Talk:The World Factbook/Archive 1

Old stuff

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Another of its idiosyncrasies is that it is hosted on a secure server, accessible by https. Is this to discourage hackers? To block it from being accessed by people in certain countries? Whitehouse.gov, for example, isn't hosted on a secure server.

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There have been substantial changes to the World Fact Book since the last update. Many of the pages referenced in the article have been updated as of January 27, 2005. For example Tiawan now has it's own entry and many of the maps are .gif files not the high quality .jpg or .tif.

Looks like there needs to be considerable re-write about The World Fact book. I'm not up to doing this myself. Too many changes that are not covered in the main entry here.

--Wjbean 16:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The CIA World Fact Book has maps that are apparently public domain. Should we use these on Wikipedia as well as the text? We could put these on the Wikipedia server without too much trouble and load them from there. - TS

I wouldn't mind at all; the only reason I didn't post them already was that some of them are rather large; they go from just under 40k for some of the island countries to 238k for Indonesia and 279k for the world map. Even the small flags shown at the top of each country's main page are around 14k. Those are all .jpgs; I haven't yet tried saving them in different formats or at different compressions. But I do think it would be valuable to have them online.

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JPG is a totally inappropriate format for these; they would be of much higher quality and similar size as PNGs, but converting them from their present web form won't work: they'll just become bigger with the same low quality they have now. Once they've been though the JPG lossy conversion there's no way to get the lost data back. They need to be rescanned from a paper copy and re-encoded as PNG. I don't have a copy of the paper myself, nor do I know what it would cost, but I could do the scanning work if I got my hands on one. --Lee Daniel Crocker

Actually the ones on the CIA site now look fine, I think. Take a look to see if you agree; maybe they can just be converted to PNG and used as-is. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/indexgeo.html

Nope, they are still JPG and they look awful. Even the icons on the page are JPG--those webmasters really don't have a clue. Converting them to PNG from those JPGs will just make them even worse. They really need to be rescanned from a paper edition into PNG originals which will be clear and sharp and probably compress even better than the JPGs on the CIA's site. --LDC

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The CIA World Factbook contains uses non-standard country codes and currency codes. I think we should use the ISO standard ones, which are most common on the internet anyway. Thus the FIPS codes in the World factbook entries should be converted to ISO standard codes when wikifying the article. -- Simon J Kissane

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I don't know what you mean. Can you give an example?

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Please see article FIPS two-letter country codes. For example, BO maps to different countries in FIPS and ISO 3166 codings. -- The Anome

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Does this information belong in the ARTICLE:

"Actually, https://www.cia.gov/ says Federal law prohibits use of the words "Central Intelligence Agency," the initials "CIA," the seal of the Central Intelligence Agency, or any colorable imitation of such words, initials, or seal in connection with any merchandise, impersonation, solicitation, or commercial activity in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the Central Intelligence Agency. Given that we are willing to use the words "Central Intelligence Agency," it seems to me that we should be willing to use the seal, since the restrictions are the same."

It seems to me that it should be here in Talk. --Zoe

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Well, at any rate I've removed the speculation that we should be able to use the seal--I don't think anyone would argue that our use of the name will be "reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the Central Intelligence Agency." We write about everyone deserving an entry, and aren't much concerned whether they approve or not. We're an encyclopedia, and that's what encyclopedias do. Cheers, Koyaanis Qatsi, Saturday, July 6, 2002

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I'd be interested to hear ideas on how Wikipedia pages whose text derives almost entirely from the CIA WFB could incorporate updates or corrections they make. It strikes me there's danger when grabbing large external texts that it just becomes too much trouble to check these sources regularly, and then to amend Wikipedia's entry suitably (which by then may well have had several Wiki edits). Can anyone conceive automatic methods that might work? -- Laurence

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Copyright on CIA World Factbook?

Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump

I was going to Bartleby.com. They have a ton of books online. While browsing their copy of the CIA World Factbook, they had this following info:

TITLE: The World Factbook.
PUBLISHED: Washington, D.C.: Central Intelligence Agency, 2002. ISBN: 1-58734-113-1.
CITATION: The World Factbook. Washington, D.C.: Central Intelligence Agency, 2002; Bartleby.com, 2002. www.bartleby.com/151/. [Date of Printout].
ONLINE ED.: Published April 2003 by Bartleby.com; © Copyright Bartleby.com, Inc. (Terms of Use).

As you see below, it appears that Bartleby.com is claiming a copyright on the Factbook! Does this overide the CIA's declaration that the World Factbook is public domain?

