Talk:Timișoara Fortress

Copy edit

Hi all. As requested at GOCE I will be copy editing this article over the next few days. It looks a fine and thorough article on a first skim. I will be making bold edits where I feel necessary, and relying on you to tell me where I go wrong. So if you disagree with any of my edits, or just don't understand why I have made them, please feel free to flag this up here. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I'll be reviewing and help when needed. Codrin.B (talk) 07:23, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

And I thank you and I look forward with much interest.

As the label above shows, this is a translated article. The focus on this article will also mobilize other volunteers to translate other articles. Of course, any improvement / completion will also be taken in the original article. --Turbojet (talk) 10:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and contributions. I should perhaps mention that I usually work by giving an article several 'passes'. So, the fact that I have recently marked "Early fortresses" as copy edited does not mean that I think that it is finished. I will be re-looking at it at least once, and probably twice, more. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Images

IMO there are (far) too many images in this article, so I intend to thin them out. I aim to start with the three "Inaccurate images of Ottoman Fortress". I am not sure what the point is of including inaccurate images. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The role of this fortress has always been a major military one. After the Ottoman capture, for 166 years Europeans virtually no longer had access to the city. Incorrect images show the lack of information, the size of the military secret, and the strategic importance of the fortress. Timișoara was not a commercial center, well known to the public. The Ottomans admitted contacts with Europeans only in Belgrade, not in Timișoara. With Ottendorf it was a misunderstanding about where they had to meet the Ottomans during a diplomatic mission and, to his luck, he was left to wait for an answer. Ottendorf's veduta is practically an espionage of those times. If you think this is the case, I can write a paragraph (sources exist) describing the situation.

Do what you want with the images. You can replace them with a mention that they can be seen at Commons.

Thank you very much for your effort. --Turbojet (talk) 18:18, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Turbojet. I am just another editor. Feel free to change anything you don't like. Your explanation above of the lack of (western) European access is interesting and is not currently in the article. If you can source it can I recommend that you add it. Note that of the four images labelled as inaccurate I have left the one with the fullest explanation.

I hope that most editors will agree that the article is over-imaged. If so then some hard decisions need to be made about which to remove. I don't insist that my decisions are the "correct" ones, but hopefully they are a start to a discussion. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Gog the Mild. Please do not excuse yourself. :) You are entitled to do what you think is good. Maybe the talks will clarify what to do.

Images should be discussed about each one separately. For example, those who shows unfulfilled fortified projects each illustrate another idea of fortification. If an image can be replaced with a link, very well, but I know very little about Wikipedia in English. If necessary, some of the proposals may be dropped. We can also talk about other images. --Turbojet (talk) 16:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I've commented several images with explanations. You can decide. --Turbojet (talk) 06:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

IMO you have made a good job of thinning the images. In particular I like the way Ottendorf's veduta and Perrette's map are explained. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Mosques

IMO the information on the Ottoman period mosques is too detailed for an article on Timișoara Fortress. So I have hidden (but not deleted) it. It is good material so I would recommend that it is moved to a new article: "Ottoman period mosques in Timișoara" or similar. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the moving the detailed text about the mosques în the proposed article. The article may contain only a legend describing the items in Ottendorf's veduta. But the description of this veduta is essential because it is the only correct one in the epoch, and depict the towers and the castle, which are part of the fortifications. In addition to the fortifications, I agree with a simplification such as "letters a–h indicate mosques minarets". --Turbojet (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I removed the text about mosques and will write the complementary article. --Turbojet (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Translation

Under Demolition is written "that covered the cost for the edification of the military buildings agreed as compensation". Can someone tell me what "edification" is trying to say here? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

These were some barracks that were built in the north of the city, on the place of walls. Poor "compensation"! :) But the military understood that they could not get anything else, it was a governmental decision. I'll fill in, but I need to review the sources. --Turbojet (talk) 16:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned the buildings. The source is the same. --Turbojet (talk) 10:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Good work. Thank you. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Timișoara?

