Talk:Tea processing/Archive 1

Archive 1

tea terms

There are different ways to classify tea, such as the degree of withering or fermentation, type of fresh tea leaf like tips and/or leaves, general color of finished tea leaf, like black tea or green tea. The defining processes below are based on the Tenfu Tea College and Lu-Yu Tea Culture Institute.

primary processing chart: [teasteps2010]

icetea (talk) 20:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It what way is this chart is better than the one already there? Sjschen (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

hi; i think the original chart is good but it might be with the terminology, my knowledge of tea processing mostly comes from china/taiwan terminology, i am not an expert on japanese or indian tea processing but i think most of the processes are similar or overlap. From what i see the main diffence is in the charts is the division of steps.

• bruising: this step i include in the withering/fermentation with buising i call

laying 作青(includes setting and tossing)

setting 靜置 letting the fresh leaves rest

tossing 攪拌浪青also called shaking (but this is not rolling)

• curing: according to the chart this looks like it includes different processes, one is post-fermentation and the other is firing or what i call roasting. (i am going by the chart not the article)

this is what i would propose or something like this,(but like wiki's way we need to reach an agreement).

green tea綠茶: fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥

yellow tea黃茶: fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > sweltering悶黃 > drying乾燥

green Puer青普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > sun drying曬乾 > (usually aged)

dark tea黑茶and dark Puer熟普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > piling 渥堆 > sun drying曬乾

white tea白茶: withering (fermentation) 萎凋 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥

oolong tea烏龍茶: withering萎凋 > fermentation發酵 > fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥

black tea紅茶: withering萎凋 > rolling揉捻 > fermentation發酵 > drying乾燥

Explanation of some tea making processes:

oxidation氧化 (enzymic): a natural chemical change in the tea leaf that begins after harvesting and accelerates if leaf cells are broken and exposed to oxygen.

withering萎凋: water loss by respiration and evaporation and leaf becomes more pliable, dryness and heat aid in this process.

fermentation發酵: actually enzymic oxidation, noticeable change chemical composition and leaf becomes darker, moisture and heat aid in this process.

fixation殺青: to rapidly stop the fermentation through water loss caused by heat.

rolling揉捻: breaking the leaf cell walls exposing sap to leaf substrate and air, and shaping.

drying乾燥: making the leaves ready for storage.

Two different methods of making black tea (in India, Sri Lanka for example):

There are two methods used to rupture the leaf cells prior to fermentation.

orthodox method: the traditional way of making black tea, a batch of leaves go through the roller and are macerated and twisted.

CTC(crush-tear-cut) method: leaves are continuously fed through the machine and are rolled and go through a sharp teeth.

icetea (talk) 23:31, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with some of the changes in terminology. Namely the change with wilting and kill-green to withering and fixation, respectively. Here are my comments on the processes, which given in the parenthesis in italics:

• "fermentation發酵: actually enzymic oxidation, noticeable change chemical composition and leaf becomes darker, moisture and heat aid in this process." (The word fermentation is implies biologically driven breakdown something. However, the leaves are as you stated changed through enzymatic oxidation and as such should be listed in that manner. For this reason I prefer the term "oxidation")
• "fixation殺青: to rapidly stop the fermentation through water loss caused by heat.": (As stated I do like the use of "fixation" more than "kill-green". However, the "fermentation" is not stopped by water loss through heat but is due to the denaturing of the oxidation enzymes through heat. Proof of this is how fixation/sha-qing can be done by steaming which is a decidedly wet method.)

As for bruising and curing, although the processes included in these two groups are different, they are basically the more or less the same mode of operation in terms of the goal. this was essentially how the chart was constructed, by looking at the goal of the process rather than the actual details entailed in the process. For instance, bruising in black and oolong tea making are accomplished differently with:

• CTC Black: heavy crushing and cutting with serrated rollers
• Orthodox Black: lighter crushing with rollers
• Oolong: light damaging of the leaves around the edges to various degrees

Although all the processes are rather different, the intended result is to damage the leaf structure/cells to release the enzymes and expose the insides of the leaves to oxygen, thus contributing the production of flavour molecules. Since the goal they should be included them under the same group, namely "bruising", which is a fitting term.

