Talk:Tenedos/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Bozcaada is the official name of the island and internationally recognized as such. The same applies to Gökçeada the official name of the island and also internationally recognized as such.

Bozcaada is the official name of the island and internationally recognized as such. For instance if someone wants to send a letter and writes "Tenedos" as the address, then the letter will be returned. (If there is a return address) This is also the case even when someone writes the official name Bozcaada along the obsolete name "Tenedos".

The same applies to Gökçeada the official name of the island and also internationally recognized as such. And not the obsolete name of "Imros". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.76.42 (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I have answered this at Talk:Imbros. I will add here only that, of course, Tenedos is not obsolete; it is the normal English name for the island, and the only one I knew before encountering this article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not get this, how can the name of this island NOT be the name of the island. Its name is Bozcaada. It is not a historic name, not the "other" name, but its only official name. The name you would use if you want your mail to get there. What part is not clear? How does Wikipedia and editors allow this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.153.82 (talk) 03:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

For the same reason the Turkish wikipedia uses tr:Londra, not London, the official anme of the City and of Greater London. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

No PMAnderson, naming the page of this island Tenedos instead of Bozcaada is not like naming the page of London in the Turkish wikipedia for "Londra", or naming the page of København in the English wikipedia for "Copenhagen". Rather, it would be like naming the page of Istanbul in the English wikipedia for "Costantinople", or the page of Izmir for "Smyrna". This point should be rather obvious.

Which leaves your claim that Tenedos is the name under which the island is known to most users of the English language today. In itself this is not a sufficiently good reason for diverting from the general rule of naming a place according to its officially recogniced name (or a derived form of this). Only if the officiallly recogniced name is unfamiliar to most users of the English language today this would be sufficient for diverting from the general rule. A quick search on Google (English pages only) confirms my impression that this is not the case. Tenedos (including other meanings): about 46,500 results, Bozcaada (no other meanings): about 51,100 results.

So why is this made an issue? WK-en (talk) 11:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Page move

I moved the page back to Tenedos, as that name is by far the more commonly used in English source, as can clearly be seen by comparing the results of this [1] search to these [2] [3]. Athenean (talk) 21:50, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

So what about these: [4], [5]? (Note: English pages only) I hate to repeat myself, but this is not a competition on which name that gets the most hits in various google-searches. The question here is wether or not the official name - Bozcaada - is well established in the English language or not. And it clearly is, so why are we at all discussing this issue? WK-en (talk) 06:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Raw google searches mean nothing, as they contain all kinds of junk (mostly commercial sites, e.g. cheapbozcaadahotels.tr and stuff like that). Only coverage among reliable sources matters, so that's why I used google books (google scholar is acceptable also). Accordingly, Tenedos is by far the most common usage in English among reliable sources. Athenean (talk) 06:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Tenedos is a historical name just like New Amsterdam for New York or Lutetia for Paris. If the article were for the medieval history of the island the name of the article may be History of Tenedos. But this article is about a modern settlement and district. The official and popular name is Bozca Ada (or Bozcaada). So I moved the name to Bozca Ada. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

No, Tenedos is still widely used by English language publications, and in fact much more frequently than Bozca Ada. This is the English, not Turkish wikipedia. If you want the page moved, please post a "requested move" on the talkpage instead of reverting. However, be aware that every time someone requested the page moved to "Bozca Ada" in the past, the requested move was rejected, for the reasons I mentioned above. Athenean (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion between "Tenedos" and "Bozcaada". However, the currently chosen form "Bozca Ada" seems quite unacceptable to me, as it is not the current official orthography (Turkish spelling is officially "Bozcaada", alternatively "Bozca ada", but never, as far as I can tell, with the second word capitalized). I have to suspect Nedim Ardoğa chose that spelling only because the correct "Bozcaada" already had an edit history, so the page couldn't be moved there without admin help. In fact, "Bozcaada" is even protected [6], apparently just in order to prevent these types of naming wars; as a result of this move, "Bozcaada", which is a common legitimate link target, is now a broken double redirect that can't be fixed without admin intervention. (If I didn't assume good faith so much, I'd also have to suspect he deliberately chose to make the move through the detour of yet another misspelling "Bozccada"[7], making sure through this trick that now the original title "Tenedos" also got an edit history, making the move back likewise impossible. Dirty "redirect-scorching" trick.) As a sign of good faith, I strongly urge Nedim to ask an administrator to move the page back to the status quo ante, since that at least is one correctly spelled version; then we can talk about "Bozcaada" and all arguments will be given a fair hearing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Reply to above remarks:

• To Future Perfect at Sunrise: Partially correct guess. Moving the name to Bozcaada isn't permitted. But all the same, Bozca Ada isn't wrong. Bozca is the proper noun and Ada means island. It is both the name of the island and the name of the district center.
• To Athenian.Edit war is childish. But you should realize that your rationale is groundless. Bozcaada is a small island. Even in Aegean Sea there are more than ten islands which are bigger than Bozcaada and nobody out of Aegean World know anything about the island (except maybe Iliad devotees.) So international usage of the name is out of question. (By the way, my search engine yields more outcomes for Bozcaada than Tenedos) On the other hand even if you still feel that the local name must be prohibited, please note that while the international name of the well known capital of PROC is Pekin, the local name Beijing is preferred in Wikipedia. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Summing up so far:

• It should have been obvious from the start that any move of the page would be contentious, so the move should never have been made without a prior formal discussion.
• The present state of affairs is untenable, because one of the most crucial redirects, the one that is actually the intended target of the move, Bozcaada, is currently broken. This must be fixed immediately.
• The present state of affairs can't be the ultimate solution, because unlike Bozcaada, which is the official Turkish name, Bozca Ada is a non-standard spelling. Nedim may claim it "isn't wrong", but it still isn't what Turkish actually uses, and it's not attested in any reliable source I've seen.
• We probably all agree that Tenedos is the preferred name in English in contexts dealing with historical situations (including its role in Homer, anything before the early 20th century, the military and strategic issues over sovereignty in the early 20th century, and discussions relating to the Greek minority). Some editors have argued that this fact alone would not force the choice of page title, as it could be regarded as merely an historical name, analogous to "Constantinople" or "Smyrna" vs. "Istanbul" and "Izmir".
• So the remaining question is, setting historical situations aside, what is the stance of English reliable sources in contexts of purely present-day geography? I can't see an awful lot of "Bozcaada" so far, but I'm open to being convinced either way.
• Can we please all agree that the fact of local official status of "Bozcaada", in and by itself, is not a decisive argument for our naming decisions? The decisive factor is and will remain English usage and nothing else.
• While we discuss, I am going to ask an uninvolved administrator to move the page back to the status quo ante, if for no other reason than to fix the broken redirects. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (April 2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Tenedos → Bozcaada — Procedural listing. Not personally convinced myself, but let's have a regular discussion here and see where it goes. For initial arguments, see above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

• Permanently Oppose Tenedos has been the English name of this island since the English began speaking about the Aegean in the Renaissance, and it still is. To Tenedos they come (Troilus and Cressida Prol. 7), As an anglophone, I object to being asked for the seventh time to move this island from the name we have always called it, to one I would not know if it were not for these interminable naming debates; there is no consensus for this proposal. In addition, the use of the island in Shakespeare, Homer, Vergil, Appian, Athenaeus, and the Treaty of Lausanne is almost certainly Primary Usage about the island; ignoring the island's past is like looking at the street signs when deciding on moving Troy to Hissarlik. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC).
• Comment User:Nedim Ardoğa has been canvassing on the talk pages of other turkish wp editors. 12345--Anothroskon (talk) 07:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

