Talk:Symphony No. 4 (Popov)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 10:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that Gavriil Popov's Fourth Symphony was not publicly premiered until 2023, 74 years after it was composed? Source: [1]
  • ALT1: ... that composer Gavriil Popov never heard his Fourth Symphony performed in its entirety during his lifetime? "Четвертая симфония была завершена 18 сентября 1949 года. Осенью того же года композитор показывал новое сочинение на секретариате Союза композиторов. Музыку хвалили, но отмечали серьезные технические трудности в хоровых партиях. Действительно, мало кто ожидал, что в обстановке борьбы против пережитков формализма, в годы строжайшей цензуры появится столь напряженное и современное по языку сочинение, как Четвертая симфония Попова. [...] Естественно, что взяться за исполнение этой партитуры не рискнул ни один хоровой коллектив. И лишь вторая часть симфонии ("Весна") прозвучала в конце ноября 1949 года силами сводного хора Большого театра и Гнесинского института под управлением А.Хазанова. Надо полагать, что в связи со сложившимся мнением о том, что хоровая симфония Попова чрезмерно сложна и сверх масштабна, рассмотрев ее в Комитете по Сталинским премиям, пришли к мнению повременить с наградой. Повод для отказа звучал вполне убедительно: симфония не исполнялась целиком, поэтому следует вопрос отложить. Так оборвалась, фактически не начавшись, жизнь еще одного крупного сочинения Гавриила Попова: Четвертая симфония никогда не звучала полностью. ("[Popov's] Fourth Symphony was completed on September 18, 1949. In the fall of that same year, the composer showed his new work at the Secretariat of the Union of Composers. The music was praised, but serious technical difficulties in the choral parts were pointed out. Indeed, few expected that in the atmosphere of the struggle against the remnants of formalism, in those years of strict censorship, a work as intense and modern in language as Popov’s Fourth Symphony could appear. [...] Obviously, no choral group risked performing this score. Only the second movement of the symphony ("Spring") was performed at the end of November 1949 by the combined choirs of the Bolshoi Theater and the Gnessin Institute under the baton of [Alexander] Khazanov. One must assume that it was in connection with the general opinion of the excessive complexity and size of Popov's choral symphony that the Stalin Prize committee considered it, then decided to withhold the award. Their reason for rejection seemed rather persuasive: the symphony had not been performed in its entirety, therefore the matter should be postponed. Thus the life of another major work by Gavriil Popov ended without ever actually having started: the Fourth Symphony was never performed in its entirety.") Source: Гавриил Николаевич Попов: Творчество. Время. Судьба by Inna Romashchuk, p. 61
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Utoro district
  • Comment: QPQ to come later. Done!

Created by CurryTime7-24 (talk). Self-nominated at 01:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Symphony No. 4 (Popov); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article is new enough and long enough. Both of the hooks are cited inline to an offline source, so AGF there. I have tried checking the Russian source given above but I can't seem to see any mention of either hook fact there even with Google Translate. Still waiting for a QPQ. My preferred hook is ALT1 but ALT0 is also fine. My main issue is that ALT1 and the article contradict: the hook says Popov never heard the symphony performed in its entirety during his lifetime, but the article only refers to public performances but also mentions the symphony (or at least part of it) being performed privately. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:44, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for reviewing. Let me fix this issue later today. Stay tuned... —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

  I accidentally cited the Vedomosti link when I meant to cite Romashchuk's book. I'm sorry for that; I've fixed the above citation accordingly. Her quote does not specifically state that Popov never heard the symphony in its entirety. However, her statement, published in 2000, could not mean anything else since Popov died in 1973, no performances were recorded in his journals, and the link from the Mariinsky and Vedomosti refer to the February 2023 performance as a world premiere. Please do let me know if there are any further problems, though. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 00:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

As much as I do think ALT1 is the better hook, if the sourcing for it is basically synthesis, I'm afraid we'll probably have to abandon that and just go with ALT0. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You're right about the synthesis problems. I apologize for that. Let me go back to the drawing board, so to speak, do a little rewriting, and come up with some new ALTs later today. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 14:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• @CurryTime7-24: Pinging for both the new hook(s) and the QPQ. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• ALT 2: ... that Gavriil Popov's Symphony No. 4 was briefly considered for a 1949 Stalin Prize, before it was subsequently lost, rediscovered decades later, and finally premiered in 2023? Source: Consideration for Stalin Prize: Гавриил Николаевич Попов: Творчество. Время. Судьба by Inna Romashchuk, pp. 58 and 61; rediscovery of score and 2023 world premiere in [2]

That seems needlessly complicated. We can probably just go for a slight reword of ALT0 (adding the word "publicly" before "premiered"). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:33, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Also repeating that a QPQ is still needed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Noted. One more ALT and QPQ tomorrow. My apologies. Lot of work! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 06:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• ALT 3: ... that although Gavriil Popov completed his Symphony No. 4 in 1949, its world premiere didn't take place until 2023? Source: [3]
• ALT 4: ... that despite being based on "hollow Soviet texts", Gavriil Popov's Symphony No. 4 was described as "built upon the principles of liturgical and folk music"? Source: Ibid. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I suppose ALT3 or the original hook with the aforementioned suggested edit should work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:53, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24: This will be good to go once the original hook is modified, as I'd like to leave the final choice to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

ALT3 is supposed to be a modified version of ALT0. Did you want me to submit a further alteration? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24: I meant what I said above where ALT0 could work by simply adding the word "publicly" or "officially" before "premiered". Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 01:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Got it, thanks... and done! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Promoter's choice. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)