Talk:The Mary Wallopers

Anglophobic

I've removed a sentence about the band being "noted" for being Anglophobic. Before re-adding it, can we see a source that discusses the band and actually says this? That's two aspects;

1. They are Anglophobic
2. They are noted for being Anglophobic.

Thanks. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

In the context of Ireland there is nothing wrong with being described as Anglophobic. Most Irish people I venture would be proud to describe themselves as such. It’s probably something the band would be surprised has caused such a fuss on here. It should stay. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:6D75:2B72:EAA7:8362 (talk) 20:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Just want to link to my talk page where this IP user has initiated a similar discussion. Below is a copy-paste of my response on my talk page:

Please stop including it - The Harvard Crimson is a student magazine, and you're quoting an opinion piece. Opinion pieces have value, and perhaps if the author was a recognised figure in music commentary it would merit inclusion. But even then, it would depend on how it's presented.

There's a reason that we don't include such descriptions as "Irish Rock N Roll is an essential step-up for one of the most defiant yet inherently honest forces in modern Irish music" which is from this article in HotPress Magazine.

This is in spite of the fact that HotPress Magazine is more relevant that the Harvard Crimson in this matter. The issue is that neither source are suitably encyclopaedic in nature. Indeed, the article you persistently link to doesn't even discuss the point in detail, it just make passing reference to Anglophobia in the title.

Some guy calling their music Anglophobic does not make it so, and until there exists a reliable source which describes it as such, ideally in some detail, it should not be included.

EDIT: Also I would just like to add that as an Irish person, I would be ashamed to describe either myself or anyone that I am close to as Anglophobic. Hate has no place in a progressive world. Irish people may resent the role England played in the history of Ireland, but hatred of the English themselves, today, is neither common nor acceptable. Xx78900 (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Just for transparency I would like to say that I have made a post on all of the WikiProjects connected to this article inviting the users there to comment. Those are WikiProject Irish Music, WikiProject Ireland, and WikiProject Musicians. Xx78900 (talk) 23:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You’re jumping to the conclusion that Anglophobia equals “hate”. It is incontrovertible that, for wholly understandable historical and geopolitical reasons, there is a general aversion, hostility, or disdain for England and English people in Ireland. That does not mean that anyone is accusing anyone else of hate speech (or music for that matter). 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:B9BC:7F47:C3CA:6F67 (talk) 08:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree: there is more to any -phobia than just a general disdain. It goes beyond this, involving hate speech, incitement to discrimination, denial of human rights etc.

Unless anyone can find a reference that presents creditable evidence of anglophobia, understood in the same sense as, say, Islamophobia, and isn't simply an opinion unsupported by evidence, I suggest that the inclusion of the term is not warranted.

Rconroy (talk) 18:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I think you're ignoring the power dynamics here. There is no suggestion that a folk group can deny anyone their human rights. The context of Irish/English relations renders the Anglophobia of the latter an acceptable response to repression. That Irish people dislike (on the whole) England and the English is hardly unsurprising or news. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:60DD:32D8:C9B0:C1E5 (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, that should be "Anglophobia of the former 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:60DD:32D8:C9B0:C1E5 (talk) 16:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The argument over whether it a Bad Thing or a Good Thing is missing the point. The fact is that few, if any, of the Mary Wallopers' songs are Anglophobic, or mention England at all. Here is a Google search for Mary Wallopers songs; which of these are Anglophobic? Scolaire (talk) 17:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

They could record "Rule Britannia" for all the difference it would make to point of this discussion, which is that an American newspaper described one of their performances in March 2023 as being Anglophobic, and whether that is something that should be included here. We record that they did a "widely acclaimed" charity gig (good for them) but Wikipedia shouldn't be a hagiography. It needs to be warts and all. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:60DD:32D8:C9B0:C1E5 (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, obviously it shouldn't be included – The Harvard Crimson is not only utterly non-notable; it is also, in this case, inaccurate. Scolaire (talk)

No one is accusing them of anything. This is a reputable source describing their music. We have a source saying they are "vibrant and funny" and one saying they perform "rousing pub songs and Merry Anglophobia". Why one and not the other? It RTE more reputable than the Crimson? The report in the Crimson would support the Anglophoba. 217.9.193.59 (talk) 10:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not accusing anybody of accusing them of anything. Yes, RTÉ is more reputable than the Harvard Crimson. It also accurately describes the Mary Wallopers' repertoire where The Harvard Crimson headline (not its report) does not. Scolaire (talk) 12:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Please stop doing this. The band is part of the Irish tradition of Anglophobia. The Mary Wallopers' onstage banter as reported in the article ("shut up or you're English") falls squarely within that. There is nothing wrong with Anglophobia in an Irish context. If you were to go to Ireland, or talk to Irish people, they would confirm why after the last 850 years that have hostile attitudes towards the English people. Educate yourself! 217.9.193.59 (talk) 14:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I have lived in Ireland all my life. I know its music. The Wolfe Tones are in the Irish tradition of Anglophobia. The Mary Wallopers are in the tradition of The Clancy Brothers and The Dubliners, which is not Anglophobic. If you're so knowledgeable, why can you not name a single song of theirs that fits the description? Scolaire (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

