Talk:The Dillinger Escape Plan

More vandalism

Yay, my first edit! I couldn't help noticing this in the Chris Pennie and Coheed and Cambria bit of the article: "The band (Coheed and Cambria) was impressed with Pennie after seeing him live, and decided to make this offer. Pennie accepted, like the little cunt he is, and left the band without a drummer..." I erased the cunt part. Is it okay? (Chris Muerto)

Experimental

why was the genre listing TDEP as "Experimental metal" taken away? they fall into that category unmistakably and their albums are listed multiple times as "Experimental metal/mathcore". I've re-added the genre. I hope this doesn't meet with any arguments as it's a pretty easy thing to agree with. RPTechnic (talk) 23:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

It appears this page has been vandalized in several areas, replacing Weinman with "Wankman" and crediting Ben Wienman with "dildoflutes." Could someone more well versed in Wiki operation restore the page from a previous draft? Fumbingehmer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fumbingehmer (talk • contribs) 01:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Chris Pennie leaving band

Chris did not leave the band because he got an offer from Coheed he couldn't refuse. I don't know where whoever wrote that came up with that BS, but Chris leaving the band was innevitable due to irreconcilable differences between him and Weinman.76.115.66.224 (talk) 12:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Jeff Tuttle

Can anyone provide a source saying Jeff Tuttle is in the band? I've never heard of him. MrHate 10:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

www.myspace.com/dillingerescapeplan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noneofthemknew (talk • contribs) 13:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

DEP Image

The sidebar on the right has an image of five people, but the caption only lists four names. Could someone remedy this?

They have a new image in an interview but I don't know how to add images. However, here is the link. It shows Ben, Greg, and Liam but no image of Jeff or Gil but at least it is a recent photo of them. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1564675/20070712/dillinger_escape_plan.jhtml Suffor 21:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The image is owned by Relapse Records. You'll need to sort out the license and ownership first. We cannot unfortunately add any image to Wikipedia just because it exists. The KZA 00:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

DEP as MCR

In this interview with fans, someone mentioned they'd heard about a set Dillinger did where they dressed up as the boys from My Chemical Romance, and asked for pictures of it. Greg said he didn't know if any existed, but at some point in time, Dillinger were on Fuse's "Steven's Rock Show", or whatever it's called, doing an interview, and for the last portion of it they donned their MCR costumes. It's very possible someone could've screencapped it. Does any one have any screens? —Jeff 20:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If verifiable, this would be a nice addition to the Trivia section. —Bvoppen 19:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Tech metal and mathcore...

In Belgium, the band is to be said as an arhythmical hardcore band or converge...Stephan KŒNIG 10:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not hardcore —Dexter prog 15:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

They are not hardcore, you're right, but this band has notable hardcore punk influences, i.e. the screaming which is a singing style common in hardcore punk. The more emo singing on Miss Machine is also an example of their punk roots. (emo is a genre derived from punk). Listen to the earliest records and you'll notice they sound more hardcore than they do now.

The tags found on Last.fm are (not a good source but it is an indication): experimental grindcore hardcore mathcore metal metalcore rock seen live. Mostly 'core' genres.

I'll change math metal into mathcore.

For more proof of their hardcore roots you could read their bio http://shop.relapse.com/artist/artist.aspx?ArtistID=10030

thank you

Emmaneul 13:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Someone eventually will give his/her reasons and change it to math metal again, and then someone else will change back to mathcore, and so on... Leobarudi 06:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

But it's a fact they are greatly influenced by hardcore. DEP started out as an hardcore band, they look like hardcore guys, They sound harsh and out of control... (more so on CI than MM) hardcore is all over this band. The only thing metal and DEP have in common is distorted guitar. But you're probably right... Emmaneul 20:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

