Talk:Taíno/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Statements of interest in the article's topic

In a page like this, what is important is a balance of academic and indigenous community perspective. I have noticed from my earlier edits that my perspective as a Taino, have been altered time and time again.

I would like to inform those making future edits that I will remain diligent and continue to educate persons with respect to Taino culture in the best way possible. That includes revisting this page and making sure the Taino perspective is well represented.

I look forward to any dialogue on this matter.

Bo'matum (Thank you), Roberto Mucaro Borrero

Dear Relatives and friends, I, who am an elder and the hereditary Cacique (Chief) of the Jatibonicu Taino People of Boriken (Puerto Rico), do hereby support the efforts being put fourth by, Mr. Roberto Mucaro Borrero, as he attempts to present a more trueful history of the surviving Taino people of the circun Caribbean, from the viewpoint and prespective of one of the surviving descendants of the Taino Native American Indian people. I say to those people who are foolishly attempting to distort and re-edit these pages that, We whom are the last of the surviving Taino People, shall with the grace of the Great Spirit, prevail, no matter what you may be attempting to do to distort the truth. Signed by, Cacique Pedro Guanikeyu Torres, Han-Han Catu (And Let it be so) (Signed and sealed on this 1 day of February 2006. [[1]].

One of the many lies that has been pushed to the Natives or aborigine of the Americans is the creation of fakes tribes, tribes that the only purpose in life is to make money out of our culture. one of the most recent one, is the tribe of tainos which it was created by the government with the only purpose to destroy our culture this tribe or Nation was decimated by the Europeans living zero survivors and I mean zero which it means there was no chance for Mestizaje now they found dna which link them to siberia's people, but lets be honest thats siberia and in no way means that they automatically taino remember this Island was one of the most multiracial groups and they only found 10% of a Siberia DNA and no Native America DNA is believe that our ancestor came from Siberia,but its just a theory for many centuries we have been told that the south is different from the north and the Center doesn't exist. many tribes in United States are integrated by African,Asians,Caucasian and a very small percent of Native Americans and this is because the government pushed them to the reservation making the Indians accept the nonIndians or suffer the consequence Yusulpayki Yopi Cawa≥

To Mr. Berrero

Mr. Berrero, I am a teenager of partial Taino descent who is interested finding out more about Taino culture and history than this short encyclopedia entry would allow. To be completely correct, I am not 'sure' that I am Taino, but I do know that I am descended of Cuban Indians, and that sort of makes Taino the most likely. I know a bunch about my European heritages, and even quite a bit about modern Cuba. But I now wish to know about these ancient inhabitants of those sun-washed islands, the land of my father's fathers. In short, my interest has been piqued. I would appreciate it if you could tell me where I can find resources that would help me. Please leave another message here if your interested, and we can figure something out. Bo'matum, KC Lopez

barbecue

It is claimed that the word 'barbecue' comes from the Taíno language. If this is true, it would be a nice fact to add to the article. If it's not, it could be explained in the barbecue article...

The Tainos used the word "barbacoa" when referring to an observation post built in the fields to watch the crops. It was made of wood and high enough to watch the fields. There is probably no relation to the modern barbecue. Carmen

Well the RAE dictionary doesn't rule it out. It says of the spanish word barbacoa: Quizá del taíno barbacoa, conjunto de palos puestos sobre un hueco a manera de parrilla, para asar carne. — Perhaps from the Taino barbacoa, set of sticks placed over a hollow in the way of a grill, for roasting meat.

— Hippietrail 09:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Barbacoa, Canoa, and Hamaca are all taino words which have crossed over into Spanish and English (barbecue, canoe, hammock). As I understand it, this is generally accepted by historians of Latin America.

~Micah

Looking for Information...

Last year I prepared a research paper on the subject of Taíno religion, primarily using the sources listed below. Not all of them cover the Taínos exlusively, but they all contribute something. Maybe in the future I'll try and expand upon the encyclopedia entry.

Bray, Warwick, ed. The Meeting of Two Worlds. New York: Oxford University Press, 1993.

Cook, Noble. “Sickness, Starvation, and Death in Early Hispaniola.” Journal of Interdisciplinary History 32.3 (2002): 349-386.

Curet, Antonio. “Descent and Succession in the Protohistoric Chiefdoms of the Greater Antilles.” Ethnohistory 49.2 (2002): 259-280.

