Talk:T-Mobile Arena

Requested move 14 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 20:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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MGM - AEG Arena → Las Vegas Arena – This under-construction arena seems to now have an official name, so there is no reason to continue using a descriptive title (I believe the current name was invented by Wikipedia). The name Las Vegas Arena is used on the official site: [1] [2], in recent news sources: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7], and in official MGM documents: [8]. If there is any confusion about other arenas in Las Vegas, that can be handled with a hatnote. --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:58, 22 January 2015 (UTC) Toohool (talk) 07:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Also note there is a related RfD for New Las Vegas Arena. As for the current state of Las Vegas Arena, it currently redirects to a section of Caesars Entertainment Corporation about an arena project that involved the Las Vegas Arena Foundation, but was never, as far as I can find, called simply the "Las Vegas Arena". That aborted project has its own article at New Las Vegas Arena. Toohool (talk) 07:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as not the common name and probably premature. The last RJ article calls this the MGM-AEG arena albeit using new Las Vegas Arena in the image caption. MGM-AEG arena is clearly the common name. I suspect that the real name for this will only be identified when it is announced closer to the opening, before that we can guess. Yes it is refereed to as the new Las Vegas Arena in several places, but that appears to be more of generic labeling as a new arena in Las Vegas as opposed to a real name.

Where's your evidence that this premature or that "MGM-AEG arena" is the common name? I've cited several pieces of evidence that "Las Vegas Arena" is the name. You've cited one article, which seems to support my argument by using the name "Las Vegas Arena" in the photo captions. It also uses a few other descriptive phrases for the arena: "The AEG-MGM arena", "the $375 million arena being built by MGM Resorts and Anschultz Entertainment", and "the MGM-AEG arena". It's important to note in each case whether "arena" is capitalized. "The new Las Vegas arena" would be a generic labeling, as you suggest, but "the new Las Vegas Arena" is clearly using "Las Vegas Arena" as a name. Toohool (talk) 20:04, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

My point is that there is no announced formal name so why move it at all? How many references do you want for the current name? I'm sure you are well aware that there are hundreds. What is wrong with waiting for a formal announcement to get it right? Vegaswikian (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

You are assuming that there will someday be a formal announcement of the name, and I don't see any evidence for that assumption. As for the current name of MGM - AEG Arena (with the capital A implying that it's a proper name), I think you'd be hard-pressed to find one good source that supports it. Toohool (talk) 07:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I wound not be opposed at this point of moving to MGM - AEG arena. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll add that today's article only uses the name MGM-AEG arena as season ticket sales start in case we get a team. If the proponents use that name, one would assume it came from somewhere. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notable events section

See how Moda Center, a good article, handles this. The table will soon become unwieldy and trivial; Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information, and I object to the listing of every single individual event held at this venue. ViperSnake151  Talk  16:31, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

So you think that, like most arena articles, we should have a random assortment of whichever events someone felt like adding, with no clear criteria for inclusion? Toohool (talk) 17:19, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

There can be a criteria for inclusion: covered by multiple reliable sources, significant event in the history of the venue, significant one-off sporting event or concert, significant event being held annually multiple times. ViperSnake151  Talk  18:24, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Every event at the arena to date has been covered by multiple reliable sources. I think that's a reasonable criteria, but when you've got a list inclusion criteria that's very close to making it a complete list, you might as well just make it a complete list (otherwise it will look to readers like it has holes). I don't think "significant" is a very useful criteria, as any event with 10,000+ attendees is going to seem significant from some angle or to some constituency. Toohool (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

An event must receive significant or in-depth coverage to be notable. That's about articles, but it can apply to these notable events, too. If the source says an event promoted by someone, featuring so-and-so, was attended by a number of people who paid an amount of money on a predetermined date, that's just routine coverage, only suitable for newspapers and the like. If there's nothing fit to print in the notes column, leave it out. If it has its own article, leave it in. Everything else, discuss. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:10, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Tour stops for shows that do the same thing the same way across the whole tour are particularly useless here. I'm 100% behind trimming all of those. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:30, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:DEPTH is the standard for notability of articles, it's clearly inappropriate for deciding what details to include in an article. Your proposed standard would seem to require endless AFD-style discussions about every event, and result in a list that just seems to have arbitrary holes. And by the way, your summary deletion of most of the list removed even events that got plenty of in-depth coverage, such as the Killers, George Strait, and Garth Brooks concerts. Toohool (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Nothing arbitrary about it. I deleted the routine stuff, left the events that only happen once, or at least only annually. If there's something setting these George Strait concerts or Lakers games apart from the million or so at other arenas, at least note it in the notes column. Clicking through the links for the three you mentioned, I don't see it.

Speaking of columns, the "Event" one is a bit screwed, just for listing bands and sports teams instead of events. If you insist on keeping these routine shows, calling it "Event/Performers" would make more sense.