• Move it to Bozcaada:In encyclopaedias as well as maps, the proper nouns can be written in two ways: In a few cases where the name is well known internationally, the international name can be used. (examples Germany, Greece). But this is more or less an exception. In all other cases, the local names are used. I'd given the example of Beijing (international name Pekin) . The same goes for Astana (former Akmolinsk ) Turkmenbaşy (former Krasnovodsk), Bishkek (former Frunze). These are all capital cities and there are immensly more well known than a small Aegean island. So it is obvious that the name of article should be Bozcaada. Of course in the article the historical name can be mentioned. But keeping the historical name which doesn't appear on maps in the name of the article is against common sense. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. In the discussion above, "Tenedos" has been acknowledged to be the overwhelming favorite in historical reference, and alternatively dismissed as familiar only to "Iliad devotees." Well, the problem for Bozcaada proponents, in short, is that English-language notability of (and reference to) this topic is almost entirely historical reference on the part of antiquity-devotees. Thus, at Google Books, 98,500 references to Tenedos (an absolutely small number: Iliad devotees) vs. 6,409 for Bozca Ada and Bozcaada combined (an order of magnitude smaller: so the Iliad devotees win by WP:COMMONNAME). In short, "Tenedos" is overwhelmingly the most frequent form of reference to this place in English, which is exactly what WP:AT wants us to determine. Wareh (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. I was open to being convinced otherwise, if there had been evidence that English usage has decisively shifted towards the Turkish name when it comes to present-day contexts, similarly to how it has shifted from "Smyrna" to "Izmir". But since no such evidence seems to be forthcoming, I concur with Wareh and Pmanderson above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Data

• Tenedos is between 10 to 15 times more common than Bozcaada. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC).

• I don’t like using hit statistics. (Some may be mirror pages etc.) But since book statistics have been presented, I must say that in both yahoo and google there are four times as much Bozcaada hits than Tenedos hits (multi language search). Then why is Tenedos more common in books? I guess because, all books about Bozcaada are actually about the history of the island and not about the modern town (except for a few touristic booklets.) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 05:35, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

  We are not interested in multiple languages; this Wikipedia is in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd put it this way, borrowing Nedim Ardoğa's concession. What "all books about x are actually about" should be reflected in how Wikipedia treats x encyclopedically and names its article on x.

The only out I see is if it can be shown that (1) there are two distinct topics (historical and present/recent), (2) the English WP:RS prevalently use different names for them. Then we might have the option of splitting the page (given enough article text to justify it) to reflect the two topics.

As long as the topics are unified, though, we decide which one is more encyclopedically important (and therefore reflected in the title) by the "what the books about this are about" test, i.e., the prevalence of usage in the combined English RS on the two topics. WP:COMMONNAME points us to the English-language RS. We might wish the English RS allotted their attention otherwise than how they do, but until that allotment changes, it seems our title is settled for us. Wareh (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

It is comparatively easy to find maps and tour guides that say Bozcaada, as it is comparatively easy to find maps and guides that use Firenze. In both cases, the reason is that the local signs (in Turkish or Italian) use the local forms; but we are neither, and our purposes are not the same. We should use Florence, none the less; other works of general reference do.

Works of general reference do use Izmir for the post-1922 city; that's the chief reason we should do so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose move per Septentrionalis and others. The English usage is "Tenedos" despite the Turkish official name and the predominantly Turkish population of the island. One doesn't hear "Japan" very often spoken by locals on those islands, and yet that's where we have the article, despite an increase in the English use of "Nippon" and "Nihon". --Bejnar (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

As a reply to the comment "it is easy to find guidebooks that use the name Bozcaada", in the above discussion, is not only guidebooks and similar which use this name. It is also present in Council of Europe papers [8], novels [9], navigation books [10], viticulture bbooks [11] [12] (the island giving its name to a grape is not irrelevant), history books [13] [14], memoirs [15], law books [16] zoology papers [17] and whatnot. Filanca (talk) 16:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

It is time that we separate the article of the island from that of the town. Filanca (talk) 06:50, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The island and the town ara separate entities deserving their own articles. I am awaiting for any objections. If there is no serious objection, I will start the article 'Bozcaada' for the town. Filanca (talk) 21:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (August 2011)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Tenedos → Bozcaada – per WP:COMMONNAME & User modern names. Relisting. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

When there are many "derived words", Books Ngram Viewer is problematic.

Tenedos is well-known name since Herodotus' era. Results of researchs on various search engines include "derived words" such as HMS Tenedos (HMS Tenedos (1812), HMS Tenedos (1870), former HMS Tenedos, HMS Tenedos (H04), Tenedos frigate), Russian Tenedos class frigate, Greek minelayer Tenedos, USS Tenedos, Fort Tenedos, spider "Tenedos", Tenedos Bay, etc.......... in addition to historical contexts such as Tenedos in Ilyad (i.e. Lord Supreme of Tenedos), Battle of Tenedos.

• According to GeoNames Search

as seat of a second-order administrative division:

Bozcaada (Approved), Boğçaada (Variant), Tenedos (Variant)

as island:

Bozcaada (Approved) ada (Generic), Bokcha Adasi (Variant), Bozdzhaada Island (Variant), Tenédos,Nísos (Variant) Tenedos Island (Variant)

I think GeoNames Search is very helpful but it is not almighty.

• According to google books (1923-)

• "Tenedos" -Llc (1923-2011) 415

• "Bozcaada" -Llc (1923-2011) 407

But I think this result includes a number of books and articles written in other language such as Turkish language. So we re-researched with adding word island:

• island "Tenedos" -Llc 441
  • We can find many historical usage of Tenedos such as The island of Tenedos off the mainland of Troas, Tenedos island in the Balkan War, Emperor offered the island of Tenedos, Island of Tenedos (now Bozcaada), Greek island of Tenedos　
• island "Bozcaada" -Llc 342
  • It's not easy for us to find historical usage of Bozcaada in this result.

In this situation, we can consider both Tenedos and Bozcaada is common name. And according to Use modern names, we'd better chose Bozcaada.

Takabeg (talk) 03:55, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Turkish name should be used for a place in Turkey. - Darwinek (talk) 18:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for the umpteenth time. Another move request? Didn't we just have one a few months ago? In fact, pretty much the entire talkpage consists of move requests by Turkish users. It's almost become like a rite of passage to start a move request to Bozcaada at some point. Yet, they have all been unsuccessful. And there is good reason for that. The name "Tenedos" is far more widely used among reliable English sources than the post-1970 name "Bozcaada". For example, a search on Google Books for Tenedos, limited to post-1950 English language sources returns 22,600 hits [18], most of them reliable sources, while a search of "Bozcaada" returns only about 2300 hits [19], and order of magnitude less. A similar search on Google Scholar returns even more lopsided results. There are several reasons for this. First, "Tenedos" has been the island's name from antiquity to 1970. Second, the name "Bozcaada" is a post-1970 invention as part of a process of Turkification and has never really caught on in the English world. Thus, any and all pre-1970 sources refer to it as Tenedos and only Tenedos. Third, Tenedos is a small, relatively insignificant island by any standard. It's main claim to fame is its association with the Iliad. Any source dealing with Tenedos in an archeological and/or mythological context, regardless of publication date, will obviously refer to it as "Tenedos". Since Tenedos' only other claim to fame is tourism, that pretty much leaves tourist guidebooks as the main English-language sources referring to it as "Bozcaada" (and also official government publications). But there is no question that among reliable English-language sources, Tenedos is by far the more widely used name. Athenean (talk) 23:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

User:Athenean made mistakes:

• 22,600 hits -> [20] 436 and this result includes many historical usage.

