Talk:Tewodros I

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Cambridge source

@Magherbin: A direct quote from the source has been given in my edit summary [1], so why do you want to take it to the talkpage? Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 06:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria:, There's issues with plagiarism, Adal/Walasma is the same meaning just a play on words here. Magherbin (talk) 06:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: prove it with sources, it would some that Tewodros I died during transition of Ifat and Adal, both covered in Walashma dynasty article, if there are inaccuracies here introduce more reliable sources than Cambridge that say he was killed by Adalites. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 06:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Adal Sultanate was established in 1415 under the son of the previous Ifat Sultanate after years of exile in Yemen. Safe bet to go with Walashma per Cambridge source, or you'll have to come with sources that say otherwise. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria:, Lets not base our conclusions on wikipedia articles, now Taddesse Tamrat states Adal was founded in 1363 thats well before Tewodros was born, see p.285-286 [2] and the Cambridge reference makes no mention of an Ifat-Adal transition, it explicitly mentions Adal. On p.149 the cambridge source itself details Adal was founded in the 1300s by Haqaddin and co agreeing with Tamrat. Magherbin (talk) 07:25, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria:, There's no ref bombs needed in this article on interpreting what Tadesse means or founding period, I just posted that reference to make it clear to you that the Cambridge article is not talking about a transition period but since you want clear cut quotes, here is Abir's ""Though of relatively little consequence, the war with Adal exasperated the Ethiopian monarchs and both Dawit's sons, Tewodros and Ishaq, it seems died in campaigns against the Adalite.." [3] p.27 full link [4]. I have no issues with Walasma princes being added but removal of Adalite is unnecessary. Magherbin (talk) 08:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: On the contrary, you are implying Adal was founded earlier by Haqq-al Din II, because this ruler moved of Ifat (stil a sultan of Ifat) to the capital of future Adal, still not the founding of Adal per Taddesse Tamrat or Cambridge. As the Cambridge source also say the descendants of Haqq al-Din II and Se'adedin were clearly referred to as Adalite kings not they themselves. The source also says which were as seen in the quotes. We can further dispute this Talk:Adal Sultanate if you so prefer and involve other editors. I have more sources that say Adal was founded began 1415 or after. The direct quote on page 155 is still the most accurate term (Walashma), and neither of what you seem to interpret from page 149 Cambridge or Tadesse Tamrat convinces me that Adal was founded earlier. I will add some more sources that say Adal starter later. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria:, the reference is implying that not me, not sure why you're not seeing this perhaps we might need WP:3O as I havent been able to convince you of the interpretation here. My interpretation is accurate yours is too since you obviously copied it word by word but stating mine is inaccurate is wrong. We dont need ref bombs here on topics outside the scope of the edit in question, if you notice the Tadesse reference I made was just an example to prove my point. I have provided the reference above which mentions Tewodros by name and is relevant for this discussion, I suggest you not skip over it. Magherbin (talk) 09:35, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: I agree, involvement from other editors might be needed. I did read up on your content disputes on Talk:Adal Sultanate with for example retired Wikipedian @Ragnimo:, and from reading Adal Sultanate article, there seems to be a consensus that Adal Sultanate was founded by Sabr ad-Din III after his return from exile in Yemen in 1415. That the term Adal however itself was older. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria:, Dont ping editors that I have had disagreements with in the past, this is called WP:VOTESTACKING and not appropriate for consensus building also it seems you want to further the point of what you believe to be the founding of Adal to imply Tewodros wasnt killed by Adalites, this is called WP:SYNTH, thats not how sourcing works on wikipeida. Magherbin (talk) 10:11, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: Read again the editor has retired. Talk:Adal Sultanate has showed the clear differences of opinions, but the consensus on Adal Sultanate article, and what i encountered in most sources is that Adal Sultanate was founded after 1415, this is not synthesis. I would like to focus on content and i called on you out your misinterpretation and inaccuracies of sources, your baseless accusations doesn't change that. Now let univolved editors weigh in. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 10:25, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