And you undid a lot of other stuff in this massive reversion. Most of International Fight Week is at the MGM Grand, WWE isn't a sport and winners of contests and headlining acts are noteworthy. Do you disagree with any of this, or was it just collateral damage? InedibleHulk (talk) 21:32, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed on the column header and WWE not being a sport. International Fight Week had several events at T-Mobile through the week, as listed in one of the cited articles. I don't think Britney Spears should be called out for the Billboard Awards, as there were a bunch of other performers of similar stature. I don't think the winners of pageants or sporting events need to be called out--what's relevant to this article is the type and caliber of events that are being held, not the "results" of the events. The cites are there to verify the listed information, not to prove some threshold of notability. As to George Strait, for example: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] Toohool (talk) 20:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Requesting to remove the events list. I agree with toohoo, it'll eventually get too long. Thatwweguy 619 (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree as well, it shouldn't be a schedule of all events at the arena, I think the Events section should only be for special events such as the first (inaugural) home game of the Vegas Golden Knights. -NetWitz- 07:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

Could it not be made a collapsed table at least? 194.28.127.52 (talk) 22:41, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I just made the events table collapsible -NetWitz- 23:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

Since the consensus is apparently not to include a full list (other than perhaps in a collapsed form, which is against the MOS), I split it out to a separate article, List of events at T-Mobile Arena. Toohool (talk) 23:15, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Please note that the list has been nominated for deletion. Toohool (talk) 16:49, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Location

Per T-Mobile arena their location is Las Vegas not unincorporated Paradise. Whether it's the arena itself or Ticketmaster, or Trip Adivisor, or Bank of America, or the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce, it's in Las Vegas. I'll take this to an RfC if need be. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:25, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Here is a map of the town limits of Paradise. Here is a map of the city limits of Las Vegas. You can see for yourself which one contains T-Mobile Arena. Toohool (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

It is not a city, it is an unincorporated town that per the State of Nevada is more advisory in nature. T-Mobile Arena is in the city of Las Vegas as is Mccarran airport. I can find so many sources that give the address as Las Vegas, and I can't find even one that says the unincorporated town of Paradise, unless it's blogs or wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

The mailing address is Las Vegas, as set by the USPS. Wikipedia doesn't provide mailing addresses, since it's not a directory. The arena and the airport are not in Las Vegas, as you can see from the map. We don't use sources that are provably incorrect. Toohool (talk) 19:58, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

The source you give is GOOGLE, not some official organization like the USPS. Google is incorrect if you are using it for the official location of the MGM Grand Hotel, New York Casino, or T-Mobile arena. I think this needs administrators and other editors to take a look through an RfC or it needs to be re-written to show it is in the city of Las Vegas and the unincorporated advisory community of Paradise. The infobox should absolutely say Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

See this map from Clark County if you don't believe that Google is showing the correct city and town limits. Toohool (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

That is a map of commission districts or townships. There can be dozens of townships and commission districts in each city, but we don't really use that as a specific location in wikipedia. And if we do anything we go by the venue's own sourced address, which in this case is Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Look at the color key on the right. It's a map of all the cities and towns in the Las Vegas area. Toohool (talk) 22:19, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I also note that the new massive entertainment/comfort/dining complex called "The Park" is going up right next door. It's official contact address is 3784 S. Las Vegas Blvd., Las Vegas, Nevada, 89109. Certainly it can be mentioned that these areas are in the unincorporated Paradise district, but they are in the city of Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Everywhere in Paradise uses "Las Vegas, NV" as its mailing address, because that is what the USPS has decided that's what you need to write if you're sending a letter to Paradise. But the USPS does not set the city limits, and Paradise is not inside the Las Vegas city limits. Toohool (talk) 22:34, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

May I suggest putting it as Paradise, Las Vegas, Nevada? -NetWitz- 22:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

That would be incorrect, since Paradise is not part of Las Vegas. Toohool (talk) 22:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh ok, even though the arena is located on the Las Vegas Strip? -NetWitz- 22:19, 7 September 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

Per this editor, The Strip is not in Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

That's correct. You can read more about that fact at Las Vegas Strip. Also, the lede mentions the Las Vegas Strip before it mentions Paradise exactly for this reason, to minimize confusion to readers who may not be aware that the Strip is not in Las Vegas. Toohool (talk) 22:34, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Again, that's a wiki article and no real help. No one who visits the Bellagio is going to give its address as 3600 S. Las Vegas blvd., unincorporated Paradise, Winchester, and Enterprise townships, Nevada, 89109. A postcard may not make it. They are going to look at what it officially says on the Bellagio website, which is Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:49, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah ok thank you @Toohool!!! -NetWitz- 22:41, 7 September 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

There is also the Las Vegas Police Dept south of Mandalay Bay Hotel at 4860 S Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV 89119. And south of that we have the Clark County Fire Station #11, at 5150 S Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV 89119. This is what the article should tell us with specific townships being mentioned as needed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Succession Boxes

The Vegas Golden Knights should be listed in the succession boxes because T-Mobile Arena is the current home arena of the Vegas Golden Knights. Also, other Venues listed things in succession boxes with no before or after in it, such as Cashman Field. -NetWitz- 07:27, 11 October 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