• 2300 hits -> [21] 407

About accuracy and inaccuracy of google books, see: Eretnids#Requested move

And you claims that the name "Bozcaada" is a post-1970 invention. But this is wrong information = invention of User:Athenean.

See:

• 1952 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica.

• 1911 edition of the United States Official Postal Guide.

Gökçeada is a post-1970 invention but "Bozcaada" (Bozja Ada, Bozdja Ada) is not invented name.

As long as I know, formerly Tenedos is more common name of this island (not only historical usage but also contemporary usage), but now Bozcaada is more common for contemporary usage.

-- Takabeg (talk) 02:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with "historical usage", nor is there anything wrong with my search. But even by your search, "Tenedos" is more common. Athenean (talk) 03:23, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

No. We must exclude

HMS Tenedos (HMS Tenedos (1812), HMS Tenedos (1870), former HMS Tenedos, HMS Tenedos (H04), Tenedos frigate), Russian Tenedos class frigate, Greek minelayer Tenedos, USS Tenedos, Fort Tenedos, spider "Tenedos", Tenedos Bay, Battle of Tenedos.

from 436 Tenedos / 407 Bozcaada.

And we must exclude historical usage such as

• "The island of Tenedos off the mainland of Troas" 1

• "The island of Tenedos off the mainland of Troas" 1

• "Greek island of Tenedos" 15

• "Island of Tenedos (now Bozcaada)" 11

Now I think you understand that Bozcaada is more common name of this island for modern usage (Use modern names).

-- Takabeg (talk) 03:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Nationalist nonsense. There is absolutely no reason to exclude the last four links. Tendentious wikilawyering. Athenean (talk) 04:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I think Takabeg's searches are highly problematic. For example, one of the sources he uses in support of "bozcaada" mentions bozcaada in parentheses, but uses "Tenedos" [22]. I'm sure I can find many other examples. Many sources mention "Bozcaada" in passing because it's the official name, but use Tenedos. use, not mention must be our criterion. Athenean (talk) 04:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Another excellent example [23]. Athenean (talk) 04:36, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

What ? Nationalist ? My researches are not related with any nationalisms. I only research in accordance with google books and Wikipedia:Naming conventions. I'm not a nationalist. Are you a nationalist ? Takabeg (talk) 04:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Calm down, see Use–mention distinction, understand why your search is problematic, and see how many modern sources still use Tenedos (even though they may mention "Bozcaada" for no other reason than it being the official name). Athenean (talk) 04:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm always calm. Because I am indeopendent from any nationalisms. Please get rid of Greek nationalistic prejudice, behave naturally like me, and read Wikipedia:Article titles, Wikipedia:Naming conventions, Wikipedia:I just don't like it. And don't provide wrong information such as post-1970 invention. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 04:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Two points: Athenean, can we please then get rid of the notion that "Bozcaada" is a "post-1970 invention"? Takabeg did conclusively prove that this is not the case. Takabeg: what exactly is the technical difference between Athenean's search that results in 23,000 hits [24], versus yours that results in 440? [25] I'm not getting which search parameters you actually changed, and why you think your version is more realistic. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Google books show "Tenedos" 67,000 results (all languages, in max). But when we investigate these results, most of them are empty. We cannot find 67,000 books and/or articles. In fact, google books show only 400s concretely. You can see Marcus's claim on Talk:Eretnids#Requested move. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 05:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

They appear to be the 19th and 45th page of exactly the same search. The first number is the number of hits Google estimates; the second is the number of links (always less than a thousand) it actually pulled into memory, which has very little to do with how common the word is, unless there are only a few dozen hits altogether. If we perform the same searches with a common word, like "island"; the 19th page shows 19 million hits; the 34th shows 331; yet would anybody argue that of the three search terms, "island" is the rarest? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course I'm not going insist that it's a post-1970 invention (and I stopped doing so a while ago), but even if the name "Bozcaada" is post-1071 invention, that doesn't really change anything. Tenedos is still more widely used, even if Bozcaada is sometime also mentioned in passing, regardless of the search parameters. Athenean (talk) 22:07, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

In fact the name Bozcaada was probably used since 15th century when Ottomans first landed (on the then-empty) island. See the 16th century Ottoman map in the article. Filanca (talk) 18:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: Obviously Tenedos is the most established term in international bibliography, even per nom. If we take also into account the de jure political status of the island I see no serious reason for such a move (it has been already several times rejected).Alexikoua (talk)

Maybe you would like to consider your opinion again in the light of what I wrote below. Bozcaada is also established in bibliography (save when referring to ancient history) and is more popular than Tenedos in scientific literature. Filanca (talk) 18:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Athenean. A Macedonian (talk) 21:29, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
• Relisted - I'm giving this discussion another week, or a clear consensus, whichever comes first. I'd like to see Takabeg's reply to Future Perfect's question above. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:01, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose You will see my reasons in the discussions above. Tenedos is a whole order of magnitude more common than Bozcaada (even if the usage split evenly among the derived senses of Tenedos, it would still be more common); it is the name this anglophone knew - I only met Bozcaada through this naming dispute; it is what anglophones have called this island since Shakespeare's time, and they still do. I am pleased to see that at least Takabeg is not asking to move Imbros, which the Turkish scholar cited in the first footnote uses without real comment - writing about the twentieth century history of the islands; but the situation is the same for both. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

  It is comparatively easy to find maps and tour guides that say Bozcaada, as it is comparatively easy to find maps and guides that use Firenze; Google Maps does. In both cases, the reason is that the local signs (in Turkish or Italian) use the local forms; but we are neither, and our purposes are not the same. We should use Florence, none the less; other works of general reference do.

• As a example the other way, works of general reference do use Izmir for the post-1922 city; that's the chief reason we should do so.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:01, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The case of Florence is not similar to Bozcaada. According to your "arguement", we will use Bozdja-Ada (United States Official Postal Guide) for Bozcaada and Constantinople for Istanbul :) Takabeg (talk) 05:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Bozcaada is becoming more and more used and its usage in 21st century is almost twice more than Tenedos (excluding historical papers) according to Google Scholar. Bozcaada is not only the name used on the island by the islanders but also is in modern day English usage. Filanca (talk) 23:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support: If you search Google Maps, you're not gonna be able to find the island using the name Tenedos but you will get directly to the island if you use the name Bozcaada. Moreover, when you search for "bozcaada island" you get 251 thousand links but when you search for "tenedos island" you get 132 thousand links. It's expected that scholar works on the island to use the name Tenedos as they're mostly historical works that cover centuries of history before the use of the name Bozcaada took over the use of the name Tenedos. If you look at most English travel guides on paper or online you'll see that the name Bozcaada is used. So, if you're a random person and try to learn more about this island you'd search for Bozcaada. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 23:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

For example, the Lonely Planet travel guide that seems to be very popular nowadays use the name Bozcaada as primary. It uses Bozcaada in it's eBook edition for Turkey 12 times but Tenedos is only used ones in the phrase "(formerly Tenedos)". TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 00:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, Wiki also says that Lonely Planet is the largest travel guide book. So, the most popular and largest travel guide provider uses the name "Bozcaada" instead of "Tenedos". TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 00:20, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Travel guides tend to follow the street signs too. There are travel guides (in English) titled München and Firenze; but we call those articles Munich and Florence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Let's check: Use of Florence: 100. Use of Firenze: 14. Use of Munich: 100. Use of München: 1. I believe it's safe to say that Lonely Planet got it right. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I noticed an other important factor; such as this document by the Council of Europe, the primary name used for this island is Bozcaada. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 02:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

A far more useful document for the substance of the article than its title; it confirms many of the questioned statements, such that both islands have been inhabited by Greeks since antiquity. The steps towards harmony which it notes ought to be included. But the European Community defers to the Turkish Government in naming the island; as it defers to the Greek Government in adding The former Yugoslav to the Republic of Macedonia. We, not being a diplomatic organization, are free to write in English, as this paper, by a Turkish academic in Oxford, does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a common practice to stick with one name for consistency in articles talking about history of a certain location as in the article you linked. It starts with the article from Treaty of Lausanne and moves from that so it's natural for it to use Imbros and Tenedos. However, the idea that Imbros and Tenedos are English names is unfounded. They're Greek in origin and the fact that they're used in English sentences doesn't make them English. So far, we have more google hits for "bozcaada island", Bozcaada is the only option to find the island using Google Maps, most popular and published travel guide uses the name "Bozcaada" and government and multinational organizations use the name "Bozcaada". I might have missed a few more. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Bozcaada is the more common modern usage, as well as being a historically common name on the island itself. Imperial warships named "HMS Tenedos" are not a reason not to adapt to the common modern usage. There were warships called "HMS Ceylon" yet the islands article is named Sri Lanka. Some of the opposition is about books that use the name "Bozcaada" being touristic ones. This is not true, there is a bibliography that spread to Examples:

• Council of Europe papers: Parliamentary Assembly - Working Papers - 2008 Ordinary Session [26],
• novels: Montgomery, R. A. The Brilliant Dr. Wogan [27],
• navigation books: Mediterranean pilot Great Britain Hydrographic Dept. [28]
• viticulture books: Lichine, Alexis (1968) Alexis Lichine's encyclopedia of wines & spirits, Knopf [29]
• biology papers: Botos, E. P.; Hajdú, E.; Borbás, É. (2003) Proceedings of the Eighth International Conference on Grape Genetics and Breeding International Society for Horticultural Science [30],
• history books: Taylor, Phil; Cupper, Pam (1989) Gallipoli, a battlefield guide Kangaroo Press [31]
• mythology books: Angel, J. L.; Mellink, Machteld J. (1986) Troy and the Trojan War Bryn Mawr [32],
• memoirs: Jones, Tristan (1999) Somewheres East of Suez Sheridan House [33]
• law books: Masud, Muhammad Khalid; Peters, Rudolph; Powers, David Stephan (2006) Dispensing justice in Islam: Qadis and their judgements BRILL [34]
• zoology papers: Folia zoologica Československá akademie věd [35]

Of course, in mythological and historical (ie, history before the 15th century) books using the name "Tenedos" makes more sense since that would be the name used then. That would explain many search results for "Tenedos". Filanca (talk) 15:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

To illustrate my point above (ie, "in mythological and historical books using the name "Tenedos" makes more sense") more clearly, it is like Istanbul being called Constantinople or Byzantium in a book about Byzantine history. Or, Mexico City called Tenochtitlan -- in books about the Aztec period, Tenochtitlan will always outnumber Mexico City. Therefore, when looking at which name is used more frequently, we must not count the historical uses and meanings. Fortunately, Google Scholar has classified its articles according to the subject matter, so it is possible to exclude the category "Social Sciences, Arts, and Humanities". Thus searching scientific articles published in the 21st century yields 274 results for Bozcaada versus 142 for Tenedos. Clearly, the preferred name in English for natural and social sciences (except history) is Bozcaada in our day. The name Tenedos will always be used in history books referring to the island or when referring to HMS Tenedos, but just so. I agree with Takabeg on that we must adapt the modern usage in the encyclopedia article. Filanca (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per Pmanderson. Since we are in English wikipedia we have to use the most common term in English. I am not convinced that "Bozcaada" has replace the use of "Tenedos".Seleukosa (talk) 12:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

It certainly did not replace (and probably never will). There is enough evidence, however, that both words are being used with Bozcaada becoming more popular as time passes. See the figure I provided above about Bozcaada being more used more than Tenedos in academic papers of the 21st century. Takabeg's proposal is about Use modern names, not about one name replacing the other. Filanca (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

How are you going to change your view as it's shown here that the most common name used in English article is "Bozcaada"?

We shouldn't be confused about one thing though. Popularity or anything doesn't make Tenedos or Bozcaada English names. They are still non-English names used to refer to the island. Saying that Tenedos is the current English name for it is unfounded. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 18:15, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

As I see the support votes are still using controversial arguments that are difinitelly in favor of 'oppose': for example if we compare "Tenedos Island" vs bozcaada island, 20,200 vs 873.07:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

May I ask why you've lied about other people's arguments? Nobody used the search parameters you used before, though, it was explained how a lot of those search results are empty or about history of the island prior to Turkish rule. However, when a normal search is used "bozcaada island" provides twice as more results as "tenedos island". So, please do not lie about other people's arguments. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

@ User:Alexikoua: What did you say here (Janina Vilayet) ? You insisted on using "minimum results" with the "limitation of publication date" instead of "maximum results" without "limitation of publication date". But now you want to use "maximu results" without "limitation of publication date". We are not discussing on what you want. Takabeg (talk) 11:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

There are two problems with a book search:

1. If we take Use modern names into account, we should look for modern usage, say, that in the 21st century while a google book search counts books dating back to hundreds of years. Even if we search for books published after 1999, many of the results are reprints of old books.
   
2. Historical usage will never change. We will always find Constantinople, Tenochtitlan and Bombay along with Istanbul, Mexico City and Mumbai in books of history. However, that is not an indication for modern usage.
   

If we limit our search to books published from year 2000 onwards 'Tenedos+island' drops to 2,160 from 20,200 overall, almost one in ten. The same limit decreases results for 'Bozcaada+island' to 423 from 873, only about a half. This is a clear indication of Bozcaada becoming more popular in books of 21st century. Sampling the individual books, most of 'Tenedos' books publshed from year 2000 onwards are either history books or reprints of older ones. Bozcaada is used for a more diverse range of subjects and there are fewer reprtints (not surprizing, since this usage is relatively recent). To find out exactly which name is more popular when reprints and history books are stripped is a hard task requiring examination of all search results.

A Google Scholar search easily handles the issues: Dates in Scholar indicate mostly first publication and it is possible to filter according to the subject matter. As I indicated above, Bozcaada is more popular than Tenedos in the 21st century publications. Filanca (talk) 09:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Still the above mentioned results are in favor of Tenedos by a ratio of more than 5:1 in 2000-today bibliography [[36]][[37]], all I'm saying is that the support arguments are controversial. Also the fact that the popularity of Tenedos compared to Bozcaada dropped from 10:1 to 5:1 isn't really a strong argument to justify a move.Alexikoua (talk) 12:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The point you're trying to make is already addressed by Takabeg in detail. Please try to move on from his points rather than repeating the same point that's already addressed. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 13:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the point I made there is that many post-2000 publications are reprints of older books but still counted in Google Books as if new, therefore a book search is not a reliable indication of current usage. Bozcaada's increasing popularity among new books (ie, really new ones, not reprints) is only a proof its gaining momentum. Still reprints distort the results for the favor of the older name (ie, Tenedos). That was one reason I do not base my vote on a Google Book count. The other is, there is no way to exclude history-historical books from a Google Books count. It needs hardly repeating that I base my vote on Google Scholar counts. I base it on a Google Scholar search where (1) dates are usually first publication and (2) it is possible to exclude 'history' as a topic. In scientific articles published in the 21st century Bozcaada is twice more popular than Tenedos (274 hits for Bozcaada versus 142 for Tenedos).Filanca (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree that "In scientific articles published in the 21st century Bozcaada is twice more popular than Tenedos", actually the results prove tha opposite, per gbooks 2000- hits, (5:1 in favor of Tenedos in gbooks post 2000 works, and 3:1 in gscholar [[38]][[39]]). In general it would be constructive to provide the necessary urls in order to prove extraordinary facts like the above.

Something also important is that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and this means that scientific articles of 'all' fields should be taken into account.Alexikoua (talk) 14:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

You may find the search result for Tenedos here and for Bozcaada here. As is seen, Bozcaada (163 results) is twice as popular as Tenedos (80 results). If you propose to include history as a subject matter in a search for current name popularity, you should consider that Mumbai is still referred to as Bombay for the colonial period and Mexico City as Tenochtitlan when speaking about the Aztec era. I don't think anyone would propose to use the name Istanbul when referring to the Byzantian city for the same matter. Filanca (talk) 15:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Its not the same, if we make a similar 'all scientific fields' search Istanbul has more hits than Constantinople [[40]][[41]] (10:1), same situation in "Mexico city" vs Tenochitlan [[42]][[43]]. As I know we have separate articles for Constantinople and Tenochitlan, but I don't know if a seperation here is the best we can do.Alexikoua (talk) 15:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Once more: In order to decide on current usage we must not consider documents on history, since, due to the nature of their discipline of history, historians will use names that may have dropped out of usage in other fields. I hope this time it is clear enough. My examples (Tenochtitlan, Constantinople, Bombay) are intended for this point exactly. Nothing to do with their overall Google Scholar hit counts, which may be affected by a myriad of factors. And interesting enough, you do not speak about Mumbai above, which returns less hits than Bombay in Google Scholar like in the case of Bozcaada vs. Tenedos. Which increases my suspicion if you are really trying to understand me or putting up a trollish resistance. Filanca (talk) 17:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Columbia Encyclopedia, Webster and American Heritage are using Bozcaada and directing Tenedos queries to Bozcaada. Collins uses Tenedos. And according to WP:PLACE Use Modern Names, "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name)" Filanca (talk) 07:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Septentrionalis and Athenean make compelling points. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 23:34, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Which points exactly? Their claim of Tenedos returning more hits than Bozcaada in English texts is refuted above. Do you contest that or are there other points that we should consider? Filanca (talk) 06:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The eloquence of Septentrionalis and the detailed rationale of Athenean speak for themselves at least for those who can read. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 06:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Could be interesting to note that the latest added source to the article uses the name Bozcaada as well. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You mean this one [[44]]? As I see it also uses Turkish equivalents on Christian churches, institutions (Aya Yorgi/Nicola), in fact the work is a translation from the Turkish prototype and no wonder the international names 'are' mentioned inside parentheses, also when we read Art. 14 of the Treaty of Lausanne we see only Tenedos.Alexikoua (talk) 21:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Names inside parenthesis does not mean that they're the international names. Not sure where you came up with that. Moreover, your mentioning of the Article 14 that was written in 1923 is completely irrelevant to what I said. It's already been proven couple of times how the name Bozcaada is in fact the modern English name for the island. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 22:51, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Another interesting point is that Wikitravel also uses the name "Bozcaada". TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 12:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Place is in Turkey, so official and native Turkish name should be used. And this standard is followed for all countries. Historical relevance isn't an argument to not move; I bet Constantinople is more common all-time -in Western sources- than Istanbul, but Wikipedia naming conventions are in favor of modern current usage. Tachfin (talk) 22:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Takebag mentiones this sentence for example " It's not easy for us to find historical usage of Bozcaada in this result", when I just look at the first page I can see two historical references one of the book is about ottoman empire. For all the historical references to Tendos there is equal possibilty that there will be historical reference to Bozcaada. Since Wikipedia will not use the most common named used in Turkey the most common name used in the world is the suitable one. Ali55te (talk) 00:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There are even newspapers in Turkey which use Tenedos

If we look at the island, Tenedos without Bozcaada and Bozcaada without Tenedos

island Tenedos without bozcaada [45] 425 results

island bozcaada without tenedos [46] 202 results

The results shows that Tenedos is used itself to refer the island two times more then bozcaada — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs) 01:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I also checked the google scholar related to the publications after 1 January 2011. Here are the results

island "Tenedos" [47] 28 results

island "bozcaada" [48] 23 results (18 of the results has Turkish authors)

This means in 2011 until now Tenedos is used more frequently to refer to the island in Academia. In addition most of the bozcaada results come from Turkish academicians and Turkish universities Ali55te (talk) 01:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

All these points were already addressed by Takabeg. You're accusing his words to be not true yet you're ignoring the fact "Tenedos" is not only the name of the island. There are ship, battle and ship class names that also have the name "Tenedos". "Bozcaada" is only the name of the island and it's shown to be the most common English name in travel guides and many other documents. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 10:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

@Ali55te:

Many of the articles in Google Scholar search for 2011 articles are about history or mythology. When selecting all subject areas except "Social Sciences, Arts, and Humanities", the results are

-island "Tenedos" [49] 2 results however one is written by Greek authorship (judging from the author's name). (one is about Nea Tenedos which isn't this island, must be excluded from search results.) 1 result only which is a historical text, somehow slipped into non-social sciences group. No non-history academic paper published in 2011 by non-Greek authors uses the name Tenedos.

-island "Bozcaada" [50] 15 results. 3 of those have no Turkish authors and 2 of them have Turkish and international authorship including one co-authored by two Greek academicians.

As I argued above, history and mythology will keep names of the periods they speak about forever, therefore they are not indicative of the current name usage. It is clear that the trend to use Bozcaada in academic papers increased in 2011.

By the way, I see it natural for an island in Turkey that most scientific studies are made by Turkish scholars. These are academicians, accustomed to proper English use of terms and, naturally, their papers are screened by Ensligh speaking editors prior to publication.

Filanca (talk) 19:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Summary

Arguments for the name change are dispersed among long comments so I feel a summary might be useful:
Bozcaada [51] is twice more popular with 163 results than Tenedos [52] with 77 results in 21st century scientific publications.

This trend is becoming more pronounced as time passes, same search for articles published in 2011 yields 15 results for Bozcaada [53] and no results for Tenedos [54] (the one result visible is about historical past of the island, not current use).

Columbia Encyclopedia [55], Webster [56], American Heritage [57] and National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency [58] uses Bozcaada. Collins uses Tenedos.

These results are consistent with changing the name of the article according to Wikipedia policy WP:COMMONNAME and guideline about using modern names. Filanca (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to add that the Lonely Planet, the most popular and published travel guide uses the name "Bozcaada" as well. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Quite on the contrary, Tenedos (in reference to the island only) is far more common than Bozcaada (about 20,000 hits [59] versus about 5,000 [60] for Bozcaada, most of which are from tourist guidebooks). I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that Wikipedia is not a tourist brochure. We go by what reliable sources use, not tourist guidebooks and pamphlets. Athenean (talk) 17:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

All those points are decisively addressed in the section above. Please do not make false statements about facts. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 17:19, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually the above gscholar search is highly problematic: for example "the 21st century scientific publications" explude the historical ones (history is considered a science) so we have [[61]] Tenedos: 766, and Boz.: [[62]] 291: the vast majority of scientific 21th works are in favor of Tenedos. As explained above, excluding everything related about the island's history isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia, not to mention the special political status of the island (unfostunately WP:COMMONNAME and guideline about using modern names points to Tenedos).Alexikoua (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I do not think any of us would deny that even if a placename changes, its historical name would remain in use. Therefore, looking at publications about history can not be an indication about current name use although history is certainly a very respectable academic discipline. I have gone a further step and examined all articles published in 2011 and containing the word "Tenedos" in "Social Sciences, Arts, and Humanities" category. That is, to make sure we are not missing any non-history article, like an article on sociology or art. There were none, all of them were history or mythology articles. Clearly, the name is no longer used out of historical context. Filanca (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The numbers I give don't lie. What "false statements"? Anyway, this is getting ridiculous so I'm going to ask that this requested move be closed. Enough already. Athenean (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

@Athanean:
The shortcomings of your search are:
1)We should not count books of history and mythology into account. Such books can never be indicative of current use since historical names will always be used.
2)We must differentiate new books while your search didn't. However, even if you introduced a date, Google Books might give a faulty result since there is no way to take first edition dates into account. It considers reprints as if new. Google Scholar is more reliable in that respect. They are new and never written as a travel guide.
3)We must exclude things like "hms tenedos", "fort tenedos", "nea tenedos", "llc", etc.

Major modern (21st century) encyclopedias and dictionaries are also accepting Bozcaada. Google Scholar searches indicate an ever increasing use of Bozcaada year by year, culminating to no use of Tenedos in articles published in 2011 except in historical context. Even, contrary to those evidence, we assumed that Bozcaada was not yet the established name, acccording to WP:PLACE Use Modern Names, "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name)"

Filanca (talk) 18:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

His search does not take into account the HMS Tenedos, USS Tenedos, Tenedos class frigates, Fort Tenedos, Tenedos Bay or Greek minelayer Tenedos as Wiki lists them. Quite a large part of his search result for the name Tenedos include these as well. His referral to guidebooks as not reliable was also addressed and debunked as I showed decisively how the Lonely Planet, the most popular and published guidebook in Egnlish, uses modern English names in each case whether if it's a European city or if it's a Turkish island. The statements he made about these are either false or misleading. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 18:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually we 'have' to take history into account, it's not our job to ignore the past of the place, as in every encyclopedia article. Moreover, apart from the overwhelming use of Tenedos in current bibliography this is the name the island is officially recognized today, according to article of the 1923 Treaty which is still in function.Alexikoua (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

We have to take history into account only in a historical context. When speaking of the modern time, modern names count. This is why Wikipedia guideline says WP:PLACE Use Modern Names, "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name)". Otherwise, it would not be possible to switch from Bombay [63] (268,000 results) to Mumbai (181,000 results) - [64] both searches 21st century. Filanca (talk) 20:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

In fact modern English names, on the other hand as I know Mumbai isn't under a special minority status inside India and as I know the Treaty of 1923 isn't cancelled by everyone, so if it says Tenedos, or whatever, we have no reason to object that this is correct per wp:COMMONNAME.Alexikoua (talk) 22:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

So Tenedos is an English name? Seriously? TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 23:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"a campaign of state-sponsored discrimination" ?

Hi, everyone. The expression "a campaign of state-sponsored discrimination" was added this edits by User:Athenean. Alexis Alexandris had never used such terms. Is the expression "a campaign of state-sponsored discrimination" is appropriate and encyclopedic for neutral encyclopedia ? Thank you. -- Takabeg (talk) 07:34, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Takabeg, would like me to change the wording to match this source [[65]]? Would you? Or maybe we can just say that they lived happily ever after. Athenean (talk) 07:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The reference is not consistent with the sentence edited by Athenean. Sure, things were not great but we can't edit things to our own convenience. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 09:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Athanean's edit is misleading. His expression "from ancient times" is vague. Archeology indicates first settlement on the island predates Greek Dark Ages at least 1500 years. He assumes a continuous Greek settlement and majority on the island throughout the history until mid 20th Century, which is very difficult to prove. At least we know that there was a considerable time at the end of 14th-beginning of 15th century when the island was uninhabited. His expression "primarily inhabited by Greeks" is also vague, 19th century censuses indicate a 2/3 Greek and 1/3 Turkish population. His source Alexandris is not very reliable: He claims first mosque on the islands was built in 1965 while Şemseddin Sami writes there are three mosques at the mid 19-th century. The oldest, Yali Mosque dates about 1500. On the other hand, I agree with what Athanean wrote about discrimination. However, the ethnic history of the island should not be the first paragraph in a developed article, especially when there is a dedicated section. Although I corrected Athanean's edit on where it stays, I think this should be moved down. Filanca (talk) 17:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Correction: As per TheDarkLordSeth, I suggest rephrasing the sentence in congruence with the source, Alexandris. Filanca (talk) 18:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

So on the one hand you claim that Alexandris is "not very reliable", on the other you want to rephrase the sentence verbatim according to him? Can't have it both ways. Or, we can re-word it in accordance to this source [66]. Would you prefer that? Or maybe we can just say that the Greeks on the island happily lived ever after. "Discrimination" is mildest term we can use here to describe Turkey's policies vis-a-vis the Greek population of Tenedos. I had previously used "persecution" and watered it down to "discrimination" as a compromise, and all this did was make some Turkish users bolder and more demanding. But I draw the line at discrimination. Discrimination describes Turkey's policy exactly, and that's the end of that. I cannot water it down further. As for Alexandris, he is a scholarly publication and hence a top notch source, in stark contrast to the sources you have introduced. Who is Turan Takaoglu? Which journal is his paper published in? It seems to be self-published, i.e. unreliable. "Journey of Ruy Gonzales de Clavijo" is definitely not a reliable source. A memoir of a medieval (~1400s) traveler? Not a reliable source by any stretch. And what kind of source is "Yurt Ansiklopedisi"? I am going to have the reliability of each of these sources investigated at WP:RSN, and if users there declare any of them unreliable, they will be removed. By the way, why did you first agree with what I wrote only to change your mind later on? Ethnic solidarity? Very disappointing. Athenean (talk) 01:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I should've made myself more clear: Alexandris is not reliable since some of what he says contradicts historical information. The date he gives for the "first mosque on the islands", 1965 is not correct for either island and is late about 450 years. He makes generalizations for the two islands like saying "they had overwhelming Greek majorities" while this was only true for Imbros. Of course some information Alexandris gives may be true, but we would rather confirm those from another source given those errors and his political language. In any case, the article contains information attributed to Alexandris but not present in his book. For example, he does not say "schools were required to teach exclusively in Turkish" but this is attributed to him. Even if we will use Alexandris as a source, we must make this properly. Sevinç and Takaoğlu are archeologists and their article was published in here, a joint publication of the Univeristies of Tübingen and the University of Cincinnatti. Prof. Takaoğlu is from Çanakkale University, you may find information about him here. Clavijo is certainly a very valuable source about the island along with Pero Tafur, both confirm the island was abandoned after the War of Chioggia. Secondary sources also indicate evacuation of the island, check here (p.204) and here. Filanca (talk) 07:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

• I want to consider this edit as a good symptom that a user started to ged rid of his/her ethnocentric prejudice. I think Alexis Alexandris's article can be used. But if we use this source alone, verifiability of this sentence is "weak". We'd better use this source with other more neutral sources. Alexandris mentions discrimination, but he didn't mention "state-sponsored discrimination". We have to avoid original comopositions, especially on disputed issues, sensitive subjects. For 6-7 September, I can find sources that mention "state-sponsored riot etc.". But I couldn't find for this issue. So we'd better remove "invented" terms.