This performance, part of their musical style, was described by the newspaper of one of the world's most prestigious universities, which was for many years Cambridge, MA's only paper, as being Anglophobic. The description is backed up by the article itself ("God-forsaken", "shut up or you're English"). That Irish culture is, for understandable reasons, wholly Anglophobic, is hardly in dispute here. They are proud of their Irish heritage, and rightly so, and to be Irish is to be Anglophobic. For reasons I have detailed. 217.9.193.59 (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That is all total rubbish! "God-forsaken" and "shut up or you're English" does not constitute Anglophobia. Irish culture is very far from being "wholly Anglophobic". To be Irish is not to be Anglophobic. You understand nothing of Irishness or Irish culture. Your deliberate ignoring of my request to name a single song of theirs that fits the description shows you know nothing of the group itself, and you clearly want to include the description just because you think it is a "fun fact". Escape Orbit, Xx78900, Rconroy and myself have all explained patiently why you're barking up the wrong tree. Please, just let it go. --Scolaire (talk) 18:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe some of us are just tired of taking Anglophobia lying down in the forlorn hope it will make people like us. Educate yourself! 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:995F:4596:BE12:E67D (talk) 10:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't even know what you're trying to say any more. Scolaire (talk) 16:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

...Irish culture is, for understandable reasons, wholly Anglophobic, [and] is hardly in dispute here... to be Irish is to be Anglophobic.

In protesting alleged Anglophobia you use actual Hibernophobia? Nice one! UaMaol (talk) 21:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Why is it using “Hibernophobia” to describe Irish people as Anglophobic. They hate the English, quite properly. I am stunned that you dispute this. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:F4F8:A371:F61C:CD49 (talk) 11:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Once and for all, the Irish do not hate the English! Are you Irish? Have you ever been to Ireland? You have got this stupid idea in your head; where did it come from? I'm Irish, and I've lived in Ireland all my life, and nobody I know hates the English. Scolaire (talk) 11:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe (just a suggestion) you’re being a bit oversensitive and maybe ignoring the power dynamics here? There is no suggestion that a folk group can deny anyone their human rights. The context of Irish/English relations renders the Anglophobia of the latter an acceptable response to repression. That Irish people dislike (on the whole - clearly there will be the odd exception) England and the English is hardly unsurprising or news. As I say the band themselves would probably be quite proud of being described as such. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:4FD:C21B:660B:14F5 (talk) 09:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You're talking rubbish again. What are the "power dynamics" here? Whether an American student rag used a certain word in the headline of a music review has nothing to do with power. Nothing. And where did anybody say anything about anybody denying anybody their human rights?

Irish people on the whole have no problem with England or the English. Again, where are you from, and how can you claim such knowledge of the Irish that you know that a person from Ireland is wrong about Irish people, or what an Irish group would be proud of? And what has that to do with power? This is pure trolling. Scolaire (talk) 11:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you’re being incredibly oversensitive and naive about (a) a gig review (it was the concert, not the songs that were described as “Merry Anglophobia) and (b) a completely uncontroversial observation of well-understood Irish/English historical and cultural dynamics. Anyway, if you’re descending to petty name calling, we had better let it go. 2A00:23C6:7682:F101:A4C2:EC3C:8B06:29F5 (talk) 06:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It's Hibernophobic because it's adhering to ethnic stereotypes, of which a number of IP users are trying to use to justify the addition. Implying that hatred of the English is inherently an Irish trait is akin to implying the same for drinking, fighting and fecklessness. The Irish have a long history of "oppression, persecution, discrimination, [and] hatred", both on their own island and wherever they have settled elsewhere. The fact that this alone has become a battleground indicates to me that this is far less about fair reporting and more of an expression of hostility towards the Irish nation! UaMaol (talk) 06:36, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

TBF if it’s a negative stereotype then it’s one the…erm…Irish Times is happy enough with - https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/generation-emigration/we-need-to-rethink-our-innate-hate-the-english-attitude-1.2383834 DanielTokenhouse (talk) 06:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The basis for said accusation stems largely from the headline of a student publication, The Harvard Crimson, at least the sourcing for such. Whilst Harvard University is a highly valid institution the piece was created by a student for a student organ to be read by students; the Wikipedia article goes as far as it declaring it being entirely run by "Harvard College undergraduates." The official media body of the university is The Harvard Gazette as shown here and here, and not the aforementioned rag. The allegation in question has an actual source regardless of its questionability and it would be wrong to deny that someone somewhere described them in this way. However, the constant reverting, continued disruptive editing and controversial talk page commentary surrounding this issue is highly concerning, and makes one wonder if there's an agenda behind this persistence. In the mean time, page protection is welcomed! UaMaol (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It would be wrong to deny that someone somewhere described them in this way. However, it is totally WP:UNDUE to add it to the article. I'm assuming there's an agenda behind this persistence, but I'll be damned if I know what it is! Scolaire (talk) 16:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

They are pretty Anglophobic at their gigs. I went to one in Folkestone Kent (FFS!) and was told “get out of you’re English”. So yeah, they hate English people, or maybe they were trying to get a rise out of the natives. Original research I know but just my ha’penny’s worth. As a folk fan it’s not unusual at Irish folk gigs, even in England. DanielTokenhouse (talk) 05:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)