I am seconding the removal. Having a succession box with no links (before or after) is pointless. If other venues have it, then I disagree with its use there as well. Yosemiter (talk) 19:02, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Well I guess consensus is no succession box. Over and out. -NetWitz- 20:03, 11 October 2017 (UTC)NetWitz

RFC: Las Vegas or Paradise, Nevada

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I find no consensus to change the location of the T-Mobile Arena from Paradise, Nevada to Las Vegas, Nevada. This was a difficult call to make due to the number of half arguments made in comparison to the ones that argued for a position. However, I find the arguments of the Las Vegas proponents to be insubstantial and lacking in sources to fully argue their points. Therefore, the status quo remains until a time when consensus can be reached. I advise future RfC creators and supporters of changing this to flesh out their arguments and present them with sources that fully support their arguments. (non-admin closure) Nihlus 09:37, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Should the location of T-Mobile Area, and by extrapolation the new NHL hockey team (Vegas Golden Knights), say "Las Vegas, Nevada" instead of "Paradise, Nevada?" Extended for thirty days by Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC), originally started by Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Survey

Support or Oppose?

• Support, should be Las Vegas" (Invited by the bot) IMO many considerations point to this:

1. Mailing address is Las Vegas. This is a widely accepted meaning for location, particularly when the area is unincorporated
2. When an area is unincorporated, the mailing address city is considered the location for many legal purposes.
3. Townships are an alternative way of dividing up the map and are generally not considered entities (the way that cities and towns are) for the main brief description of a location.
4. There is much precedence there for doing so. For example for saying that the Las Vegas strip is in Las Vegas.
5. Preponderance of sources (the ones that aren't mirrors of the current Wikipedia article) seem to say Las Vegas.

North8000 (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@North8000: Please note that Paradise is not a township, it is an unincorporated town, a type of entity that is unique to Nevada. Toohool (talk) 18:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Toohool: Townships were discussed much below and I mistakenly assumed that that was the case. That makes my #3 point above not relevant to the question. North8000 (talk) 19:01, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I misspoke that same thing a couple times in the discussion. The gov't also calls it an unincorporated advisory community. The thing is the word "town" also seems to mean something different in Nevada than in any other state. Many here will think of the tv place of Mayberry when they think of a small town. But in Nevada, an unincorporated town or community doesn't have the town sheriff or mayor. They only have advisors. Everything is done for the community under the auspices of Clark County. It's like they exist but they don't exist... all for tax purposes. The closest thing in most states would probably be an unicorporated area or possibly a census designated place. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Where on earth has anyone besides you called it an "unincorporated advisory community"? And could you please try to get your facts straight? Unincorporated towns in Nevada vary in how much power they are given by the county commissioners, but they can potentially do most of the things that incorporated municipalities do, such as passing ordinances, managing a budget, creating a police and fire department, maintaining streets and parks, etc. The main defining difference is just that everything the town does is subject to the authority of the county commission. Toohool (talk) 19:36, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I struck through advisory. They have no one in official authority. Per Nevada they usually have no one elected. Since they answer to a higher authority in everything they do, they do not have authority in those things if they have a boss who makes the final decision for them. It is totally up to the county if they want to delegate the management of local services and expenditures to the town advisory board. Even when they have meetings they list it as taking place in Las Vegas. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. This took a bit of thought, but after reading the discussion below and looking at a considerable number of wikipedia pages regarding hotels on the Las Vegas Strip, I believe the page should continue to list the location as "Paradise, Nevada". The arena is in fact in Paradise and not the city of Las Vegas. Even the Las Vegas Strip article says: "located immediately south of the Las Vegas city limits in the unincorporated towns of Paradise and Winchester". The Las Vegas article itself even says: "the Las Vegas Strip, which is actually located within the unincorporated communities of Paradise, Winchester, and Enterprise". From what I see the majority of the Hotel wikipedia pages list "Paradise, Nevada" as the location, including Caesars Palace which has GA status. This appears to be a precedent and there's no reason to go against this. By extension as this arena is the home arena of the Golden Nights, their location should also be listed as Paradise. As Paradise is inside the Las Vegas Valley, "Vegas Golden Nights" still makes sense as a team name even though they're not based in the city itself. - Vanstrat ⁽⁽🗼⁾⁾ 14:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Discussion thread

It seems quite strange to me that pretty much every source you can find on the T-Mobile Arena and Vegas Golden Knights gives their address as Las Vegas, Nevada. As discussed above, Paradise is not a city, it is an unincorporated township that per the State of Nevada is more advisory in nature. T-Mobile Arena is in the city of Las Vegas as is Mccarran airport per their own websites. I can find so many sources that give the address as Las Vegas, and I can't find even one that says the unincorporated town of Paradise, unless it's blogs or this wikipedia. It's one thing to mention in prose that T-Mobile Arena is technically in the unincorporated township of Paradise, but the infobox and standard usage is Las Vegas. I realize that Google Maps shows that the Vegas Strip and buildings are not in Las Vegas proper, but if all we go by is google maps, that would be original research and not allowed. All the surrounding infrastructures consider themselves in Las Vegas too.

