Talk:Tarrare

Note regarding referencing

As this contains a lot of rather outlandish-sounding claims, it's referenced far more heavily than usual, and citations are immediately next to the point being referenced, rather than at the ends of sentences/paragraphs. – iridescent 10:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

• The numbers (like eating his own weight of food a day) sound like another Mary Toft. Are there any modern evaluations if such gluttony is physically possible? Can a digestive system actually move food so quickly and relentlessly? East of Borschov (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
  • What you believe or don't believe is immaterial. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and thus we report what the sources say. In this case, they're unequivocal.[1][2] – iridescent 18:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
    • You jump to conclusions on other people's beliefs too early. After reading the article I struggle to make myself believe that my doctors did not borrow their unequivocal wisdom from the 1819 journals :)) East of Borschov (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
      • Not clear what point you're trying to make. I'm quite sure that they're all drawing from Percy's 1819 paper. I'm also aware that Percy was one of the leading surgeons in the French military and a leading writer in French medicine, and is impeccable as a source. – iridescent 18:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
        • There is no possible way to eat your own weight in a day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.60.151 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Quite possibly, but it's a direct quote from a reputable scientific journal, written by the only scientist to study him while he was alive, who had nothing to gain by lying or exaggerating. The exact text is "Il n'avait alors que 17 ans, et je lui a oui dire qui, pesant seulement cent livres (50 kilogrammes) , il etait deja, a cet age, en etat de manger, en 24 heures, un quartier de boeuf de ce poids" ("At the age of 17 and weighing only 100 livres (50 kg), he was eating, in 24 hours, a quarter of beef of the same weight"). – iridescent 23:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Is this article for real?

• Is this article for real? I find it unbeveliable. Toby Douglass (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes. – iridescent 14:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
• I suppose I'm more credulous than many, but I don't find this article unbelievable at all. (The "Did You Know..." blurb seemed far less believable, but that was because it didn't include the details.) It sounds like this poor bastard had a serious fault in his digestive system which prevented him from absorbing food properly; the stuff was just passing through him. Too bad that the nature of his problem is never properly explained. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 17:25, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
  • It was almost certainly some kind of fault in his digestive system, and he was forced to scavenge garbage and perform in the eighteenth century equivalent of geek shows to survive; France in this post-revolution period wasn't the modern welfare-state of today or even the vicious but ruthlessly efficient state built by Napoleon, but a country under total embargo by the Royal Navy, at war with most of its neighbours, and ripping itself apart internally through civil war. Whatever he was suffering from, while there aren't any recent cases I'm aware of there are certainly other well-documented cases from history; Tarrare's contemporary, the Polish soldier Charles Domery, appears to have suffered from the same condition, and relatively detailed records survive of his diet, appearance and behavior following his capture and internment by the British. However, none of the sources have anything more than the vaguest speculation as to the cause. The fact that neither high-dose laxatives (compressed tobacco, vinegar) nor medication to induce constipation (laudanum, high dosages of boiled eggs) appear to have any effect strongly implies that his digestive tract wasn't absorbing nutrition correctly, but nowhere does anyone actually say so. – iridescent 17:10, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
    • The book referenced in the preceding post also tells us of a man who lived to be 169 years old, so I don't think we are obliged to consider that particular source even remotely reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.189.206.174 (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
      • So, take your pick from 115 others, including Encyclopedia Britannica, the Annual Register or Charles Dickens. Both Domery and Tarrare existed, beyond any reasonable doubt. – iridescent 20:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
      • PS. We have an article about the man who lived to be 169, as well, if you really want something to get angry about. – iridescent 20:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
        • When you say Terrare "existed beyond any reasonable doubt," I wonder about that. It is beyond any reasonable doubt that an apparently reputable paper appeared in 1804 recounting the story. But could it have been a hoax? Or a real case, severely exaggerated? Prima facie, I don't see why not. Are there contemporary newspaper reports, military records, that sort of thing? Or is it all just repeating the original 1804 case report? EvanHarper (talk) 13:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
          • I think you may be misunderstanding how Wikipedia works. Even if military records etc existed which flatly contradicted the story as told by Percy, it wouldn't affect this article. Wikipedia's policy is that analytic or evaluative claims (that is, discussion of whether something is true) are based only on what is published in reliable secondary sources. Since in this case every secondary source to cover the subject treats Percy's account as accurate, Wikipedia does as well; I'm not aware of any secondary source to treat Percy's account as untrue. To reiterate, this was not an isolated case; as well as the aforementioned (and very well documented) Charles Domery in the same period, there's the extremely widely covered Lizzie Velasquez, who appears to be suffering from the same (or a very similar) condition and is alive, well, and living in Texas. – iridescent 14:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
            • Wait a minute here. What did I say that sounded like, "Wikipedia should treat Terrare's case history as inaccurate or of dubious accuracy?" All of your rigamarole about reliable secondary sources would have been relevant if I had said that, but I didn't. Rather I questioned "your analytic or evaluative claim (that is, discussion of whether something is true.)" And then you responded by saying, in effect, it doesn't matter whether something is true. Well, which is it? If it doesn't matter, why did you bring it up in the first place? How come you get to make claims about what you think is the WP:TRUTH, but when someone questions them, all of a sudden WP:RELIABLE SOURCES are all that matter?
            • You have covered this talk page with WP:OR claims; you are diagnosing the guy's medical conditions, for pete's sake. That's fine, it's all in good fun; you've been scrupulous about not putting such speculations into the article proper. But don't pretend like your speculations are fine, whereas my speculations are evil original research and I don't understand Wikipedia. EvanHarper (talk) 21:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
              • WP:OR can be quite useful if used on a talk page and not as a source for the article. If someone comes up with a personal experience or a scientific analysis that contradicts a claim, we can then search for citations to reliable sources either confirming or debunking the claim. Either way, Wikipedia is improved; either a change is made with a proper citation supporting it, or an existing claim that is likely to be challenged gets better citations. Guy Macon 17:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Scientific Basis