Livi-Bacci, Massimo. “Return to Hispaniola: Reassessing a Demographic Catastrophe.” Hispanic American Historical Review 83.1 (2003): 3-51.

Olsen, Fred. On the Trail of the Arawaks. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1974.

Pané, Ramón. “The Relación of Fray Ramón Pane.” Emory College. Nov. 11, 2004 http://www.college.emory.edu/culpeper/BAKEWELL/texts/panerelacion.html.

Randzens, George, ed. Technology, Disease and Colonial Conquests. Boston: Koninklijke Brill, 2001.

Rouse, Irving. The Tainos. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1992.

Royal, Robert. 1492 And All That. Lanham: Ethics and Public Policy Center, 1992.

Sauer, Carl Ortwin. The Early Spanish Main. Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1966.

Sokolow, James. The Great Encounter. Armonk: M.E. Sharp, 2003.

Stannard, David. American Holocaust. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.

Stevens-Arroyo, Antonio. Cave of the Jagua: The Mythological World of the Tainos. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1988.

Thomas, Hugh. Rivers of Gold. New York: Random House, 2003.

Accuracy of existing Taino

I'm not sure how accurate it is to claim that there are still Taino indians out there. I know that many Puerto Ricans claim to be Tainos, but I doubt the truthfulness of this claim. It's not likely many Tainos ventured to Puerto Rico where their bitter enemies, the Caribs lived.

The only Tainos still around would be of mixed Taino/African decent. Those who mated with African slaves who they often worked with side by side before the pure Tainos were all killed. It's impossible to know how much of their blood is still out there, but we do know that their culture has been completely irradicated. The Taino genocide was the most complete genocide of all of history. I doubt any non-Haitian Taino blood still exists.

Submitted to Wikipidea on 01/02/2008, Roberto Mucaro Borrero writes: “The above statement is racist, and full of unfounded assumptions. I find that the entire Taino article is frought with this anti-Taino perspective, which is surprising in that this Taino article is lauded as “high-quality” and “important”.

What I would again like to stress is that I have written comments here before from a Taino perspective and my comments are continuously deleted by the so-called editors who are not Taino nor do they have any articles published on my culture themselves.

While scholars and racists can argue the authenticity of “Taino claims”, the Taino People continue to advance promotion for the recognition and respect for our rights as indigenous peoples. Our claims are well are valid within the realm of international law and should not be subject to the whims of non-indigenous anthropologists or amateur historians. We, the Taino People exist and continue to affirm our culture.

Our continuous presence to contemporary times is well-recorded in history books as well as in scholarly articles. These books and passages are interestingly not mentioned here. I also notice that besides myself, no Taino scholars are included in this dialogue while it is verifiable that we exist and are published. One only needs to Google Jose Barreiro or even my name to verify this. Perhaps you can begin by reading “Rethinking Taino: A Taino Perspective” an essay found in Taíno Revival: Critical Perspectives on Puerto Rican Identity and Cultural Politics.Edited by gabriel haslip-viera. Princeton: Markus Weiner, 2001.

On an additional note, the arguments relating "full blood" or “mixed ancestry” to “authenticity” is also another blatant attempt to denigrate our claims to affirm our ancestral heritage. These “racial” concepts are of European origin and not of indigenous origin. Further, that the so-called Carib were our “bitter enemies” is also an exaggeration and manipulation of the facts.

This article which claims to have been subjected to “peer review” is most disturbing as the “authors” seek to suggest that the reality of the Taino people was completely homogeneous, and static.

I am seriously considering reporting this article and the continued deletion of my comments to the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues to expose this web services bias and bigotry toward indigenous peoples. If this is a true, legitimate source of information, my comments will finally be left here so that others can view the above and below “informative sources” for what they are: non-Taino writing about Taino People.” Roberto Mucaro Borrero 21:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Please submit the article to whatever committee/forum you desire. Wikipedia has rules regarding verifiable claims and reliable sources. You may "claim" whatever you wish but until there are published scientific sources to back these claims Wikipedia rules will not accpet their publication. Joelito (talk) 21:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Where are the sources of scholars who claim pureblooded Tainos survived slavery?