TDEP started out as.. well what they are now. They were however, a reincarnation of the hardcore band Arcane. That aside, hardcore (punk) is fast, simple music. The whole point of hardcore is to be simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck. TDEP's riffing style has more in common with thrash metal (the progressive kind, actually, if you'd listen to Dark Angel's last album you'd notice, you can also sorta hear some similarities with Watchtower) and death metal, with lots of dissonance, jazz and bossa nova influences thrown in. And let's not forget about the shredding and sweeping. Their drummer plays everything under the sun. Simply put, it doesn't make sense to call them "hardcore" and everyone I know that's serious about hardcore punk hates it when people call them "hardcore", including myself. If you listen to it, you'll notice that they have a lot more in common with Cynic and Gorguts, than they do with Minor Threat or Black Flag. The only thing really lacking that most metal bands have is a "metal vibe" which I don't get from their music. But that's mostly due to their unorthodox riffing. My vote? Put them as "tech metal" or whatever. It doesn't describe their music, just the fact that it's technical and metal, but it's the closest you can get to describing the band without sounding like a weirdo. No one takes the term "mathcore" seriously anyway.86.81.15.127 00:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you listened to their self titled record? That really doesn't sound like what they are now. But like you say "The whole point of hardcore is to be simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck.". What DEP did is take "simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck.", throw away "simple", add complexity and, voila, mathcore was born. I don't deny DEP has metal influences, in fact, I'm sure they have metal influences, like a lot of bands coming from the post hardcore movement. DEP took what bands did in the post-hardcore movement to the extreme. They sound very similar to (less extreme) bands also rooted in hardcore like Coalesce, Converge, Botch (by the way, Coalesce and Botch members are friends of DEP members). You may think they don't really resemble Black Flag but it IS a major influence (DEP has recorded two songs for a Black Flag tribute album).

And keep in mind thrash metal is greatly influenced by hardcore punk.

Some sources:

"Dillinger Escape Plan's frenetic, intense, and sometimes violently spastic performances became the talk of the hardcore scene."

"The Dillinger Escape Plan creates maniacally intense, crushingly metallic, and decidedly hardcore punk-infused jazz time-signature invoking compositions"

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg%2edll?p=amg&sql=11:gcfyxqqjldse~T1

The Last.fm community considers DEP to be: experimental grindcore hardcore math metal mathcore metal metalcore, mostly -core genres...

I don't like using metal-archives.com to proove my point (because I think the submission rules suck) but metal-archives don't allow DEP into the database because DEP are too hardcore,
so I'm not the only one that thinks DEP is rooted in hardcore.
Emmaneul 08:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Converge, Coalesce and Botch aren't "post-hardcore". That's stuff like Fugazi, later At The Drive-In, Drive Like Jehu, Lungfish and so on. Allmusic.com is a source for music and they label grindcore as a style of metal, which it isn't. It's a type of hardcore punk that has been around since before the metal influenced grindcore bands started emerging. "I Hate Pigeons" by Cyanamid was recorded in '83 or '84 and it's 100% hardcore punk. Lärm seemed to have hated metal back in the '80s, yet they also set the blueprint for what's now known as "grindcore". Basically, just because you read it on the internet does not make it true. Simply put, the hardcore community, the dudes with the Gauze shirts, the Capitalust Casualties fans, the people that obsess over Confuse, and so on, don't consider it hardcore: simply because it isn't. The riff style isn't hardcore (again, listen to "Obscura" by Gorguts and you'll know what I mean, "Focus" by Cynic as well), the drumming isn't hardcore and the drumming has more in common with something you'd expect to hear on a Cynic record, and so on. Shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, scales, that just isn't hardcore. Yeah, thrash metal has greatly been influenced by hardcore punk, but more in attitude and speed, the riff style evolved from NWOBHM bands like Judas Priest, Venom and Motörhead. Which greatly changed through-out the '80s and changed in to what we now known as thrash metal. Sure, TDEP is influenced by hardcore punk, no one denies that. And for every hardcore punk band they've covered, they've covered a load of other bands as well. And yes, I have their whole discography, their first EP sounds like death metal meets Don Caballero with a hardcore punk vocalist. Which is what was the most hardcore about them; the vocals. Except for now, Greg sounds more like a pissed off Mike Patton than a hardcore vocalist (though hardcore vocals and metal vocals are often used by both genres it's gotten hard to tell, really, I mean, the hardcore punk band Hellnation has high screams that are sorta similar to the ones in death metal). The Dillinger Escape Plan isn't on Metal-archives because those people are too image concious and according to them, TDEP has more in common with "Atreyu and Avenged Sevenfold than metal". Meanwhile, quite a bunch of TDEP rip-offs that aren't nearly as "hip" as TDEP are on there (PsyOpus anyone?). I doubt they actually gave them a good listen anyway.Plus, the word "core" is used for anything that is "new" and "heavy" nowadays. Besides, Relapse records started selling TDEP as "math metal" (possibly a reference to math rock bands like Slint that have similar dynamics), it's a term that caught on and went through some changes and is now applied to anything with screamy vocals, weird time signatures and loud guitars, no matter if it doesn't have anything in common with another band that's labeled that.86.81.15.127 17:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You think allmusic is wrong this time? That's an easy way to get rid of a good argument. (By the way AM considers grindcore as an hybrid of "thrash metal and hardcore punk")

"Shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, scales, that just isn't hardcore". Converge, Coalesce, Botch, etc. do shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, and they sound very similar to DEP, they are considered similar to DEP. They are considered rooted in hardcore. So maybe their riff style and drums aren't purely hardcore (I don't think they are metal either), their singing is, their image is, their uncontrolled anger is (call it "hardcore vibe" if you want), and I think their lyrics are. No metal involved here.

You can compare DEP to "metal" bands like Gorguts and Cynic - I also hear the resemblance - but Gorguts and Cynic are bands that took elements outside of metal and don't sound like any other "tech metal" band.

Indeed, -core is used (too) much nowadays, that doesn't imply DEP is metal.

I think we'll never get done with this discussion. So I made my point.

Emmaneul 22:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As the bio implies on their Relapse page, you either hate DEP, or you love them! Crossover bands typically defy easy labeling... But it would be nonsensical to deny their origins (and thus influence) from hardcore (whether punk or metal). They have combined that with many other genres, too many to mention. "Mathcore" seems an easy enough label to pigeon-hole them, until a better term comes along. Honestly, who was doing this blend of technicality with hardcore and metal influence before "Calculating Infinity"?

—Bvoppen 20:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

References

Whale Hunter?

The article states that this band is "Managed by longtime friend and whale hunter Tom Apostolopoulos". Can anyone provide a primary source for this? All Google was turning up for me was Wikipedia and some blogs. I'm wondering if someone inserted "whale hunter" here is as subtle form of vandalism. RxVUx6EB 03:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I dug a little here. That was added back in January 2006 with this edit by an account that made less than 50 edits - all related to The DEP - and then disappeared. That same user also contributed to Tom Apostolopoulos which has been deleted four times, the last by Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Apostolopoulos. That AFD didn't say anything about the guy himself being a hoax but it did end with delete. It mentioned that he's part of some site called Buddyhead.com which I think is the real reason for that article's existence. The original version of the Tom Apostolopoulos article starts with an image of a real Grizzly Bear and the caption, "Shot of Apostolopoulos ambushing an unauthorized photographer at a Dillinger Escape Plan show. Shot taken by said photographer shortly before his death". It also says,

A renowned whale hunter, Apostolopoulos once speared a 79 foot sperm whale 134 miles off the coast of Maine. His whale hunting skills have extended into the kitchen of his restaurant, where a number of whale-related dishes are featured on the menu (when in season).

Coiner of the phrase "Nah Brah" and more recently "Going Off", which may have been pilfered from Aaron North, aka "The Corpse".

Once rumored to be a member of some sort of Greek mafia along with original Dillinger singer Dimitri Minakakis, he has little regard for any life other than himself and those he is friends with.

From this link, it appears that the band thanked Apostolopoulos in the liner notes of The Dillinger Escape Plan (EP) - I don't have that one but I'm sure someone can confirm that. This site also mentions a car accident that Apostolopoulos and Weinman were in. In short, it looks like Apostolopoulos does exist and is affiliated with The DEP but that he probably doesn't need a mention here. And the whale hunter stuff is almost certainly nonsense. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The User that added these edits is actually Greg Puticio, lead singer of this very band. He went as far as to comment on their myspace page how ridiculous wikipedia is that he couldn't even add to HIS BANDS OWN wikipedia page without having the edits removed.

Then Puciato should stick to MySpace, and not editing Wikipedia. If you add irrelevant information (which all of it is), it will be removed, even if it is about your OWN BAND. MrHate 03:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I have the record and I just checked: It's in liner notes of The Dillinger Escape Plan (EP)

Emmaneul 14:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

So, Tom Apostolopoulos was associated with DEP, leave that in. But does it really matter here that he is a whale hunter? It seems entirely irrelevant. I suggest at least deleting that information.