Alexis Alexandris, "The Identity Issue of The Minorities In Greece An Turkey", in Hirschon, Renée (ed.), Crossing the Aegean: An Appraisal of the 1923 Compulsory Population Exchange Between Greece and Turkey, Berghahn Books, 2003, p. 120.

I agree with Filanca: "this should be moved down."

Takabeg (talk) 08:47, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Alexandris is 100% reliable. The stuff about the first mosque being built refers to Imbros. And yes, both islands had overwhelming Greek majorities, even Yurt Ansiklopedi backs that up (2/3 Greeks). Athenean (talk) 18:24, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

No, Athanean, he was not speaking about Imbros only when he said "the first Turkish mosque on the islands was built in 1965". This may not be correct for Imbros alone, either, see [67]. "An overwhelming majority" does not seem like the correct way to put it when speaking about a 2/3 majority. Alexandris is also vague and speaking of two very different islands in his generalized statements. Filanca (talk) 19:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

If anyone thinks Alexandris is not reliable, I ask that they request an advisory opinion by non-Greek/Turkish users at WP:RSN, which exists for this purpose. Athenean (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think we have proved Alexandris gave wrong (or misleadingly vague) information two times in one page. If we still use his work as a source, I suggest to be careful and confirm what he says from other sources. More importantly, we should not cite him for information not present in his work. Filanca (talk) 19:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I have added Greek Pathriarchate's 1912 census results with reference to Alexandris since nobody else seems to mention that. However I hope to confirm that information from another source given Alexandris' reliability. Filanca (talk) 21:45, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

"Overwhelming majority" term is usually used when the percentage is higher then 75%. As mentioned before, Alexandris puts the first mosque in the islands at 1965 and that's not true for Bozcada if not for either of the islands. It's ethnocentric prejudice to claim that he's 100% reliable when he can't even get one simple fact right. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 23:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Alexandris seems fine on this fact, actually the originally Christian church in Cinarli, at the center of the island's capital, was converted to Mosque at 1965, and that's the same church Caliskan mentions.Alexikoua (talk) 22:47, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

In Bozcaada (Tenedos), There are dangerous rocks off this little town and mole of Tenedos, where the Turkish fort flies its red flag, and the little mosque... (Inside Sebastopol, and experiences in camp, Chapman & Hall, 1856, p. 87.) Takabeg (talk) 11:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

About Imbros (Imroz, Gökçeada), Alexandris wrote Interestingly, the first Turkish mosque in the islands was built in 1965 on an expropriated Greek Orthodox vakıf (communal property) in Panagia (now renamed Çınarlı), the capital of Imbros, and was given the name Fatih Camisi (the Conqueror's mosque). But..... according to this website,

• In Çınarlı Mahallesi ward there are Aya Panayia Church, the Central Mosque that is the first mosque of the island and was established in 1813, and two old laundry.
• In Fatih Mahallesi ward there are the building of the Metropolitan of Imbros, Metropolitan Church and Fatih Mosque.
• In Yenimahalle ward, there are Aya Varvara Church and old fountain.

Takabeg (talk) 12:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

In addition to Takabeg: The article already documents the Köprülü Mosque in Bozcaada/Tenedos was built in 1657. It was built on the ruins of an older mosque demolished by Venetians. That is probably the oldest standing temple building in use on the island, considering the church was built in the 19th Century. However, there is also the discarded mosque in the castle, in fact two of them, one ruined, other standing but not in use since the Ottoman garrison left. At least one of those two may be predating Köprülü mosque. Besides, the mosque that was destroyed by Venetians should be even older. I have seen at least one reference for that and hope to add it in the article later on. However those facts have little significance for Alexandris, whose aim seems to be making a point about the suffering of the Greek community. I am not criticizing his aim but the way he works. He is biased and should be taken with care even if he may be a good source at times. Filanca (talk) 15:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

And why do we care about Alexandris' opinion if a 59% majority is "great" or "overwhelming"? Alexikoua reverted my edit saying it was a referenced information therefore should not be deleted, but should we add well-documented yet insignificant information to the encyclopedia? I will not touch Takabeg's neutralized expression (thanks to him) although I still feel Alesandris' comment looks out of place. Unless, we are after documenting his bias (is 59% majority great? Overwhelming? Come on!) Filanca (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I still see no arguments that condradict the claims of Alexandris, not to mention that it's published on a collective work. If wp:rs policy isn't enough to convice I would suggest to fill a wp:rsn case.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The simple fact that Alexandris claim that the first mosque was built in 1965 being wrong should be enough. You've claimed before that he's 100% reliable. It's proven that he's not. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 20:44, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Alexandris is also proven wrong about assuming a continuous Greek majority on the island throughout its human settlement until the 20th century. Not only the island remained empty for 75 years between 1381-1455, but the figures indicate a clear Turkish majority after the island is repopulated until the 19th century. Besides, the first known settlement on the island predates the Greek Dark Ages about 1500 years. Since he overlooks so many facts, his motives are confirmed to be political and biased. Filanca (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I find this news on a Turkish newspaper. http://www.evrensel.net/news.php?id=5423 It basically states that during 1960s horrible things happened against greeks. The crulties, seizing of their properties, assimilation etc.. and eventually in the news the Çanakkale human rights association minister Kenan Döner states that, the pressure put on greeks now become to an unbelivable point. People even can not tolerate the greek cemetaries. In one night they broke all the gravestones of the greeks. Athenean you don't need to look at greek sources if you just look at Turkish resources you can find more then enough information. I will put the information on the page when I have time to translate and summerize the article in an efficient way.Ali55te (talk) 19:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I have already added reliable sources to almost all information based on Alexandris (not to say that adding further sources will be bad) However there still remains one "citation needed" tag in the article which you might want to search for. Filanca (talk) 10:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

"ecological disaster"?

There is a recent edit in the article adding the following:

"During the 1960s the island faced a serious ecological disaster whith the enforcement of law 6830/1964, that aimed at the appropriation of the cultivated areas owned by the local Greek communities. As a result 90% of the total cultivated areas in both Tenedos and Imbros were destroyed and various constructions were built instead."

There is no indication of an ecological disaster on the island in any other resource. Today 40% of the island is cultivated and 80% of the cultivated lands are vineyards (see Brebbia&Beriatos p.338-339 [http://books.google.com/books?id=uojOg7iXZZAC&
pg=PA339&lpg=PA329&ots=GAvVRx3Cuc&dq=bozcaada+agriculture&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html] Therefore it is impossible for the island to have had 90% of its cultivated lands destroyed -- and replaced by various constructions(?). There is some sign of decline in the vineyards in the last three decades (see same source, p. 339) but it is not related with an ownership regulation but development of tourism and tax laws. It is also on a much smaller scale and started about 20 years after claimed by this edit. In fact, during the period where the above edit claims the "ecological disaster", wine production in the island increased, especiall after 1956 (same source, p.339). Between 1960-80, 13 wine production plants operated. Better use of machinery increased productivity. Since wine producers used grapes on the island, this increase would have been impossible with 90% of the cultivated lands destroyed.

The source given for this edit is not about agriculture or economy. It is a political book about Turkish-Greek relations written by a Greek author (see full text here, p.139). It speaks of Imbros and Bozcaada together in this matter. This is not a correct nor a clear way to indicate a fact about one of the islands but not something new to users participated in discussions here, see above for false claims about both islands having an overwhelming Greek majority until 20th century (which is only true for Imbros), both islands' Turkish names changed after 1970 (again only true for Imbros), both islands not having a mosque until 1965 (not true for either island but the first mosque on Bozcaada probably predates the 19th century mosque in Imbros about 300 years). Imbros and Bozcaada are two islands, althogh not very far from each other and both in Turkey, with different histories, ethnographies and economies. Speaking in generalizations proved to be misleading in the past.

