Talk:The Bailey

There's a problem with this whole article... there is no such street called "The Bailey". There are two streets which run along the peninsula: North Bailey, and South Bailey. The latter is an extension of the the former, but the two together don't change their name! However, it might be fair to say that "The Bailey" is an alternative/nickname for the peninsula itself. DWaterson 18:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is a nickname for the entire peninsular, I think it's a name for the whole street. The peninsular also includes Palace Green, which I would not sya is part of The Bailey. KingStrato 19:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I would generally say that the Castle and Cathedral *are* on "the Bailey", even though they front Palace Green, rather than North or South Bailey. Similarly for the buildings in The College. In particular, we call Castle "a Bailey college", not "a Palace Green college".

Given that "the Bailey" is a purely informal name with no official status, I think, perhaps, the best thing would be to move this page to Durham Peninsula or The Peninsula, Durham, and rewrite to reflect a more general overview of the area, which would include North and South Bailey. I appreciate that neither of these names is strictly formal, though would be accurate as a description. However, such a page would rapidly start to duplicate text already included in Durham etc. DWaterson 19:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

'Durham Peninsula' has no particular official status either; it is merely a technical description of the area. Wikipedia policies seem to indicate that we should use the most common term for the area. In my experience, that is 'bailey' rather than 'peninsula'; but this may vary between different groups of Durham residents. TSP 12:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I've changed my mind, I think the Bailey is the whole block of land in the middle of the meander, not just the street. North Bailey and South Bailey are the streets. One running north of the bailey and the other, well, south. It may also be called the peninsular, but The Baliey is the more common name. KingStrato 20:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Results

To clarify the archived vote on this subject, after a couple of vote changes and non-standard completion of the voting form (such as expressing an opinion in the discussion without submitting a clear vote), there was no overall agreement, the results being 50/50:

For

• DWaterson
• sjorford
• Robdurbar

Against

• KingStrato
• TSP
• RPC

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 08:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The Bailey → Durham Peninsula – More accurate name applied to the whole area, rather than this which strictly applies only to the street itself

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• I'd say support - although Bailey is often used as a name for the whole area, it can also just refer to the street(s) and the adjacent colleges. The name Peninsula is just as common, and less ambiguous, as it always refers to the whole area, Bailey, Palace Green, Castle, Cathedral and all. — sjorford (talk) 22:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
• !-I think i'll oppose on the basis that peninsula is actually more vague; it could include the market square, for example, whereas 'bailey', which is what we are describing here, doesn't Robdurbar 10:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)-!
  • Well, the article seems to mix the various definitions at the moment; I'm of the opinion that an article about the peninsula as a whole -- with or without the market square, which is kind of a crossing point anyway -- is more useful than one just about the main street. — sjorford (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

• oppose In my time at Durham I never heard it called "The Peninsular", I did hear it called "The Bailey" on a daily basis.

• oppose The whole street is The Bailey, regardless of whether the formal naming has divided it into North and South. RPC 09:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Nobody's disputing that, are they?? — sjorford (talk) 12:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Well, I would argue that 'peninsula' is just as vague a term. I would say that its start/end is far less certain. The bailey starts where owengate comes off that other road; there used to be a gatehouse there to mark it. It is then generally used to mean the whole peninsula 'beyond' that. Perhaps 'Durham Peninsula' or 'The Peninsula, Durham' could redirect here and be emboldened in the intro, to show that this has, effectively, two titles? Robdurbar 10:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that 'peninsula' is not a precise term either, but AFAIK there is no official name for the specific area which appears on maps, etc, that would be superior. 'Peninsula' is at least the geographical term used to describe the land formation, and, for example, in the City Council's Local Plan [1], the term 'peninsula' or 'Peninsula' is used 37 times, but 'Bailey' appears only 7 times, 6 of which are in the context of 'North Bailey' or 'South Bailey', and only once does the term 'The Bailey' appear. I suspect this indicates even the local Planners get confused over the preferred name :)

I agree with sjorford that an article based on the main street only is too limited, and it would be more useful to rename and widen the focus of the article to encompass the whole area, including Palace Green, The College, the riverbanks, Prebends Bridge, etc, as long as the text doesn't just become a pointless duplication - which was why I suggested a vote. DWaterson 18:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Really, such an article should duplicate all the material on the peninsula in the Durham article, and then expand on it. — sjorford (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yep, well for me the planning thing is proof enough that 'peninsula' is more commonly used, I'm happy to change it; I've already made a few edits to allow it to try and cover both the bailey/peninsula and to explain the terms. Robdurbar 00:16, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

More Discussion

Isn't a bailey often used to refer to the hill or mound that a castle is built on? I've never hear anyone use peninsula to refer to the area that the castle is on. I'd tend to use peninsula for a headland, rather than a patch of land surrounded by a horseshoe-shaped river.Sbird 08:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

yes, that's the normal usage. But nobody in Durham uses "bailey" to mean the castle mound, nobody in Durham uses "peninsula" to refer to the peninsula area, and pretty much everyone in Durham uses 'the bailey' to refer to the peninsula area. Stevekeiretsu 12:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but those are the two names it Durham. I think 'Bailey' is used for the area around a castle keep, part of which is now this land. 'Peninsula' is used in this context somewhat figuratively due to the geography of Durham Robdurbar 09:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be useful to have a map of the relevant area in this article? While those of us who have spent time in Durham are clear on the reasons for the name, people coming to this article may not find it so easy. MrTrev 00:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've had a search for one, or an overhead photo ; Im unclear about the copyright rules on maps though Robdurbar 00:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Congestion charge?

Shouldn't this article mention the congestion charge zone? 213.249.235.86 09:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Article title

I think the title of this article is hopelessly confusing. It is not clear whether it refers to the peninsula as a whole or specifically to North and South Bailey. To say that some people refer to the whole peninsula as the Bailey is to miss the point that the name Bailey is ambiguous, whereas calling it The Peninsula is not. I think the article about the peninsula should be located at The Peninsula, Durham. If we have an article called The Bailey, it should be specifically about North Bailey and South Bailey, because that is what the average person would expect (principle of least surprise). And the claim made above that everyone in Durham calls the peninsula the Bailey is a claim that cannot be supported by editors asserting they live in Durham, as such assertions cannot be verified. For all we know editors who claim they live in Durham might actually live in Timbuktu or Vladivostock. It also happens to be WP:OR. I don't see any reliable sources saying this is the normal name. Reliable publications like Margot Johnson's seem to generally call it the peninsula or the Durham peninsula etc. James500 (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2018 (UTC)