• T-Mobile Arena - 3780 Las Vegas Blvd South, Las Vegas, NV 89158
• Vegas Golden Knights Armory Store - South Las Vegas Blvd. Las Vegas, NV 89158
• Las Vegas Police Dept - south of Mandalay Bay Hotel at 4860 S Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV 89119.
• Clark County Fire Station #11 - at 5150 S Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV 89119.
• McCarren International Airport - 5757 Wayne Newton Boulevard, Las Vegas, Nevada 89119
• Johnny Rockets burgers - In the Excaliber Casino 3850 S Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV 89109
• The Park - going up right next door to T-Mobile Arena. 3784 S. Las Vegas Blvd., Las Vegas, Nevada, 89109.

This is what the article and infobox should tell us with specific unincorporated townships being mentioned only as needed in prose. I think Las Vegas is best but the much longer Las Vegas Metropolitan Area could also work. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I do not personally have any opinion on the outcome of this discussion as either is probably fine. However, postal addresses often mean very little to a location especially when dealing with towns/suburbs/boroughs, etc. (My home address can in fact be labeled on my mail with one of three different locations as the "town", but as long as one of them is used with the correct ZIP then it will reach me just fine.) Paradise is a location with a function and while the mailing address is LV, Paradise still exist a census-designated legal entity. The opposite arguments have been made with using Brooklyn as a city because they use Brooklyn as a mailing address even though it is officially part of New York City (and not just part of the Metro). Yosemiter (talk) 23:10, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support: We certainly run into this every now and then in hockey-related articles: the Hershey Bears, for instance, where likewise Hershey, Pennsylvania, is a "census-designated place" that doesn't have any actual corporate existence. Honestly, I think this is a WP:COMMONNAME issue. Ravenswing 00:03, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: Anyone can look at a map and see that the arena is in Paradise and not in Las Vegas. That is not original research, it's more like a routine calculation. Yes, we could say that the arena is in the Las Vegas metropolitan area, and that would be accurate, but it would convey less information than saying that it's in Paradise. Why omit this straightforward and indisputable fact? Are we afraid that readers will go into anaphylactic shock if they read something unexpected? No, they'll click on the link and become more informed. That's what an encyclopedia is for.

  Also, I object to including the location of the Golden Knights in this RfC "by extrapolation". It may be appropriate to list Las Vegas as the team's city, because a team is a more abstract concept than a building. They can represent the city while being physically located outside of it. Also, keep in mind that whatever arguments apply to this article also apply to hundreds of other articles under the categories for Paradise, Winchester, Enterprise, Sunrise Manor, Spring Valley, and Whitney (all the towns that have Las Vegas mailing addresses). Toohool (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Toohool: The reason VGK is involved is that the hockey project typically uses arena location for its city parameter in both the league page and team infobox. Yosemiter (talk) 03:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

That may be so, but people should not be deciding what this article will say based on what they want the team article to say. Toohool (talk) 03:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

It affects those articles, so it is at least courtesy to notify the relevant subjects that would be affected by the outcome. Very few involved in the project are so self-serving that they would try to dictate an RfC for an arena location based on "what they want a team article to say", just what might be the best guidelines to follow for said arena location. Ravenswing already cited COMMONNAME as one and I and Ravenswing pointed out addresses are possibly unreliable for the "city" parameter. Yosemiter (talk) 03:48, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I think you're reading something accusatory into my comments that was not my intent. I'm not impugning anyone's motives or objecting to Fyunck notifying the VGK talk page. I just object to his implication that we have to reach the same answer for both articles. There are different arguments that apply to the two different articles. Toohool (talk) 04:21, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

For all I know, the entire hockey project wants Paradise, Nevada. I really have no idea. What I do know is we need verification in our sources and the only sources I've seen for Paradise are google maps and blogs. I have listed the location's own websites... websites that direct people to their business. Sure you can put unincorporated towns and townships on return addresses and as long as you have the correct zip code it will probably get there. But you'd think that at least some of the businesses would then use those unincorporated townships as their address. I haven't seen ANY. Even the Chamber of Commerce uses Las Vegas when directing people near the arena. Local banks use Las Vegas. Does anyone use Paradise other than Wikipedia when directing people to any location on the Strip or T-Mobile arena? I'm not saying ban the term Paradise, Nevada from the article... It should be mentioned somewhere that technically the arena is not in the city limits. But in the infobox or lead it should not say Paradise. It should say Las Vegas or even Las Vegas Metropolitan Area. or something like that. And the same situation is happening at the Vegas Knights hockey article. The arena and NHL team are linked whether we like it or not, and since this could affect that article that lists Paradise as the city (as opposed to location) I felt they should be informed and it should be mentioned here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

