Talk:Tarot (game)

• I don't think the two should be merged
• Neither do I; there seem to be notable differences - oppose. RedvBlue 17:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

• I support the merging of the section Tarocchi as a Game into this article; though there seem to be differences in the cards, the rules of the game are exactly those described in this article. The rest of the article could perhaps be merged into Tarot. Pruneau^talk 13:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• oppose: I don't feel that the 2 should be merged either - as above there are diffeneces and depending on which game someone wants to look up they should be told the exact rules/game play/traditions/styles/ (and anthing else!) for that game. Having a see also allows readers to see the other game and all things related to it. --Zarief 19:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• In the German Wikipedia, currently articles for all the games of the Tarocchi/Tarock/Tarot-family are created. I think it should be done the same here. If this is not wanted, however, the Tarot (game) article should be merged into Tarocchi, not the other way round, as Tarot is a member of the Tarocchi family! To the merge as suggested, I strictly oppose. --KnightMove 10:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• I support an introductory page with all of the tarot family of card games listed. Ideally this should be under tarot, but there you run into the conflict with the occultists. The name in the English language for the family of card games is Tarot, and since this is the English version of Wikipedia, the term in English should be the prefered one. In other languages it is Tarock, Taraut, Tarocco (Tarocchi), etc. They are all related trick-taking card games with a common origin. That is why they are all included in Michael Dummett's book The Game of Tarot . They do not use identical cards of course. That is because of divergences in playing card fashions and suit signs in each region. In german speaking areas of Switzerland, they use the 1JJ Tarot pack with Italian suit signs. In Sicily, they use the unique Tarocco Siciliano pack. There are also Tarocco Piedmontese, Tarocco Bolognese, and other packs from Milan, etc. There are at least three distinct versions of the Austrian-style Tarock pack. Then there are the French tarot versions with the arabic numerals on the top. These are all tarot playing cards, and are used to play related games. The question is, why are Tarock and Tarocchi on the same page, while French Tarot is on another? Tarock and French Tarot have french suit symbols, while Tarocco uses Italian suit signs. There should be one introductory article for the family of tarot games (similar to the presentation in the Tarocchi article), then individual main articles on each regional variation (with cards used, style of play, regional variations, etc.). This is what is done with other cards games such as Rummy, where there are many variations and regional games. Most of the Rummy family of games are listed in a special section of the article. I think that Tarot (game) should be the general page, and perhaps a special page created for "French Tarot", Tarocco (Tarrochi), Troccas (Swiss), Austrian-style Tarock, and Minchiate. The problem with all this evidently arises due to the unique situation of one family of card games having varying playing card standards in various regions. -- Parsa 21:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Things that aren't clear

• What does the term chief mean? I assume it's the person who wins the bid.
• What's the order of the cards? I assume 2-10, Page, Knight, Queen King Ace?
• I'm not clear on the significance of the bids. The first bid sounds like you're just bidding to make the 56 points, then doubling the stake you could lose, and then increasing the stake but improving your odds by adding the dog to your score, then upping the stakes further by having the dog count for whoever wins the hand.... I'm not clear on what the advantage is to making a bid or what the disadvantages are for making the last two higher bids.

--BigCow 05:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Good questions, BC. I've inserted an explanation of the ranking. In tarot card games, Aces do not rank high. "Chief" is somebody's idea, not mine, of translating the word "preneur" You've guessed correctly. It is the person winning the bid. I think "taker" would be a better translation.

The number of points needed depends on how many of the oudlers (excuse, petit, #21) one has gained in his won tricks.

With 3 bouts the taker needs at least 36 card points to win; With 2 bouts the taker needs at least 41 card points to win; With 1 bout the taker needs at least 51 card points to win; With 0 bouts the taker needs at least 56 card points to win.

Smiloid 22:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Trump symbolism

Smiloid has been fighting the good over in the general tarot article. That page is a real mess. It really should be general, but what it turns out to be is a distasteful melange of fact and fantasy. It's full of weasel words and phrases, and their are few references for the good reason that the divinatory origins of the game are false. Personally, I have no objects to having a section on divination on the main page. It's a fact that the cards are used for this purpose. I don't even have an objection to a section on belief in esoteric origins, but it needs to be stated as originating with 18th century occultists, and clear references need to be given to these individuals and their works.

I agree that from the main article there should be two separate articles: Tarot (game) and Tarot (divination). Divination is largely an Anglo-Amercan bias. I also agree that Tarocchi and Tarot (Game) should be a single article.

All that being said, the sad thing is that the true symbolism of the cards is lost in all the esoteric hooey. The triumph cards really do feature interesting symbols, and this cultural symbolism should be addressed in a scientifically historical manner. I've been doing the same with Japanese Hanafuda cards. Those cards are fairly recent, but the symbolism in them goes back hundreds of years to China. In fact, the Hanafuda cards are like a time capsule of the most popular artistic symbols in Japan. I've been collecting images of old paintings from Japan and China that show the same symbolism found in the Hanafuda cards. For example the January cards show a pine tree and a crane. This combination of a crane on a pine is very ancient, and I've found a great many paintings from Japan and China showing the pair.

Although I've just obtained a copy of The Game of Tarot and started reading it, I've already read Dummett's two other books on the history of the occult tarot. I'm not sure what if anything he says about the card symbols... it is a big book! I would be interested to see a Wiki article on the true origins of the triumph symbolism. It's not related to game play, but it is interesting from an artistic and cultural standpoint. -- Parsa 19:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Please forgive me in advance for any lack of proper formatting - I am new to Wikipedia editing and I don't have a good handle on all of this yet. However, since this topic - Tarot, especially as a card game - is one I feel passionately about, I would like to get involved in this discussion.

• Parsa - I agree with you that there could (should?) be more information on the symbolism behind the Trumps. Could this be a spin-off page from the main Tarot page, parallel to the discussions of Tarot for divination and Tarot as a game? There would be a lot of openings for links here, especially to iconography, Renaissance history, Italian and French history, etc.

• I don't agree with merging the Tarocchi and Tarot pages - at least, not based on how they are currently written. The Tarocchi article is more a discussion of the deck itself, whereas the Tarot page is a discussion of a game variant using that deck. What I would propose would be leaving the two articles separate, but adding more articles discussing the other variants. Then the Tarocchi page could become a 'parent' page with links to separate 'child' pages for each individual game variant.

• I would also like to see some information on the history of Tarot usage in literature - from my own experience, I'm thinking of Williams' 'The Greater Trumps,' Dorothy Dunnett's 'The Game of Kings,' and a few others. Just a point of personal interest. Piano-one 20:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)