Talk:Super League Greece

Super League Greece 2007

The new article about the new Greek Championship.A new era begins.--Michael 11:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Some vital changes and contributin that should be made

Hey guys,please in the Greek football box change the name of the league into Super League Greece and try to find the Super league Logo to add it both to the article and to the box.Last but not least,wherever you find the name Alpha Ethniki or Greek National Divison change it into Super League Greece.Thank you.--Michael 10:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

who can i change the box about greek football??

Should we mention the 2 week suspension?

?? Reaper7 02:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

WWII years vandal

According to this (official) link [1], between 1941 and 1945 no championships were held. How on earth can we stop this vandal from adding fake titles?--KaragouniS 14:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SuperLeagueGreece.jpg

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BetacommandBot 01:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

SEGAS

its official from 1905 . Segas ofcourse is official. Are you crazy??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.179.55 (talk) 13:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

SEGAS championships are not recognised as official. When you look at the Greek Champions, Ethnikos or Goudi are not listed. If you want you could create a separate article for the SEGAS Championship but it has nothing to do with the Panhellenic Championship, Alpha Ethniki and Super League, so you should not start an edit war in another one article, like you recently did- Sthenel (talk) 13:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

dear IP user, next time you'll revert edits, you'll be banned from Wikipedia for breaking the Three Revert Rule. Plus the edits you made are not correct, as EPO officialy recognizes only the championships after 1927. --KaragouniS :  Chat  16:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Seasons in Super League

Apollon Athens has 37 seasons in super league 85.74.173.200 (talk) 21:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

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Kala p dn xereis ellinika n s vrizw oso thelw #baby#xe xe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.194.33 (talk) 22:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Pan-hellenic Championship 1940-41 and 1942-43

I found the articles [Pan-hellenic Championship 1940-41], [Pan-hellenic Championship 1942-43]. What must we do about them? Sportin (talk) 12:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Final position

Finally, which one is considered the final position of the teams, that of the regular season or after play offs? We cannot say all the time that a team finished 2nd in the regular season and 4th in the play offs. One position is supposed to be the final one. Which one? The play offs determine the final place in the league or just the qualification to the European Cups? - Sthenel (talk) 22:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The final position is the one after the play-offs (no doubt). That's why the play-offs exist. Psyrras Panagiotis 10:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinis smooth (talk • contribs)

Move to 'Superleague'

The logo and official website have it as one word.--Jeff79 (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Done.--Jeff79 (talk) 09:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Thermaikos

Thermaikos Thessaloniki is not the same with Thermaikos Thermi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.124.221 (talk) 15:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Panargiakos

Panargiakos have not played in the top league since the national league was created in 1959. Please delete all references to them in this article. Irlandos (talk) 09:12, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Aek

Aek Athens is a team based in ...Athens(i thought this was self explained). Nea Filadelfia is just one of the many municipalities of greater City of Athens — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.87.156.164 (talk) 04:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I will change it, are you from Greece ?--Alexiulian25 (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Old seasons

Someone who knows Greek language to update / create the old seasons! Thanks!--Alexiulian25 (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Segas titles

Here www.greeksporhistory.blogspot.gr/2009/01/1894-1896.html .--77.49.32.79 (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Aris

Why is Aris not included in the Performance by Club and Performance by City? 83.80.18.68 (talk) 14:38, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Corruption section

There is a persistent removal of content by new user Montigliani, who first used the following description to justify his action: "Removal of vandalism. These additions are based on unreliable fan forums and no relationship with the Greek Championship over time." It goes without saying that the content is cited by high end sources, including the BBC, Guardian and many other reliable media. Montigliani doubled down this morning, this time with no reason. Dynasty Power (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

There are entries about the modules you add. But they have no place here and never existed before. (Personal attack removed) no one has ever been convicted by Olympiakos. On the contrary, he was acquitted in all the cases he was accused of. In a league with a 100-year history, only the performances of the teams and not your hatred for a club and its president have a place. Montigliani (talk) 16:44, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

The nature of corruption in Greek football is very well documented by international media and academic researchers. Dynasty Power (talk) 12:40, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

The issue is what business it has in the article of the Greek league. There are other other articles on these topics (2015 Greek football match-fixing scandal, Evangelos Marinakis). From what I can see, you have updated them properly. (Personal attack removed) Olympiacos and its president were acquitted of all the cases that his opponents accused him of. (Personal attack removed) Montigliani (talk) 13:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Source

https://www.gazzetta.gr/specials/2308366/horis-emas-den-tha-ypirhe-o-olympiakos-i-agnosti-istoria-tis-protis-omadas