The same argument goes to the curing of tea, of which one is biotic and auto-oxidation (post-fermentation) while the other is heat-based denaturing (roasting/firing). The processes are different but the intended result is to cure the teas into 熟茶, and produce something that is less astringent, less "harmful" to the gut, and more pleasant to drink (smoothness). Since the intended goal is the same, the processes are listing under the same group.

As for to splitting brusing into 3 steps (作青,靜置,浪青), to me "laying 作青(includes setting and tossing)" and "setting 靜置 letting the fresh leaves rest" are more or less withering processes, with the goal being to expel excess moisture from the leaves prior to further processing. As such, it does not contribute enough to oxidation to be listed under oxidation. "Tossing" (浪青) is neither withering nor oxidation since the process does not significantly reduce moisture nor does it contributes to oxidation (that happens after 浪青). In fact 浪青 is really there to damage the leaves to help oxidation and thus a unique step on its own, which is bruising.

For a Chinese version of the chart please look here. Perhaps you can give some comments on it too.

The description of the processing of different teas is not completely accurate when stated. My comments are given in the parenthesis in italics in the following:

• "green Puer青普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > sun drying曬乾 > (usually aged)"(Green pu-erh is type of green tea although sometimes technically a white tea. The aging is a curing process with auto-oxidation and biotic fermentation)
• "dark tea黑茶and dark Puer熟普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > piling 渥堆 > sun drying曬乾" ("dark tea" is the result of curing a finished green tea through a composting process. 渥堆 only proceeds after the a green tea is more-or less finished (not as dried))
• "white tea白茶: withering (fermentation) 萎凋 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥" (withering contributes only very lightly to oxidation(not fermentation))
• "oolong tea烏龍茶: withering萎凋 > fermentation發酵 > fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥"" (oolong leaves are damaged by tossing after withering, a key step of the process that is not mentioned here)

Sjschen (talk) 15:37, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

i see the chinese chart, and its terminology makes sense, i have some issues with the steps. i also see you have done much for this wiki article.

• i am looking/following the chart you provide and the list above i have copied here to try to evalutate, please make your suggestion on it. yes real fermention is not what i am using, i am using tea jargon fermention/oxidation, when i mean microbe fermention i use piling.

• "green Puer青普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > sun drying曬乾 > at this point it is done and can be aged but it still is green puer the thing that makes a Puer is it has to be sun fixed, the aging is an added process, yes it should be aged but it does not have to be it is still a green puer at this point. and it can be compress into cakes.
• "dark tea黑茶and dark Puer熟普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > piling 渥堆 > sun drying曬乾" (dark and dark puer have sun fixation, regular green tea doesnt have sun fixation)
• "white tea白茶: withering (fermentation) 萎凋 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥" ( yes lightly oxidation, but white tea is not high heat fixated it is withered then rolled lightly then dried, many from in fuding china)
• "oolong tea烏龍茶: withering(with buising/tossing)萎凋 > fermentation發酵 > fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥"" (you are correct the tea is bruised usually several times, but the chart has sun withering this is not an important step to oolongs, many oolongs are made with indoor withering an example cool long time withering like anshi iron goddess)

green tea綠茶: fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > drying乾燥(the fixation is usually pan fixation in china/taiwan and steam fixation in japan)

yellow tea黃茶: fixation殺青 > rolling揉捻 > sweltering悶黃 > drying乾燥(similar to green tea but has a added swealtering process no added heat the tea is piled up after fixation and rolling for short-time only made in the spring)

black tea紅茶: withering萎凋 > rolling揉捻 > fermentation發酵 > drying乾燥 (key point for all black teas is first rolled/ctc/rupture cell walls then fermention)

to create the varieties of tea we do not need the "curing/added process/加工" of roasting: for example if a green tea is roasted it still is a green tea like the japanese tea (Hōjicha/ほうじ茶/番茶). oolongs can be roasted but not necessary, same is for scenting and spicing. see below.