Puerto Rico was settled by Tainos, not Caribs. Recent studies have found that over 50% of Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mitochondrial DNA. It cannot be said with certainty that this is Taino and not South American blood, it's most parsimonious to assume that this is substantially Taino blood. There was extensive intermarriage with Spanish settlers - few African slaves were imported were present in the early stages in Puerto Rico. In the Dominican Republic there is much more evidence of Taino survival and intermarriage. There are reports of Tainos being "extinct" alongside contemporary reports of Taino villages. On the other hand, in Haiti there is likely to be very little Taino ancestry - Haitians are either African (the vast majority) or mulatto.

There are few credible reports of "pure" Tainos surviving until the abolition of slavery. But there is overwhelming evidence of them having a major impact on the modern population of the Greater Antilles. Guettarda 00:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, do you have any resources from scholars about Tainos in Puerto Rico, or the scientists that di did the DNA testing you talked about? A name or anything would do, I'd like to try and track down the original sources of this. I am a Haiti buff, so I had not heard this about Puerto Rico. Indeed I had been taught that Puerto Rico acted as a hub for the Caribs who also inhabited northeastern Dominica. I was under the impression that the Tainos were only on Hispaniola. Thanks.

There are many current studies that are actually trying to prove that Caribs and Tainos were the same people. Borike (Puerto Rico) was settled by Tainos. In fact the southern Tainos of the island had close relations with the Tainos in the island of Haiti (Hispaniola). The site of the Research of Taino Native American Blood in Puerto Rico is: http://members.dandy.net/~orocobix/pr-taino-dna.htm

I will look up more information about the research about the Caribs and the Tainos, but if you get a chance there is an etnohistographer (? etnohistografo) called Jalil Sued Badillo. His works are mostly about these themes. Another good source for info is Jose Ortiz Aguilu a Puertorican archaeologist. Currently they are professors in the University of Puerto Rico and they are experts in these themes. look tainos came from the tribe call tarainos between venezuela and colombia, when the Europeans came to the Island they made a union with the Caribs and small tribes to fight the European and yeah there were more Caribs than other small tribes what happen is many people want to pretend that they came from the North that they have to make their own theory to fit their own lies

Need to add Taino mythology

I came across this article hoping to find information about Taino/Arawak mythology. Specifically their creation myth. This article does discuss about the father/son battle and the breaking of the gourd, which after research of my own I believe this to be their creation myth, but I'm not for certain. Anyone who has knowledge on Taino mythology should add the information that they know.

Dunno if Sued Badillo is the best person, I find him a little too dogmatic. However, his ideas may have some validity will post more tomorrow (El Jigüe, 10/13/2005) One of the many lies that has been pushed to the Natives or aborigine of the Americans is the creation of fakes tribes, tribes that the only purpose in life is to make money out of our culture. one of the most recent one, is the tribe of tainos which it was created by the government with the only purpose to destroy our culture this tribe or Nation was decimated by the Europeans living zero survivors and I mean zero which it means there was no chance for Mestizaje now they found dna which link them to siberia's people, but lets be honest thats siberia and in no way means that they automatically taino remember this Island was one of the most multiracial groups and they only found 10% of a Siberia DNA and no Native America DNA is believe that our ancestor came from Siberia,but its just a theory for many centuries we have been told that the south is different from the north and the Center doesn't exist. many tribes in United States are integrated by African,Asians,Caucasian and a very small percent of Native Americans and this is because the government pushed them to the reservation making the Indians accept the nonIndians or suffer the consequence Yusulpayki Yopi Cawa≥

Might have married...

I don't understand why an anon insists on changing: "They took many Taino wives in civil marriages, and had mestizo children" to "They might have taken Taino wives in civil marriages, and had mestizo children". Is there some rationale for insisting on this change? Guettarda 16:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

G: Good shot. That should have read "They took Taino women and had children in casual intercourse, common law or religious marriages." (El Jigüe, 10/9/2005)

The supporting reference when examined does not support the claim that "They took Taíno wives in civil marriages, and had mestizo children."[2]

2. ^ Criollos: The Birth of a Dynamic New Indo-Afro-European People and Culture on Hispaniola. Guitar, Lynne. 2000. "Criollos: The Birth of a Dynamic New Indo - Afro - European People and Culture on Hispaniola." KACIKE: The Journal of Caribbean Amerindian History and Anthropology, 1(1): 1-17 http://www.kacike.org/LynneGuitar.html

