Talk:Tawula

Name dispute

See discussion at Talk:Backgammon#Resolution?. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:18, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: the article is fully sourced based on three historical WP:RS - Falkener, Murray and Bell. The last two are recognised experts in their field. Turkish Wikipedia is a tertiary source and not valid as a RS. Please explain which facts you are disputing and maybe we can resolve this. If your point is that Turks mainly play modern Western Backgammon rules today and call it Tawula or Tavla, that's fine, it can be added into the article if you can provide sources. Bermicourt (talk) 09:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

My point is that WP:PTOPIC for the title Tawula or Tavla is the game described at Backgammon, not the game described here. PTOPIC cannot be assessed by looking at three tertiary sources between 40-130 years old.

PTOPIC is the topic which is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

As I have described at Talk:Backgammon#Resolution?, 100% of search evidence online suggests users of the internet use the word Tavla or Tawula to describe Backgammon, not the game described here. In fact, not one Turkish google hit or Twitter search or YouTube video using these terms shows the game described in this article actually being played. Not one.

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:57, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I have been trying to find a better name for the article. This book may describe the game, but I don't have access to all the pages. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:29, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I now understand the source of this mess. Bell referenced Murray who referenced Falkener, whose experience of the game was almost 200 years ago. Murray consulted an Egyptian pupil in Nottingham who gave it the name Tawula (the Arabic pronunciation of Tavla, in modern times usually transliterated Tawleh). Onceinawhile (talk) 11:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia so we use the most WP:COMMONNAME for article topics. In the case of Backgammon the common name is... Backgammon. Not Tawla, Tawula or Tavla. The latter may be the most common name in Turkish for modern Western Backgammon or indeed for any tables game, but that is irrelevant to the Backgammon article. Meanwhile Tawula is used in English RS for the game as described. In view of the source dates, it is noted as [probably] 'historical' although some internet sites still use or quote these rules. If it it never existed you need to provide sources to prove that. If Tavla and Tawula are Turkish names for MWB then, to avoid confusion that can be added too. But please provide actual RS, not videos or journalistic blogs, that support what you're saying and we can move forward. Bermicourt (talk) 13:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

As an aside, please can we stop creating strawmen. No-one has suggested it never existed; that would be an absurd position to hold. Nor has anyone suggested that Tavla and Tawula are Turkish names [only] for MWB. Firstly, I have stated that Tawula is Arabic. Secondly, I have never suggested exclusivity, only primacy.

Separately, please could you consider being bold enough to acknowledge in this conversation that the primary evidence about actual usage of these terms is frequently suggestive of MWB. We both respect the WP:RS rules, but we are editors, not robots, and must not follow sources blindly. It is getting harder and harder to discuss this when you continue to sidestep acknowledging clear-cut evidence. If we both acknowledge what we can see in front of us, it will be much easier to understand each other and agree an outcome that we both agree makes sense. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:34, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

There are many RS which say Tawula = Backgammon, and that Tawula is an Arabic word [not Turkish], such as Islamic Art and Archaeology: Collected Papers. Gebr. Mann Verlag. 1984. p. 325. ISBN 978-3-7861-1412-3.

But you have overlooked the RS I provided in the past, and I suspect you will again.

I suspect the best possible source might be: https://tiedekirja.fi/en/tawula

It is described as: Folklore Institute Monograph Series. Slavica Publishers. 1979. p. 79. ISBN 978-0-89727-000-7. A short monograph on täwula (i.e. backgammon) as played in various areas of the Middle East. It describes many games, e.g. the three here.

Onceinawhile (talk) 14:23, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Tawula is Arabic - point taken. Both those other sources look useful. I'll track down Mala as I speak German. Bermicourt (talk) 14:51, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I will get hold of Barakat's Tawula. May take a week or so. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:08, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think we may be talking about two separate games here. I've just been compiling a table of the differences between various games and noticed that bkgm.com has a separate Tavla article which is missed off their list of Middle Eastern games. What's interesting is that it's based on emails from people who have actually played in the Middle East and recorded the differences between Tavla and Backgammon. Now of course these are not RS in Wikipedia terms, but they may be a truer, more up-to-date picture of how the game is actually played and it seems to tally quite well with what you've been saying. So a Westerner might say that "Tavla is Backgammon played the Middle Eastern way". Actually, if Backgammon originated in Nard which seems likely, it's more accurate to say that "Backgammon is Tavla played the American way". Meanwhile, Tawula looks like a different game from Tavla which may either be extinct or, if card game research is anything to go by, may still played in quiet backwaters of the Middle East.

Anyway, let's see what we can dig up. It would be good to find more RS on Tavla today. Bermicourt (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Aha. I have a copy of Mala. He begins by explaining that they don't talk about "Backgammon" in the Middle East, but about "Tavla, Tawula or Tabli depending on whether you're Turkish, Egyptian or Greek." That Tawula is an Egyptian word tallies with Falkener learning it from an Egyptian. Mala's source appears to be Turkish, however. He then goes on to describe 6 games.