I propose this edit to be deleted in view of the contradictory evidence. Filanca (talk) 12:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Unreliable source. Takabeg (talk) 10:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

In general when the 90% of the cultivated areas of a region is appropriated and replaced with conrete, this is called ecological disaster. The source is of top graded academic value, so we have no problem of adding the specific part: the argumenty that the source isn't about the economic is really poor, but this part can fit in history section too.Alexikoua (talk) 18:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

But if you have a closer look at the figures above, you will see that it is impossible that 90% of the cultivated lands in Bozcaada/Tenedos to be covered with concrete. Currently 40% of the island is being cultivated, most of the rest being used for herding, there is also a forest, beaches, dunes, the town and farm buildings. If this 40% is the remaining 10% after 90% of the cultivated lands were replaced with concrete, the irrational conclusion would be that prior to 1960, 400% of the island's whole surface was being cultivated! That means most of the farmers were working under sea. Although a type of seaweed is being served in the restaurants of the island as a meze, that would hardly count as agriculture. Joking aside, there is no large scale concrete structures on the island, and I hope you have also read how wine production soared after 1956 until 1980, which would be impossible by destroying vineyards. Check this book also. Although it is written in Turkish, you will be able to understand the land use map on p.103. Green: agriculture, blue: tourism, pink: conservation and yellow: settlement. Filanca (talk) 21:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Large scale appropriations of land owned by the Greek communities was part of the official state policy in the 60s. This can be confirmed by several sources [[68]][[69]], by the way we are talking about the 60s not 2007.Alexikoua (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

And I do not contest that. However, jumping from the fact that there was expropriations to an 'ecological disaster' where 90% of arable land falling out of agricultural use and being covered with other structures is far fetched. Such an event is contradicting to other sources and what we know about the island's past and present. Filanca (talk) 18:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Instead of deleting, I took the liberty to re-write this part, contrasting it with the growth in wine production. 90% decrease in arable lands and expropriation of Greek farms kept, but I deleted the phrase "ecological disaster" since such a catastrophe, if true, would certainly have been reported by other sources. I don't think that it is contained in the original source, either. I hope this is acceptable for all. Filanca (talk) 09:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

As I see the construction of a military base and an airport on previous cultivated lands in a small island are very likely to cause ecological disaster, so I reworded the specific part in order to become somewhat more balanced (ecological disaster vs wine production increase). I have the feeling that this paragraph should be moved back to 'economy'.Alexikoua (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

What military base? Which airport? The only airport (airstrip rather) that existed on the island, as indicated in the article, is the one built by British forces during WWI Gallipoli Campaign. Since then it has disappeared and has no effect on agricultural use today. And the "basis" one may speak of today is the single garrison of Turksh jandarmerie which hardly occupies a significant area. The source you cited speaks about Imbros, not Bozcaada. You seem to have confused the two islands again. Filanca (talk) 21:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I admit that this is not convincing at all, at least google is very clear that there is an active airfield in Tenedos/Bozcaada Seems google [[70]] and no wonder we see it on googlemaps very clear too [[71]]. it would be more constructive to avoid blind reverts and check carefully the arguments presented. (also the source says [[72]] "the most fertile lands of the Greeks were expropriated and a military base and an airport were constructed on these lands." its plural).Alexikoua (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

If you check the Google Earth you can see that there is only one airstrip that's between 600 and 700 meters. This airstrip takes up a very small amount of space and is surrounded by farmlands. Assuming that this is the airstrip the British built, where is this other airstrip that Turks build over a vast amount of land? TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would be more constructive to present specific works and arguments instead of assuming something. Since we have this [[73]] that speaks about "an airfield and an military base constructed in these island" in mid 20th cent., we have no reason to assume something that contradicts this. Alexikoua (talk) 22:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It would be much more constructive to not misuse sources though. Your link does not provide the information you claim it does. Moreover, you fail to address the points I've raised. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 12:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Everything is cited inside the text (ecological disaster, construction of airfield military base and appropriation of land owned by locals based on ethnicity). Another relevant fact that can be added is the prohibition to sell their wine production.Alexikoua (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's cited in the article but it's not mentioned in your link above that you claimed it was. I could find references that say the Earth is flat but that doesn't make it reliable. I don't know why you'd try to misuse the sources you link to. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Alexikoua:
1) Your source says "a military base and an airport were constructed on these lands". One military base and one airport. Lands in plural. Which lands? Looking at the title, Imbros and Tenedos. This is one of the sources which speak of both islands in generalized statements. Generalizations about those islands proved to be wrong more than once in this page (remember post-1970 invented name, the first mosque of the "islands", etc.) Imbros and Bozcaada, although both in Turkey, are two islands with very different history and geography. Going back to your source, it is speaking of a single airport on one of the two islands.

2) The long paragraph mentioning the airport contains the word Imbros three times and Gökçeada one time. It contains "the island" 12 times. It never speaks of Tenedos or Bozcaada. There is no reason to doubt that it starts to speak about an airfield on Bozcaada, without naming it, while it speaks only of Imbros before and after.

3) This document proves that the airport is scheduled to be built within Eight Five Yearly Development Plan which spans from 2001-2005 (page 190, "Çanakkale-Bozcaada Havaalanı"). That is long after the migration of Greeks of the island which mainly took place between 1960-1980.

4) If you look at the map on page 103 of this book again, you will see that the "airfield" you found on the Google Maps lies in grids 7, 26 and 27, none of which are agricultural lands. If you read the Geography section of this article and a bit of a geography of the islanda, you will see that section (extreme west) of the island is covered with sand dunes. Google Maps also indicates there are no fields around the airfield you speak about. Agricultural lands lie due east and there is a pine forest in between.

5) This book indicates how Greeks helped British to build the first airstrip by uprooting a vineyard on the island during the Gallipoli Campaign. It is 800 yards long, looking at the map, almost as long as the airstrip you mention. Now, should we consider this as an evidence of Greeks disturbing the ecology of the island?
Filanca (talk) 21:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but there is some incosistency with this argument, for example you claim that the airfield wasn't built on a cultivated area, but this url you gave above [[74]] claims that the airfield is inside the cultivated green area (square 10), on squares 7, 26, 27 as you mistakenly claim there is a dirt road instead.Alexikoua (talk) 13:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, I considered the map in the link you provided and it was centered on the western cape so I mistakenly considered the dirt road there. Sorry. This is plainly in grid 10, agricultural area. This explains one inconsistency in my mind: I thought it was highly probable that the current airstrip was built on the same area as the British one built during the WWI. Had it been near the western cape, there could hardly have been a vineyard uprooted during its construction, since that area is not suitable for farming. Being in the agricultural part of the island, current airstrip may still coincide with the old one. Now making some allowance for the premises, the dimensions of the airstrip are 700m x 100m =70,000 sq.m. = 7 hectares. Total area of the island is 36.7 sq.km. = 3760 hectares. Total arable land is 40% of that, 1500 hectares. Area of the airstrip is 0.47%, less than a half per cent of the agricultural lands. I suppose that is hardly a significant percentage that would lead to an 'ecological disaster'. Besides, it was done by the British forces first with help from Greek residents of the island. If there are any confiscations for this 21st century construction, that was long after most Greeks already left the island. Filanca (talk) 18:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)