The content disputes i've had on other pages had nothing to do with the death of Tewodros, you still have no response on the references I provided that states Tewodros was killed by Adal. Instead you're reviewing talk page on another article instead of providing a reference that states Tewodros wasnt killed by Adal. I research these topics independently and dont rely on wikipedia. Another example is the entry of Tewodros from Encyclopaedia Aethiopica see p.930 [5]. The full passage can be read here [6] Magherbin (talk) 22:13, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: I didn't respond to your reference, because you didn't gave the full quote, i provided it below along with the content on before the quote. Tewodros I was so close to the end of Ifat Sultanate and start of Adal sultanate, Abir may have been an error (others can weigh in on this). I added two more sources (including another Cambridge) that say Sa'ad ad-Din II was killed during Yeshaq I reign (1414-1429) the successor of his brother Tewodros I. As the majority of sources indicate, the Walashma were not referred to as Adal by historians/chroniclers until afer the death of Sa'ad ad-Din II, the last ruler of Ifat, and the return of his sons from Yemen. This is a transition from Ifat to Adal, can we agree on that? According to vast majority of sources, say it was after 1415. Walashma is the least controversial term, Adalites potentially (probably, a factual historical inaccuracy) because it was still Ifat. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Its not an error when texts state that Tewodros died at the hands of Adal including the Cambridge text, this only indicates that it was established by that time. The academics would simply state Ifat they're not going to fail to identify the difference, even Tadesse states this on [7]p.291: '"Dawit’s immediate successors - Tewodros (Oct. 1412 - June 1413) and Yishaq (1413 - 30) - persistently continued their father's aggressive policy towards Adal, and probably, both of them lost their lives there."'. The death of Sa'ad ad-Din is disputed between Dawit and Yeshaq, there's no clear cut dates these are just estimates hence an attempt to have a definite date is futile. Magherbin (talk) 09:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: I agree with you that our discussion does establish a timeline problem. When we have conflicting sources, it's best to use up to date sources, Abir Mordechai & Tadesse Tamrat are old publiciations, contradicted by many newer sources. Because we have a conflicting timeline for the start of Adal Sultanate and the end of Ifat Sultanate, that's what it makes controversial if you try to choose one version of history, you want your prefered version (Adalite) before 1415, i think probably after 1415 is more correct. But there's a even better term for this small detail that is not controversial/potentially inaccurate, namely >> Walashma [8], anyways i spend too much time on this, let other editors weigh in. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 11:50, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The issue is not dates but your claim that i'm misinterpreting the sources, atleast we are now making progress since you seem to understand Tadesse's point of view on the matter. Academia hasnt changed on this issue, tadesses work is still highly regarded. Cambridges source is mimicking tadesses view point and encyclopedia aethiopica was published in 2003. There isnt a case of massive shifts in academia especially regarding Adal Sultanate which is obscure due to the limited available texts we have on it. I'm waiting for the conflicting source here that states Tewodros was killed by another entity other than Adal. See also Brill Publishers, published just last year: '"The first Ethiopian King who bore the name Tewodros was Tewodros I (1413–1414). He reigned only for a short period of nine months (12th of October, 1413–23rd of June, 1414), and died during a military campaign against Muslim troops of ‘Adal sultanate."' [9]. Magherbin (talk) 17:30, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: I'm done going around in circles with you. Do not speak for me Magherbin. From what i see in Tadesse Tamrat source, Adal and Ifat are geographical definitions WP:CONTEXTMATTERS (and other editors can weigh in on this), read through page 285 to 287. Yes i thought you were misinterpreting the source due to lack of WP:COMPETENCE, or it could also be WP:SYNTH to push your prefered version. Tadesse Tamrat does not say Adal was founded between 1363-1373, it's your imagined/prefered/misinterpreted timeline. If this is true, there should be other sources backing this? Shift in academic studies yes it does both Abir (1980) and Cambridge volume 3 (1977) of which the quotes are in note 2,3 and 4. Note 2/3 Cambridge adali are geographical. Note 4 Abir does say Adalite, this is your prefered term, quote again Though of relatively little consequence, the war with Adal exasperated Ethiopian monarchs and both Dawit's sons, Tewodros (1412-1413) and Ishaq (1413-1430), it seems, died in campaigns against the Adalite and coastal muslims. I read doubt in Abir source. Newer sources are clear cut on when Adal begin, and who killed the last Ifat ruler, > Yeshaq I including another 1977's Cambridge source (Note 9). The quotes are below and i can find a dozen more. Yippee you found one recent source from BRILL publisher that supports your view, congratulations. The sources are still conflicting with each other. I already offered a neutral solution in my previous comment. I'm done engaging on this topic. Uninvolved editors can chip in. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:46, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