• problems of translating: taiwan and many parts of china use 初製and 加工 differently so i will put what i mean by each below:
• added processing 加工, here i mean soming added after the tea is one of the main varieties and cant be changed again example like once it is a green tea it wont change into a black tea: re-drying覆火, aging 陳放 (by storing), roasting 焙火, scenting熏花, spicing調味
• what is important is the primary processing:

Primary Processing初製from fresh leaves 茶青not all are used: withering萎凋, fermentation發酵, fixation殺青,rolling揉捻,drying乾燥, 渥堆 piling, this is the process that make a tea black or white or other variety.

i have a link to a large list of tea terms you are welcome to use them in anyway, i try to use the same chinese/english tea terms to avoid confusion. link

icetea (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

the above and the current "tea processing" article is basically the same no further actions from my part as of this time. I have no objections in using or deleting the above tea terms discussion section.

icetea (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

It would definitely be useful to elaborate on certain aspects of tea processing especially in the curing/additional-processing parts. However, this may better done in separate articles pertaining to these specific topics. For me, tea processing is complex enough and with enough history behind it that a simple article as this cannot really give a complete picture. All that I'm trying to do to collapse and generalize the processing of different teas such that the relations between them can be seen through their processing methods. For instance, in seeing how the evolution of green tea processing has spawned off various techniques to produce post fermented teas like liu-an and puerh. Of course there are definite differences even in how a particular type of tea is processed. If you look at the discussion in Talk:Pu-erh_tea for wilting "Withering of leaves before maocha" the classification is actually varied and not necessarily straight-forward.

In any case I think I'll put out the SVG file for the tea-processing diagram for more ease of editing. However, it maybe a good idea to plan on how to restructure the diagram without oversimplifying it to point of uselessness or complicating it to the point of confusion. Sjschen (talk) 20:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

This is the flow chart of the primary tea processing of what determines green, yellow, oolong, white, black, dark tea, green Puer, and dark Puer. This does not include any additional processes such as roasting, scenting and flavoring; since these can be done to any tea:

I have included Chinese and English

icetea (talk) 20:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

the use of the word "flushes"

A "flush" in tea production refers to the wave of growth of tea buds and young leaves coming from the bushes. That is why the first wave of plucks is called "first flush". To refer to the very young leaf buds that are not open yet, the word "shoot" is used. In the context of this article, production of tea in general should be accounted for. While it points out that sometimes plucking by hand is done, implying that in other production, machine cutting is used. In such instance, ALL leaves, including even twigs and any plant parts are included in the production, which is true in the majority of tea production in real life, at least for mass produced tea such as those for tea bags and tea materials for bottled tea. Therefore, I have changed the mentioning of the idea of using shoots in the paragraph and keep it to the use of leaves only. Bill Ukers (talk) 01:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Flavour, i.e. Taste profile, of a tea is not determined largely by the degree of oxidation alone

The taste profile of a tea selection is NOT determined by the degree of oxidation or fermentation alone. Too many factors affects the final flavour that I have generalized it to the revised sentenced in the introductory paragraph to say only the cultivar, production quality etc. The original sentence that refers to oxidation as the only major determination factor is not true. Please refer to the references cited in the edited version of the article. Bill Ukers (talk) 03:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

That's true, though if you screw up the oxidation and its stopping step (shaqing), you more or less either change the type of tea or ruin the leaves completely. -- Sjschen (talk) 21:56, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

more revision needed

The article needs a lot more consistence in concept and tidying of the language. I'll come back to do it when I have got the time. Bill Ukers (talk) 03:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

curing? primary and added processing

Primary Tea Processing (no roasting, scenting, or spicing)

This process "curing" is called "added processing" and is not need to make the classification of the 6 teas, it can be added, for example a oolong that is roasted or not roasted is still an oolong and a puer aged or not aged is still a puer. If you put in (added processing)aging and roasting then you should also include scenting and spicing(flavoring). Please look at this graph. icetea8 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tea processing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jerem43 (talk • contribs • count) 20:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose):

   ✓ Pass The prose is of excellent quality

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   ✓ Pass It is properly formatted, however there are some issues. Issues fixed --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 14:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (references):

   ✓ Pass The references are of high quality, I did translate the Chinese language into English and noted that the originals are in Chinese.