From the KACIKE "journal" article: http://www.kacike.org/LynneGuitar.html

Where did all these “others” come from? Most documents and chronicles of the era make it clear that "Spaniards" began fathering criollo children with Taíno women (indias) almost from the moment that Christopher Columbus's ships made landfall on Hispaniola on December 9, 1492.(3)

(3)The word “Spaniards” appears in quotes because it is unclear how many of the men who came to Hispaniola from Europe were of mixed Spanish-African inheritance. There were also “ladinos,” Hispanicized Africans among them, who were not distinguished from Spaniards in the records, a subject treated in more detail in the above-mentioned dissertation. I use the word "criollo" (usually defined as "American born") or the term "mixed-blood" throughout this chapter, even though "criollo" was not used in the documents of the era. I do this because the term “mestizo” (literally "mixed"), which was used in the documents and chronicles, had and still retains the concept of mixed European and Indian bloodlines, without considering the African component.

Clearly the reference in the KACIKE "journal" article has no supporting documentation to back up this claim of marriages, fathering children, or even that any did occur. Reference [3] does not even address the point of fathering children. The reference is to the word "Spanish" and why it is in quotes. Furthermore, there is nothing in the KACIKE "journal" article that supports the claim that marriages occurred. As a result the Wikipedia entry on this point is unsupported as well. Furthermore, Nothing in this KACIKE "journal" article can be used since the "journal" article itself is just an opinion piece on the subject of fathering children.

This is why I changed it back to the more accurate "They might have taken Taíno wives in civil marriages, which could have resulted in mestizo children."

Additionally, I suggest that this statement be stricken until there is some actual supporting evidence from a scholarly work. It is pointless to put out statements of myth and hold them up to be facts. The KACIKE website is not a peer-reviewed journal. A look at what they have "published" is completely one-sided and biased since they are a pro-Taino website. Indeed, if there was evidence of that the Spaniards took Taino wives and had offspring, it more than likely would be in the Irving Rouse book which predates the pro-Taino groups current attempts to create a present day Taino racial group of people. Since there is nothing in the Rouse book, which is extensively used as support for most of this Taino entry, this myth should not be presented as a fact in anyway. Clearly the Taino were wiped out in the 1600s and there is no evidence of a present day Taino people.

I think this entry is full of myths and half-truths masquerading as facts to serve the pro-Taino groups' interests. I would hope that evidence be demanded for these types of claims in the future. (erichb1, 5/16/2007)

Roberto Mucaro Borrero submits: The above constitutes another sad, and in my opinion, very racist statement, which is made clear by "erihb1" when this editor remarks "Clearly the Taino were wiped out in the 1600s and there is no evidence of a present day Taino people." and "I think this entry is full of myths and half-truths masquerading as facts to serve the pro-Taino groups' interests."

What the facts are is that the "evidence" meaning the historical data has been clearly manipulated and erroneous commentary about the Taino or Indios of the islands has been promoted generationally by an elitist education system. For example, in Salvador Brau y Asencio's Puerto Rico y su Historia, Editorial IV, Centenario, San Juan (1972) he clearly states that "Indian" classification was used in the island's census reports until the year 1800 when it was removed and the category "pardos libres" (free colored) was instituted thereafter. Brau also cites continuous "Indian offenses" meaning revolts in Puerto Rico from the year 1512 - 1625 (pg. 264).

Further, if you are citing Rouse then it must be noted that in his book "Tainos", he admits that persons of Taino ancestry continue to exist primarily in the Spanish-speaking islands, and most staunchly in Puerto Rico.

So the idea that the "Indian" did not survive in the islands, especially Puerto Rico is a fallacy and the almost religious adherence to the contrary should give a strong indication to the motives of many of these editors. Roberto Mucaro Borrero 21:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you please provide a quote and page number from Rouse where he states that he admits that "persons of Taino ancestry continue to exist primarily in the Spanish-speaking islands, and most staunchly in Puerto Rico". He claims in page 161 that "Even though the Tainos themselves are extinct, persons claiming Taino ancestry have survived in all three of the Spanish-speaking countries:the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and Cuba". This is much different than your statement. Joelito (talk) 00:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Page name should be "Taino"

I've just checked the big 4 online English dictionaries: AHD, Collins, Encarta, and Merriam-Webster. All 4 include the spelling "Taino" and none includes the spelling "Taíno". The accented version is the correct Spanish spelling and could very well be the correct spelling in Taino orthography, but it seems it is not the correct spelling in English. The Wikipedia policy is to use the accepted English spelling for page titles.