-- hoshie

IANAL, but that's basically a collection copyright claimed on their particular published edition. It may or may not have any validity if you, say, copy text from their pages without keeping their unique and creative page formatting. It certainly is irrelevant for material copied straight off of the CIA's web site. --Brion 18:18 27 May 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. I just wish Bartleby.com would be clear on what they claim rights to... -- hoshie

Does Bartleby actually have rights to any of the stuff up there? Isn't almost all of it actually public domain stuff? john 08:46 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

AFAIK, Bartleby ether uses PD works or licenses them from copyright holders like everyone else. BTW, if I want the Factbook, I get it from the CIA. Bartleby has too much noise if you know what I mean... -- hoshie

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Editions of Factbook

• According to the Web site:
  • The hardcopy represents information as of Jan. 1st of the year on the cover.
  • Various firsts (well, the two listed since 1970) involving either medium have come in June, tho the first (hardcover, classified) edition was August of 1962.
• The article Wikipedia:Status of the porting of the CIA World Factbook noted the new year of the on-line edition
  • in December 2002 (2002 edition) and
  • between April and Aug of 2003 (2003 edition)
  • And as of today, in Feb 2004, it is still the 2003 edition that is on line at [1]

(Hence it sounds to me as if each edition of the online version applies until the middle of the following year, tho it gets updated throughout that edition's term.)

... and As of 2003 Links

No big deal, except that at least 6 articles on Cocos (Keeling) Islands use a pipe-hidden as of 2003 link, well-meaningly, in lines reading

Information from the CIA World Factbook, 2003 edition.

And we are months away from being able to turn them from 2003-edition references to 2004 ones.

These six are orphans, i think, and may be doomed. But whatever their future, there is no telling how many other as-of-linking pages like them are out there: only the "first" 500 as of 2003-linking pages can be displayed by What links here. Any in addtion to these six are lurking beyond that veil, also awaiting updating, and also acting as part of the crowd standing in the way of updating those even further down the list. In fact, there could be enuf of them to be, at sometime before June, the only thing keeping non-Factbook as of 2003 pages even further on in the list from being considered for updates.

I propose to create a redirect, in the article space, to CIA World Factbook 2003 edition. (I've already put this info at Wikipedia talk:Status of the porting of the CIA World Factbook as well.) It will serve an analogous purpose to as of 2003, without coming due 6 months before it can be acted upon. Those who watch this article should be aware of all this, IMO. --Jerzy 16:19, 2004 Feb 17 (UTC)

Try {{msg:2003}}. It's got a link to this main article, deals with the 'as of 2003' "what links to this" problem, and creates a page where we can easily track which articles have been tagged to the 2003 Factbook. It can also be updated for later versions of the Factbook. - Jonel 03:13, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

biased?!

Despite the fact that many websites use information and data from the "World Factbook", i have a tendency to believe that the data may be biased,since it's been devised and collected by US agency and researchers. What do you think about this? I am sure that there are more balanced factbooks about countries out ther(either websites or printed materials).Isn't Wikipedia all about bringing different perspectives--i.e. from South/Third World research institutes, as well? — Rageangainstthemashine 01:58, Jul 28, 2004

For the most part, the CIA factbook bases its information on material collected by other governments or international agencies- it's not like they collect literacy or life expectancy data of their own.

This is not so much a bias as an indication that the data is often not very consistent. — 24.28.163.121 15:05, Aug 13, 2004

-: Why would the West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza Strip BE included as Israeli land? The comment was posited as though it was a glaring miscalculation of the CIA not to list it as Israeli land. Odd H. Rap Brown

-: I think quite a few of the examples are in fact controversial. I don't see e.g. why they shouldn't include an entry on the European Union. No book like this can be published without taking a side on many controversial issues - a sign of good quality is to me the indication of the controverse. thamane

It's not "biased", because the work is meant to relate official U.S. government data on nations, regimes, and (especially) transnational conflicts. It's not MEANT to be unbiased or used as a primary source. As long as one understands this when using it, one should be all right. As noted above, the basic data (life expectancy, etc.) is based on the best data available internationally. It is really on transnational issues that one must be slightly wary of the Factbook. Then again, one must be equally wary of the Wikipedia for other reasons. Neither source should be used as a primary source in conducting research, but as a source of basic information they're both usually acceptable. Note that in the F.A.Q., the Factbook writes that "Territorial occupations/annexations not recognized by the United States Government are not shown on US Government maps." --Xinoph 18:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't just "assume" there is a bias...get a citation and add an section if it is that important to you Travis Cleveland 00:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

crediting source of information

Shouldn't any articles using information from the Factbook contain some sort of source information? There are many articles that do not. Is there an existing template that could be used, similar to say Template:bioguide? older≠wiser 15:15, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Answering my own question, there is Template:factbook which can be added by inserting {{factbook}} to an article and which currently consists of the following text: This article incorporates information from The World Factbook, which is in the public domain. older≠wiser 15:32, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

I see many references to the book (whether that was with that template I don't know, by the way). Maybe a warning should be given where the book is used as a source, considering Xinoph's remark in the above thread that the info is not meant to be unbiased. Se also my remark/question below about the International Court of Justice, whch had me scratching my head for a bit. Relying too much on this book can have very misleading results. DirkvdM 20:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

CIA/Diego Garcia link

On 24 March, User:Gregis17 deleted http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/5_cia-lies.html, a link critical of The World Factbook. I feel this is unfair because there are people who don't like the Factbook and it appears this guy linked is one of them. - Hoshie/Crat 23:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• The article seems more critical of the CIA, the British and American governments, and the military status of the island, rater than the World Factbook per se. I think the link is also heavily biased and does contain some falsehoods, therefore it is not an appropiate link here, and should be removed. Astrotrain 11:01, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

What are the falsehoods in Hoshie's link? Please name some of them. --romanm (talk) 16:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• There are a few falsehoods in the article:

- firstly the House of Lords can block non-finance bills for upto 3 years, and it is rare for the Commons to use the Parliament Act to override the Lords - the UK does have a constitution, although not a codified one - the UK House of Commons cannot vote to keep itself in power without elections, because the monarch can disolve Parliament at any time, and has the power to with-hold consent for any UK Act of Parliament - the court case in question ruled that it could not enforce the repatriation of the expelled citizens of BIOT.

