Talk:Taylor Swift

Singer-songwriter AND Musician

I observed that in the infobox about occupations list, it states that she is a Singer-Songwriter and a Musician. Are these two roles not synonymous? Additionally, I have noticed that it is uncommon for Singer-Songwriters and Musicians to be listed separately on the encyclopedia pages of her colleagues, as they are typically referred to simply as Singer-Songwriters. ShakiraFandom (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal life missing

Why is this section missing? What time it is (talk) 05:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think intro is promo/written from fan point of view

A subject of widespread public interest with a vast fanbase, she has influenced the music industry, popular culture, and politics through her songwriting, artistry, entrepreneurship, and advocacy.

Lot of celebrities has widespread public interest and vast fanbase - whats special here? And many artists has influenced pop culture.

It should be something like Swift's career began in country music, but she has since transitioned into pop and alternative genres. She is also known for her narrative songwriting, which often centers on her personal life

Gsgdd (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The editor here also omits her career trajectory as an opening act for several other artists' concert tours in the early of her career, a common format inclusion on a musician's Wikipedia. It is clear that this page is managed by fans. WP:NOTFANWEBSITE

see: page.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Swift&diff=prev&oldid=1228060222 ShakiraFandom (talk) 08:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep. they are hardcore fans. see the last editor User:Ippantekina - they only make edits to taylor swift pages Gsgdd (talk) 08:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Gsgdd: see this discussion. Ippantekina (talk) 08:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Id wait for others to chime in. @Ippantekina i need their feedback on concerns i raised about fan point of view Gsgdd (talk) 08:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@ShakiraFandom: please read WP:OTHERSTUFF. Ippantekina (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

There is Swifties. Cwater1 (talk) 13:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I believe it would be helpful to implement some of the OP's proposed changes, though I have no particular suggestion on how the lead should appear. That aside, I agree with the inclusion of this tag, as I believe there are other issues there. Some examples:

• Putting "songwriting" and "artistry" next to each other seems excessive. Do we need both terms?
• What makes one a "professional" songwriter? It's not a sport where there's a commonly accepted difference between amateur and pro.
• Are "chart-topping" and "number-one" necessary (or appropriate) descriptions? Isn't it similar to saying "award-winning"?
• With WP:RECENTISM in mind, are her directorial projects more noteworthy than the titles of films in which she's acted? She was in one the worst and commercially unsuccessful films of all time. How is that less noteworthy than a concert film?
• The lead says Swift is the second most streamed artist on Spotify. The body says she is the most streamed. Which is it? Why is Spotify in the lead at all?
• How are the American Music Awards, Billboard Music Awards, and MTV Video Music Awards due here, especially the lattermost? I believe the Brit Awards would be more appropriate to insert than any of these three.

KyleJoan^talk 06:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing with me. I also concur with your points. We should begin cleaning up the article. There are many Swifties here who are often aggressive in reverting changes, as they view it from a fan’s perspective. I haven't read body - who knows how much fan point of view is there. Since this is a featured article, it’s all the more reason to elevate it to higher standards. I’m tagging @FrB.TG as well. Gsgdd (talk) 06:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gsgdd: While waiting for others' responses towards a consensus, please refrain from reverting edits repeatedly (WP:3RR) and assume good faith, since your comment regarding how "aggressive" Swifties are is practically bad faith.

@KyleJoan: I agree that the lead is marred with recentism and there needs to be adjustments, but I disagree with your disregard for Spotify (which is arguably the most-discussed metric for song streams/artists' relevance in the streaming age), number-one songs (charts matter, no?), and awards like the AMAs or VMAs (why not?) Ippantekina (talk) 07:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ippantekina, please do not revert the tag without discussion. We need to reach a consensus, particularly from uninvolved editors. The tag will help ensure broader review from the wider wiki community, not just from the original authors. Previously, you have reverted my other good faith edits as well. I felt such reverts were aggressive, and calling it out is not bad faith Gsgdd (talk) 08:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Read up on WP:BRD and how WP:CONSENSUS is built, Gsgdd. Repeated edit-warring and violation of WP:3RR will only get you blocked. Krimuk2.0 (talk) 09:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue with Spotify as a metric is its numbers fluctuate too often. A featured article is expected to be stable to some extent, and yet, even with all the editing that goes on here, there's still not an agreement between the lead and body about whether Swift is the most streamed or second-most streamed. That's a major policy issue

The description "number-one" is too ambiguous. Where does a song need to reach number one for it to be appropriate? A specific country? A specific genre chart?

