Talk:Surf music

Surf rock

See Talk:Surf rock. That article also needs some work IMO, it's not clear to me exactly what the authors mean by surf rock.

Which is fine, if that's the actual situation, as I suspect it might be! My hunch is that surf rock tends to mean the sort of surf-influenced music I particularly like at the moment, with the I meaning whoever happens to be speaking at the time! Probably Midnight Oil's awesome instrumental Wedding Cake Isle (1975) would be an example.

But, whatever surf rock might be, I guess it's a sort of surf music! The other two types I know about. (And personally, I like it all.) Andrewa 19:19, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, almost done. I think I'm now understanding what surf rock is. I still doubt that anyone aware of the history of surf music and rock and roll would be very quick to use the term, but many people obviously do use it, so it must be covered.

I'm almost ready to take the stub notice off. Some wikilinks to examples of each style, a few more external links, then I might think about it. Andrewa 03:25, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Unstubified! Andrewa 21:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Surf or cars?

Why is "Fun Fun Fun" listed as a surf song when it's about cars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.88.137.34 (talk) 14:904, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Dick Dale

It surprises me that there's not a single mention about Dick Dale in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.88.137.167 (talk) 10:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I added him. —Kenyon (t·c) 06:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Strange But Surf / All Star Surf Band / Howlin' Thurstons

Someone has been switching around links to these three bands in a short paragraph about surf revival bands. I'm going to remove them, and link to Man or Astro-Man and Los Straitjackets instead, because 1) this looks awfully like a case of self-promotion as in WP:AUTO and 2) the surf revival bands I've mentioned are currently notable enough to warrant a Wikipedia article each.

If someone can justify that the Howlin' Thurstons, Strange But Surf, or All Star Surf band are notable enough to warrant a Wikipedia article -- per WP:BIO -- then I'd say it's appropriate to mention them here. As it stands, though, they just seem to be attracting self-promotional edits. --G0zer 23:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Drosenbe aka Blacktooth aka Drosenbe626 has continued to escalate the external link spamming. I can certainly no longer keep up without running afoul of the 3RR. Is it too soon to just report these accounts as vandals? (Maybe someone already has?) I have already reported them for sockpuppetry and tagged their user talk pages with {{spam}}. None of them have responded to my notes or others' notes on their user talk pages. --G0zer 17:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Strange Dave Radio

One of the more persistent external link spams is with the URL of "strange dave radio", a low-bitrate web stream hosted by Dave Rosenberg. Even without WP:AUTO, WP:VAIN, and WP:SPAM concerns, it is my opinion that this is only a minimally relevant link at best. I have been connected and listening to Strange Dave's Radio for a couple of hours now. The vast majority of the show consists of the host exchanging telephone banter with former fraternity brothers, regarding concerts and parties in their local town, as well as a large number of homophobic jokes. Although some surf and hot rod music is played, it seems to be stuffed quite heavily with the music of Dave Rosenberg's All Star Surfers. As best I can tell, the addition of the link is an attempt at self-promotion.

The link to Strange Dave Radio at Live365 may be removed on sight. --G0zer 02:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Strange But Surf / Angelo Liguori / Marbles Mahoney

I am Angelo Liguori, Me and my band are the victim of harrasment by the Sock Puppet mentioned above as Drosenbe aka Blacktooth. He quit Strange But Surf in April 2006 and has nothing to do with me or my band. I am not Blacktooth and only go by the names above and have been defending this and other pages that have been vandalized repeatly by this attention seeker. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marbles Mahoney (talk • contribs) .

Ok. He seems to have stopped spamming, anyway. —ptk✰fgs 15:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Group them all

As far as I can see, the subgenres of surf don't really deserve totally separate pages. Why not group them all under Surf Music? They are, by the article's own confessions, pretty damn similar. Stratpod 22:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Clean up time

The article has a number of issues, including a lack of sources (WP:REF), a puzzling organisational scheme and a lot of format problems. It is also less than clear that the sub-categories are terms in general use and some of this reads like POV or OR. I will undertake a clean up soon. Any suggestions or comments that editors would like incorporated are very welcome.--Sabrebd (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I am proposing that Surf rock be merged here. Authorities such as All music, while acknowledging the instrumental and vocal forms of surf music, do not distinguish them as surf rock and surf pop, with the Beach Boys being in 'the second wave of surf rock'[[1]] Most of the material at surf rock is already covered here. It would be less confusing to have one article at this location. It seems logical to place the article here as "surf music" has the broadest coverage.--Sabrebd (talk) 07:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Many devotees of surf music would disagree, making a clean break from the Beach Boys/Jan & Dean type of vocal music (which is not considered as surf music) and instrumental surf music, a la Dick Dale, Chantays, etc. See the links provided in the external links section for opinion/discussion on this subject. While there may be good reason to discuss both types of "surf" oriented music in one article, I think it should in fact be clearly pointed out that there is significant thought that the 2 types are quite distinct. Wschart (talk) 20:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Bad link

The link to the band "The Astronauts" is incorrect and goes off to some movie instead. My wife, a Colorado native, grew up listening to them in Boulder, CO. Need a new link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.69.214.146 (talk) 00:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out. They don't seem to have an article so I removed the link.--SabreBD (talk) 07:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Surf Music and Movies

A number of teen movies during the early 60's encorporated surf music and surf themes. Endless Summer, Drag City, Ride the Wild Surf, and numerous "Beach Party" films used notable and popular surf music, sometimes featuring appearances by the recording artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goofyharry (talk • contribs) 03:47, 22 March 2010 (UTC) See Surf film

Surf Music Revival

I was surprised that there was no mention of the revival that's kind of going on right now. (Well not so much now that it's winter.) Bands like Best Coast and Wavves have both released albums in the last year that're considered surf music by a lot of people. Not only that but they've both fairly big. I think it's worth a mention. -Vhaeos (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Orange County in California

There is a surf group active in the above County. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.119.123 (talk) 14:41, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I am not happy

with this section of the lede, " backed by basic Chuck Berry rhythms." What is a "Chuck Berry rhythm," anyway? The Beach Boys ripped off some Berry tunes on their early songs, but the rhythm is just R&R. I probably will change that unless something happens here. Soon. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 01:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I removed this, "backed by basic Chuck Berry rhythms," Carptrash (talk) 18:17, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I just cut this out and moved it here for your perusal

"Their "vocal surf" style drew more from Their "vocal surf" style drew more from African-American genres such as doo wop with its scat singing and tight harmonies. such as doo wop with its scat singing and tight harmonies."
As far as I can tell this is complete nonsense. The Beach Boys vocal stylings draw much more from groups, white groups, such as The Four Freshmen than from " Their "vocal surf" style drew more from African-American genres." But let's talk. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Apache

Perhaps someone could advise me, but where does Apache (instrumental) fit into all of this? Someone has tagged that article in Category:Surf instrumentals. There is no mention of it in the article, yet I had always thought that this track fitted into this genre. William Harris • (talk) • 06:27, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion, from the point of view of someone who was in high school in Southern California at the time, Apache is not really a surf instrumental. Neither of the two big hit versions at the time ( the Shadows in the U.K. and Jorgen Ingeman in the USA) were considered as surf music at the time, although the Shadows version, heavy with reverb, is perhaps closer stylistically than Ingeman's. He was, after all, a jazz gfuitarist. Barry Weedon composed the piece inspired by Westerns, hence the title, not by surfing.

That being said there was and still is in my opinion, a certain amount of overlap between instrumental surf music and general r'n'r instrumental music. Surf bands will include versions of music not originally composed as surf music, done in the style of pure surf music. I am sure that since this work was popular in the heyday of surf music, it would often find it way into the set list of surf bands.Wschart (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Evaluation of some sentences in History

Evaluating Surf Music

within history, there was a sentence referring to the definition of reverb. There was no citation of where the definition came from.

Wrote "probably the single-most famous surf tune" this implies opinion of music due to no citation to proof that it was a top chart or most listened to song during that time period.

Citation needed for chart toppers for "Wipe Out"

Grims15NEC (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Carlie

Removal of Important info

On Feb 16, 2019, I made an addition called producers. Which basically looked like this below,
Revision as of 10:56, 16 February 2019

Producers

Herb Alpert played a part in the genre, producing for Jan & Dean. Tony Hilder who owned the Impact label was a prolific surf music producer. His name as publisher, producer etc., appears on many records, both 45s and albums. If not for the poor crediting on the budget releases his name would have appeared on more. Gary Usher was a producer who produced, arranger and writer. His work included the Surfaris and the Hondells. He also wrote "409" and "In My Room", which were hits for the Beach Boys.

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And later you User:ILIL came in and removed my work with this explanation below,
12:58, 16 May 2019 (→‎Producers: WP:NAMEDROP, not even placed in the right section --- and so long as we're talking producers, where's Brian Wilson?)
Well, I utterly reject the WP:NAMEDROP insinuation and say that is inaccurate and incorrect!
Since then I have put my work back in [2] improving on it and slightly expanding on it while you have undone my work on Revision as of 23:59, 28 September 2019 with (→‎Producers: see prev rationale). Well I believe your rationale is wrong so I invite you to discuss this with me before undoing my work again.
My last edit on Jan 19, 2020 looked like this below,

Producers

Herb Alpert played a part in the genre, producing for Jan & Dean. Tony Hilder who owned the Impact label was a prolific surf music producer. His name as publisher, producer etc., appears on many records, both 45s and albums. If not for the poor crediting on the budget releases his name would have appeared on more. Gary Usher was a producer, arranger and writer. His work included the Surfaris and the Hondells. He also wrote "409" and "In My Room", which were hits for the Beach Boys. Terry Melcher was a producer, noted for his part in shaping the sound of surf music as well as folk. He worked closely with the Beach Boys and was responsible for some of their chart success. Outside Brian Wilson's work with the Beach Boys, one of the acts he produced was Bob & Sheri with their 1962 single, "Surfer Moon".

Revision as of 07:28, 19 January 2020

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THE PRODUCERS & THEIR CONTRIBUTION

Herb Alpert

• Herb Alpert played a part in the genre, producing for Jan & Dean. See Rock and Roll, By Maury Dean - Page 297
• There's even an album Surfin Senorita that surf bands have recorded in a tribute to him.

Tony Hilder

• Tony Hilder who owned the Impact label was a prolific surf music producer. See The Encyclopedia of Popular Music, Colin Larkin Page 287, also The Illustrated Discography of Surf Music, 1961-1965, John Blair - Page 102, and The Golden Age of Rock Instrumentals by Steven Otfinoski -Page 140.
• His name as publisher, producer etc., appears on many records, both 45s and albums. If not for the poor crediting on the budget releases his name would have appeared on more. See Who Put the Bomp, No.14, Fall 1975- Page 12 "The Tony Hilder Story" by John Blair & Bill Smart
  Quote: The Tony Hilder Story
  By John Blair & Bill Smart
  Any attempt at a comprehensive survey of the surf
  music scene would be flagrantly incomplete. He was responsible for more
  local surf music than any one individual.
• In an article by CD Review, Volume 12, page 70 Hilder is referred to as "legendary surf guru".
• Hilder is mentioned in on various pages Surfin' Guitars: Instrumental Surf Bands of the Sixties - Surfin' Pages 50, 52, 149, 150, 151, 210, 212, 213, 215, 227, 228, 259, 260, 261, 298, 299
• Some surf albums by Hilder here at - - Archive
  
• Some of his many records either on his labels or artists he produced, many of them surf Discography 0 Discography 1, Discography 2, Discography 3
• Then there's Hilder's alias, Mark Hilder. See Discogs - Mark Hilder. Also see AllMusic - Mark Hilder

Terry Melcher

• Terry Melcher was a producer, noted for his part in shaping the sound of surf music as well as folk. He worked closely with the Beach Boys and was responsible for some of their chart success. See The New York Times, November 22, 2004 - Terry Melcher, 62, Creator of Hits in Surf-Music World, Is Dead By Jeff Leads
• Terry Melcher; helped create surf music sound. See boston.com.news - Terry Melcher; helped create surf music sound By Myrna Oliver, Los Angeles Times November 22, 2004

Gary Usher

• Gary Usher was a producer who produced, arranger and writer. His work included the Surfaris and the Hondells. He also wrote "409" and "In My Room", which were hits for the Beach Boys. See Los Angeles Times, June 02, 1990 - Gary Usher; Co-Writer of Beach Boys Hits
• Gary Usher helped shape the BB's sound - www.beachboys.com - GARY USHER
• AllMusic on Usher's band The Super Stocks

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So ILIL please before undoing my work again like you did with Revision as of 00:36, 26 February 2020, please, let's talk about it. I have included some background on the artists that I know have a place in the history of surf music. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 10:03, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• APRIL 2022 Dear User:ILIL, please come here to discuss things before removing the Producers section. You have tried a different excuse every time. The people in the section played a prominent part. We can discuss this here. OK! Regards Karl Twist (talk) 11:43, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I've used the same edit rationale since 2019: WP:NAMEDROP. You don't have sources that state "Herb Alpert was an influential surf rock producer who contributed XYZ to the genre's development." Instead, you have banal trivia like "Herb Alpert produced Jan & Dean" and meaningless superlatives like "Tony Hilder is a legendary surf producer." This article is about surf music, not about record producers (WP:COATRACK). ili (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Has this dispute really been going on for three years? I suggest soliciting more opinions from the Wikiprojects listed at the top of this talk page, especially the ones marked high importance. My own personal opinion is that we should not include info whose only source is a producer's obituary. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Dear ILIL. You're still using different excuses. Auer music genre article without any info on who was producing it would be like having an article about a car and not mentioning the engine! Other musical genres here have section for producers. How can you look at and assess something without knowing what is behind it? Before attacking an article please discuss the matter here Karl Twist (talk) 08:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 29 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Surf music → Surf rock – The term "surf rock" is more commonly used then "surf music". As per this, the term "surf rock" is more commonly used than "surf music". I therefore believe that WP:COMMONNAME applies here. JJPMaster (talk) 14:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support, its a kind of rock, not surf easy-listening or surf rap. Hyperbolick (talk) 06:58, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is unnecessary. The fact is that, in the early 1960s (certainly in the UK, and I believe in the US as well), the term "rock" was not widely used for this music - it was known as surf music. Google hits are often not a reliable guide for article naming. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:05, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Kent Crowley's Surf Beat: Rock ’N’ Roll’s Forgotten Revolution, A Backbeat Book, 2011, in the Introduction says, "They called it surf music." That's good enough for me. Carptrash (talk) 07:26, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Google engineers don't use Google for statistical analysis, neither should we. Carlstak (talk) 11:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose This article encompasses all music qualified as "surf" (i.e. surf rock, surf pop, surf punk ...). ili (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Timeline

Surf rock wasn't invented until the early 1960s. So how was it popular since 1958? This is really nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.157.164.159 (talk) 22:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I removed this

from the Revival section because it does not say what it has to do with surf music. If someone wants to expand it, that would be good.
"The fictitious band, Captain Geech and the Shrimp Shack Shooters, appeared in the film That Thing You Do!."
Carptrash (talk) 15:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Middle Eastern music in stylistic origins?

I noticed that one editor asked people to discuss whether to put Middle Eastern music in the stylistic origins section of the lead infobox. I myself don't know, I have seen evidence about Middle Eastern music specifically inspiring Dick Dale's stuff but I am unsure of its influence on the genre collectively. Evaporation123 (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)