Talk:Sun Yat-sen/Archive 1

older entries

Triad Connections ?

Is this true , this is the first time I ever heard of this ? and Chaing kai Shek as well ?

Can someone confirm this with some references or reliable links.

Rokko from Malaysia .

Great Guy

He was a great guy, I wish that he could have lived longer. The reality is, after his death, Jiang's KMT lost, and Mao's communist party won. He was quite admirable, for both KMT and Mao's communist party to admire him as an important figure. -Jan

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The passage from the President of ROC website:

中山先生早年行醫，因目睹滿清政府腐敗無能，國家一再遭受外國侵略，情勢危急，民生凋敝，決心從事革命運動，推翻滿清帝制，重建民國；於是在甲午（一八九四）年十月創立興中會，揭示振興中華的宗旨，開始革命救國大業，並在一九○五年八月，正式提出民族、民權、民生三大主義。中山先生所領導的革命運動，經過了十次失敗，最後在辛亥（一九一一）年十月十日的武昌起義，一舉成功，歷經五千年的帝制終於宣告結束。 　　同年十二月二十五日，各省代表在南京集會，選舉中山先生為中華民國臨時大總統，並且決定以辛亥年十一月十三日，也就是一九一二年一月一日，為中華民國開元之日，定為中華民國元年元旦，亞洲第一個民主共和國－中華民國正式誕生。中山先生就任以後，首先通電各省選派參議員前往南京，組成國家最高民意機關－參議院，隨後訂定「臨時政府組織大綱」及「中華民國臨時約法」為國家基本大法；民國八年中山先生完成「建國方略」一書，提出以三民主義建設一個極和平、極自由、極平等的國家。民國十年，中山先生當選中華民國大總統，並在民國十二年發布宣言，聲明以三民主義為立國的根本，以五權憲法為制度的綱領。 　 　　民國十三年由於軍閥戰事不斷，中山先生秉持和平奮鬥救中國的信念，在十一月十日發表北上宣言，提出召開國民會議及廢除不平等條約的主張之後，在十三日抱病從廣州啟程前往北京準備共商國事，民國十四（一九二五）年三月十二日不幸病逝北京，享壽六十歲。

Saved it here for future reference. Some of the terms are virtually unknown in English and researching them on google would take more time than I initially thought. The passage was almost translated php. Ktsquare

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"中山先生早年行醫，因目睹滿清政府腐敗無能，國家一再遭受外國侵略，情勢危急，民生凋敝，決心從事革命運動，推翻滿清帝制，重建民國；於是在甲午（一八九四）年十月創立興中會，揭示振興中華的宗旨，開始革命救國大業，並在一九○五年八月，正式提出民族、民權、民生三大主義。中山先生所領導的革命運動，經過了十次失敗，最後在辛亥（一九一一）年十月十日的武昌起義，一舉成功，歷經五千年的帝制終於宣告結束。　　 Zhongshan Mr. long ago line □, because witnessed □Qing government spoiled □□energy outside, □the family suffers □the aggression repeatedly, the sentiment □is critical, 民生凋敝, □the heart □matter revolution □□, overthrows □the clear monarchy, reconstructs the people □; Thereupon noon (1,894) year in October □stands in the armor □center □, promulgates inspires □center □objective, □the beginning revolution rescued □is big □, □in August, 1905, officially proposed the nationality, the people □, the livelihood of the people three big hosts □. Zhongshan Mr. □□the revolution □□, □□ten time has lost □, finally (1,911) the year October 10 Wuchang gets up in Xinhai □, a □success, □□5000 monarchy □□ties to the announcement.

同年十二月二十五日，各省代表在南京集會，選舉中山先生為中華民國臨時大總統，並且決定以辛亥年十一月十三日，也就是一九一二年一月一日，為中華民國開元之日，定為中華民國元年元旦，亞洲第一個民主共和國－中華民國正式誕生。 In the same year on December 25, various provinces representative in the Nanjing collection □, □□Zhongshan Mr. □center □the people □□□big □□, □also □decides by 辛亥年 on November 13, also was on January 1, 1912, □center □a people □□Yuan date, decided □center □the people □first year New Year's Day, □the continent first □democracy republican □- center □people □were official □live.

中山先生就任以後，首先通電各省選派參議員前往南京，組成國家最高民意機關－參議院，隨後訂定「臨時政府組織大綱」及「中華民國臨時約法」為國家基本大法；民國八年中山先生完成「建國方略」一書，提出以三民主義建設一個極和平、極自由、極平等的國家。 After Zhongshan Mr. takes office, first passes □various provinces □to send □□□to go to Nanjing, □Cheng?jia the highest public opinion □□- □□courtyard, after □□decides "□□the government □□big □" and "center □the people □□□□law" □□the family basic is big method; People □eight year Zhongshan Mr. completes "constructs □the plan" one □, proposed □constructs □a □□peace by three democracies, □is free, □the equality □the family.