The article does highlight the disgraceful treatment of these people. However in the UK, it is possible to expel people from their homes via complulsary purchase orders for example. I believe the court only sided with the islanders because they were removed from the entire island.

In any case, the article should not be linked from here because: - it only mentions the World Factbook briefly - the article is an attack on the US and UK govts, and the British constitution, which are not the subject of this article - if you feel it shoud be linked, maybe from the Diego Garcia or the BIOT page. However, it is basically an extreme and biased attack, and is not enlightening in any way. Astrotrain 10:19, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

You have me convinced, Astrotrain. I'm removing the link if I hasn't been removed already. BTW, the treatment of the Ilois/Chagossians was a huge disgrace, but that is a different matter for another day :) - Hoshie/Crat 07:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fonts

Can anyone tell me the font that the factbook uses for country names, mountain ranges, rivers and seas? I'm translating maps for the Welsh Wicipedia.

Thanks, --Adam7davies 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

International Court of Justice

While working on the Politics of the Netherlands article, I organised the list of international organisations the country is part of and noticed the International Court of Justice was not in it. Which I found odd, especially considering that the Netherlands is where it's located. I got the impression that the list was copied from the CIA world factbook, so I looked there, and indeed, there was the exact same list (see [2] under 'International organization participation').

My first reaction was "Ah, that will probably be because the USA doesn not recognise the Court." But then I noticed it is mentioned as an abbreviation under 'legal system'; "accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations." Do I misunderstand something here? Is there a logical reason not to mention the court under 'International organization participation'? For comparison, it does list the International Criminal Court there. It would also be interresting to know how this was dealt with in a version of the book from before the contorversy, when the USA still recognised the ICJ, which would be before 1984.

However this may be, it's an extra warning that one should be careful with using this book. The problem is that it appears to be so complete that one might think it is complete. So maybe a warning should be spread around about this, considerng how often the book is used as a source here. And it's often just a matter of copying and leaving it at that, thinking that's it. DirkvdM 20:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Intertemporal Comparison

I have a question about the CIA World Factbook that might pertain to this article. The issue is whether one can do an intertemporal comparison of national economies using the GDP section of the Factbook? One issue is that the Factbook is often irratic between years when it comes to national GDP. For example, in 1999 (from the 2000 factbook), the CIA listed the GDP of Russia (PPP) as being $620 billion; then in 2000 (from the 2001 factbook), it was listed as being $1.12 trillion, about 80% growth. Given that the Russian economy did not grow 80% in 2000 and the calculation is PPP, is it not true that the CIA must have changed the method that it used to calculate the statistic? In this case, does the CIA have estimates as to what it thought the Russian economy really was in 1999? If not, how do they explain the discrepancy? The official growth rate of Russia in 2000 was about 10%.

Of course, the issue is not limited only to Russia. If they changed the criteria in one case, they presumably did in other cases as well. In general, is it possible to do intertemporal comparison with factbook statistics such as the GDP PPP and per capita GDP PPP? I would appreciate especially if an employee who knows how the CIA factbook works sees this discussion. 18.251.5.250 11:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

House Style

I notice that the factbook's house style calls the bloke in charge of Libya "Qadhafi", and the head of Al-Qaeda "Bin Ladin" (in the entry for Afghanistan). There are many other slightly odd-looking spellings in the factbook. Are these World Factbook, CIA, US Government or UN standard spellings? I understand that Qadhafi in particular defies latinisation and is spelled in many different ways.

Think it is a house style peculiar to the Worldbook. --maru (talk) contribs 01:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Original research

The following paragraph has been removed by User:Spookfish for "non-pov/original research".

=== Focal points ===  	 
- 		 
- 	The maps of countries in the Factbook also appear to have strange anomalies. For example, the overall map of the United
Kingdom lists the town of [[Grangemouth]] in [[Scotland]], although it is only a small town (population 18,500) and in no way a 
major city (this is perhaps due to its status as a major centre of the oil industry in Scotland after [[Aberdeen]]. It is also part
 of the [[Falkirk]] urban area which, with a population of around 90,000 and with the larger [[Falkirk (council area)|Falkirk 
Council Area]] having a [[population density]] of 496/km², is one of the most populous and most densely inhabited urban centres 
after the conurbations of [[Greater Glasgow|greater]] [[Glasgow]] and [[Edinburgh]] and the cities of [[Dundee]] and Aberdeen. 
Although it would still be an anomaly to refer to this area as "Grangemouth" rather than "Falkirk", the principle [[burgh]] in the 
district). 	 
- 		 
- 	The map of Sweden at one time included [[Tärnaby]] with 500 inhabitants, a town basically unknown except for a few notable 
natives. ([https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/maps/sw-map.gif map]) 	 

- 		 
- 	The map of the United States contains [[Prudhoe Bay]], [[Alaska]], the only city noted in the state other than 
[[Anchorage]]. Despite being an oil field town with several thousand temporary workers at any given time, the town has a permanent 
population of only five people according to the [[2000]] [[census]]. 	 
- 		 
- 	Each government is described according to the American model, consisting of an executive, legislative and judicial branch. 
However in many countries the "executive" leader is a powerless figurehead, for example the [[Monarch of the United Kingdom]] and 
the [[President of Ireland]].