The page for Yoruba language has recently made this correction. — Hippietrail 17:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Yep, you're right, especially since Taino is not a Spanish loanword, it's (presumably) an Arawkan word, equally a loanword in English as it is in Spanish.Guettarda

Perhaps the form "Taíno," that it with the diphthong disrupted should be used as a guide to pronunciation, otherwise the English form accent on the unbroken diphthong Taino sounds oddly comical to Spanish speakers. However, I did know a Taíno who went by the name of Tano, said derived from Utiliano (El Jigüe, 10/29/2005).

The title is Cacique and not kacique this name is from a native language the problem with tainos is, there is none. we have people pretending to be something which they are not, with all the respect that you guys deserved do you know what this group of people follow? Money and that’s all, the bigger they get the more money they get. they don’t even know their native dances, they practice the Buffalo’s dance, Bird’s dance, rain dance which in fact these dances have nothing to do with taino's culture they paint african people with feathers they also paint picture of people practicing Santeria as part of our Native culture when we know that this is an African religion which was introduce by the slaves into the Caribbean. I read that barbacoa is a native taino language if that is true so is chequealo,(revisalo) in other words is just Spanglish and no Native language. For many years the Puertorican Island was proud to show the world that they were no afraid to be a multicultural group they were very unique, but when culture came knocking to their door they grabbed whatever was at their reach. you are going to read people whom all of the sudden they have taino’s roots but they don’t know from where or how. they always are going to say Oh I know I am a taino descendent if you ask the how he know more likely will say that someone in his/her family told them and the funnies thing is that by wearing a feather they think that will make them Native, to me that show how ignorant a person can be that they have to clinch themselves to an ornament to pretend to be something just for money just remember that 20 years ago there was no people wearing feather now see them they even paint their faces I guess that 10 % of Siberian dna is stronger than 90% of European or African DNA Yusulpayki Yopi Cawa

Fairy stories

One of the many things that we have to preserve is the freedom of speaking our mind, if we are going to debate why we have to say “oh please don’t say anything that may offend me” if you get mad you don’t smile and keep talking? You usually tell the person how you feel in the way you feel is the right way Imaynatan munanki chaynallatataq munasunki Just as you love others, they will love you. Yusulpayki Yopi Cawa

This article is such a mess, I don't even know where to being. It's full of of myths and legends stated as facts... Guettarda 16:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Such as? Zanturaeon 00:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Rumors of Atlantean civilizations during ice ages in Cuba, although supported by logical interpretations of Ancient Greek and Egyptian records 1 and much touted by the present government [2], are not supported by archeological evidence. A case can be made for an exploratory visit by a Chinese fleet in 1441 3. What we do know for sure, from the archeological record and mitochondrial DNA studies is that indigenous pre-Taíno and the Taíno peoples discovered the Antilles many thousands of years ago, apparently exterminating major megafauna, including condors 4, giant owls 5 and eventually groundsloths 6.

While this is not necessarily inaccurate, the article should never start with fringe theories.

At the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492, there were five Taíno "kingdoms" or territories on Hispaniola, each led by a principal Cacique (chieftain), to whom tribute was paid. Another indigenous group called the Carib lived in the islands. This group is said to be another Arawakan related people originally from South America. The Tainos and the Carib would sometimes battle each other.

This is an unsourced "just-so-story". Not encyclopaedia quality. There page is full of links to Amamzon (sic), which are not appropriate. A lot of the information in here appears to be unfiltered reports of early Spanish explorers, which is not taken at face value by scholars. In addition, a new article has basically been appended to the top of the article. Guettarda 03:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Guettarda, completely agree that this article is in a deplorable state. The fringe Atlantean bit was also inserted into History of Cuba, I've excised it there and I think the same can safely enough be done here- it adds nothing-, and if every supposed location for Atlantis were to be admitted, there would hardly be a geographical article without such a reference. The whole thing is in such a parlous state that it would almost be easier to start from scratch.--cjllw | TALK 04:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Oyea tau:

The archeological record is incomplete we will learn much more eventually. However, I find it amusing that "historians" not cited discussing a matter at least 500 years past second guess the actual witnesses of the events described. Julian Granberry and Gary Vescelius in their recent 2004 book Languages of the Pre-Columbian Antilles make far better comments than I on this absurd notion.

