Talk:Zeno of Citium

Sources

The issue I've come across though in improving the page is finding good sources to cite, I'd imagine many others have had similar issues. I've been studying Stoic philosophy for a while, and I've had a hell of a time finding a lot of writings. I've definitely read more of Stoics, than direct translation or copy of what they said/wrote. I would think for someone said to be celebrated and prolific like Zeno of Citium, that more would have survived. Maybe it's out there, but just more esoteric than I realized. Xenogis (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Phoenician descent

Hi, amended the sentence as per Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Thank you 23x2 _φ 10:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The quote from Diogenes anecdote "Lives of Eminent Philosophers" of Crates saying to Zeno "Why run away, my little Phoenician?", can not be used as a source to come to a conclusion that Zeno was Phoenician. It is original research because Diogenes does not make that statement. Diogenes does not say "Zeno was Phoenician" 23x2 _φ 10:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Good morning, if Diogenes doesn't say that in his Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, this history published by Lorenzo Barone di Pianura Crasso in 1678 cited the following Latin verses that Laertius dedicated to Zeno: Urbem qui flavi ad Acragantis amici / Incolites magnam, res curatis honesta, / Salvete: immortalis ego convertos apud vos / Vipar est, Deus, tali me dignor honore, / Formosis vinctus victis roseisque corollis. / Queis quando egregias venias comitatus ad Urbes / Mulieribus, maribusque, cohors, comitatesque sequentur / Innumeri, ad lucrum quos ardens semita ducit, / Quique prophetiam exercent, qui discere morbi / Omnigeni cura cupiunt, artesque salubres. I apologize, but I have some problems totranslate it intoEnglish. However, in the prior section the author says Zeno engaged himself to be believed to an esteemed and perfect magician. And that concerns the sentence put in bold character.

The relation between Greeks and Jews is very ancient and it is also mentioned by Acts 4,36, talking about Barnabas, who is described as a "Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of [b]Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus". The Holy Bible is the main source about the history of Israel.

The Semitic origin had been studied by the German philologian Max Pohlenz (1872-1962) who, in his Die Stoa: Geschichte einer geistigen Bewegung, pointed out that "Zeno was certainly, and Chrysippus probably, of Semitic origin" (cf. JSTOR 265746). Therefore, there exist an archivistic and a more recent academic source that document Zeno and Chrisippus' Jewish origin. Also Clitomachus (philosopher) (187/6–110/9 BC) was of Semitic origin (source: treccani.it), in addition to what is suggested by the name of Iambulus. Without citing Diogense Laertius, the studies of Max Pohlenz can be sourced in the article. I apologize for the not idiomatic English, but it seems to be at least understandable. I hope so. Otherwise, I apologize again in respect of the points that remain unclear. Regards, Theologian81sp

I agree with edits but please bear in mind that the distinction between Greeks and "Semites" was largely linguistic, not genetic, as they used to think during that period of time. The populations were not too different (Eastern Mediterraneans), languages were. Ancient Greeks and Phoenicians/Western Canaanites share many subclades. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Syrian Zeno?

Recently the claim has been added that Zeno was Syrian, sourced from a couple of encyclopedia articles that themselves do not source the claim. To the best of my knowledge, this claim is not supported by any ancient source and is indeed contradicted by what's in Zeno's biography provided by Diogenes Laertius, which is where most of our information comes from about Zeno. It seems to me that we should remove the claim from the article, with perhaps a footnote noting the issue. Teishin (talk) 15:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. This makes sense to refer to only original sources. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I've added a note about the discrepancy. Tariq afflaq, please address further concerns here. Teishin (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica is almost 250 years old, I don’t think you’re so !! It literally says : the stoic system was created by a Syrian Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments about my age are not relevant here. As noted, Britannica does not source this claim. The claim is contradicted by data we have in our primary source, which dates from around 300 CE. The claim from this tertiary source should be disregarded. Teishin (talk) 18:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica is a reliable source per WP:RS. Of course it may be in error, but you can't assume that it is just because you know of no ancient source which supports it's assertion. What we need here our modern scholarly sources which support or refute such claims. Paul August ☎ 18:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

It is well attested in the literaure that he is Phoenician. BTW, Britannica is obsolete for this and is not a source here. Also see Bevan. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 19:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Zeno could be Syrian and Phoenician at the same time just like papinian a phoenician and a native of Emesa Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