• 1. Hep-Yek, a Turkish hitting game with a Backgammon starting layout; however bearing off requires an exact throw or you lose your turn; if your opponent also can't bear off, only then may you bear your highest placed man off. The special feature of this game is that, on throwing a double, you play the number 4 times as usual, but then you continue by playing the next lower number downwards until your play four 1s; if you can't go, the sequence is continued by your opponent. This is the same rule as in Gul Bara and Gioul except you go down to 1 instead of up to 6. Another rule is that any throws you can't use go to your opponent.
• 2. Gioul. In his version, this is Hep-Yek, but there is no hitting.
• 3. Izmir Tavla or Gülbahar. The latter name is apparently a common misspelling or mispronunciation of Gul Bara. The starting layout is as for Gul Bara - 15 men in your far right corner and both players move in the same direction. You then have to move your first man to your home table before you can move any others. This is a rule normally found in Fevga/Moultezim. And you must keep one space free in your opponent's entry table. In a variant, you may not have more than one man on a point except the starting point.
• 4. Esir. A Turkish pinning game. All 15 men start on the opponent's Ace-point and move in opposite directions around the board. You don't have to wait until all the men are off the start line before moving them on.
• 5. Mala Tavla. This is Mala's own development of Esir.
• 6. Hespe. This is an accidental invention of Mala's friend, Mehmet, who mistranslated Egyptian rules for Tavla. So e.g. the rule is that both players use each throw of the dice.

As usual Mala's a bit maverick, quite happy to invent his own rules. I don't know whether games 1-4 are genuine local variants or an expat's half-remembered rules. It would be useful to find authoritative books/accounts by nationals of the various countries. But I don't have those languages. However, I'm getting the impression that Tavla, etc. is often used like the English word "tables" used to be. So if you "played at tables" it just meant your were playing a game on a tables board, not a specific game. Just like saying you "playing cards" doesn't mean you're playing bridge. Hope that helps. Bermicourt (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. This is excellent additional information. I have a copy of Barakat coming, but don't have a date yet. Will post the key points here when I get it.

Regarding your last sentence above, re the names Tavla / Tawula / Tawleh etc (and almost certainly Greek Tabli too) being generic, that is undoubtedly correct. You and I are in agreement here.

There is a key difference, though, with respect to how these words are used in their native languages versus how the English word "tables" used to be used. At the time when there English word Tables had common currency, there was no "primary game" or "standardized version" in existance, just lots of different games. Today, one form of tables has clear global primacy over all others. MWB is widely played in the Middle East / East Med. Very widely. In my experience it represents the clear default game. But, unlike in the English language, “backgammon” doesn’t have a specific name, everyone calls it Tavla / Tawula / Tawleh / Tabli without further definition. Western scholars seem to have suggested names like Magrebieh (Western) / Franjieh (Frankish), but I do not believe these have any currency among common people. If you go to a cafe in the East Med and challenge someone to a game of tables, you’ll be playing backgammon.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:29, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Tables set from the Mary Rose

We're making good progress. Just to add to the use of "tables" in English. A number of sources especially in the past have assumed "tables" meant "backgammon" since no rules for "tables" had ever been found and the only game they knew played on a tables board was backgammon. Today, we know that there were eleven or more different tables games played then. But the mistake continues to be made - see the image of the Mary Rose tables set (you have to enlarge it to see the museum caption). The Mary Rose sank in 1545, a century before backgammon is first known! Bermicourt (talk) 07:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you. That caption is simply wrong; how on earth do the curators know that this board was used to play the "back game" version. Museums and scholars do this frequently in other areas, because it gets more interest from the public if they use labels connected to something well known.

Regarding the wider question, what we are missing is a piece of research that tells of story of MWB's achieving preeminence around the world, particularly in places where tables games were played for millennia. The same process happened with chess of course - look at Chess in Armenia#Early history. There is no way that the chess played in medieval Armenia was the same as MWC, but the article is written as if there was continuity.

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure that's right - the name "backgammon" attracts attention and sells books. That's why other equally good games are referred to as backgammon variants or "Foo Backgammon" even when they bear no resemblance to the modern game. The wildest one is Trictrac which looks interesting if you can spend the time to learn it. And nothing like backgammon apart from the board layout. You can win even with all pieces still on the board.

Chess - I've just read Parlett (1999) on the history of chess and wow - yes - we have no idea how Ur-Chess was played. And I hadn't realised that there were so many different national types: Chaturanga (Indian Chess) - the oldest form known, Xiang-qi (Chinese Chess), Changgi (Korean Chess), Sittuyin (Burmese Chess), Makruk (Thai Chess), Main Chator (Malay Chess), Cambodian Chess, Mongolian Chess, Persian Chess (Iranian Chess), Shatranj (Islamic Chess), European Chess and "orthodox" Chess. Not an area I know much about, but I'd be willing to bet that the word "chess" is bandied about a bit like "backgammon" without thought to the culture and the actual rules. But that's for another time! Bermicourt (talk) 19:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)