We don't have to reach the same verdict on both. People can qualify their answers to say the arena is in Las Vegas, but the NHL hockey team plays in Paradise. They just seemed linked to me and I didn't think it would warrant going through this twice. Maybe I'm all wet on this issue, but the more I thought about this the more it just didn't seem right to tell readers one thing while the arena tells them something else. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Comment We also have legal paperwork from the NV.gov site talking about boxing licenses at T-Mobile... again it's only Las Vegas. Same Las Vegas stuff with the NY Times. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Leaning oppose as it is a routine calculation to look at a map and see that it is in the census designated area known as Paradise. As with Yosemiter I am in the same situation where I can label my mail with three different things and the mail will get to me. Addresses are not totally reliable for indicating location. -DJSasso (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

  @Djsasso:I do agree with your point about mailing addresses not being the end-all for location. I can do the same with my own mailing address. But when the Venue itself in all advertising and correspondence uses it's location as Las Vegas, and when Nevada gov paperwork calls it Las Vegas, that's got to mean something. No one uses Paradise except for google and wikipedia. Other places in Paradise could certainly use Paradise as a contact address. Chaparral High School tells you they are in Las Vegas, not Paradise. The University of Nevada does the same thing. They could put Paradise in their address if they wanted to, but no one does. Not even these educational resources. It just seems to me that "Las Vegas" is preferred by all entities, even the government, and that our infobox and lead should show that same courtesy. Elsewhere in the article we can say that it is actually in the unincorporated suburb of Paradise. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

  And one other thing on mailing addresses. With a zip code you could put Paradise or Las Vegas, or maybe even Frederick, and the mail will get to you. But per the Las Vegas Sun quoting the Post Office, you can also put Las Vegas, NV with no zipcode and get the letter delivered. But if you put Paradise, NV with no zipcode they will not deliver the mail. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

• Qualified Support I think if Las Vegas comes up as the official mailing address rather than Paradise, it should be stated as Las Vegas. However, there's no reason that a footnote couldn't be put in there mentioning that geographically it's within Paradise, an unincorporated municipality in Clark County. South Nashua (talk) 14:44, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. This situation is similar to Barclays Center/New York Islanders situation. The Barclays Center's page says Brooklyn, New York, but the Islanders' page says New York City, New York. There have been many discussions about that and it is strange that people are OK with listing "Paradise, Nevada" at Golden Knights' and T-Mobile Arena's pages, but disagree with listing "Brooklyn, New York" or "New York City, New York" for both Barclays Center (currently Brooklyn, New York) and the Islanders (currently New York City, New York). I was always in favor of listing "Brooklyn, New York", but looks like some people just like to have double standards for the same issue. As for T-Mobile Arena and the Golden Knights – TV broadcasts, the Golden Knights and the NHL itself use Las Vegas, Nevada, and keeping it consistent would be better. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:58, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

• There is of course a major difference between the two, one is part of the city and the other is not. Paradise is not part of Las Vegas whereas Brooklyn is a part of New York. -DJSasso (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
  • But at the start of the Islanders' broadcasts they write "Brooklyn, NY" or "Brooklyn, New York". Do I need to say more? Furthermore, this is about "Paradise, Nevada" vs. "Las Vegas, Nevada", and this is not the place to discuss the Islanders' situation. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Uh you were the one who brought that one up. -DJSasso (talk) 17:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Comment - anther thing to consider. Paradise is in Las Vegas township. The Las Vegas valley has three legal townships... Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, and Henderson. These townships boundaries are different boundaries than the metropolitan areas, and they delineate the jurisdictions of the state courts. Perhaps this is also why all the businesses use Las Vegas as their address? The US and State governments seem to follow these township designations for business rather than the unincorporated towns. Encyclopedia Britannica tells us the University Of Nevada (in the middle of Paradise) is in Las Vegas, however, to be fair, the Census Bureau does recognize the unincorporated towns as proper population divisions. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Townships are judicial districts, they have nothing to do with mailing addresses. The businesses use Las Vegas addresses because those are the addresses the USPS has set. USPS could set your mailing address to be Nome, Alaska, if they wanted to. Toohool (talk) 02:14, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

But the businesses also use Las Vegas when they aren't giving their mailing address. They do not use Paradise. I was just saying that maybe it's because they are in the township of Las Vegas. I really don't know why they all use Las Vegas, all the time, but they do and so do all the sources. And sourcing is Wikipedia's backbone. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:58, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Mailing addresses have a big impact. Most people believe that they follow the city limits. And yes, all the sources say Las Vegas... except for the ones that actually show where Las Vegas and Paradise are. Yes, sourcing is Wikipedia's backbone, but, as Jimbo has said, "The truth trumps a source in some cases. We seek verifiability and truth." Toohool (talk) 03:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

But our mantra is verifiability, not truth. And we certainly go by sourcing and common-name. As in the previous discussion, this seemed very black and white to you, and why I brought it to an RFC (as I said I would). Maybe more eyes can come up with something or some compromise we haven't thought of. It could certainly be "Las Vegas metropolitan area" as a location, and the same could be said of the Vegas Golden Knights article. But right now these articles are Paradise, Paradise, Paradise, while the organizations, encyclopedias, and every other source say Vegas, Vegas, Vegas. This is not good for our readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