It couldn't be like that at all, as we know Zeno was from Citium.Teishin (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is a simple sample of modern scholarship. [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk • contribs) 19:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Tariq afflaq appears to be ideologically motivated. All of their contribs are associated with Syrian nationality/ethnicity claims. Note also that they've included this same error about Zeno on Syrians and they've introduced the exact same error on Porphyry (philosopher). I agree with PopulationGeneticsLevant note on their latest revert that it is likely that administrative action will be required. Teishin (talk) 19:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I’m not denying the fact that Zeno of citium is Phoenician I’m just adding the term Syrian this is what a lot of reliable sources him Tariq afflaq (talk) 21:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Label him* Tariq afflaq (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

teishin keeps reverting my reliable changes and just delete it without explaining, I think you have a personal problem with Syria Tariq afflaq (talk) 22:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

As promised, administrative action has been requested at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tariq_afflaq_reported_by_User:Teishin_(Result:_) Teishin (talk) 22:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You just want to neglect all of the reliable sources I’ve been given you!!! Britannica is 250 years old and one of Google’s most reliable sources and as I’ve said I didn’t say he’s not Phoenician but rather A Syrian and Phoenician Tariq afflaq (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Do you have other reliable sources besides Britannica? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our own article says that nearly all of our biographical details about Zeno come from Diogenes Laertius. Britannica is obviously in error here. This is, of course, why there is Wikipedia, because there's too much information for companies like Britannica to keep up with and get accurate. Teishin (talk) 14:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our articles cannot be used as reliable sources. Why can't Zeno be both Syrian and Phoenician? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our job is to be concerned with what this article says. I am pointing out what this article says, in the Talk page about this article. Teishin (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes I have this source states that he was a hellenized Syrian philosopher https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/stoics , I don’t see a problem with being Syrian and Phoenician at the same time, Phoenicia was incorporated into Syria after the Roman invasion of the levant, in fact papinian the Roman jurist was a Phoenician and a native of Emesa in Syria so i see it very normal, I’m not saying he’s not Phoenician I’m just added the term Syrian Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I’ve* Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I would like to add: in the book « Religion and Identity in Porphyry of Tyre: The Limits of Hellenism in Late Antiquity » Book by Aaron P. Johnson, it states that Pythagoras may be a Syrian from Tyre, and Tyre in phoenicia, so what’s the problem with bending both? Read here please https://books.google.ae/books?id=mM7N_v0xcmQC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA271#v=onepage&q=Pythagoras%20was%20a%20Syrian&f=false Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the linguistic mistakes I keep doing, it’s the auto corrector Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Another minor factor that could be added is that phoenicia contained some Cities in modern day Syrian such as Ugarit, Arwad, Tartus, Latakia and Amrit so this could be factored in I think so Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica cannot be in error, it was created in 1768, it’s not a grammatical nor punctuational mistake, there is no resemblance between the words Phoenician and Syrian to make such a big mistake, the claims that a 250 years old encyclopedia made a mistake are totally unsubstantiated. Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica has many errors. Our editors uncover these often https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Errors_in_the_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica_that_have_been_corrected_in_Wikipedia. Now we have a new one to add to the list. Teishin (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica is a reliable source per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS

Encyclopedia.com THE WORLD’S #1 ONLINE ENCYCLOPEDIA

Search over 200 individual encyclopedias and reference books from the worlds most trusted publishers. It says: Zeno was a Hellenized Syrian who came from Citium, a city in Cyprus. His successor as head of the school was Cleanthes who came from Assos in the Troad, check the The Cosmopolitan Nature of Stoicism part, https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/stoics

Tariq afflaq (talk) 20:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

And again, phoenician weren’t from Latin America, they’re from the levant region, Syria, lebanon, Israel, Palestine and Jordan.

Add that  no one knows whether the Phoenicians had a stable set of genetic categories, as they were a boating people whose ships contained mainly males. They picked up women in many different places. Further, it's not known where they came from before they established Tyre, but it would be highly unusual for a group of boating people not to have another home - where they built their boats, as well as acquired some experience in founding cities, before just popping up and building Tyre. Tariq afflaq (talk) 20:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

PhoenicianS weren’t* Tariq afflaq (talk) 20:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Another book talks about Zeno, state that he’s Syrian. <iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border:0px" src="https://books.google.ae/books?id=kQBbDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA161&dq=%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%82%D9%8A%20%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%8A&pg=PA161&output=embed" width=500 height=500></iframe> Tariq afflaq (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Tariq afflaq has been blocked for 48 hours due to edit warring and failing to gain consensus on a major change. Teishin (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

The Suda confirms Diogenes Laertius' biography that Zeno was a Phoencian, not a Syrian. I've added this to the article. Teishin (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

The note in the lede says:

"Some tertiary sources ascribe Syrian ethnicity to Zeno, e.g., Britannica and Encyclopedia.com without providing evidence and which is contradicted by primary sources."