Have any specialists considered what caused his condition on a biochemical level? My suspicion is that he has an uncoupling disorder, so that his oxidative phosphorylation process mostly resulted in waste heat rather than useable energy. This seems to be supported by the fact that he was known to be very hot to the touch and sweat profusely etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.71.120 (talk) 13:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Almost certainly hyperthyroidism; thyroid disorders have always been statistically high in the Rhone-Alpes and Switzerland as the soil is very low in iodine. Today the French and Swiss governments lace school meals in the area with iodized salt, but obviously that wasn't an option in the eighteenth century. However, there were (obviously) no biochemical tests on him at the time, so it's impossible to say what the cause was. Jan Bondeson, who in his day job when not writing books is a lecturer in endocrinology and rheumatology, speculates that the cause may have been a damaged amygdala. – iridescent 2 14:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: Create a new section of modern views of what might have caused this.

If well referenced information exists on how different modern medical specialists or groups have commented on Tarrare's available medical data, that would be interesting in its own section, which I couldn't find in a skim of the article. It's beyond what I can do, so all I can do is suggest it. Thanks! --Geekdiva (talk) 01:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

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Problem with references

Half of the sources are from one person, Bondeson. Is this a problem? Worst Username (talk) 22:43, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

fat stomach

sources for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.201.118 (talk) 04:47, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2019

in the summary it reads "he would eat any available food from gutters and refuse heaps." I believe it should read "rubbish heaps," as it uses that phrase later in the summary. Caitlynlreilly (talk) 16:05, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Refuse and rubbish are synonyms. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:21, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone else find it strange that he would drink blood from the blood lettings?

I know he had an incredible hunger that never really could get quenched but that doesn't really explain why he would drink from a blood letting. Also why were they giving Tarrare puppies and kittens to eat, if the man is gonna eat a eel without chewing, he's gonna eat a dog, why even test that? like if he's willing to eat garbage and raw meat, what makes you think he's gonna draw the line at the pet store? I really wish we knew what happened to that fork, it's just more to the mystery of Tarrare i guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RIPXBrendan (talk • contribs) 14:23, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

While the medical science of the day wasn't sufficient to diagnose his specific condition, see Kleine–Levin syndrome for example; there are well-documented medical conditions in which polyphagia is accompanied by specific food cravings. Regarding his eating animals in the hospital, I think you're drawing a false equivalence between the culture of the present-day US and 18th-century France during the Reign of Terror; when it came to what constituted food, virtually anything that moved would have been considered fair game and stray dogs and cats are a lot cheaper from the hospital's viewpoint than buying in meat. Percy's original report on the case is here. ‑ Iridescent 20:56, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

He "attempted" to?

It says in the intro "he attempted to..."eat bodies, drink blood, blah blah. Didn't he succeed? Aven13 17:01, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Presumably caught getting into the medical waste/corpses in the mortuary and chased off. 31.185.62.240 (talk) 00:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

No pictures?