It's not "Paradise, Paradise, Paradise". The lede says the arena is "on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada". Vegas already comes before Paradise. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that once they understand what the facts are. Toohool (talk) 05:36, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

• Alternate suggestion - Summoned by bot. This made me think of the Dallas Cowboys, who play in Irving. How about: T-Mobile Arena is a multi-use indoor arena on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada, part of the Las Vegas metroplex.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Timtempleton (talk • contribs)
  • Timtempleton I think they are strictly discussing the location used in the infobox. I don't think anyone is discussing the lead statement as Las Vegas Strip is stated first and is at least implicit that it is part of the LV area. Also the DFW metroplex is different situation legally as all actually different cities as opposed to a city overseeing several unincorporated townships/communities. Yosemiter (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Then in that case I support using Las Vegas in the infobox. It's better known, and is effectively the same thing. It's like arguing over whether the Yankees are in The Bronx, NY versus NY, NY. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:46, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is more comparable to DFW than to the Bronx, because Paradise is not part of Las Vegas. The city of Las Vegas does not in any sense "oversee" Paradise. Toohool (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
    • That's not entirely true. Las Vegas police oversee the unincorporated town of paradise. And I believe so does the Vegas library system. They use the same trash collection. I'm not sure about the fire dept. Paradise also has no mayor, but it does have a voluntary advisory board. Otherwise most things are overseen and provided by the county. It is certainly not a city as it says in the Vegas Golden Knights infobox. I would guess that building codes and details of the building of T-Mobile had to go through Clark County, not the city of Las Vegas or the unincorporated town or Paradise. It would be far more accurate to say that T-Mobile is in Clark County than to say it's in the city of Paradise. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
      • You are right that's it not accurate to say that the arena is in the city of Paradise, since Paradise is not a city. Where in this article is Paradise referred to as a city? Nowhere. I would be fine with changing the city in the Vegas Golden Knights infobox to Las Vegas, but this isn't really the place to discuss that. (And for the record, the LVMPD and the library district are jointly overseen by the city and county, they're not city agencies.) Toohool (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
        • Yeah, this is the place to discuss that too since the arena and team are closely linked. And the city of Las Vegas has a lot of say of what happens to the police and libraries. Paradise has no say whatsoever on anything since all they have is volunteer advisory members. Clark county has all the power in the area. The arena and team say they are in Las Vegas and you cannot correspond with them unless you say Las Vegas. That should count a lot towards infoboxes and leads. The community of Paradise should be more the asterisk in the article. I wouldn't be surprised that if you google Paradise in a couple months that our conversation here gets more hits than anything else in the last year. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
          • Alternate suggestion - How about compromising with: Paradise (Las Vegas), Nevada? SportsFan007(talk) 17:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

            Compromising is always good. It's not ideal and it should probably be used throughout the article, but we could do this to unblock the logjam. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

          • It seems to me that "Paradise (Las Vegas)" suggests that either Paradise and Las Vegas are the same thing, or Paradise is part of Las Vegas - neither of which is accurate. This is a bit like saying "A tomato is a fruit (vegetable)." It only adds confusion without providing any enlightenment. Toohool (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

            So I guess that's a no on the Alternate suggestion? The "enlightenment" would come in the body or footnote of the article where it would clarify that it is only in the Las Vegas metropolitan area and is actually just outside the city limits in the unincorporated town of Paradise. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:00, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

What do you have in mind as a footnote or explanation? I wouldn't be terribly opposed to something like "Paradise, Nevada *" with a footnote about the area being commonly referred to as Las Vegas. But even that would be rather silly, as the implication is that we need this footnote on all of the 100+ articles about sites in Paradise and the other unincorporated towns. Toohool (talk) 21:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Toohool: You are the only one who thinks it should be "Paradise, Nevada", which means the consensus is against you. SportsFan007(talk) 21:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

Thank you but that is not an accurate statement if you read the entire thread. Toohool (talk) 21:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Toohool:ok, its you and DJsasso against 5 or 6 different people. SportsFan007(talk) 22:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

Also not entirely accurate. 3 explicitly support change to Las Vegas: Fyunck(click), Ravenswing, South Nashua. One explicitly opposes: Toohool. One stated leaning towards oppose: DJSasso. 4 commentators with no clear favor to one side or the other: myself (Yosemiter), Sabbatino, Timtempleton, and yourself (SportsFan007, although your most recent comment seems to lean support). 3/4 to 1/2 isn't exactly a large consensus and it might need another week. Have any of the Las Vegas or Nevada projects been pinged? Yosemiter (talk) 21:22, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up Yosemiter, also to be honest I’m pretty neutral about this. SportsFan007(talk) 21:37, 25 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

