Talk:The Doo-Wops & Hooligans Tour/GA3

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Gatoclass (talk · contribs) 03:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment 1) WP:ACCESSIBILITY concerns – the table lacks ! scope="row" to identify rows (see WP:DTAB). Also, MOS:DTT#Avoiding column headers in the middle of the table advises against headers, such as "North America", "Europe", etc., in the table and provides two alternatives; 2) why is it necessary to collapse the Set list section entries using {{Hidden}} (see MOS:DONTHIDE)?; 3) "Cancellations and rescheduled shows" needs fixing. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

If the reviewer wants it that way, I will do it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:39, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   a joint co-headlining tour between Mars and Janelle Monáe was announced. Joint? Does this mean that Mars was also simultaneously performing in the Doo-Wops and Hooligans tour? If not, I think the word "joint" should be dropped as it is confusing.

   Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

   He later joined Travis McCoy to co-headline a European tour. This comes between two tour announcements and looks out of place and is confusing. When did this tour take place exactly, and why is mention of it sandwiched between two tour announcements?

   It is in between due to the dates of the tour. Everything came in the same announcement, from the label. I added dates, please take a look. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

   The sets started with Mars playing a drum solo, or with rock versions of "The Other Side" and "Top of The World" with a dance breakdown.[6][16][17] ... The third track on the setlist was a rock cover ... What about the sets where he started out by playing a drum solo? What were the first two songs in those sets?

   Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

   Mario, it looks as if a number of tracks were changed in the setlist in 2011, but you don't seem to have covered that, apart from a mention of the changed encore. It looks to me as if you need an additional paragraph outlining the changes to the setlist in 2011, particularly since it appears that the latter was the setlist used for most of the tour.

   Fixed. Once you get the change, let me know if the changes have been according to what you expect and want. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

   Thanks Mario, that looks better. If you don't mind, I might take a break now and come back tomorrow to take a fresh look at the article.

   @Gatoclass: Fine by me, I need to do the same. In the meantime, another user Ojorojo made a couple of commetens regarding the tables (they are above), let me know your toughts on it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 16:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

   This served as an interlude before Mars featured verses on Travie McCoy's "Billionaire", a song that the crowd was noted to join in with at many performances. None of the supplied sources say the crowd sang along to "Billionaire".

   The Thelegraph: "...Billionaire (the inescapable hit he provided last year for Travie McCoy)... For all the musical muscle-flexing, the predominantly young female crowd seem content to gaze in admiration and sing along to choruses." I suppose Neil is talking about Billionaire, The Nirvana mash-up and so on. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:15, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

   The sources don't support the statement, so I removed the statement. Perhaps something about singalongs can be added when I've had a chance to check more of the sources.

   Hi there again Mario. Apologies for the delay in getting back to this - I got a sudden case of burnout a few weeks ago and had to take a break from reviewing - the batteries are in somewhat better shape now so hopefully we can get this wrapped up soon.

I hope you are feeling better Gatoclass! I feel the same way.

1. This served as an interlude before Mars featured verses on Travie McCoy's "Billionaire". I'm a bit confused by this sentence, what does it mean he "featured verses" on the song?

I meant he sang his verses of the song, the chorus. Perhaps something like "This served as an interlude before Mars sung his verses of Travie McCoy's "Billionaire"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

1. B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   Where are the sources for the tour dates section?

   In front of each continent. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:42, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

   "while hip-hop duo Diafrix supported Mars in Australia" - no mention of Diafrix in the supplied source that I can see.

   Click on speacial guest. 11:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)MarioSoulTruthFan (talk)

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   Okay, first question MarioSoulTruthFan: why am I reading about the "Hooligans in Wondaland" tour when the article is supposed to be about the Doo-Wops & Hooligans tour? Gatoclass (talk) 12:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

   Also, in the "Concert synopsis" section, I can't even tell which tour it is about, is it about Doo-Wops or Wondaland?