—Bvoppen 19:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll delete the whale hunting bit, but I also suggest taking him out all together. Unless Apostolopoulos has made some sort of contribution to the band beside being credited in their first independent EP, it's not appropriate to mention him here. MrHate 03:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Deplive.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism EP.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Irony is a Dead Scene' album cover.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Calculating Infinity' album cover.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan Nora - Split EP Cover.jpg

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genre

I think DEP deserves a (well-sourced) 'style and influences' section. We should link to it from the genre part in the infobox (like the Queen (band), System of a Down, etc articles have) to make clear DEP is more than just mathcore. I'll try to look up some info sooner or later. Please help wherever you can. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 19:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Bias, irrelevence and assorted?

Is it being disputed that James Love is a past member of Dillinger? Is it being disputed that the James Love currently linked is someone else entirely? Is it disputed that The Dillinger Escape Plan do not easily fall into one conclusive genre of music? Is it disputed that Dillinger is known for off meter, polymetric arrangements? What about Ben managing the band? The album being done? Jeff Tuttle taking the place of James Love?

--GongAYong 12:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism Album Cover.jpg

Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism Album Cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Nomenclature

Can anyone add anything about the origins of the name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.161.7 (talk) 21:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

DEP <-> TDEP

The article states that The Dillinger Escape Plan is sometimes know as DEP. As far as I know, it's more commonly abbreviated with TDEP. Even if you search in the discussion page over here, there are a lot of matches for TDEP. Anyway, I just added a redirect page for TDEP and added the abbreviation to the article. --EdSchouten (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Grindcore category

I added the grindcore category. For the record I think mathcore is a perfectly reasonable genre listing the DEP, which is why I haven't changed the info box. They do however utilise grindcore elements in their sound and I feel the category should be as inclusive as possible in order to avoid pointless edit wars and arguments on band discussion pages. As per WP:RS, my reference to justify this inclusion is Extreme Metal, Keith Kahn-Harris (2007), Berg Publishers, ISBN 1-84520-399-2, p.4: "Contemporary grindcore bands such as The Dillinger Escape Plan and Agoraphobic Nosebleed have developed avant-garde versions of the genre incorporating frequent time signature changes and complex sounds that at times recall free jazz." Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, DEP "utilise grindcore elements," but The Dillinger Escape Plan do not play grindcore, just as Venom did not play punk rock. And the source? A single line of text, taken from a book which does not focus on extreme metal, but the extreme metal scene. 68.47.81.164 (talk) 03:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It is however a reliable source, written by someone with a well-documented history of writing for extreme metal publications. The book does indeed deal primarily with 'scene' aspects of extreme metal but this does not in itself invalidate it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to leave the grindcore thing alone, though I'm positive I know who has been pushing this agenda on this and the grindcore articles. Anyone who knows what grind is wouldn't posit DEP as such and until there's a consensus in the know that they are, this should be left deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.50.156 (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The reference used for erroneous inclusion of "grindcore" in the genre box is a subpar opinion piece/tour report by Iann Robinson, who goes on to claim "Ending the whole festival was the Dillinger Escape plan, the grindcore/metal outfit that sounds like calculus played through loud amps and tuned down to heavy-as-hell tuning" even though Dillinger never tune down lower than D standard (which isn't very low in modern terms) and that Today is the Day are "grindcore". Iann Robinson's opinions have always been questionable, especially in light of the his other comments in the article that seem only half-informed, therefore so is this citation. If it really comes down to it, whoever is deadset on positing the false notion that Dillinger should offer some actual proof since NO INFORMED PARTY has ever made this claim. And even if someone could argue for "grindcore influence", influence doesn't make them grind.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 00:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

New DEP Genre influence?

Is it me, or does anyone else have the feeling that DEP have built more of an Alternative metal-influenced sound through their mathcore style of play from their most recent album Ire Works? I think this point could be slightly evident to the fact that one of their most notable subgenres on their myspace is 'Alternative'. Anyone else agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Funkmetalhead16 (talk • contribs) 14:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Myspace is not a reliable source. And obviously, Myspace Music doesn't have an option for 'mathcore'. Find a source and feel free to include it but make sure you read WP:RS first. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

New Page Re-Write

Due to the page's start class, I have re-written it with more information. I didn't source, but the sources are there, I'm just too lazy at the moment to add them. The information is true, however. I also added an infobox at the bottom, but noticed issues with the Irony is a Dead Scene page that I can't fix. However, if people could add pictures to the articles, it would look much better. Tribestros (talk) 23:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. If you don't source, you won't get uprated. Sorry. Remains start-Class. Please have another go at it. Best wishes.