A fan-voted award is almost never more important in the way sources document it compared to industry-voted ones. I guarantee you that there is more source coverage of Swift's appearances at the VMAs than that of her VMA wins. KyleJoan^talk 10:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

What about something like "one of the most-streamed artists on Spotify"? I still think Spotify is an important metric for a 21st-century musician, despite its (understandably) volatile nature. We can change "number-one songs" to "commercially successful hits" but then that could be POV. I'm thinking of reorganising the lead of this article in the style of other singer-songwriter FAs like Bob Dylan or Paul McCartney if that's a good idea. Ippantekina (talk) 11:03, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Both of those changes would be improvements–I'd prefer "song" or "single" over "hit" for neutrality. I don't believe there's any POV issue with "commercially successful" since that description is easily demonstrable as due. A major reconstruction appears to be necessary. Too many parts read as excessive, a glaring one being the different album musical styles, which sound like inappropriate attempts to illustrate Swift's versatility when the body includes nothing that suggests some of these claims (e.g., Lover being "eclectic"). Why not keep it simple and write that Swift originally established herself as a country artist, pivoted to pop starting with Red, fully became a pop artist with 1989, and delved into the indie genres with Folklore and Evermore? KyleJoan^talk 13:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking of the intro paragraph like this:

"Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. She has explored musical styles across country, pop, rock, and folk. Her personal songwriting with details from real-life relationships and experiences has made her a major figure in popular culture and earned her a devoted fanbase."

Ippantekina (talk) 15:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This is the same theme - devoted fanbase, major figure etc.... still fan point of view. I understand you are keen to show off devoted fanbase wiki. But think more neutral. Every artist has devoted fanbase. Swifties are not superior to other fanbase Gsgdd (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As a drive-by comment after seeing the DRN post, some thoughts on the article: The first paragraph... isn't a complete paragraph. It's a weird construction that doesn't organically grow out of the opening sentence and appears to be phrased the way it is to embed somewhat easter-eggy links to sub articles. I think part of the feel of it coming off as weirdly fannish is that there's no elaboration on this, and it makes much more sense discussed with her wider commercial success later on in the article. The Beatles is structured similarly, so there are articles that try and give a quick capsule overview before diving more into the subject in the subsequent lead paragraphs, but I think manages to explain the importance of the subject better and has much more concrete examples of influence and importance actually demonstrated. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As another drive-by comment: per Wikipedia:Record charts, single-retailer charts are generally unsuitable. Spotify absolutely qualifies as this, and it should probably be removed. Toa Nidhiki05 20:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

How about something like this?

Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. She is one of the world's best-selling artists, with 200 million records sold worldwide, as well as the highest-grossing female touring act and the first billionaire with music as the main source of income. Known for her detailed narrative songwriting, Swift's music career has made her a subject of widespread public interest and an influential figure in popular culture. Outside of music, she has directed and acted in films.

Swift signed with Big Machine Records in 2005 and released her self-titled debut album the following year, rising to prominence as a country pop singer. With her second album, titled Fearless (2008), and its singles "Love Story" and "You Belong with Me", Swift achieved crossover success on country and pop radio formats and mainstream fame. She experimented with different genres on Speak Now (2010) and Red (2012) and reached the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart with the latter's lead single, "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together". The synth-pop album 1989 (2014), which contained the songs "Shake It Off", "Blank Space", and "Bad Blood", marked Swift's departure from country music and recalibration of her image and sound to pop. Continued media scrutiny inspired her next album, Reputation (2017), and the song "Look What You Made Me Do".

After signing with Republic Records in 2018, Swift released Lover (2019), Midnights (2022), and The Tortured Poets Department (2024); explored indie folk styles on the 2020 albums Folklore and Evermore; and re-recorded four albums, subtitled (Taylor's Version), after a masters ownership dispute with her prior label. These albums spawned the commercially successful songs "Cruel Summer", "Cardigan", "Willow", "All Too Well", "Anti-Hero", "Is It Over Now?", and "Fortnight". Her Eras Tour (2023–2024) and its accompanying concert film are the highest-grossing tour and concert film of all time.

Swift's accolades include 14 Grammy Awards and a Primetime Emmy Award; she has won the Grammy Award for Album of the Year, the MTV Video Music Award for Video of the Year, and the IFPI Global Recording Artist of the Year a record four times each. Seven of her albums have opened with over one million sales in a week. Time magazine's Person of the Year in 2023, Swift has appeared on lists such as Rolling Stone's "100 Greatest Songwriters of All Time", Billboard's "Greatest of All Time Artists", and Forbes' "World's 100 Most Powerful Women".

KyleJoan^talk 01:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC) copyedited on 01:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I would argue against `Swift's music career has made her a subject of widespread public interest and an influential figure in popular culture.` in first paragraph. Popularity is subjective and changing. If you look at Forbes Celebrity 100 - she never been no. 1. I would argue some political leaders more popular than Swift or have more public interest.

Outside of music, she has directed and acted in films. this is not her strong suit - id skip this Gsgdd (talk) 01:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

US or United States?

Why are the US/UK country abbreviations changed to United States/United Kingdom? ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 23:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The two abbreviations should be used in all instances. Readers don't require that much spoonfeeding. KyleJoan^talk 01:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)