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   ✓ Pass The sources are all scholarly journals and are iminatly reliable.

   c. (OR):

   ✓ Pass None that I can identify

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   ✓ Pass - The article covers the major steps of tea manufacture.

   b. (focused):

   ✓ Pass The article is tightly focused on the subject.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   ✓ Pass The article adherers to the rules of neutrality, and has no perceptible bias.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   ✓ Pass A check of the history shows no major issues with stability.

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):

   ✓ Pass All images are meet the criteria for usage

   • Y File:Assam.jpg is a Commons image that is in the public domain

   • Y File:Teaprocessing.svg is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Tea plantation picking.JPG is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Tea Factory Srimongol Sylhet Bangladesh 5.JPG is a Commons image that is in the public domain

   • Y File:Assam CTC Hanamizuki 2009.JPG is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Da Hong Pao Oolong tea leaf close.jpg is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Bai Hao Yin Zhen tea leaf (Fuding).jpg is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Xiaguan Te Ji Tuo Cha 2004.jpg is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   • Y File:Huoshan Huangya tea leaves close.jpg is a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 licensed image

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   ✓ Pass All images have captions that are clear and precise.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments

1. 1b. There is a minor issue with the lead, citations are not needed in the lead if the information is found and cited in the body of the article. Since this is a non-controversial subject, please make sure that the lead itself is free of citations and that the information in the lead is with in the body of the article. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 16:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

   Thanks for the review. I can certainly remove the citations on the lead of the article since, as you said, much of the content there is repeated in the article itself. I suppose the GA review process can conclude after this? -- Sjschen (talk) 14:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

   I was waiting for your reply, I will continue asap. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

   The citations have been moved, some of them were not used in the rest of the article and has been removed. -- Sjschen (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

2. Citations - Could you finish the translations from Chinese into English? I did most of them, but there are two or three that Google Translate couldn't handle. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 14:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

   Done-- Sjschen (talk) 14:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

3. Citations - There are several passages that are not cited. Because of the technical nature of the process and some of the claims, could you please cite them? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 14:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Picking - The whole back end of this section is un-sourced

   • Done -- Sjschen (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Bruising - The last sentence makes a claim that needs to be sourced

   • Done -- Sjschen (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Rolling/Shaping - The whole back end of this section is un-sourced

   • Done -- Sjschen (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Aging/Curing - The last sentence makes a claim that needs to be sourced

   • Done -- Sjschen (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • White tea - The whole back end of this section is un-sourced, with several claims that need to be verified

   • Done-- Sjschen (talk) 18:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Oolong tea - The last sentence makes a claim that needs to be sourced

   • Done-- Sjschen (talk) 18:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Post fermented tea - The last sentence makes a claim that needs to be sourced

   • This is more a statement of general fact, you can't find ANY other kind of post-fermented tea as easily-- Sjschen (talk) 18:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Yellow tea - The last sentence makes a claim that needs to be sourced

   • Done. Can't be verified, deleted.-- Sjschen (talk) 18:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

4. Engvar - The article has several places where it uses various national forms of spelling, could you please proof read it and insure that it is of one spelling format. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 14:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

   Should be done ("color" and "flavor") -- Sjschen (talk) 15:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Other issues

What's the status on this review? No comments in a few weeks. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:13, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

From the indications of Jeremy it looks fine except for citations in the introduction. This has since been corrected, however there has been no reply from him. I'm not sure what's going on.-- Sjschen (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Real world issues cropped up and I had to deal with them. I'll have this finished by Sunday. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 20:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey just stumbled onto this article, and wanted to say i think this looks really good. I saw a documentary on the history channel about this process (I am definitely no expert), and this article does a good job of summing it up. MilkStraw532 (talk) 20:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MilkStraw532 Thanks for reading. I have a feeling that many of the very general documentaries such as that on the History use Wiki articles such as this for their own content. -- Sjschen (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC)