Talk:Theodore Paleologus/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 09:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Will review over the following days. Constantine ✍ 09:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• Did some copyedits, feel free to revert them if you disagree.
• Given that he was born in Italy over a century after the fall of Byzantium, and is routinely called "Italian" in the article, I would eschew adding his Greek name, and the form "Palaiologos" in the lede, unless he actually used them himself. BTW, the same comment goes for the articles on the rest of his family.

Makes sense. I believed the Greek forms might have been of interest but I see what you're saying. They've been removed from his article and from the other Pesaro Paleologi. Same goes for "Palaiologos". Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• making their descent from the emperors plausible, but somewhat uncertain this smells of an opinion by Hall, I would recommend quoting and directly attributing it to Hall, just to be exact.

Yes, this is Hall's opinion. I wanted to keep the discussion on his descent relatively short here and in the other articles on his family members (because genealogical discussion can easily get boring) so most of the stuff on his family's descent (and opinions on it by various people) is in the main Paleologus of Pesaro article. I've added a quote from Hall and made clear that this is his opinion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• In 1578, the three found themselves embroiled in a scandal, as they were convicted for the attempted murder of Leone Ramusciatti, a man who was also originally of Greek descent. Leonidas, Scipione and Theodore had failed to kill the man and in an attempt to avoid arrest, they barricaded themselves in a church. remove the "originally", and I'd suggest altering the second phrase (since the 'attempted murder' alreayd makes clear they failed) to something like 'After failing to kill him, in an attempt to...'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• The link to Italian lira is obviously not correct, as it refers to a relatively modern currency. It is likely the Luccan pound, but if you can't find the exact denomination, you can replace it with "pounds" and link to pound (currency).

Replaced with "pounds" and linked to pound (currency). Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• ...eventually died of natural causes just to satisfy readers' curiosity, could you add the year of his death?

Added. He died in 1657, outliving all of the people that were after him (!). Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• The letter references an Italian murderer should "Italian murderer" perhaps be in quotes?

Probably, added quotes. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• After having served as a soldier in the Netherlands... this is a rather abrupt change of subject and focus. I recommend either prefacing it with an introductory sentence that at this time, Theodore met John Smith, or with a subheader making clear this is a new section about this friendship with John Smith.

Added an introductory sentence. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• helped Smith become an experienced warrior Hmmm, how exactly? Teaching him skill at arms is one thing, but becoming an 'experienced warrior' means actually going to fight wars for several years.

Yeah, changed so that it says that Thodore taught him skill at arms. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• perhaps through tales of the conflicts between his ancestors since this is clearly supposition by modern authors, please attribute it as such.

Removed this entirely and merged the next paragraph with this one (where quotes are provided from sources that say this). Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is a good solution, I was thinking of recommending this as well.

• John Smith (later the famous captain and explorer) perhaps add a few more details as to where he explored? I'd never heard of him before, and it would help explain what exactly his 'more famous ventures in the Americas', mentioned later on, were.

Changed to "later a famous captain and explorer in the Americas and added the major examples of his "famous ventures". Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• During their time in Lincolnshire, Theodore and Mary had further children...have died in infancy. I would recommend moving this before the section about John Smith, and beginning a new section on Theodore's marriage and family at While staying at Tattershall...

Did what I think you meant here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Villiers was allegedly an arrogant, corrupt and incompetent member of the nobility alleged by whom?

Looks like "allegedly" is wrong here; removed it and elaborated a bit on why he was widely hated. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• had seemingly been promised a rather generous employment this contradicts the assertion in the lede that he was actually employed by Villiers

Yes, the lede is incorrect; changed "was employed" to "was offered employment". Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• parliamentarists I think the correct term is 'Parliamentarians', with a capital P?

Yes, fixed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• first by the 20th-century Archimandrite Barnabas is there no more precise date or some additional info about this archimandrite? I'd also recommend changing this to "first in the late 20th century by archimandrite Barnabas".

Hall only writes that Barnabas died in 1995 and that he was a "revered figure", referred to by his followers as "of blessed memory". He (for whatever reason) doesn't provide a precise date for Barnabas's memoral service. I can't find much of him elsewhere. This site says that he was Welsh and returned to Wales (from somewhere?) in 1973 in an attempt to convert the country to Orthodox Christianity. He also apparently founded a parish around Chester. It's difficult tracking down a reliable source that has any info on him, though. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: Overall a really interesting read, covering his life in more detail than I'd supposed would be available for such a figure. I only found some minor issues here and there in the article, but will do another read after these are done, as well as a source spotcheck, before passing. Constantine ✍ 14:59, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Thank you for reviewing the article! I've responded to your points above. I was also surprised at how much info there was on Theodore; he is one of those really shady figures that are enjoyable to research. That he might have been a descendant of the Byzantine emperors, or at the very least that he genuinly appears to have believed it himself, is just the cherry on top. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: Great, will have a look at your changes ASAP. BTW, I did find something on Barnabas: [1]. Constantine ✍ 17:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Reading this, Barnabas does seem like an interesting person in his own right but I'm not sure what could (and should) be added to this article. His lifespan and/or some of his life history? Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: I'd say that something along the lines of "the Welsh-born archimandrite Barnabas (1915-1995)" would be enough. Just enough to identify him from other archimandrites of the same name. Constantine ✍ 20:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

PS the changes look good. Constantine ✍ 20:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: 👍👍 I've added on "welsh-born" and the lifespan to where Barnabas is first mentioned. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: OK, here are my final comments/questions:

• Do we know anything about his father? If not, then let's state this.

No, we know next to nothing about Camilio, added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• Documentation from Pesaro "Documentation" is a bit weird, IMO. "Documentation" could be a museum exhibit... Can you be more specific?

Changed to "contemporary records" which should be better. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• I would recommend adding a note that Nicol, for example, holds that "Theodore’s claim to be a descendant of Thomas Palaiologos [...] must be held unproven", before going on to write about Hall's opinion, for reasons of accuracy and balance of views.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

That's about it. I did a source spotcheck, as far as I was able (mostly in Nicol's works, I don't have access to Hall, who is the main source) but found no problems, and am confident that AGF is sufficient here. Constantine ✍ 14:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: I've addressed the new comments. Thanks for a thorough review! Yeah, without Hall's book the article wouldn't be nearly as long as it is. I tried to find a decent online copy but wasn't able to so this was the first time I actually bought a physical book for the explicit reason of using it as a source for articles. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: You are welcome, it was an enjoyable read. Happy to pass it now. Constantine ✍ 16:20, 5 August 2020 (UTC)