Talk:Taharrush gamea/Archive 1

Archive 1

Edit war

This piece is showing all the unfortunate signs of other controversial articles with lots of reverts. This is a terrible way to work. It wastes much time and generates lots of stress without helping the readers. I propose that substantive changes be hashed out on Talk before they go into the article. I expect lots of other editors to show up given the currency of the topic and I hope that everybody will welcome them rather than tossing out good faith efforts without discussion. Cheers! Lfstevens (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

German article

I have provided some scientific sources on the article in the deWP and made it nearly AfD safe. While the German article still has some issues (and an ongoing afd), its now more on the WP snow side. I will add some of my foundings here as well. The article here lacks e.g. the Egyptian political cloud and historical background.Polentarion Talk 00:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Expert commentary

So here's the first comment from a Swedish-language source that interviewed people working for HarassMap in Egypt.[1] The term is simply the Arabic words for "group harassment" but not a specific cultural practice. Sexual harassment is a huge problem for women in Egypt, but there's no indication that it's organized. The only exception is what happened during the 2011 protests which was politically motivated violence.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

No one claims that it is an "organized" practice. It's a cultural practice. And the question at issue is how this term is being used in contemporary European discourse. Words and phrases cross borders and shift meanings. I think the usage in this: [2] BBC article is especially pertinent, coming as it does form a German government report. But, truly, the behavior is real. Groups of young men do surround and forcibly grope young women. As I have said above in this discussion, I would prefer an English term. And a term that encompasses the bad behavior of young men of sundry ethnic backgrounds. But I am finding myself unable to dismiss the deluge of reporting now using this term in this way, in more than one country and several languages.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I have no trouble changing the title as long as it is specific to this multinational phenomenon. The scale of the Cologne events suggests at least a flash mob level of organization is present, but we need sources to make that call for us. Lfstevens (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I provided some real sources which can be used to cover HarassMap en detail. The term is much more than the Arabic words for "group harassment" and started as a government practice. IN so far its begin is closely related to Egypt, but the the behavior spread. Polentarion Talk 01:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Is this a tabloid article or Actually academic

The use of the term seems highly controversial for one.

Academic sources do not exist. References prior to the tabloid news frenzy before 2016 do not exist on the internet.

Is this article being written as a News article? Does it follow WP:NOPOV ? Does this align with WP:NOR ?

Pranav (talk) 12:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

PLease read the current version. Academic sources exist and have been introduced. Polentarion Talk 16:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

It looks NPOV enough to me. Zezen (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Revert

Another editor incorrectly reverted my addition of the attacks in Sweden, while correctly asserting that the source did not use the term. However, the term describes those attacks as much as it does the others that remain in the article. Thus the reversion makes no sense. I do not edit war, but I would appreciate comments from other editors. Lfstevens (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

This issue has been widely reported in Sweden, but with no indication that it has been organized or that it's related to Arabic culture. Here's a background summary in Aftonbladet.[3] A festival worker published a debate article denying that the purpetrators were immigrants or refugees.[4] So how exactly are you associating these two articles?

Peter ^Isotalo 20:39, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Sweden's Prime Minister is associating immigrants with incident, I'm just citing him. And press reports:[5].E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:17, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

The term is being used in Swedish reports: [6], [7], [8]. I do not see that anyone is accusing Arab men, but they are saying migrants, refugees. this story is developing fast, these usages may postdate Perer Isltalo last look at recent sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

The first source is Nyheter Idag and is widely considered sensationalist and it only mentions Germany. The third one is Samtiden, a newspaper that is owned by the Sweden Democrats and is hopelessly biased.

Only the second one, Norwegian Fedrelandsvennen seems to make any connection, but it's unclear since it's behind a paywall. It's also not a news article but an opinion piece.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I can't really judge reliability of Swedish and Norwegian sources, but something like "considered sensationalist", "hopelessly biased" (in your opinion) or "behind a paywall" is generally not a sufficient reason for excluding sources. Also note that you already violated WP:3RR rule on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 21:46, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

and the connection between the sexual assaults by groups of young immigrants in Sweden and those in Germany is also drawn: [9] by The Guardian, that hopelessly biased, fiercely pro-immigration newspaper. Really, we can't exclude a paper owned by a major force in Swedish politics such as Sweden Democrats. It is part of the conversation.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Party media are normal business in a lot of European countries. I would include as well a see also on the 2000 puerto rico parade incidents. Polentarion Talk 19:02, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Rape in Egypt into this article (closed)

Rape is not the adequate word. The article lacks scientific sourcing (which us available) and does not cover the political intentions of sexual harrassment being directed against female activsists in the public space Polentarion Talk 16:31, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• No: I am against it. It happens a lot outside of Egypt by now. Zezen (talk) 16:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• No. None of the sources tells this is merely a rape, and none of the sources tell this happens only in Egypt. All sources call this differently. My very best wishes (talk) 16:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Keep the page as it is. We do not need an English word for this, there is no English equivalent. No not merge this with any other page. SlowIsSmoth (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2016 (UTC)SlowIsSmooth

