article to Tobia Lionelli (without -j-). For other Slovenized names, compare the WP articles on Fritz Pregl (not titled under the Slovenized form Friderik Pregl), Johann Puch (not Janez Puh), Sigmund Zois (not Žiga Zois), etc. Doremo (talk) 13:07, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Should it be spelled Ioannes or Joannes? Juvan and Snoj spell it Ioannes.[1] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 11:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I would simply use the J (as it appears printed in the primary sources). There's one school of thought that claims that "real Latin" doesn't distinguish j and i (although they're happy to distinguish v and u), but this is an argument I prefer to avoid (people can get heated up about it). Doremo (talk) 12:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a difference between the Classical (ancient) Latin and the Vulgar (vernacular) Latin of later periods. In this case, v and j would be ok. I've decided to nonetheless correct the name to Ioannes, because this spelling is the most common in secondary sources (besides Snoj and Juvan, also e.g. Makarovič etc.)[2] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Slovenian practice does prefer i. Usage in what seem to be English texts dealing with Latin is less clear. Doremo (talk) 14:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the comparison is not specific for this preacher. At least Juvan is in English (and there is another source by Bernik in German using Ioannes). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 14:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Significance

I've removed the following sentence, which may be readded with an appropriate source: "His texts provide excellent insight in the linguistic situation of Slovene around the end of the 17th century, as well as the wider cultural position of Slovenes and the Slovene culture of the late Baroque period." In any case, this is not Late Baroque but High (zreli) Baroque in the territory of nowadays Slovenia. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)