Βρισκόμαστε στις αρχές Αυγούστου 1923. Η ομάδα του Πειραϊκού Συνδέσμου, η οποία πριν από μερικές εβδομάδες είχε κατακτήσει τους τελικούς Αθηνά, Πειραιά και Σμύρνης επικρατώντας και στα τέσσερα παιχνίδια κόντρα σε Παναθηναϊκό, Πανιώνιο, Απόλλωνα και Πειραϊκή Ένωση, επιβιβάζεται στο ατμόπλοιο «Χίος» με προορισμό τη Θεσσαλονίκη. Εκεί πρόκειται να αντιμετωπίσει τον Άρη για τον τελικό του πρώτου επίσημου πρωταθλήματος Ελλάδος. Ο αγώνας είναι προγραμματισμένος για τις 12 Αυγούστου, ενώ για έδρα ορίζεται στο γήπεδο του Ηρακλή στις Σκαμνιές. Ο τύπος της εποχής ασχολείται εκτενώς με το παιχνίδι. «Ο αγών ούτος, ο πρώτος δια το νεοσυσταθέν Πανελλήνιον πρωτάθλημα προμηνύεται πεισματοδέστατος. Εις τους συμπολίτας μας δίδεται η ευκαιρία να συγκρίνουν την πρόοδον του Ποδοσφαίρου εν Παλαιά Ελλάδι και εν Μακεδονία. Ο αγών ούτος θέλει επιρεάσει σοβαρώς την εκλογήν της Ελληνικής Εθνικής Ομάδος διά τους Ολυμπιακους Αγώνας των Παρισίων» σημειώνεται σε άρθρο της εφημερίδας Μακεδονία. 2A02:586:813D:2A2F:7DD0:9BC8:776:F439 (talk) 08:09, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Corruption and violence

Hi, everyone. The two sections within the body of the article delve into a highly pertinent and widely acknowledged aspect of Greek football, extensively documented by various sources over the past decade. Initially introduced by a user previously banned for misconduct, this substantial section was later inexplicably removed. The questionable and continuous removal was attributed to the user's ban status, which is a rather arbitrary reason considering the wealth of credible citations supporting the content. Such actions raise questions about the understanding of Wikipedia's guidelines, veering into the territory of vandalism. It's imperative to note that the section in question addresses a longstanding and extensively reported issue within Greek football, making its removal without substantial consensus both puzzling and unjustified. While consensus-driven edits are encouraged, the current state of affairs underscores the importance of preserving well-researched and widely recognized content, despite its origins. EverLove124 (talk) 09:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

First of all you are lying as you are a user yourself, so a puppet. Secondly. You could put these two sections in without undoing previous users' edits, but you don't. Thirdly, why are you limited only to the scandals of the last decade and not to all the scandals of Greek football? And last. The entries of all national leagues refer only to the performances of teams and footballers. There are separate entries for the various scandals. You simply have a personal problem with the president of Olympiacos and Olympiacos in general and you are trying to tarnish his history. Wikipedia means neutrality which you don't have and therefore your editing is not accepted. Montigliani (talk) 16:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no explanation of the removal and once again you are accusing me of being a puppet without running a checkuser as per WP policy. Feel free to bring any other scandals that should be mentioned without erasing cited content without any consensus. EverLove124 (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

No discussion with you makes sense. You don't answer anything I asked you and you do whatever you want. Also no checkuser is needed for you. The administrators know who you are and you will receive your reply soon. Montigliani (talk) 16:47, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I've asked you three times now what specifically you disagree with regarding the cited content. In just a few sentences, you disputed the existence of scandals without addressing any inaccuracies in the citations provided. I extended an invitation for you to contribute to my addition, hoping for a constructive exchange, but unfortunately, it hasn't materialized. Let's wait and see who responds. Your actions seem akin to vandalism. EverLove124 (talk) 21:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, you look a lot like the user here User:Dynasty Power. You are all the same I would say.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_League_Greece#Corruption_section
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_League_Greece#Corruption_and_violence

Montigliani (talk) 23:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Further subdivision of the Championship from 2005

@Montigliani: The Greek championship is divided into three sections, which are also listed in the article:

• Panhellenic Championship (1927-1959)
• National League (1959-1979)
• Professional League (1979-present)

A further subdivision of the Professional League from 2005 or 2019 is unnecessary, as these only include changes to the league name and have not changed the format of the league. I would agree with @Abudabanashere, with whom you are in an edit war on this topic. Miria~01 (talk) 13:38, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

But I disagree. I think a league with no playoffs is different than a league with extra playoffs. Why bother with most of the details, since the essence is the same. I don't change the champions, but I explain in detail how champions were made. Montigliani (talk) 09:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

But that's just your personal view without any evidence that any medium describes it that way. It's a clear WP:OR. Point to at least one source that shares your point of view.