What are these "primary sources"? Paul August ☎ 22:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Our own article says most of what we know of Zeno's biography comes from Diogenes Laertius. I just minutes ago added the thin info from the Suda, also primary, all of which confirms Diogenes Laertius. Other than some fragments, that's about it for our information about Zeno's biography (in my experience in the field). Information about his philosophy is much more scattered in the primary sources.Teishin (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Both sources say he was "Phoenician", that's not the same as saying he wasn't Syrian. He could be both Syrian and Phoenician couldn't he? I don't think we can say that these "primary sources" contradict Britannica (or encyclopedia.com). Paul August ☎ 22:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Explain how a Phoencian (ethnicity) person who was from Cyprus (location) could be from an ethnicity or a location other than those as both of those are settled? Sure, "Syria" as a concept is fluid. Roman Syria incorporated the Phoenician city of Tyre, causing Tariq afflaq to edit war about the Phoenician Porphyry being Syrian. And, sure, it is fine to say that Tyre was part of Roman Syria (my unaccepted bid to accommodate Tariq afflaq's point, but these are not the same thing. Teishin (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Phoenician as used in the ancient sources here is not necessarily an ethnicity. And even if it was, what these source are calling "Phoenician" could easily be the same thing that Britannica is calling "Syrian". We should not be relying on our interpretation of what primary sources say. We need modern scholarship to tell what these ancient sources mean. Unless we can come up with a modern source that says what Britannica says is contradicted by the ancient sources, we need to remove that part of the note. Paul August ☎ 23:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

PopulationGeneticsLevant already above gave a link to modern scholarship. If you'll investigate the issue involved, you'll see that it was ethnic Phoenicians who established a colony on Cyprus. I am not aware of a modern source that says Britannica is wrong here, nor am I aware of any reason we need such a source. I don't see such things being required in the list, posted above, on Wikipedia, of errors Wikipedia has discovered in Britannica. However, as this new point has been found to be contentious, I'll remove it while we deliberate.Teishin (talk) 23:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Tariq afflaq now permantely blocked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tariq_afflaq_reported_by_User:Teishin_(Result:_Blocked)

Republic Article Merge?

Hello, I was looking for the wikipedia article on Zeno's Republic and found it had been merged back into this main article about Zeno with no additional information by a single user over a year ago. They justified it as being all original research and that the work itself no longer exists, but to me there appeared to be at least some sourcing, and I don't believe the loss of a book disqualifies it from being an article, indeed many others have articles here? I'm not so well versed on various WP guidelines so I would appreciate it if someone could review this change? Melias C (talk) 14:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

About the city of Cituim and Zeno's ethnicity

I have two points to raise here:

1) The article says that Citium was a phoenician colony, but this is contradicted by a cited source already cited in the article:

Pearson, Alfred Chilton (1891). The Fragments of Zeno & Cleanthes with Introduction & Explanatory Notes. C.J. Clay & Sons. p. 2. Zeno, the son of Mnaseas', was born at Citium , a Greek city in the south-east of Cyprus, whose population had been increased by Phoenician immigrants. Whether he was of pure Greek blood or not we cannot tell

The article Kition says that it's a Greek city and says "The city-kingdom was originally established in the 12th century BC by Greek (Achaean) settlers, after the Trojan war."

Using this source: According to the text on the plaque closest to the excavation pit at the Kathari site (as of 2013).

It also states: "Mycenaeans first settled in the area for the purpose of the exploitation of copper, but the settlement eventually faded two centuries later as a result of constant disarray and anxiety of the time"

using this source: Andreas G. Orphanides, “The Mycenaeans in Cyprus: Economic, Political and Ethnic Implications,” Lines Between: Culture and Empire in the Eastern Mediterranean Conference, 3-6 June 2015, Nicosia, Cyprus

So there's a contradiction in the article and we should find a solution to this

2) Where's the source that says "While most contemporary and modern historians regard Zeno as a Phoenician"?

the two cited sources date to the 1950s

I couldn't find reliable sources saying that, so please provide us with the with the consensus about his ethnicity

Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

@PopulationGeneticsLevant Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)