If Tadesse doesnt state this then why dismiss his publication as outdated? Whats the point of dismissing a reliable academic in this field? Do you know what you do when you believe a reliable source is publishing inaccurate information? You wait for them to correct it, you dont impose your views here using WP:OR, we arent editing in the form of academics but as mere editors. Even though I dont have the view point of yours i'm willing to compromise with his death due to '"Walasma princes or Adalites"', simply ignoring the references I posted it is not warranted. The term Adal is needed here due to the fact that it was a much stronger force than the previous state called Ifat Sultanate, which was near the Abyssinian border hence less dangerous to the state. As Tadesse stated Adal laid much further away across the awash river, hence why I believe the term should be kept. Magherbin (talk) 04:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magherbin: Based on what are you implying i ignored something? I posted the entire pages of 285-287 in the quotes so that others also can verify. I called you out for not reading his writings in context, and that Adal and Ifat were geographical terms (i also asked other editors to look into this), it doesn't take away from your misinterpretation which i repeatedly pointed in this discussion. I'm only agreeable with Walashma princes since it's the least controversial and only certainty of not being inaccurate. Again you are arguing Adal was before 1415, and you are reading Tadesse out of context to argue for a timeline, conflicted by many other sources that Ifat was still around till 1415, as provided in the quotes. This will go to another dispute resolution. Meanwhile a neutral uncontroversial compromise is possible in Walashma. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 04:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Well lets see what more editors think about this, I think our opinions on both sides seem clear here. I started an RFC, I think this should solve this. Every academic that speaks of Tewodros death cant be surely taking Tadesse or Maqrizi out of context. Especially when Tadesse clearly states on p.279-280 that Haqq ad-Din II was the founder of Adal which puts it at 1300s, he states further that Haq conquered Ifat from his relatives [10]. This explains why Tewodros was killed, Adal was much more powerful than Ifat which was essentially a vassal for Abyssinia. Was another Adal sultan assisting the Walasma prince? We dont know for sure but we know that Adal Sultanate existed even in the 1200's per accounts by Marco Polo [11] [12]. Magherbin (talk) 10:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

In reviewing the sources, and guided by mainly Cambridge, I think that no description would be adequate if the reader was not be aware by that point in the article that Tewodros had indeed been fighting princes of the Walashma dynasty, and that this became the Adal Sultanate. The intensity of the conflict seems to be, as you note, conflicting in the sources, but if that contradiction is still the situation in recent sources then that's also worth noting. Sorry to say "Write more lol" instead of an either-or response, but I do think that if the reader is told enough of the geopolitics during his time, then by the time Tewodros dies there's enough context to make the precise wording incidental. I won't be offended if you take out another 3O. SamuelRiv (talk) 06:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@SamuelRiv: Thank you for you opinion. There's enough content over this tiny detail, don't want to bludgeon this and discourage other editors to chip in. I will take out another 3O, since it still between two editors. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 03:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I dont think you can just take out another third opinion until you get the answer you want, I suggest other avenues including reliable sources noticeboard, it isnt appropriate to keep requesting opinions, it would now exceed "third opinion". Magherbin (talk) 03:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Sources and Quotes

Claimed founding of Adal before 1415 ? Tadesse Tamrat

[13].

Mention of the term Adalite, Abir Mordechai pages 26-27 [14]

Historical background of the term Adal, old kingdom pre Walashma dynasty (date 1332), Adal in geographical terms and the Adal Sultanate of the Walashma dynasty, Cambridge page 149 & pages 154-155 The Cambridge History of Africa

Date of establishment of Adal, or mention of Ifat Sultanate in 1415 or after Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 08:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Historical dictionary of Ethiopia. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

The Genealogy of the later Walashma' Sultans of Adal and Harar. Jstor.

A Modern History Of Somalia: Nation And State In The Horn Of Africa, Revised, Updated, And Expanded Edition.

The Cambridge History of Islam

The African Prester John and the Birth of Ethiopian-European Relations, 1402-1555.

Encyclopedia of African History

References

Quotes

References

RfC about the death of the Emperor

Should the article state Tewodros was killed by: A. Walasma princes or B. Adal Sultanate? Magherbin (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Comment This is one of the worst written RFC's I have ever seen. Seriously! At the very least- give us what sources support each option. Cannot comment on RFC as written. If you revise- please let me know. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: I have put this forward to DRN earlier, but was closed down because ANI Wikipedia:Administrators'_ noticeboard/Incidents#User:Magherbin_pov-push_behaviour was still open (mutiple avenues not allowed). After ANI is concluded, i will put this forward to DRN, which is probably more suitable. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

• When apparently reliable sources contradict each other, cite them both and mention that there's a disagreement. Try it like this:

Tewodros' death is a matter of controversy. [Source X] say Q, but [Source Y] says R.