See also:

• https://www.gazzetta.gr/football/superleague/2335552/katektise-4o-protathlima-tis-istorias-toy-o-paok-i-hrysi-biblos-ton

Miria~01 (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

And who told you that the gazzeta.gr is a reliable source? This is a reliable source: https://www.slgr.gr/el/management/ which says that:The Cooperative was founded in July 2006, in the form of a civil Limited Liability Cooperative in accordance with the provisions of Law 1667/1986 and Law 3479/2006 on the "Establishment, organization and operation of sports professional associations and other provisions". Members of the Cooperative are the Football Corporations (P.A.E.).

The main activity of the Cooperative is the organization and conduct of the football championship of professional football A' National category, in accordance with the regulations and decisions of the Hellenic Football Federation (E.P.O.) and the above international football confederations (U.E.F.A., F.I.F.A.).

Before 2006, the organizer of the championship was Hellenic Football Federation. After 2006 we have another organizing authority. The Super League.

So stop vandalizing with your friends. Montigliani (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani The organiser was ΕΠΑΕ since 1979, not the HFF. What happened in 2006 was that the ΕΠΑΕ was dissolved and transformed into the Super League. The teams remained Limited companies, the players are professionals and the format is the same. The change of the name is already mentioned and also the addition of playoffs/playouts occasionally. For the first season we had no playoffs, then for some seasons we had for pos. 2-5, then again for some years we had none, the last years we have for pos. 1-6. All that are unnecessary details for someone who simply wants to understand what is the difference between Panhellenic/National/Professional and how the Greek Championship evolved. The SL is part of the Professional League section of the Greek Championship. Abudabanas (talk) 16:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Unnecessary details in a correct entry do not exist. On the contrary, it is a big mistake to omit important things, such as: league without playoffs, league where the champion emerges after playoffs. Then let's integrate all the championships from 1927 to the present in one category. Montigliani (talk) 18:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani It is more important for you to mention if a season in 2008 or 2018 had play-offs or not, rather than help someone understand what is the difference between a Panhellenic Championship (1927-1958) and a National/Professional League (1959-79-present). To help someone truly capture the evolution of the Greek Championship Abudabanas (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Miria~01 Need your help on this with reporting for resolution, admins etc. There is no way he will stop reverting and do his own thing. Abudabanas (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Miria~01 What is the Greek Super League? It is simply the name of the league since 2006. A change of the name. The SL is a professional league. The same goes for all the league editions since 1979-80. The players are professionals, teams are limited companies, the format remained the same. A national round-robin tournament. Followed occasionally by playoffs/playouts which is the only difference and is already mentioned. The differences between Panhellenic/National/Professional are the most important and should be clearly shown and available to every reader in my opinion. These are the 3 sections of the Greek Championship as it evolved through the years. It is also how the Greek Championship was presented in the official HFF site (Πανελλήνιο/Εθνικό/Επαγγελματικό meaning Panhellenic/National/Professional). I don't know why that link is recently dead though. The most popular website gazzetta.gr wrote exactly the same thing. Abudabanas (talk) 15:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Final stage playoffs of Panhellenic Championship (1927-59) named as top division

I find that totally wrong. A top division was established in Greece in 1959. The final stage playoffs between the winners/top ranked teams of the Regional Leagues should not be named top division participations. There was no top division and no team was relegated to a 2nd division. There were regional leagues and final stage playoffs. To back up my point of view I will present the following: i) In the List of unrelegated association football clubs article, the historical considerations section explains in detail the differences in many countries between older league formats with regional leagues - final stage playoffs and the present ones which are national round-robin tournaments. ii) Watching a Greek derby on TV during the last 30-40 years, all broadcasting channels (NOVAsports/Cosmote or SKAI/MEGA in the past) when they show tables of the results history between 2 teams, they never include matches before 1959 in the statistics. Even if it is AEK-Panathinaikos or Aris-PAOK for example. They met in the past multiple times in their Regional Leagues and also in the Final Stage playoffs of the Panhellenic Championship (1927-59). The same goes for the official Super League website, bookmakers, betting info websites or sports websites. All of them do not include the results before 1959 and do not consider them as division matches because there is a huge difference. The format was different. We have a National League, a Top Division since 1959. Before 1959, there was a championship tournament containing two stages. The Regional Leagues which were simiral to present qualifying rounds and the final stage playoffs who determined the champion. iii) I will give an example on why a table presenting a first season appearance in Panhellenic Championship final stage as a first season in top division is false in my opinion. The season of the inaugural Greek Championship 1927-28. Aris faced PAOK in the Thessaloniki Regional League. Aris finished 1st and PAOK 2nd. Aris qualified for the final stage playoffs of the Championship. The previous table which I altered showed: Seasons in top division, Aris 1 / PAOK 0. How is that possible when they faced each other that season? If I am a foreigner with little knowledge in Greek football history who reads this table, I will falsely presume that there was a top division where Aris was playing and PAOK was playing in a lower one. I simply corrected that and wrote the table like this. Seasons in Panhellenic Championship Final Stage, Aris 1 / PAOK 0. I find that accurate. And the same goes for all seasons where Panathinaikos qualified from the Athens Regional League and AEK did not or the opposite. I did not delete the total appearances in the final stage of the Panhellenic Championship of each team. I changed the table where it is characterised as top division appearance in order that it is presented more properly and in a more accurate way. Anyone who disagrees can write down his opinion on the matter. Thank you Abudabanas (talk) 10:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

And if someone disagrees, does it matter? You're not going to change your mind anyway. Series is as follows:

1) Panhellenic Championship (1927–1959)

2) First National Division 1959– 1979)

3) Professional Championship (1980-2006) in between: Senior Division (2000–2001)

4) Super League (2006–2019) with a playoff for places 2-5 to go to Europe

5) Super League 1 (2019–Present) With a playoff for positions 1-6 to determine the champion. From this year it applies to positions 1-4.

All the rest are your own philosophical concerns and reflections that have nothing to do with reality. Montigliani (talk) 06:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course it matters when someone disagrees. All these are changes of the name of the Championship. When we are talking about format, structure, professionalism or not, clubs being limited companies or not, the Championship is divided in: 1) Panhellenic Championship (1927–59) 2) National League (1959–79) 3) Professional League (1979–present). In the official website of the Hellenic Football Federation it was presented exactly like this. However, this link is dead recently, don't know why. In rssf.com it is divided in Panhellenic and National League only. If someone reads the English Wiki and has little knowledge of Greek football I believe he surely has to be informed on when the National League was established in Greece (1959) and when the League became professional and the clubs Football Incorporated Companies (1979). So, what changed after 1979? i) The name of the Championship (SL and later SL1 replaced Alpha Ethniki Katigoria) ii) the organising body (EPAE was replaced by SL, always under the supervision of the HFF) iii) small changes of the format like having playoffs/playouts (first SL season no playoffs at all, then playoffs for pos. 2-5, then for pos. 1-6 and from this year on for 1-4). Up to this day the league is still professional and clubs are still Football Incorporated Companies. The following is written on the website of the SL main sponsor [2]:

The Super League Greece 1, is the highest professional association football league in Greece. The league was formed on 16 July 2006 and replaced Alpha Ethniki at the top of the Greek football league system. It consists of 14 teams and runs from August to May, with teams playing 26 games. Since the foundation of the first official Panhellenic Championship, only six clubs have won the title (Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, AEK, P.A.O.K., Aris and A.E.L.). Olympiacos with 47 titles has won the most in the history of the competition.

The history of the first unified football league began in the 1959-60 season with the creation of the A’ National Division, the form of which has generally been maintained to this day.

On 19 January 1979 a bill was passed in the Hellenic Parliament under which football clubs became Football Incorporated Companies (PAE). The Association of Football Incorporated Companies (EPAE), under the supervision of the HFF, has since held the responsibility to hold the championship.

Super League

During the 2006-07 season, the Hellenic Football Federation agreed to the withdrawal of the 16 member clubs of the A’ National League from the EPAE, so that they could establish a cooperative association of football clubs under the name ‘Super League Greece’, which succeeded EPAE in the organisation of the Greek first division championship. With the new football restructuring of 2019, from the 2019-20 season, the professional football association Super League was renamed to “Super League 1”.

The main sponsor of SL is presenting here the history of the Greek Championship. I added bold to indicate the decisive changes that occured during the evolution of the Greek Championship and which are mentioned in the article. From 2006 onwards SL succeeded EPAE in the organisation of the Greek first division championship and the league was renamed. A professional football association Super League. Professional. Since 1979. That did not change. My pov is that the Greek Championship is divided in 3 main subcategories (Panhellenic, National, Professional). If you add all the name changes (or if we have playoffs for 2-5 or 1-6 or 1-4) which in my opinion should be surely presented in the article, but not as subcategories of the Greek Championship (that is exactly our disagreement), then we have Panhellenic/National/Professional/2001 Upper Category/SL/SL1. Abudabanas (talk) 17:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

You wrote a whole sheet to say the same things as me. Maybe it's your tactic to distract the readers. In short: the first national division is different from the super league because the champion emerges in a different way, just as it was different in 1927-59 than in 1960-80. Then came professionalism, another dimension as well. If you don't understand that, there's no point in talking. Montigliani (talk) 17:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani If we are saying the same thing, then I will ask you a simple question. Which are the main subcategories of the Greek Championship? Rssf for example presents 2. In my pov (and the HFF official website), 3. What's your pov? How many? Abudabanas (talk) 18:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I mention it in my first comment. Five. Montigliani (talk) 18:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani Ok, I say 3 and that the additional 2 are simply successions/renames. Instead of edit warring, endlessly writing and leaving comments to eachother, we can be civil. There are lot of things you can do. Call other users who show interest on football articles to share their thoughts, open a discussion on Wiki Project Football, ask for a 3rd opinion, ask for dispute resolution. I had a similar disagreement on the Greek football Cup article some years ago. On whether the 1962 final should count as a runner-up honour for Olympiacos and Panathinaikos. Other users from Wiki Project Football helped and provided the solution. Abudabanas (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what solution you gave. However, in the 1986-87 championship there are 26 more losses than wins because 13 matches were counted as losses for both teams. It says so RSSSF. Montigliani (talk) 19:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

And if you didn't understand what I want to say, I'll explain. If a match does not take place, if it is interrupted, if it is not finished and both teams are considered responsible, then both are considered lost. Something like that happened then too if I remember correctly. So if you gave this solution you did well. If not, you were wrong. But I saw that the final is mentioned and that there is a note that it was interrupted and for what reason. But I always think it was like that. I don't understand what you did differently. Montigliani (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

a relevant source

https://web.archive.org/web/20220522105908/http://www.oldfootball.gr/k2/user-page/item/60-apagoreythikan-ta-olympiakos-panathinaikos.html Montigliani (talk) 20:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani Runner-up means a game/competition was held and you finished 2nd. When you reach a final and it is abandoned like in 1962, to add a Runner-up honour for both Oly and Pan is statistically wrong. They were both finalists, but not runners-up, neither winners. A user kept adding them as runners-up. We had a disagreement. You can read it in Talk page. Other users came in, almost all of them had the same pov and one of them made the current edit with the note on Oly and Pan honours. The note says 'In addition to this total, they also reached the 1962 final which was abandoned and they are considered as finalists'. They also added notes on 1964 and 1966 AEK Athens honours. I find the current edit perfect. I did not write it. Someone else did when a disagreement occurred. A non-Greek user with a neutral pov who liked football related articles. So I am telling you, we have a different pov on this article. The SL article. There are plenty of things you can do and maybe someone else can come in and give a solution. Abudabanas (talk) 20:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Jokes. They are both lost. This is what you say and I don't know who else. But I am not interested in this matter. I have the Greek championship and that's what I'll deal with. Montigliani (talk) 21:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Montigliani Nobody won, nobody lost. Abandoned. Not finished. To add them both as 2nd is wrong. The same way it would be if you added them as 1st. To have in the same season two second places is also wrong. Statistically. 5-6 users had the same pov on this, but for you it's a joke. Greek Championship subcategories. 3 or 5? Who knows, we'll see. Abudabanas (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to convince your audience? That's probably what it looks like to me, and you've probably done something really stupid there. As you saw in the championship, points were deducted from both teams. Both were defeated. He has no points in the cup. It has a title. But nobody took him and they were both punished for mocking the match. They lost the cup that is. But I told you not to bother me about it, because I don't care. And how are you asking me to ask someone else's opinion before you see what I'm going to do! Crazy stuff. Montigliani (talk) 21:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)