As to the use of Amazon.com links to these books, some here apparently do not yet know that often these sites contain at least the index and sometimes considerable parts of the text. However, these may believe that only the web not books hold the future.

As to the references to Atlanta (as in the Atlantic Ocean) they are usually derived from Plato (using Egyptian sources), who specifies "beyond the pillars of Hercules" that is west of Gibraltar. Once Troy was such a "myth." When I was young the presence of Vikings in the Americas was almost entirely based upon the Edas and also considered the myth. Of course in those days we all had 48 chromosomes, ulcers were caused by mere stress, genetic material was histones (DNA was considered "stupid," and the Mayan Languages were almost a complete enigma.

Every decade is seems a new civilization is discovered in the Americas. perhaps there are ruins of the Roman settlement in the Canary Island. So what we need to do in reference to such unknowns such as Atlanta. and the arrival of the Chinese, Saint Brendan, the African expediditions, the Basque Cod Fishermen etc in the Americas, is to keep an open mind and wait and see.

A wise old scientist once told me it is not what you know that holds you back, but what you think you know and ain't so that does. The case for Atlanta in the Caribbean is quite strong, and we ought to know it, but that will have to await until archeologists find something substancial.

There is little certain in life but death....and entries here would be wise to keep this in mind.

p.s. watch those excisions you may cut yourself

Taino Ti

(El Jigüe, 10/7/2005)

Be that as it may, but we are constrained by Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Also have a look at the Manual of Style. We shouldn't link to commercial sites that are selling books - you need to reference the books properly, include their ISBNs, and let people find them for themselves. Guettarda 20:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

G: The cazigazgos of Cuba are well known here is a slightly different list which omits Baracoa because it is not in the Cauto plain, but it is from a Cuba government source which you are sure to believe. The original Author is Velázquez:

"Velázquez en relación con la geografía del Cauto menciona la existencia de los cacicazgos de Mayyé, Maniabón, Cueyba, Bayamo, Guacanayabo y Macaca," [[2]]

On the other hand the "horrible Miami mafia" like me sometimes prefer:

"Maniabón, Cueiba, Bayamo, Macaca, Bayatiquirí, Maisí, and Baracoa." [[3]]

xe xe but I think you do not speak or read Spanish let alone Taíno. So as lawyers say if you have the law on your side, bang on the law; if you have the right on your side, bang on the right; and if you have nothing, like you have, bang on the table. Well your fist must be hurting by now se xe han han (El Jigüe, 10/7/2005)

The Spanish is not a problem, but you have not supplied a credible source. Newspapers print myths all the time. The simple fact is that most conquistador accounts cannot be taken as facts. They bear some resemblance to the truth, but no scholar takes them at face value. They are myths - they contain a grain of truth, sometimes a large one, but that's all. As for "Taino" - the existing lexicon is far too small and fragmentary for anyone to read the language. There isn't even consensus about the meaning of the word itself (it was almost certainly not their name for temselves (sic). Regardless, Wikipedia needs to limit itself to established factual claims. The reports of the conquistadors can be reported as such - so "V. said X" not "X is the case" (not without independent verification). Rather than trying to argue with me, you should read the links I provided above. In addition, need to read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Guettarda 23:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

G: If you are going throw out first hand reports and scholarly studies of these accounts what is left. As to the links you have provided I find none that relate to Taíno. As to the Taíno reconstruction of the language (by careful comparisons with related Arawak languages) that will take time. For an over-view of the Arawak culture I suggest (ISBN 0-252-02758-2). (El Jigüe, 10/8/2005)

One of the problems is that the Taino culture was spread across a great many islands Puerto Rico (Boriquen), Hispaniola (Haiti and Quiskaya), Jamaica (the transliteration is little changed) and Cuba (generic Cubanacan). As a result today we have to deal with political separations, as well as the growing body of ethnic, biochemical, archeological evidences, as well as diverse interpretations. However, while this in itself is evidence of vigor and interest, it also makes for some disorder in presentation. For instance the Taino irrigation systems were well developed in Boriquen, while so far as I know non were used and apparently not required in Cubanacan. The climate seems to have varied since the time of the Conquest.....(e.g., Barreiro, 2005). Then there is the question of settling general definition of state of development. I prefer copper age since throughout the Caribbean basin the use and recognition of different metals was wide spread , and early European arrivals found that the different indigenous populations had different sets of words of gold, silver, copper alloys (Hakluyt, 1907)