Why use the Rumanian name? In the 600 years the fortress was standing the city was never called that for a moment, it was Temesvár. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.79.93.52 (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

The English name is Timișoara fortress, the Hungarian name may be mentioned in the lead or the article where it is relevant.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC))

@185.79.93.52: Please propose the name in Hungarian and Turkish. The name in German according to the Habsburg plans is Festung Temeswar.

Why not translate the article into Hungarian? --Turbojet (talk) 06:00, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Added Hungarian, Turkish and German names of the fortress. --Turbojet (talk) 09:26, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The name used reflects the current country/location name "Timișoara" where the historical monument resides (Romania) and the English name "Fortress" in books/literature/travel guides, since this is the English Wikipedia. Hence it is "Timișoara Fortress". The same logic applies to Chernivtsi which is now in Ukraine, and historically was "Cernăuţi" in Romanian. The locality names follow the same convention. The important thing is to mention the alternative names, of all the previous owners: Latin: Castrum Temesiensis, Castrum Temesvariensis, Hungarian: Temesvári vár, Turkish: Temeşvar Kalesi, German: Festung Temeswar. Please see WP:NAME, WP:UE, WP:PLACE, WP:MODERNPLACENAME. BTW, it's "Romanian" not "Rumanian". Codrin.B (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

The name of the fortress

The fortress was owned by:

• Hungarians, between 1308–1552 and 1867–1892, 269 years;
• Ottomans, between 1552–1716, 164 years;
• Habsburgs, between 1716–1867, 151 years.

But it is true that throughout all this time the Hungarians have named the city in their own language, the Ottomans in their own and the Austrians in their own. --Turbojet (talk) 08:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Timișoara Fortress/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 09:59, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 09:59, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

• No DABs, external links OK
• File:Plan cetate Timisoara 1808 a.jpg, File:Siege of Temesvár, 1552 (2).jpg, File:Siege of Temesvár, 1552 (3).jpg, File:Siege of Temesvár, 1552.jpg, File:After the capture of Temesvár, 1552.jpg, File:Cetatea Timisoara 1602 (cropped).jpg, File:Ottendorf - Timisoara otomana veduta.jpg, File:Siege of Timisoara 1716.jpg, File:Original Plan von Temeswar.jpg, File:Plan no 3 Festung Temeswar.jpg, File:Plan von der Granitz Festung Temeswar.jpg, File:Georg Rukavina.jpg, File:Vécsey Károly Szamossy.jpg and File:Fn wagner-tm.jpg need US PD tags
• File:Temesvár város térképe, Trianon előtt.jpg appears to be scanned from a book and is not the work of the uploader. Contact them and find out where they scanned it from and change the summary accordingly. And be sure to add a US PD tag.
• Change the tag to Anonymous-EU and PD-1923 for File:Cetatea Timisoara 1906.jpg and File:Fortification of Timisoara 3.jpg More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Updated copyright tags. --Turbojet (talk) 19:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

• stone fortress, the Angevin fortress Don't italicize and change the first "fortress" to "fortification".
• Too many uses of the word "fortress" in close proximity throughout the 2nd paragraph of the lede. Use some synonyms like fortification, fort, castle, etc. to keep things fresh for the reader.
• The progress of artillery Unclear. Try "The increasing power of artillery rendered the walls ineffective by the end of the 19th century."
• However, Castrum Temesiensis It is not clear how this relates to the preceding sentence.
• What is a clay fortress? Do you mean like Earthworks (fortification)?
• Down to Hunyadi Fortress, more later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Hope I have improved the text style.

It is difficult to find substitutes for "fortress". The subject contained a castle surrounded by walls and next to it a separate residential area also surrounded by its walls. It was practically a fortified city, much larger than, for example, the Corvin Castle or a fort. But maybe I do not master terminology well, because by "fort" I only understand a military area designed to defend something. --Turbojet (talk) 08:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• county executive of Timiș What do you mean by this?
• The long list of fortresses at the beginning of the Ottoman siege section is too long. List only the most important ones and maybe those that held out against the Ottomans.
• I've done a lot of editing in the interest of saving time. Down to reconstruction.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)