P.S. Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Under the Running Board' album cover.jpg is an awful photograph, way too dark! Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hit Parader

is is notable that they only learned that chris had left through wikipedia on the coheed and cambria page? its in this months hit parader magazine.♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 19:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There was other pages & stuff that were online before Ire Works release. Tribestros 21:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Picture

That picture is a current picture of DEP with Jeff Tuttle, and is more accurate than the live picture, which features former band members, making it not accurate. Thanks, and please do not revert it again. Also, please leave the pictures in the article unless you can prove why you see them not helpful. Tribestros (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The current picture (probably) violates copyright, a big issue here on wikipedia. If there is a free alternative, the free one must be used. Pease read WP:NONFREE.

No, it doesn't violate copyright. If it did, Wikipedia would have flagged the image. 98.199.51.46 (talk) 00:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverting This Page...

Really, honestly this page looks like crud. I had it at a B rating, now it's probably nowhere close because of all the reverting. You are all dumbasses. Tribestros (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Move members section to its own page?

The members section on this page is getting messy and complicated. Perhaps this information should have its own page such as List of Slipknot band members and List of Offspring band members? Fezmar9 (talk) 22:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Discography Page

Looks like someone redirected the discography page to this one without really thinking about it. There's now no mention anywhere of their five EPs. Can someone change this back? Pwrong (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Progressive metal

Shouldn't progressive metal be listed within the genre box aswell? NoremacDaGangsta (talk) 22:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Mathcore is technical metalcore, so no. - GunMetal Angel 19:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Greg Puciato Error

I added that he was formerly of the band error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.159.37 (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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On the subject of DEP's disbandment

Just because a band is no longer recording new material and is planning to disband, doesn't mean they already have. When an artist is still actively setting dates for shows, and subsequently performing, it means they are active.

Their official website says their final show takes place in Tokyo on October 28. That means October this year. Feel free to notice the date in my signature. Rhe dm i (talk) 4:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

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Photos pre-2005

Just wondering if any one has any photos pre-2005 they can upload to makes the article look nicer theirs quite a few available after 2005 but not before. NDLSS (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I looked on Flickr the other day but I've only found copyrighted images so far. Ojo del tigre (talk) 12:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

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Lead

I feel like Mathcore, though accurate to describe the bands genre in a sense, is a very limited term within Metalcore. I feel as if "Metalcore" or "Emperimental metalcore" would be better fit for the lead. Dekai Averett (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Completely agree, mathcore is a very niche term also and has seen less usage as time has went on, I feel like metalcore would be a much better term. NDLSS (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Due to all the recent edits, I think this subject should be addressed again. Firstly, I think that describing The Dillinger Escape Plan as hardcore punk is completely innacurate. Their primary influences include progressive music—which is arguably the opposite of hardcore and punk—, extreme metal, metallic hardcore, jazz fusion and intelligent dance music, most of which are far removed from punk. The only hardcore band I've seen constantly cited (especially by Ben Weinman) is Black Flag and their leader Greg Ginn, who from 1984 on incorporated elements of jazz fusion and heavy metal, and that could barely be described as "hardcore". All their hardcore influences are filtered through other styles (thrash metal with Deadguy, thrash metal and prog with Today is the Day, jazz with Dazzling Killmen, 1970s hard rock and dub with Fugazi, krautrock with Drive Like Jehu, etc.) Even on their self-titled EP, Weinman said they literally wanted to be Deadguy, a metalcore band.[1] (2:14:13) In addition, they are widely classified as progressive metal as well, which, again, is arguably the opposite of hardcore punk. They were part of a scene in the 1990s, the hardcore punk scene, not the genre as such: at the time you had bands like Craw who were more akin to King Crimson than the Cro-Mags, or Earth Crisis who were practically a death metal band.

Like other editors, including Beefcakeyt, I absolutely think it's better to describe them as mathcore. Their style and influences are too different from, for example, Hatebreed or Killswitch Engage, and I don't even feel the need to compare them with "pure" hardcore punk bands. But if other editors like Dekai Averett and NDLSS want to use the broadest term, I think that metalcore or experimental metal it's best. But calling The Dillinger Escape Plan hardcore is like calling Mayhem hard rock.