Here is an expansion of Q.

Here is an expansion of R.

Yes? DS (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@DragonflySixtyseven: No. The death is not an controversy, the dispute is about the term Walashma and Adal, which one is historically more accurate. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but the RfC is about the death of the emperor. Other disputes should be discussed in other sections, lets keep this one focused on the RfC question.VR _talk 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle:, what about now? Magherbin (talk) 20:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

This is better. I was the DRN volunteer who closed your case actually- now that you have an RFC going- see where it goes- maybe it will answer the question- if enough people comment- it may even provide consensus and negate the need for the DRN. We are supposed to be the last stop before the ANI. If you reformat it like you suggested- it will be good. And I'm sorry for snapping about it and not being more helpful to start. That was rude and unkind. Nightenbelle (talk) 01:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I opened the DRN, Magherbin opened this RFC. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment In order to make the term Adalite not incidental in (Abir and BRILL Publisher), Magherbin is pushing back the date the founding of Adal Sultanate from well established consensus after 1415 to 1370's by reading a source out of context (Tadesse Tamrat, see Note 1) which talks about Adal in geographical terms (Other editors can help establish consensus whether the source was taken out of context or not). Even in the slighest very very remote possiblity that Tadesse Tamrat meant Adal Sultanate was founded in 1370's, it's would then be the only source that claims this, since no other sources supports this date, and least not that i can find. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Everyone is misinterpreting the source based on your argument since I provided multiple sources that explicitly state Adal Sultanate was behind the death of the subject. Lets also go to Bahru Zewde p.64, Haqadin II and Sa'addin are named as those who established the sultanate of Adal. [15]. Amelie Chekroun also mentioned sources stating Tewodros was killed after Sa'adaddin's children returned from Yemen. [16]. Magherbin (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@@Magherbin: Stop speaking for other editors. My arguments are sound, and i provided multiple sources above that Adal came to be after the return of Sa'ad ad-Din II children from Yemen, i said this multiple times in the discussion above, adding Amelie Chekroun is adding to the point i was already making. I will have to repeat this again and again, Magherbin stop pretending like you provided a bunch of sources on the subject (Tewodros I). You provided two sources in total (Abir and BRILL), Abir language in the source wasn't clear and left room for doubt. As for Bahru Zewde, we will need more scrutiny, and verify whether he's quoting Tadesse Tamrat as primary citation, i'll need to see the page to see the whole context, because context matters here. And again if it somehow supported your far fetched argument. Many more (old, new, various) diverse sources say Ifat sultanate was still around until 1415, that Adal came after 1415, that he last Ifat leader was killed by Tewodros succesor Yeshaq I. Disregarding all those reliable sources (both new and old, various sources) for your interpretation of Tadesse Tamrat's position is not done. we will have to compare those conflicting sources on veracity, prominence and whether there's a shift in academia, and whether (your interpretation) of Tadesse view is mainstream, and what is fringe or minority view. And that's only after your interpretation of the source proves to be correct. As i said before and i'll say it again, there's a neutral option(Walashma) as the article now stands per Cambridge. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Quit side tracking the issue here, this isnt about the formation of Adal Sultanate. Amelies source stated Tewodros was killed after Sad'addins children returned from Yemen and Bahru source states Adal was founded by the walasma princes much like the cambridge reference. Third opinion came to that conclusion as well, hence disregarding the references by posting Adal foundation dates is not how we source on here. Bahru/tadeesse are not "editors" but historians. How can Bahru Zewdes text be misinterpreted he specifically states Adal Sultanate was founded by the Walasma princes hence there's no room for your assumption that he was referring to an Adal region instead. Adal Sultanate was responsible for most emperors being killed in battle during this time period including Na'od and Eskender. The current article as it stands isnt a neutral option at all, its your POV. I only bring up these sources to explain that it is you who is misinterpreting it not me. Unless you can find references stating another entity other than Adal Sultante killed this emperor, this dicussion is fruitless, i'm not dwelling on statehood foundation of an obscure region like Adal thats barely been studied by researchers. Stating I provided two sources when u provided essentially zero on the subject other than Adal foundation references which doesnt mention Tewodros at all, yet you're insisting your zero sources has leverage over mine. Magherbin (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support the formula offered by DragonflySixtyseven as best way of resolving this in keeping with WP:NPOV.VR _talk 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)