• No, as per WP:POINTY. This article is about a form of sexual assault that does not usually escalate to rape.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I have used the wrong template. I would prefer to reduce Rape in Egypt to a redirect. Polentarion Talk 18:56, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. Rape in Egypt is one of 34 WP pages entitled Rape in (name of country Rape in Egypt is an appropriate article, just like Rape in Germany or Rape in China.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• I suggest that we act boldly and close this non-policy informed and pointless discussion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• • Point is the largest part of Rape in Egypt is not about rape. In so far lets close it. This is a case where WP:Merging Overlap applies, since we have two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Moving content to a suitable article is policy based and -informed. Polentarion Talk 19:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• Agree that Rape in Egypt needs expansion. The fact that the article needs expansion is not a valid argument for deletion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I meant to reduce Rape in Egypt, as said and start to use real sourcing overthere. E.g., as mentioned in the Taharrush sources, the penal code has no working paragraph on rape, an not much (till 2014, due to a Taharrush case on a Law University campus) against harrassment. The victim is always in danger to be accused of adultery. Taharrush - molestation - is a everyday experience for any woman in a public space. Polentarion Talk 21:35, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• DO NOT merge, 'coz New Year's Eve sexual assaults in Germany are Taharrush too (Idot (talk) 04:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC))

• No, as per E.M.Gregory. --tickle me 09:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
• NO but reduce overlaps. Close. Polentarion Talk 13:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• I see no justification for moving content here. It would be far more appropiate to move rape in Egypt to sexual assault in Egypt to get wider coverage and merge part of this article elsewhere. This article is mostly about European perceptions about sexual violence by non-europeans. It's about a term as used in the European press and politics more than any actual cultural trait or even sexual harassment or assault as such. Peter ^Isotalo 14:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Denial is not a solution

Deletion of this article will not change real life events, but will destroy Wikipedia neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.136.134.4 (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Inadequacy of the page

At best, creating an article with a specific linguistic name can appear as a manner to essentialise it. At worst, it is a bad attempt to politicise Wikipedia. I suggest the article to be removed and the information to be relocated in appropriate and existing pages, such as "Sexual harassment" and "Violence against women". The sources and the date of creation of the page, as well as its use on the Internet, indicate rather clearly that the aim of this page is not to enlighten but to manipulate. 92.20.56.248 (talk) 08:26, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed this is just a word for gang rape that has its roots in Egypt. Like I said further up the page, this is nothing specific to Egypt, gang rape is sadly pretty common, especially when societies breakdown. This word and these case deserve a mention but only as part of the general topic of gang rape. Ive added sexual harassment, violence against women and rape culture to the links at the end of the page as it really was stupid and pretty racist just to have Eve Teasing as the only link!

Linguistic name or not, the term does exist and has been written about for some years at least. If this information is moved to other pages than this term should label it there.

Answer to the politicising Wikipedia comment: Wikipedia (just like any other encyclopedia) is a work in progress. Just the fact that a new obscure term or subject worthy of an article is made into an article after it was brought to the attention of the public by a political development, that does not mean it is not a valid encyclopedia entry. Gang rape has it's own page, and so does Eve Teasing. There is enough of a difference between these and the taharrush, in my opinion, to give each their own page.S. Textor (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

This does deserve it's own page, since the phenomenon seems to have unique characteristics, particularly the fact that the acts are committed fully in public, by multiple actors in large crowds, apparently only in only a semi-coordinated way, and seemingly without sufficient dissenters in those crowds to stop the perpetrators. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1811:3502:6600:F8BE:FBCB:D751:904 (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Incidents in Stockholm and Istanbul

Shouldn't those incidents also be included? I think at least western press draws parallels to Cologne and Cairo. E.g. [10] [11] [12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketil (talk • contribs) 12:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

The Stockholm incident had been reverted because it did not mention the article topic taharrush gamea "by name", which I see as a reason for #Renaming to "a descriptive phrase in plain English" as per WP:NEO. Oliv0 (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Right, I don't find a lot of heavy-weight international media who use that particular term about the Stockholm incident. Some local ones are [13] and [14] and [15]. There should be many sources drawing parallels between Cologne, Stockholm, Helsinki, etc though - so perhaps the page does need a different name, after all. Possibly the term is more frequently used by sources critical of immigration and/or islam? Ketil (talk) 09:21, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Why?

just a question: since this is english wikipedia why constantly use the term "Taharrush" instead of "harassment" throughout the article? I thought the novelty here is the "collective" aspect of it? harassment in itself is by no means a new or an untranslatable ethnic concept that has to use an un-english word to convey its meaning. --Amanouz (talk) 15:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I juts came from the deWP, we have now a serious article about Sexual violence in Egypt and newsticker prone Bullshit for the Taharrusch. I had intendend to keep that different, but such is life... Polentarion Talk 20:35, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Taharrush = harassment. The group aspect is jamai (gamea, "collective"). This important article (lemma) is about Taharrush jamai (Taharrush gamea). 79.251.107.180 (talk) 21:48, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

79.251.107.180 selective reading of this page --Amanouz (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Daily Mail article [16]

According to an article in the wide-circulation British newspaper Daily Mail of 19 January 2016 [17], Tahharush is an established and rising trend: "The Arabic gang-rape 'Taharrush' phenomenon which sees women surrounded by groups of men in crowds and sexually assaulted... and has now spread to Europe. The Arabic term 'taharrush' roughly translates to 'collective harassment'. It refers to sexual assaults carried out by groups of men in public places". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.102.145 (talk) 12:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

In fact of course the Arabic term تحرش taḥarrush only translates to "harassment, molestation" (from حرش ḥarasha "provoke, scratch", akin to Hebrew חרש ẖarash "carve, plough"). Oliv0 (talk) 15:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

PLease take the controversial careeer of the term in Egypt into account. Scholarly treatment see Abdelmonem. Polentarion Talk 19:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)