Secondly, DannyMusicEditor, please be civil. You have no right to insult other editors, especially because nobody has mistreated you here. Ojo del tigre (talk) 15:12, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

As I've said before I feel like metalcore is the best term to use in the lead. I agree that hardcore punk is too vague as I see the band equality as metal as they are hardcore.NDLSS (talk) 16:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I think experimental metal would be the best lead. They play a multitude of styles of metal including grindcore, metalcore, noisecore, jazzcore, and progressive metal. Also the page for Avant-garde metal states that the genre does take influence from extreme genres (like the aforementioned ones) and progressive music, which The Dillinger Escape Plan draws on heavily. Dekai Averett (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@NDLSS: Idiot (n.) someone who edit-wars repeatedly over something clearly against NPOV (myself included), even going to the extent of socking. None of us should be one. I suppose NPOV or neutrality should have been mentioned somewhere, I guess that was neglected. Apologies, that makes me one too. My vote is for "hardcore"; not hardcore punk (though they are), but hardcore with a link to hardcore punk. This is a blanket cover and the most basic term to the most subgenres possible that the band falls under - hardcore punk, metalcore, mathcore, and grindcore all fall under this. @Dekai Averett: I strongly disagree that a genre with no official Wikipedia page should be listed as a main lead descriptor - heck, I'm iffy on if it should even be in the infobox. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 22:05, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

My vote is for mathcore, that's the style they play in 95% of their catalog with the exception of a couple of experimental/progressive/pop songs like "Black Bubblegum", "Mouth of Ghosts", "Dissociation" or "Parasitic Twins", but if it's not chosen (and I don't have a big problem with that) for experimental metal, metalcore or even avant-garde metal, but not hardcore. They emerged on a scene that brings together a set of ethics, such as DIY, anti-commercialism, aggressive live shows and/or straight edge, which is known as hardcore, but their music is not hardcore punk at all. I guess that should be pointed out in the lead (and thanks, by the way, for adding the template "Lead too short", it has been neglected for a long time). They are musically much more related to avant-garde or progressive bands like Meshuggah, Naked City or Mr. Bungle than to Dead Kennedys or Minor Threat. Ojo del tigre (talk) 23:01, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Noticed I pinged the wrong person - you were the one I meant to ping, sorry. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Also, I swore I saw hardcore punk listed in this article somewhere. I was confusing that with Calculating Infinity. My apologies, forget what I said. Oddly enough, metalcore, or maybe just "metal" with a link to heavy metal music, may end up being the best here. I am now neutral dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 00:37, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Mathcore is a niche term and tho they do make Mathcore they also make many other Metal genres which us why I feel Experimental metal would be the best lead. Dekai Averett (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Like I said, that doesn't truly exist, which makes for a poor lead choice. dannymusiceditor ^oops 02:37, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

There is an overwhelming amount of support and evidence online for labeling TDEP Mathcore, there shouldn't be so much uncivil disagreement on the topic (I'm looking at you DannyMusicEditor , insulting other editors over the genre of a band is sad.) The argument that 'while Mathcore is the most accurate term, we shouldn't use it because it's too niche' is the exact reason genres stay niche and underground. The fact of the matter is that we should identify the band's genre by what the band itself identifies as, TDEP regularly classifies themselves as mathcore, they maintain obvious elements of mathcore, and you all have said it yourselves, mathcore is the most accurate descriptor for the band. It is not opinionated, Editors on Wiki should strive to be as accurate as possible, using 'niche terms' is not negative and should especially be applied when it is the most accurate descriptor for the band. Identify the band based on what the band identifies themselves as, it's really that simple. Rabbitgears (talk) 15:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

I couldn't have said it better myself; saying that you can't label a band a certain genre on Wikipedia because the genre in question is too niche is like saying you can't call an apple a Granny Smith, you must call it an apple, because that is the most general term. Except now, when someone asks the difference between a Red Delicious and a Granny Smith, you have to respond that there is no difference, because they are both apples (when there are clear differences). Similarly, The Dillinger Escape Plan (TDEP/DEP) is not the same as all/any other metalcore band(s). They have defining characteristics in their music, specifically their incorporation odd-meter, spastic rhythmic patterns, chaos and dissonance that make them mathcore. It would be one thing if we were arguing whether or not a band like 'iwrestledabearonce' is mathcore, but TDEP are literally referred to as the 'Pioneers of Mathcore'. These guys created the genre, and to say they're not apart of the genre they created and inspired many bands to follow-up under is simple ignorance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beefcakeyt (talk • contribs) 15:57, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

is the exact reason genres stay niche and underground. It is NOT our job to promote genres from underground status on Wikipedia. uncivil disagreement Acknowledged already. What further did I do? "they maintain obvious elements of mathcore" smacks of WP:OR, "Identify the band based on what the band identifies themselves as" no, we identify the majority of the band's genre based on third-party sources, lead included. See WP:RS for that policy. Primary sources are allowed but we must keep them to a minimum, and we certainly cannot make them what overall identifies them. If you think that's backwards, Wikipedia isn't for you. Did I answer all your questions and points? dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: Hi there, thanks for replying - to start I am not the same person as BeefcakeYT as you accused me of in the revision history, and I can do whatever you need for me to prove this. To refute your first point - the Lead should be accurate to the band - many have already stated that it would be more accurate to define TDEP as Mathcore, but they are also stating that it would be better to rather use a descriptor (metalcore) that is inaccurate. I don't see a reason to sacrifice the accuracy of a Wikipedia article to use a broader term. "What further did I do?" - Well for starters, you called people an idiot in the talk page, called people edit warriors, etc. None of these things are pertinent or in anyway helpful to a civil discussion on how we should define TDEP in the lead - even though you have acknowledged it you continue to insult people in the revision history and talk page, I'm asking for it to be acknowledged and cease. No one has provoked name calling, a disagreement on genre on Wikipedia should not aggravate you. Identifying the band based on what they identify as, as well as what the majority of fanbases identify them as, as well as what a majority of music news outlets and etc. define them as, is probably what the lead should do - maintain accuracy. I don't see why the Wiki lead should strive to be different from popular opinion and literally how the band defines themselves as, the edit has been backed by primary sources. A genre in the lead should not have to be so controversial so it is both safer and more accurate to use what the band literally defines themselves as. Rabbitgears (talk) 17:57, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

List of 'mathcore' bands. Most of these also have 'mathcore' written in their summary, not 'metalcore'. DannyMusicEditor, please don't be ignorant about something that has been confirmed as not only okay, but correct across multiple Wikipedia articles, such as [CAR_BOMB], The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza, and Ion Dissonance. --Beefcakeyt (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

"Did I answer all your questions and points?" Please don't go MIA if you can't answer this question. If anyone agrees with DannyMusicEditor, please help me understand and answer my question/point. Beefcakeyt (talk) 18:26, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

So has a consensus being reached on this yet? OBLIVIUS (talk) 01:07, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@OBLIVIUS: Some of these editors were blocked for (unintentional or not) meatpuppetry. It's stalled a bit since then. I don't know what to say. Most people war for mathcore and then as soon as it gets there someone changes it to metalcore just hours later. Personally I choose metalcore or just metal for the more neutral option. dannymusiceditor ^oops 13:55, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, for what its worth I also agree with metalcore. Shame about the other editors but it has stopped the vandalism. OBLIVIUS (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Grindcore in infobox

I've rarely seen the band been called grindcore or any of their albums with the exception of their debut. Just wondering if any one agrees on the removal of grindcore in the infobox, the other four genres fit the band so much better in my opinion. OBLIVIUS (talk) 00:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

There is a reason it says "(early)". dannymusiceditor ^oops 00:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

It's just feels pointless to me as it represents one album rather than the band it's self.OBLIVIUS (talk) 18:33, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I count one, two, three, four, five references in the body of the article which hold support of it. I haven't looked at their content yet so my point might be moot, but at the moment it looks like the support for grindcore is pretty firm. dannymusiceditor ^oops 20:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

How many times?

This article mentions the name of the band SIX times in the first three paragraphs. I think that's pretty hilarious (and tedious.) Hamster Sandwich (talk) 20:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Well I took a crack at smoothing out that unwieldy beast of a header section. I don't really like that the name of an earlier band is mentioned in there, that info should go in the "History" section.... and I REALLY DO NOT LIKE the lack of citations for any of the material that has made an affirmation of facts. You might know it's true... I might know it's true... but that don't make it necessarily so. I am shocked to find this has been rated so highly on the quality scale. My only purpose here was to try to make that section a bit more readable. Shocked. Hamster Sandwich (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2018 (UTC)