   Its part of the same tour, instead of opening for other acts the label and Mars decided it was better to do a co-headline tour, it has a different name because its Mars and Monae. It's about diferent shows, the synopsis consists of several shows giving the reader a resume of a concert (not every source goes into detail about it). MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) (13:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

   What I'm saying Mario is that it's very confusing to read. Even your reply here is quite confusing, you start out by saying "it's part of the same tour" and that it was a "co-headline" tour, but then go on to say "it's about different shows". If you yourself aren't clear about whether the shows are the same or different, how can you expect readers to be clear about it?

   My suggestion would be to either create a separate article for the "Hooligans in Wondaland" tour, or, if you are really convinced they belong in the same article, then create a new, separate section for the later, 2011 "Hooligans in Wondaland" leg below those sections pertaining to the Doo-Wop tour. That way, you can address the personnel changes and possibly the setlist changes and so on in a clear way that is easy for readers to follow.

   Let me rephrase, we have the The Doo-Wops & Hooligans Tour, those shows of the Doo-Wops or Wondaland are part of the aforementioned tour, the only difference is the headliner, instead of being only Mars is the latter and Monae. More clear? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

   @Gatoclass: So I took your suggestion and changed some of the contect in the article in order to included the "Hooligans in Wondaland" portion of the tour. I didn't do a section with it because it would seem redudent to have one wih 4/5 sources and two senteces per sub-section and instead I made a visible point on the sections, for instance on the critical reception I put the two reviews that regard those shows in a different paragraph saying, "The Hooligans in Wondaland concerts..." A new setlist was added, which has two songs difference. I called out the different personnel stating (2011 Hooligans in Wondaland tour). I even made some changes to the concert synopsis section, as well as the Background and development. Please take a look at those changes and see if you are ok with them, if there is anything else I forgot just let me know. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Status query

Gatoclass, MarioSoulTruthFan, where does this stand now? I don't see any edits here or to the article since April 25. Can we get this moving again? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The reviewer has various reviews open, and has been taking care of them, I'm willing to wait. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:07, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

MarioSoulTruthFan, apologies with the delay in getting back to this, but I had to put it on the back burner as I wasn't sure what to do with it, and am still unsure. Do you actually have a source that states clearly that the "Doo-Wops & Hooligans" tour was the same as, or was renamed, the "Hooligans in Wondaland" tour? Because to somebody with admittedly no experience in such topics, they look like two different events to me. Gatoclass (talk) 04:28, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Mars official website makes no distinction from the tours with all the dates together Bruno Mars site. On the other hand, Billboard also states "Before Mars and Monae kick off their road trip together, both artists will kick off their own European runs in the coming weeks". So I'm a bit on the fence regarding this, I can always create the subsection here or a new article with that information, it's your call. Eihter way, it will take a very short amount of time to do so and you can get back on reviwing the rest of the article. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2020 (UTC). The reason behind the name of the tour "The trek — dubbed “Hooligans in Wondaland” after Bruno’s new album, Doo-Wops & Hooligans, and Monae’s Atlanta crew, the Wondaland Arts Society, and a song from her superb album, The ArchAndroid" → Spin.

Mario, are you saying you'd be prepared to write a separate article for the "Hooligans in Wondaland" tour? I have the impression that that might be the best course of action, but if you did that, would you still have enough material for the two articles? Gatoclass (talk) 08:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Yes, and I will be doing such today. No need to worry about the material on the The Doo-Wops & Hooligans Tour, there will be enough, and as for the other, leave to me. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:59, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: it is done, the article has only a mention of the Hooligans in Wondaland Tour. I believe you can address everything else. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Are you still up for this? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:54, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Mario, I had thought that I was going to complete this review quickly, but unfortunately, when I came back to look at it again the next day, I started finding discrepancies between the text and the sources. I realized at that point that I would either have to fail it, or take the time to go through all the sources carefully to ensure the article text is accurate. I decided on the later course, but have been unsure whether I should continue with this review or go on to some of the others who are waiting as theirs might be less problematic, in order to get them out of the way before returning to this. And in fact, I just decided a few minutes ago that I'm going to try that, or at least try to move them along a bit, as I just don't have time right now to do the sort of thorough overhaul of an article that this one looks like requiring, because I'm very busy off-wiki right now. But if you don't want to wait, I can close this review now for you to find another reviewer, it's up to you. Gatoclass (talk) 14:05, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine waiting, I just wanted to know what was the status of it. When you find the time and wanted to address the rest of the article, just let me know. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Gatoclass and MarioSoulTruthFan: I realise you are both happy to keep this open longer than normal, but we are approaching 6 months now. Maybe it is time to fail it if the issues are that major? AIRcorn (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Aircorn: The reviewer had a back injury, not to long ago. However, he recently closed one he had open and he is about to close another one. Afterwards this one will follow, I have been waiting for a long time and I don't mind waiting more. Gatoclass has been making helpful edits to the page every one and then. When he starts to make comments I will address them. I'm sure he has no intention to abondone this review. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 23:56, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I noticed they had a few outstanding reviews. Hope they are feeling better. All good. AIRcorn (talk) 08:19, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

After another three months

Gatoclass, MarioSoulTruthFan, this review has been open for over nine months, and it has been over three months since any edit has been made to this page and nearly that since the article was edited. Gatoclass, at some point it is only fair that you acknowledge that a review is not being done in a sufficiently timely manner, and it is surely well past that point now. I respectfully suggest that you withdraw and another reviewer be found—it is not necessary to close the review, but to allow a second reviewer to complete the review. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:19, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it has been far too long, but Mario just asked me a few days ago what was happening with it, and I told him I expected to get it done very soon. Unfortunately I've had a bout of insomnia the last few days and have just been too tired to take it on, but I really just need one dedicated evening with a reasonably clear head to get it done. Please give me two more weeks and if I haven't wrapped it up by then, hand it to someone else. Gatoclass (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Two weeks it is. Thanks, Gatoclass. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I will only be able to address the issues on the weekend, hopefully that won't be an issue. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

It's going to take a little longer to wind this thing up than I anticipated, as I ran into huge problems trying to sort out the "Concert summary" section, due to numerous inaccurate statements and extremely messed up citations - it's taken me the best part of a week, rather than an evening, to work through it, and I basically ended up having to rewrite the whole thing, excluding the first paragraph, from scratch. The good news is that that's the hardest bit out of the way, I only have to revamp the criticism section and lead which will be much easier, and this should be ready to wrap - hopefully not more than another day or two. Gatoclass (talk) 08:23, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your efforts. I read the new summary and it looks like an huge improvement, when comparing to what was written before. Take your time. Best regards, MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I have pretty much finished my editing to the article, apart perhaps from a minor tweak here and there. All I have to do now is check some of the sourcing in the rest of the article.

In the meantime MarioSoulTruthFan, I have still been unable to verify the mention of Diafrix. I think you should also unhide the set lists as the other commenter suggested, as it doesn't conform to MOS to hide them. Also, the first source - the press release - has expired and needs to be updated. I will post additional issues as I find them. Gatoclass (talk) 07:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Open the given source (the archive-link) and click on "special guests". I will fix the rest. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