So am I, hence, I pinged those projects directly. Who knows if there any active participants there though. You were right though, that if this were to close right now, it would be to change to Las Vegas. There are some larger implications from this though. Every other building on the Strip could also be changed to LV if this passes. Yosemiter (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Two things. One, we don't know that if it closed right now it would be Vegas. Headcount means minimal. The closer is supposed to look at the best arguments and then decide, regardless of the show of hands. Two, yes I brought this here to change it to Las Vegas and I believe the places, organizations and gov'ts bring a lot of weight to bear on that outcome. But it would never have been brought here had editor Toohool been a bit open to change. I saw no flexibility at all in the last discussion and told him I would bring this to an RfC if need be so that other eyes could look at it. My big problem is linking all these places that aren't technically in the city of Las Vegas to the unincorporated advisory community of Paradise when the world, businesses and gov't link them to Las Vegas. If a compromise comes out of this, to the benefit of our readers, then that's a good thing also. That could be Las Vegas. That could be Las Vegas (Paradise). Our readers are our prime concern. Heck, we could make a list of a bunch of choices if the two we are mostly talking about aren't good enough. The infobox and opening paragraph could say:

• 1. Paradise, Nevada (as it does now)
• 2. Las Vegas, Nevada (with mention further down that it's actually in the unincorporated advisory community of Paradise, outside the city limits)
• 3. Las Vegas (Paradise), Nevada
• 4. Paradise (Las Vegas), Nevada
• 5. Las Vegas–Paradise, Nevada (as they do at this wikipedia article)
• 6. Las Vegas Valley, Nevada
• 7. Las Vegas Metropolitan Area, Nevada
• 8. Clark County, Nevada

There could be more I haven't thought of. My beef is leaving it at Paradise, Nevada and editor Toohool doesn't seem to be willing to look at compromising. So here we are, where do we go forward to try and get this unanimous, even if it's grudgingly so? Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Personally I think the compromise is already there. The lead sentence says "T-Mobile Arena is a multi-use indoor arena on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada" which includes both, and the infobox includes the actual in reality location. Really how it is now I think solves both sides needs. Las Vegas isn't being left out and Paradise isn't being left out. -DJSasso (talk) 13:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Well we disagree on this one then. But that's why I brought it here... to find out if I'm all wet or if others agree that my claims have merit. I wish more wiki-editors would come over and give their opinions. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Still waiting for a few more responses. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

There is a reason they have expiry on RfCs. It's so when the conversation dies out they just close. We don't just keep extending so we can get the outcome we want. Either way I think its pretty clear there is no consensus for your change. Vanstrat above sums it up pretty well all the Hotel articles for the strip, the strip article and the Las Vegas article all call out Paradise as being the location not Las Vegas. -DJSasso (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. I actually thought it was clearer it should change and that the argument-strength backs up the change. But before that happened I still thought it would be best to make doubly sure that's what we wanted. That's why I extended it. I had never extended an RfC before and another administrator gave me a helping hand on how to do it. I think it's a little bit on the bad-faith side for you, an administrator, to call me out otherwise, but that is your prerogative to do so. The way articles have it listed on Wikipedia I thought was the weakest argument yet and easily disregarded, since all those same places on the Strip actually give their real-life "sourced" locations as Las Vegas, Nevada. Would you like me to list every location on The Strip and link it to any website and show their address preference as Las Vegas? I thought that would be tedious but I am always open to compromise. I did add the geography project to the time-extension, thinking they may have some insight we hadn't thought of. We weren't in any hurry so I thought a few more eyes might help us out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

But here is the difference, we can also find many sources that indicate these things are in Paradise, pretty much any atlas or the many government documents that would exist stating location, many of which are more reliable than the "marketing" that a given building may use for tourist sake. We are an encyclopedia, our job is to give out accurate information. I have no problem pointing out that something is considered in Las Vegas (aka on the Las Vegas Strip) as a secondary indication of location, but the primary location of something has to be accurate and what is reality. -DJSasso (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually no you can't. Most Atlases don't go that small. I have listed gov't documents that say Las Vegas. Most maps that you find of the area are also "marketing" items that have no legal authority at all. With people, we list them as they want to be known and in pretty much every way these places have shown they want to be known as Las Vegas. There are compromises listed that could work, but only saying Paradise is not the way to go imho. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