Why doesn’t this article have pictures of the man or x rays. Where are the sketches? CycoMa (talk) 16:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Because he died 40 years before the invention of the camera? ‑ Iridescent 16:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

There isn’t even sketches or drawings of the guy? Not even drawing of him in newspapers? CycoMa (talk) 22:38, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

He also died long before the invention of litho printing; the concept of "newspaper illustration" didn't exist. (We're talking about the Reign of Terror, anyway; what journalists were still alive were either fleeing the country, or publishing earnest tracts on the Triumph of Pure Reason.) The arts in Revolutionary France were essentially a propaganda branch of the National Convention; we have paintings of revolutionary martyrs and military victories from the period, but not much else. ‑ Iridescent 05:58, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

FAR might be needed

This article was promoted to FA status a decade ago and I don't think it currently meets the FAC criteria. Primarily:

• It fails 1b (comprehensive) and 1c (well-researched) because absolutely nothing is said about modern theories/comments on the case and the possible causes of Tarrare's condition. I was reading this casually and I was left wondering what ultimately was wrong with Tarrare. A talkpage section above speculates that it was most likely hyperthyroidism, but if true/reasonable it needs to be in the article and properly sourced. This is an egregious and conspicuous oversight that would cause this article to fail FAC were it nominated today.
  • Less important, but something to consider, is that all post-19th century sources on Tarrare are by Jan Bodensen. This isn't fatal – I've had FAs where one person wrote much of the sourcing – but it's something to look into in light of criterion 1c.
• To a lesser extent, it fails criterion 3 (media) because the only image provided is the cover page of Percy's case study. Surely, given Tarrare's freak nature and his unexpectedly slim physique, there would be at least one surviving depiction of him? This has been brought up in this talkpage before and the lack of images has been attributed to among other things the Reign of Terror. I find that rather fanciful, especially since the Reign of Terror ended in 1794 and the Reign of Tarrare ended in 1798, so I expect more effort in procuring an image of the gaunt glutton. That said, I understand that old niche figures can sometimes be forgotten in visual arts (see the case of Adrien-Marie Legendre), so if it's truly impossible to come by don't stress it too much. If there are plaques commemorating Tarrare, however, do take pictures of those.

If these issues are not rectified within two to three weeks this will have to be taken to featured article review and possibly demoted, sorry.

 – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 14:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@John M Wolfson: - Charles Domery might need examined, as well. Similar subject, with some of the similar sources. Hog Farm _Talk 19:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@John M Wolfson: - would you be interested in taking this one to FAR? It doesn't look like much has happened here. Hog Farm _Talk 15:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Commenting on 1b-1c the lack of hits here and the paucity of hits here seems like there isn't much more known about this guy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:52, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@John M Wolfson and Jo-Jo Eumerus: I don't see any significant edits to the articles to address JMW's concerns above. Are one of you interested in addressing these or do you want to bring this to WP:FAR? Z1720 (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I am not sure that these concerns are actually actionable - if there is no modern literature on the guy there is nothing that needs updating (talk page speculation doesn't count per WP:NOR), and if nobody has found any images there is nothing to add there either. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

lypodystrophy

he might have had lypodystrophy(which is why he was thin) or been resistant to leptin(which is why he was hungry)? 177.22.162.246 (talk) 06:37, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Obviously exaggerated

I do not have any technical knowledge of the regulations, but this article is obviously in need of revision to include that fact that the claims are in no way substantiated by science.

A human eating his or her own body weight is a problem from a physics perspective. Its flatly impossible and this article is holding these insane claims up as reality. It's nice that medical journals of the day said it was true. Unfortunately, the contemporary medical journals of the 1800s also had the latest information on race-based phrenology.

Tararre did what? ...no he didn't. Please fix this. 8.9.82.239 (talk) 03:14, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Logical problem

A person can only consume the total volume of their stomach.

A person's stomach is less than 100% of their weight.

A person can not consume 100% of their weight.

For that fact alone, this needs to he revised to include the notion that these ideas contradict all knowledge of science and likely fall into pseudoscience.

In a previous thread, someone from Wikipedia defended the veracity of this article by holding up the medical journal from the early 1800s. The Bible says Jesus was resurrected. The Lord of the Rings says that Gandalf was. Other medical Journals from the same time period say that Caucasian skulls represent ideal intelligence and superiority.

When science, logic, and common sense demonstrate something to he pseudoscientific, its a bad look for Wikipedia to hold this up as fact. 8.9.82.239 (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

The logic fails because

1. Volume is not necessarily the same as weight, so if the food is heavier than his body it can be possible.

2. His stomach has been recorded to expand heavily (his anatomy was likely not the same as a "normal" human) after eating.

3. The article states it was done in a day, meaning he had time to digest it. EIG520 (talk) 01:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)