BlueMoonset, I have finished my editing to this article, and completed most of the GAN checks. The only problem is that because my edits were so substantial, I have effectively become a co-creator of the article and am now in a position where completing the GAN would be in effect approving my own work. Would it be possible for you to perhaps quickly find somebody to wind up the review? The only things that need to be checked now are the prose quality, article balance and MOS compliance. Many thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 06:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: thank you for completing edits that the original nominator couldn't. I am still confused as to whether it was originally planned for the tour with Janelle Monae to intersect with this one, or if this was a last-minute decision and some of the Doo-wop tour dates were canceled/rescheduled to accommodate. The article isn't clear either in the lead or body. Otherwise, it looks satis Kingsif (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, if you check the "Background and development" section, you will see that the joint tour with Monae wasn't announced until February 2011, so it wasn't part of the original tour plan. Gatoclass (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe some phrasings need to be clearer, is what I was getting at. (Perhaps I should have applied this to myself!) Kingsif (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, I can see no evidence that any dates were cancelled or rescheduled. Dates for the original tour were confirmed in January and went all the way through to mid-April in Oceania. The following month, it was announced that Mars would be returning to North America following the Oceania dates to begin the tour with Monae. Since there were apparently no cancellations or reschedules, it isn't clear to me what could be added to "clarify" things? New dates for the tour were continually announced as they were arranged, as I'm sure occurs with many such tours. Gatoclass (talk) 17:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

So the text says:

In mid-April 2011, it was temporarily suspended while Mars and his band joined forces with Janelle Monáe for a co-headline tour of North America dubbed Hooligans in Wondaland. This tour ended in mid-June and the Doo-Wops & Hooligans tour was resumed (lead)

Mars performed the first dates of his headline concerts, The Doo-Wops & Hooligans Tour, in the United States from November 16 to November 30 [2010] [...] In February 2011, a co-headlining tour between Mars and Janelle Monáe was announced, dubbed the Hooligans in Wondaland Tour. This tour was completed in North America in May and June 2011, after which the Doo-Wops and Hooligans tour resumed in July (background and development)

so in the lead, it suggested (to me) that the tour with Monae was not part of the original plan ("temporarily suspended"), but then the background part made me think that it was part of the original plan ("resumed"), even if it wasn't announced at the time. This is likely the implications of the words ("suspended" suggests sudden, "resume" suggests forethought), but it left me surprised when I read it, and I didn't know which was accurate. I don't know if there would be a source of someone saying "it wasn't the original plan", but I feel it could be clarified by adding something to the background and development about planning of the Monae tour, or even if the phrase "temporarily suspended" got copied to the main text. The more I type the more it sounds fussy, but I really was uncertain when I read it, and you don't want to leave a read confused. I'm also not sure if "joined forces" in the lead is strictly encyclopedic but I'm not too worried about that. Kingsif (talk) 20:52, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, is there any chance that you could make an edit to fix the issue you have identified yourself? Because quite frankly I can't see a problem with the text as it is, and I simply don't understand exactly what it is that you want to see done. Cheers, Gatoclass (talk) 11:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I also don't understand the issue. How about "intercalated" instead of suspended in the lead? Moreover, instead of "joined forces" how about "Mars and his band joined Janelle Monáe"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Looks like pings didn't go through because I didn't see these comments. @Gatoclass: well I can't because I don't know if the suspension was planned or not, that's the issue... @MarioSoulTruthFan: those suggestions sound fine. If "intercalated" is accurate it would resolve the confusion, too. Kingsif (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, Gatoclass It seems that Gatoclass disagrees with my "intercalated" suggestion saying "please let's just stick to plain engish" when I added that to the article and he reverted. Not sure how to resolve that, any ideas? Regarding Kingsif question, I have no idea if it was planed or not, henceforth the "intercalated" it doesn't make a commitment to anything (pllaned or not). Nevertheless, I fixed the "joined forces" issue and it seems that eveyone agrees with that. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 16:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@MarioSoulTruthFan: Well I wouldn't use "intercalated" on simple English Wikipedia but standard it seems plain enough. Perhaps some form of "inserted" also achieves that unknown middle ground? Kingsif (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, since the "temporarily suspended" phrase seems to have caused confusion, I have removed it from the lead. Have a look and see how it reads to you now. Gatoclass (talk) 18:46, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It is fine for me. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@Gatoclass and MarioSoulTruthFan: yes, works for me. Thanks for the work put in to improve this, happy to pass. Kingsif (talk) 21:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.