Is this really original research? It's not like it's a complicated theory or a particular criticism, only facts that have been noticed as strange. I think everyone would agree that while accurate, the Factbook is often idiosyncratic in its choices, and these are good examples. Right? UnHoly 06:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Categorizing things as "strange anomalies" borders on POV since it relies on your personal judgement of what is "strange". Selectively picking out a few things outside of their full context and then counter-arguing them with other points (in order to establish their "strangeness" as perceived by you) amounts to original research. You've basically setup a thesis that there's "strange anomalies" and then crafted points to back it up. That's original research and, though I'm not saying its not interesting, it's certainly not appropriate for an encyclopedic entry. Please consider removing it and maybe replacing it with a more balanced trivia section. Spookfish 00:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that country maps routinely represent villages? Almost all country maps will represent the capital and the major cities. I removed the word "strange", but I think the section should stay. As for the fact that the examples are selectively picked, well, yes, it's a selection of trivia; I think this correctly conveys the sense that it is not a unique case but a deliberate choice from the editors of the factbook. UnHoly 05:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just remember that while you might be absolutely right that it is unusual for mapmakers to put villages on such a high-level map, unless you have a verifiable source stating that it is unusual for mapmakers to put villages on such a high-level map, it is original research. Specificially, "it introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source" -- ShinmaWa^(talk) 18:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced stuff...

Here are a few unsourced things I have removed. Can anyone source them?

Although great care is given to representing the borders of countries factually, the choice of cities represented on the map seems sometimes idiosyncratic. For example, the overall map of the United Kingdom lists the town of Grangemouth in Scotland, although it is only a small town (population 18,500) and in no way a major city (this is perhaps due to its status as a major centre of the oil industry in Scotland after Aberdeen. It is also part of the Falkirk urban area which, with a population of around 90,000 and with the larger Falkirk Council Area having a population density of 496/km², is one of the most populous and most densely inhabited urban centres after the conurbations of greater Glasgow and Edinburgh and the cities of Dundee and Aberdeen. Although it would still be an anomaly to refer to this area as "Grangemouth" rather than "Falkirk", the principal burgh in the district).

The map of Sweden at one time included Tärnaby with 500 inhabitants, a town basically unknown except for a few notable natives.

From Oddities and controversies...

As an official publication of the United States government, the factbook is criticized by some for asserting official policy of the United States government as fact and only mentioning contrary positions in footnotes. The factbook highlights diplomatic disputes that are recognized by the United States, but some accuse the publication of ignoring or downplaying disputes that are not favored by the government's foreign policies.

Political...

Electoral regimes are depicted from a purely technical point of view without regard to usual (American) appreciation of the degree of liberty in any country. For example, the China pages lists "elections: president and vice president elected by the National People's Congress for five-year terms; elections last held 15-17 March 2003 (next to be held mid-March 2008)..." while the Canada page lists "elections: none; the monarchy is hereditary; governor general appointed by the monarch on the advice of the prime minister for a five-year term...". Also, each government is described according to the American model, consisting of an executive, legislative and judicial branch. However in many countries the "executive" leader is a powerless figurehead, for example the President of Ireland.

From 'House Style'......

Despite the aforementioned quirks and anomalies in the factbook, it remains a quite accurate source of geographical and political information used by a variety of sources outside the CIA.

- Thanks, Hoshie 11:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

data rollback

I have rolled back the number of entries in the WFB since that is the number I can source. I hope this is well. - Thanks, Hoshie 00:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"Fact" Book?

The only facts that this book contains are the names of the countries and where they are located. Everything is is politicized and not factual, especially in the area of history and demographics. Come on, it is put out by the CIA for crying out loud! The CIA is the most sinister branch of the government that is NOT bound by law. They more or less work on behalf of the most sinister and sneaky government in the world. Most people in th eUS don't believe the government, so why believe that even sneakier and low-down CIA "fact" book? Besides, how are they a SOURCE for all nation's business? The sources should be those nations first, but clearly each country listed on Wikipedia should have multiple sources, not just the CIA as the bible. To rely only on the CIA for this site almost makes me think it is run by the CIA!--71.235.94.254 05:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

You claim that "everyting is politicized and not factual". Could you please provide SPECIFIC examples of countries where the demographic or historical data in not accurate and provide the "accurate" info that you believe should be in its place.

Oh and please cite you more accurate sources. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 38.102.195.118 (talk) 13:12, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

The CIA is a perfectly acceptable source for information, as that is one of their primary goals - gathering intel. Please don't let your anti-american bias overwhelm your logic User 71.235.94.254. Travis Cleveland (talk) 12:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, CIA is as good source as KGB, or MI6. Not biased at any direction, but always maintaining strict neutrality. This Travis guy seems quite funny for me, actually :) If anybody questions any information from US government sources, you have to be anti-american :) Perhaps Travis' bias is overwhelming his logic? Woden (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Travis Cleveland, you are an idiot. The CIA is the executive branches hit squad that masquerades as an "intelligence" agency, and the "intel" they do gather is sub-par by all accounts. I'm an american and even I know this. Do a little research so you know what the hell your talking about. INO Exodus (talk) 23:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that there is little info out there on the accuracy of the World Fact Book. It is cited in many discussions of international economic data--for example, google "EU inflation rate" and every site uses the WFB as the original source. But only on the most recent 2008 update do they even have a separate entry for "European Union". The WFB doesn't cite it's own sources---hopefully they are better than the info on Iraq's WMD's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.33.115 (talk) 06:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I for one, do not greatly trust the Factbook. I don't know how many deliberate politically-driven inaccuracies it contains (although I'd be surprised if there were none), but there are certainly several errors. For example, the UK administrative divisions bit (admittedly quite complicated) contains at least 4 mistakes (e.g. "Ile of Wight") and inconsistencies. And that's for the UK, one of the USA's closest allies! Imagine how accurate the pages for N.Korea or Iran are... Bazonka (talk) 16:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Bazonka, I agree with ya on the WFB Factbook and reliability. While a good primer, I would not trust it as my only source for info, like I wouldn't trust any encyclopedia as my source. As for errors, there are many. For example, the Factbook has the Queen's Representative in the Cook Islands as the "UK Representative" [3]; this has not been corrected - even though I have told them of it. Besides errors, there are also some POV areas. For example, users on Albanian message boards have complained about the Kosovo entry: [4], [5] and this guy has complained about the British Indian Ocean Territory entry: [6]. In short, we should use lots of care and discretion with the Factbook as we do with the 1911EB. - Thanks, Hoshie 08:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

As with wikipedia it is a good first base source as long as the reader understands its nature--Rowen (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, am amused at the Factbook's claims on religion in Denmark. It doesn't list all the non-religious, but lumps them under the Evangelican-Lutheran Church. This information is easily checked, and I wonder if it's some sort of denial of atheism or irreligion on the CIA's part... --90.184.22.222 (talk) 19:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

You're easily amused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.123.76 (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Its a fact book seen through the googles of CIA, and for that reason you can bet your money it represents the same point of view and logic which led to the invasion of Iraq. Also, take a look at the history in middle/south America (from NON US sources!) to see how neutral they are....--Nabo0o (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

This is a dead discussion and as with every single source out there, the WFB represents the point of view of the authors, in this case, the United States of America. When one looks at sources that are not US sources, they are bound to have a slant that is different. It is truth by consensus, in this case the consensus of the CIA and the USA, and the USA recognizes Kosovo as a country, as such, an official publication of the United States will have the slant of the United States. If you looked at a publication of Serbia and their WFB, then of course it would not have a publication for Kosovo. A non US source will maintain the sliver of POV that it was generated from, without the shadow of a doubt. So what if one person complains, no one will ever satisfy everyone on the planet or everyone who looks at it. --Riotrocket8676 ^{You gotta problem with that?} 00:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, the 1911EB is 99 years old. The WFB never too far out of date, certainly not 99 years. We should just be chill and use discretion, as with basically every source. --Riotrocket8676 ^{You gotta problem with that?} 00:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. But please make it know that the CIA is not uncontroversial, and that it does not represent a point of view which is close to neutral. --Nabo0o (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Fakebook, that's what it is!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.125.178.11 (talk) 17:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Long section

The Oddities and controversies section seems rather long. Should it be shortened? RJFJR 15:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on it. Since my last edit, i've removed the Isle of Man and trimmed the Yugoslavia part a bit. - Thanks, Hoshie 00:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not add something about the strange definitions of political systems they have? No defintions are provided and their use seems somewhat arbitrary.

2007 edition

It should be noted that the 2007 version caved in to Gaullist fiction by deleting the French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and Réunion entries and putting their information in the "France" page. —71.215.217.161 02:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to work on this soon with a little less POV. - Thanks, Hoshie 03:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: I have added a few words about this in the article. - Thanks, Hoshie 12:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Link audit

I have just done a clearing of links. Here we go:

The GPO links are good, but I don't think it's good to have a dupe set of links to previous versions isn't helpful.

To me, these links:

• On stephansmap.org:
  The CIA World Factbook accessible by location and date range; covers the years 2001 -- 2006. All Factbook entries are tagged with "cia". Requires graphical browser with javascript.

The idea of integrating the Factbook into stephansmap.org was to provide a different way of reading the Factbook -- first by selecting region, then by selecting a time-frame. That's why I added the link to the wikipedia article. I still think it is an interesting presentation. (And not spam) I'll leave it to someone else to put the link back on the wikipedia page though. Stephanwehner

I took a second look at the link. You have done well with your projet. I feel this adds a new dimension to the article! It also beats reading a bunch of flat HTML pages. - Thanks, Hoshie 23:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• CIA World Factbook as Flash factbook site

seem to be Spam. They look interesting but they don't add to the article.

As for this link:

• Authorama 2000 CIA World Factbook as XHTML1.0 (easily readable, no images, device-independent)

We already have a "device friendly" that's current. Why do we need an older one?

- Thanks, Hoshie 23:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination

Passed. Congratulations. :) I can't think of many ways to improve the article itself--It's really good as it is. One thing that you should consider addressing is the redlinks. It's not part of the article itself and I'm not faulting you for that, but it doesn't look good when there's a number of redlinks for organizations for which there is no article. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 15:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

increase in number

This week the CIA added entries for Saint Barthelemy and Saint Martin. I have updated the figures in the article by two. The CIA itself hasn't noted this yet, so there is no source (outside the profiles themselves). I hope this is well.- Thanks, Hoshie 02:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been two weeks since the addition and there is no progress on the entries and no note on the front page. For the purposes of WP:V, I have rolled backed the numbers to where they were in January; that number has a source. - Thanks, Hoshie 06:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a note now for Saint Barthelemy and Saint Martin but also a few other changes Iles Eparses has been dropped and East Timor is now Timor-Leste-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 21:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

These have now been added, except for St.-Martin and St.-Barth, mainly due to the fact that their edition to the Factbook seems to be obvious. - Thanks, Hoshie 07:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

More info. I just checked the World entry and it gives the number I was expecting. I've used this to update the article.- Thanks, Hoshie 11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

HTTPS only access?

Since when is the Factbook https-only? Anyone know?

Even the Google cache info on it reflects HTTPS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mccabem (talk • contribs) 21:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

== this website stinks you sall be able to find facts on a pecific place!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.8.75 (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Self-reference

Many Internet sites, including Wikipedia, use information and images from the CIA World Factbook.

This is a self reference, and as such, should be removed. This would, however, detract from the article; so instead I believe the reference to Wikipedia should be replaced with a reference to another website. --Muna (talk) 04:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This has been removed. - Thanks, Hoshie 19:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I want Buy it

I m citizen of Estonia and i m in USA now. I leave in august 13. I want buy CIA World factbook. Can you help me(Say to me where i can buy it)? My email is Harri.Puskar@gmail.com. Sorry if i interupt discussion. I stay in North Carolina(in Garner-5 miles to Raleigh) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.163.108.9 (talk) 20:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

From the article:

“ The official printed version is sold at cost by the Government Printing Office and National Technical Information Service. ”

References

(The reference is here) Oxygen (believe) 02:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan description

The following appears in the article:

"The name "Republic of China" is not listed as Taiwan's "official name" under the "Government" section,[27] due to U.S. acknowledgement of Beijing's One-China policy according to which there is one China - the People's Republic of China - and Taiwan is a part of it."

The cite doesn't seem to support this statement, nor does US policy (which is to accept the "one China" policy without saying that the PRC is the legitimate gov't of all of China. Am I missing something?LedRush (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

world food shortage

Is the world population growing ata faster pace than food or grain yeilds can keep up with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.199.166 (talk) 18:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is the correct forum for that question, unless it was a claim either made or refuted by the fact book.LedRush (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Saudi Shia

The factbook doesn't acknowledge the existence of Shia Muslims in Saudi Arabia. Just awesome. --138.67.159.111 (talk) 22:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

WFB gives the population of Saudi Arabia as "100% Muslim". Your silly little complaint is bogus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.123.76 (talk) 14:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't that mean they don't accept the existence of sunni's in Saudi Arabia either? --Riotrocket8676 ^{You gotta problem with that?} 03:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Shias and Sunnis are both Muslims either way, so the "100% Muslim" conclusion is correct. Spartan198 (talk) 04:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No wonder W didn't know there were different kinds of Muslims. He was using the CIA Factbook! :) Rifter0x0000 (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Kidding aside, the original poster does have a point. Other countries (for instance Iraq) do have breakdowns in the number of Sunni vs Shia. And it's not strictly true that everyone in Saudi Arabia is Muslim. The factbook does say it is using an official figure, and it's obvious why the Saudi government would want to project that, but yes this does seem like another example of politics trumping facts. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

It January 2009 and the factbook has not been updated as of yet.

for those who visit the factbook,you know that it updated twice a month.Usually around the 5-10 of a month,and then towards the end of the month,usually 18-22 of a particular month.So far it has not been updated since Dec 18,2008(my 22nd birthday).We're almost Januray 9,2009 and the factbook has not been updated.It is time for the 2009 world factbook.Any comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.105.216 (talk) 01:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

swear word in heading

The third heading in this article has a swear word in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.145.39.162 (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Say what?

"which continues to regard Kosovo as its own territory, and other countries." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.106.132 (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

recent edit: print, "at cost", iphone

Hello all,

I've recently edited this article to update the year of the cover image. I have also cleared up the status. Instead of being "no longer available in a print edition", it appears that last year the CIA stopped printing the Factbook and handed it over the printing to the Gov't Printing Office (in fact, the both the GPO and NTIS have it in stock; see [7] and [8]). Because of this, I've changed a few pronouns. I have also removed the words "at cost" since we don't really know how the price is set. There was an iPhone link in the EL's. This has been removed as there are at last count, four different vendors offering the Factbook in the App Store. If we list one, we would have to list them all. Hope this helps. - Thanks, Hoshie 03:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

uik,hn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.114.141.194 (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Factual => Weasel Words and bad argument

Re: "...it can be argued the country has never been independent since there is an arguable legitimate succession of states, systems and entities from the Norman Conquest, 1066." It is arguable??? Either it is or it isn't! If foreign invasion constitutes a loss of independance then Britain has been occupied since Roman times albeit by successive invading groups and their legacy cultures. Simarly America remains non-independant because while the colonists revolted against their motherland the colonists decendants still remain in power. 118.208.53.97 (talk)

dead site ??

Hi

I just did a db check on a page and it is telling me that the CAI factbook , and the CIA site, are returning server not found messages

I cannot access the site locally either

Anyone know anything about this ?

thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 15:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Try this link. − Glenn L (talk) 05:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Cases not includes on "Disputes international"

Should there not be a section on that issue? As an example, the Netherlands do officially not have have a such problem. Never the less, President Hugo Chavez has questioned the Netherlands' authority over the ABC islands. Bit strange how the CIA has picked up the existance of a pulpmill in Fray Bentos, Uruguay. The CIA have even mentioned that the former Prince Hans Adam of FL, felt that he was to own what is 2 pc the size of the Czeck Republic. But if Hugo says something on certain islands, the Dutch still have disputes equivalent to "none". BTW Did'nt Britain have an obligation to say sorry for transporting nukes down to the South Atlantic? --82.134.28.194 (talk) 12:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Picture refresh problem ?

Brassys-WFB-cover.jpg shows a 2008 cover while the "current" cover in Wiki Commons is the 2010 one... could not find the reason why the new cover is not appearing (file link is OK). Can a wiki admin help ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.248.13 (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

There are some inconsistencies with the facts as presented in the CIA Factbook and other reliable sources of information. Three quite striking examples are:

• Geoscience Australia gives the area of Australia as 7 692 024 square km [9] whereas the CIA Factbook gives 7,682,300 sq km. The difference is greater than the area of Cyprus!
• The French Government gives the area of France as 543,965 sq km [10] whereas the CIA gives France 7,535 sq km more (551,500 sq km [11]). That's an extra area that is close to the size of Corsica!
• New Zealand Travel gives the area of New Zealand as 266,200 sq km [12] whereas the CIA Factbook gives 267,710 sq km [13]. That's a difference of more than 1,500 sq km.

Country	CIA Area	Local source	web address of local source	difference
Australia	7,682,300 sq km	7 692 024 sq km	http://www.ga.gov.au/education/geoscience-basics/dimensions/area-aus-states-territories.jsp	9,724 sq km
Metropolitan France	551,500 sq km	543,965 sq km	http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/espaces_dedies.php3?id_rubrique=159	7,535 sq km
New Zealand	267,710 sq km	266,200 sq km	http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/key-facts/key-facts-natural-environment.cfm	1,510 sq km

Other inconsistencies are less significant, but curious:

• The Fiji Government gives the total land area as 18,333 sq km [14] whereas the CIA Factbook gives the land area as 18,274 sq km [15].
• The Irish Republic gives the area as 70,282 sq km [16] whereas the CIA Factbook gives its area as 70,273 sq km [17]
• The Swiss Government gives the area of Switzerland as 41,285 sq km [18] while the CIA figure is 41,277 sq km [19].
• The Netherlands Government gives the area of the Netherlands as 41,526 sq km; [20] the CIA gives them 41,543 sq km, [21] 17 sq km more.

In tabular form:

Country	CIA Area	Local source	web address of local source	difference
Fiji	18,274 sq km	18,333 sq km	http://www.fiji.gov.fj/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=645&Itemid=196	59 sq km
Irish Republic	70,273 sq km	70,282 sq km	http://www.gov.ie/en/essays/geography.html	9 sq km
Switzerland	41,277 sq km	41,285 sq km	http://www.swissworld.org/en/geography/swiss_geography/facts_and_figures/	8 sq km
Netherlands	41,543 sq km	41,526 sq km	http://www.minbuza.nl/en/You_and_the_Netherlands/About_the_Netherlands	17 sq km

These relatively small differences suggest that the CIA information may not be the most up-to-date. Michael Glass (talk) 01:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC) However, in other cases, for instance, Canada, Denmark, Belgium and South Africa, the figures are the same. Michael Glass (talk) 07:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

7,692,024/7,682,300 = 0.12% difference. That's pretty good. The only thing that citing Cyprus points out is how big the relative difference between the two countries is, that a miniscule error in the calculation of Australia's size is larger than it. 543,965/551,500 = 1.38%. Quite a bit larger, but not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Again, the only thing that citing a small piece of land does is emphasize the relative difference in size. 267,710/266,200 = 0.56% - not quite as good as Australia's, but quite close nonetheless.

I really don't see what your point here is. It's impossible to get a 100% correct estimation of the size of a country. For one thing, estimating the area of a country involves estimating the size and position of its borders. Borders based on coastlines and any natural features like rivers have fractal properties, and are thus are subject to the coastline paradox. This means the final total length changes depending on what feature size you choose to measure with. A smaller one will produce a longer length, a larger feature size a shorter one. There is no right or wrong feature size, you have to pick one and stick with it. And once you arrive at these different, equally valid outlines, the measured area that they can be said to enclose will also be different, and equally valid. The difference is small enough that its safe to assume that they are the result of legitimate variances in equally valid but different methods of measurement, like this, and not simply gross mismanagement on the side of one party (assumed to be the CIA by you).108.131.78.178 (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume those other sources are more accurate. In truth, differences are common in general, and you'll find disagreements among sources from any one country. Saros136 (talk) 07:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Not when the information is drawn from government websites. I would expect that the French Government would know the size of their country. I would also reckon that Geoscience Australia would know their job. Michael Glass (talk) 09:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC) NB I have added information and rearranged the material above after Saros136 made his comment. Michael Glass (talk) 09:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Why would you assume that?108.131.78.178 (talk) 10:31, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't find the part of the FAQ I had read specifically on area, but it said the Factbook uses many sources, and use the one judged to be the most reliable. They shouldn't be criticized just because they don't always think the governments give the best figures. Saros136 (talk) 15:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

In some cases, there could be differences over what lands or territories count. Saros136 (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't apply to any of the examples that I have supplied above. There are no border disputes that would have an impact on the size of France, Australia or New Zealand or of any of the other countries that I have noted. Could you suggest any reason that would make us give more credence to the CIA Factbook than to Geoscience, Australia on the area of Australia? Could you suggest any reason that would make the French Government underestimate the size of their country by an area almost as large as the island of Corsica? If there are inconsistencies in some figures but not in others from the CIA Factbook, can you suggest any reason that might explain this? Michael Glass (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Factual

This section needs to be discussed, it quotes two incidents of irregularities of figures given in CIA Fact book. One is a difference of settlers in Israel and the other a history lesson on the founding of the UK. These seem to be POV and really don't need to be listed. Please post your thoughts, as I am prepared to discuss this before removal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob805 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC) Jacob805 (talk) 08:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the section on the British Government could be rewritten to make it more neutral and factual in tone. The section on the number of settlers in Israel is more important. The stinging criticism of Chuck Holmes, foreign director of the US National Public Radio is worth recording. However, I think the article would benefit from another independent and authoritative estimate of the numbers. For example, the number given by the State Department is 250,000 Jews in the West Bank and an additional 180,000 in East Jerusalem [22]. At the moment the CIA Factbook says that the population figures for the West Bank are being reviewed, [23].

In all, I believe that the wording could be examined and revised, but I don't think that there is anything wrong in principle, about criticising the accuracy of the CIA Factbook. Michael Glass (talk) 13:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I am in favor of trimming down or deleting any POV/OR stuff about the UK, Fiji, and Australia and keeping the bit about the number of Jews in the occupied territories since it caused NPR to issue a retraction. - Thanks, Hoshie 08:09, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I do not have any OR/POV problem with the UK or the Fiji and Australia areas part. But I object to the area criticism, because disagreements between sources are common. Different parts of the same governments even give different numbers at times. In fact, the Fiji page itself gives two different numbers. Of course in some cases the Factbook will make clear-cut mistakes, but so does every non-fiction book. Saros136 (talk) 03:11, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Territorial issues and controversies

I noticed the Factbook name change in name from East Timor to Timor-Leste is under "Territorial Issues and Controversies". I suspect the entry should be deleted from the "controversies" section as there appears to be no issue about the country name. The full country name is "Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste", commonly translated into English as East Timor. Was/is, there any issue or controversy? Aussiejohn (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC).

Timor-Lests paragraph removed in the absence of any reason why it should be kept. Aussiejohn (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The real old versions

Dies anyone know if it the version publihed before about 1980 are available online, perhaps even the then secret Version published during the sixties?--Antemister (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2011 (UTC) Here[24]--Antemister (talk) 14:36, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The size of the United States

The size of the United States is stated as:

9372610km² (1989-1996) 9629091km² (1997-2003) 9631418km² (2004-2006) 9826630km² (2007-2011)

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.87.154 (talk) 13:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

GAR

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:The World Factbook/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article contains dead links and unaddressed citation needed tags, thus failing criteria 2b. The article also relies heavily on lists when prose might be more appropriate, especially the "Territorial issues and controversies" section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Result: Delist - It's been a week. There doesn't appear to be much interest in improving the article.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

→5.237.82.142 (talk) 18:13, 1 November 2014 (UTC)hi how are you >

Update frequency

The article says WFB is updated weekly, but it doesn't seem to have been updated since June 2014. — Kpalion^(talk) 17:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Spam?

"riek machar teny president 13/06/2015." at the Infobox, seems like spam for me. please delete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.130.89.98 (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Done. --Xakos (talk) 17:23, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

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== Footnote seemingly inaccurate