Barreiro, José 2005 In Cuba the cry was for water. Indian Country Today part one October 13, part two October 20, 2005. (accessed October 25, 2005) http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411742 http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411782

Hayklut, Richard (1907, reprinted 1929) The interpretation of cereine (stet) words of the language of Trinidad annexed to the voyage of sir Robert Duddeley. J.M. Dent & Sons London, E.P. Dutton, New York Vol. 7 p. 171.

Fact tags

I have added several {{fact}} tags to this article because it has many unsourced statements. Furthermore these statements which are, at best, minority views are presented as concerte, proven facts.

If sources are not provided for these statements I wil remove them. Also, I will be adding information using Irving Rouse's books. Joelito (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Language

Why there is no info about their language here? The answer for the nonexistent of the taino’s language is very simple, there was no survivors so how you are going to speak a language when there is no one to talk to? And this is the reason why tainos don’t have a language, now you have to see how the new so call tainos are recruiting people, is very simple the only thing you have to say is “one of my parents is African decedent and the other one I believe was born in Puerto Rico” I witnessed it in many different occasions obviously is done with no remorse or shame .

I would agree that a language section is definitely worth including. Indeed, I believe it should be introduced early in the article since the historical linguistic evidence is among the strongest in terms of the South American connections of the indigenous Caribbean peoples. Some indigenous language data from the Greater Antilles does exist, despite the disappearance of the language early in the Spanish colonization. This data is mostly lexical and takes two forms: words and a few short phrases appearing in early colonial texts and words borrowed into Spanish.Mwswanton 05:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Taino Cothing

The Pre-Columbian Taino people of Puerto Rico in the 15th century learned from the Spanirds how to make shirts and pants made out of cotton cloth. The style that the Jatibonicu Taino use today is in the traditional campesino Jibaro mountain flavor of Puerto Rico. No we do not dress like North American Indians as we dress like Taino people of today and we are not Pre-Columbian Indians. And some modern day Taino people like dressing in the Pre-Columbian style.

One of the many lies that has been pushed to the Natives or aborigine of the Americans is the creation of fakes tribes, tribes that the only purpose in life is to make money out of our culture. one of the most recent one, is the tribe of tainos which it was created by the government with the only purpose to destroy our culture this tribe or Nation was decimated by the Europeans living zero survivors and I mean zero which it means there was no chance for Mestizaje now they found dna which link them to siberia's people, but lets be honest thats siberia and in no way means that they automatically taino remember this Island was one of the most multiracial groups and they only found 10% of a Siberia DNA and no Native America DNA is believe that our ancestor came from Siberia,but its just a theory for many centuries we have been told that the south is different from the north and the Center doesn't exist. many tribes in United States are integrated by African,Asians,Caucasian and a very small percent of Native Americans and this is because the government pushed them to the reservation making the Indians accept the nonIndians or suffer the consequence Yusulpayki Yopi Cawa≥

Hey Mr. Know It All, your full of bat guano! You do not know what the heck your talking about. I have a 16 generation family tree, a DNA study to show actual proof as to my Taino Indian ancestry from Puerto Rico. As to a Taino reservation, the Reservation is called Boriken (Puerto Rico). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Japerez (talk • contribs).

Dogs

"fish and turtles were stored in weirs, and hutias and dogs were stored in corrals" - I'm trying to find information on these dogs, but to no avail (this far). While the Native American dogs were pretty ordinary dogs (as dogs were domesticated before significant human settlemewnt of the Americas, and brought there by the native colonists), it's still an interesting subject as the Taíno dogs were quite distinct (didn't bark etc). Dysmorodrepanis 11:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hurricane

There seems to be dispute about whether forms of this word passed from Taino to Mayan or vice versa in precolonial America. What seems hard to dispute is that it existed in both language groups pre-conquest. Anybody who has a good citation which clarifies this status (even one which just restates my OR above) would be welcome to contribute it here, at Mayan Languages, at Huracan, and at Hurricane (disambiguation). 216.106.172.40 (talk) 01:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)