In regards to only saying Paradise, you do mean the infobox location? Because almost all locations on the Strip already have some sort of statement in the lead declaring that it is in the Las Vegas area, but not technically in LV the city. In terms of the infobox, brevity is typically preferred and that rules out most of the suggestions other than Paradise, NV; Las Vegas, NV; and possibly Las Vegas Valley, NV (if the box specifies location and not city). Also "city" in infoboxes does not necessarily mean it has to be an incorporated city, there are lots of large locations that are technically something else (communities, townships, boroughs, etc.) that also use that parameter. Yosemiter (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I haven't looked at all the other articles so I can only take your word that almost every one of them say "Las Vegas"/"Las Vegas metropolitan area"/"Las Vegas Valley" and then also say "Paradise". This was specifically about this article and the Las Vegas Knights article. In prose the Vegas Knights article says it is based in the Las Vegas metropolitan area. That's fine. The infobox makes it look to our readers as if its location is in the city of Paradise Nevada when all documentation and the arena itself says it is in Las Vegas, NV. That needs to be corrected to something better for our readers. It is glaring and it is what brought me to this situation. This article at T-Mobile Arena, in prose, should probably say something like "T-Mobile Arena is a multi-use indoor arena on the Las Vegas Strip in Las Vegas metropolitan area of Nevada." The infobox gives an address and location of "3780 South Las Vegas Boulevard - Location: Paradise, Nevada". Readers look at that as a full address and that would be 100% incorrect. No mail delivery would happen. T-Mobile themselves say they are in Las Vegas. It doesn't matter whether they are technically outside the city limits under the auspices of Clark County. That detail can be more specifically explained in the article prose. All the sourcing tells us to use Las Vegas. Compromises can certainly be found, but simply Paradise, NV is not one of them. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Again, I do not care what the infobox says in the end as I feel both are correct. But your argument is flawed. I tend to give readers the benefit of the doubt that when they read in the lead paragraph that the site is on the Las Vegas Strip, they understand that it also implies it is in the Las Vegas Metro; saying "Las Vegas Strip in the Las Vegas Metro" sounds very odd. Most of the locations stated in the lead say something to the extent of "on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada" clearly implying that this article refers to somewhere in Las Vegas, first and foremost (as opposed to many other articles that say it the other way around). And in reference to you mail comment, wikipedia is not an address or phone book, so that is not a solid case. Not mention, as I stated previously, location addresses don't matter that much even to the USPS. As long as the ZIP and street address is good, it will probably get to its destination just fine if one were to use Paradise instead of Las Vegas. And to be clear, I don't disagree with your common name argument. Yosemiter (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

The strip is more a road. For all people know it could be 10 miles down that road in Timbuktu and not in Las Vegas, NV. I also understand we are not an address book. Then again every single bit of information the place puts out says T-Mobile in Las Vegas. Usually with no address at all. That speaks volumes to our readers, especially in the infobox. We use the plethora of sources at our disposal and we also use the common place-name. Las Vegas should usually be used when we write about T-Mobile arena with the town of Paradise left further down in a more thorough description. Las Vegas Strip is not nearly good enough. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly disagree that the Strip "not good enough". I am willing to bet that 9 times out of 10, if your were to ask a non-LV resident "What do you think represents Las Vegas?", they would answer with something on the Strip. It is clearly more than just a road, it is a district, and likely the most famous area in the Las Vegas Metro. (S. Las Vegas Blvd is a road, and yes I know it continues all the way to at least the Gold Strike). Your entire argument has been that everything on the Strip should called "Las Vegas" in their infobox because that is the common name and the mailing address. That is perfectly fine and valid as an argument, so please put the stick down. Yosemiter (talk) 03:03, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't mind disagreement. Heck, it's wikipedia. I'm simply answering the queries coming my way. So we disagree on Las Vegas Strip being good enough for the location... that's not a big deal. As for everything on the Strip being called Las Vegas... I actually can't speak for that. For all I know there are some places that use Paradise in all their correspondence and advertising. If that can be sourced I'm perfectly fine with that. It's when the entities themselves always use Las Vegas, whether it's McCarren airport, local High Schools, or T-Mobile arena... whatever... that's when I look at an infobox and say whoa, something's not right. And then I read the prose on that place and see more potential problems. That's what I'm talking about here. I am always open to tweaks instead of making it all Las Vegas.. I've been clear about that throughout. But I also feel that my evidence will weigh heavier with anyone who closes this. The only thing against seems to be google maps. I respect your opinion and those of administrator Djsasso, but I laid out why changes need to be made. You mention a "stick" but I haven't exactly been shown any "carrot." Instead I was called out for extending this. I'm doing the best I can in responding, and I apologize if I'm not being clear enough. I have our readers in mind (whether they are from Maine or Mexico), and whatever the outcome I'll move on to other Wikipedia items with no hard feelings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

No one has said just say Paradise, NV on its own, the article already clearly says in the lead that it is in the Las Vegas area. People look to the infoboxes for accurate information. If they want more detail they read the article where it states that it is on the Las Vegas strip. And as for your last comment all the sourcing does not tell us to use Las Vegas, sure the ones you have listed do, but there are hundreds if not thousands of documents produced by the various levels of government that will mention Paradise, and despite your comment, yes road atlases do go that small, and maps produced by legitimate map companies are also reliable sources and as mentioned above, using Paradise would actually get your mail there. (oddly enough I actually asked about that). -DJSasso (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

You have said to use Paradise alone in the infobox and that is a poor choice to me and others. And I tried to find those thousands of government documents that say T-Mobile and the Las Vegas Knights are in Paradise... I found none. Perhaps you have better resources at your end? Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.