民國十年，中山先生當選中華民國大總統，並在民國十二年發布宣言，聲明以三民主義為立國的根本，以五權憲法為制度的綱領。　　　 The people □ten years, Zhongshan Mr. □□center □the people □are big □□, □at the people □12 years □cloth manifesto, □clearly □□stands by three democracies □the basis, by five □□law □systems □□.

民國十三年由於軍閥戰事不斷，中山先生秉持和平奮鬥救中國的信念，在十一月十日發表北上宣言，提出召開國民會議及廢除不平等條約的主張之後，在十三日抱病從廣州啟程前往北京準備共商國事，民國十四（一九二五）年三月十二日不幸病逝北京，享壽六十歲。 The people □13 years as a result of □□□the matter □, Zhongshan Mr. do not grasp peace □□rescues □the faith, □the table go north the manifesto in November 10, proposed summon □□the people □□and □after not the equal □□host □, are ill □□the state □regulation in 13th to go to Beijing □□to discuss together □the matter, the people □14 (1,925) the year on March 12 unfortunately died of illness Beijing, enjoy □60 □."

If anyone wants to put chinese again, please give a small summary because i dont know whats goin on.Gunnerdevil4 (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Isn't modern technology just wonderful?

Yeah, it would have been nice if Dr. Sun had lived longer too. I have the impression he was the glue that held the two parties together. And might have avoided civil war. But that's all water under the bridge now. Today, there is the One China policy, which hopefully will achieve peace and prosperity to all Chinese.

Paradigmbuff 00:29, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

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This article needs to be edited for NPOV. It relies too heavily on the official Kuomintang view of Sun Yatsen and doesn't include prespectives from the Communist Party or in post-1970 revisionist historians who argue that Sun really wasn't that important in the 1911 revolution.

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I moved the page following a request on wikipedia:votes for deletion. Let me know if there's a problem, and I'll move it back. Martin

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Changed. I've never heard Sun Yat-Sen refered to as guo fu in Mainland China.

Roadrunner

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Need we add tone-number on the Cantonese pronunciation? --Samuel 08:06, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sure. --Menchi 04:59, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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From the official ROC bio: "Dr. Sun denied the inevitability of communism in China. He believed that class struggle, an intrinsic element of communism, was not a requirement of human progress. He reiterated this point in a joint declaration issued with Soviet envoy Adolf Joffe in 1923, which stated that the communist system was not suitable for China. He also believed that cooperation rather than class struggle was the motive force for social development."

This may be worth noting, regarding his legacy in mainland China. --Jiang 04:18, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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One might add an early years section, stressing his struggles and being more or less persecuted by the emperial Chinese government. A quite well known fact is, that he was held hostage in the London's Chinese embassy (he was kidnapped there). Somehow he could contact the former dean of his medical college in Hong Kong, now in London. Eventually the British foreign ministry intervened. (Sorry, I do not find the source, but it was during the very first exile)

Well documented on http://sunyatsen.hawaii.org/english/visits/fifth/index.html with original sources is how he pretended (and sweared) to be of Hawaiian birth. This was needful to enter the US in spite of the petition by the Chinese ambassador.

by Vittorio Brambilla Feb 14 2004

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Removed: "partly as a way of improving relations with supports of Chinese reunification on Taiwan"

The statement is unsubstantiated. Perhaps it is true, but there's no evidence to support this. I think it has to do more with replacing Chinese nationalism with communism as a means of promoting the state/party as communism has become less relevant with economic reforms. --Jiang 04:27, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Should this article be moved to the pinyin name, Sun Yixian? WhisperToMe 05:02, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Probably not. "Sun Yat-sen" is a whole lot more common in English, and "Sūn Zhōngshān" is what they call him in Chinese. - Nat Krause 07:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Names section

I disagree with the last edit by User:Madw.

What is relevant in the intro is not what all his various names are, but what most people know him by. The fact that Chinese-speaking people almost always call him Sun Zhongshan while English-speaking people call him Sun Yat-sen was removed. Is Yixian not a courtesy name? Why was it removed as such? Also removed was where he is called Guofu. When we introduce a person, it is best to list out all the names commonly used, but the other names aren't used so they're not introductory material. If a name section is inappropriate, then move the names to the relevant part of the bio that discusses the era he used them.

In addition, Tang means 'political party' so "Kuomintang political party" is a redundant phrase. --Jiang 22:00, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Koumintang political party is not redundant. 1) Unless you speak Chinese, it's unlikly you know tang = political party. 2) By ways of your thinking, then strickly speaking the translation would be Koumin political party. Or maybe 'Citizen's Political Party' since that's what the three Chinese words translate to. --NYC 17:53, 10 Apr 2007 (UTC)

The romanizations Syun Yaht-sin and Sun i-hsien receive so few google hits that I don't think they're worth listing. --Jiang 22:18, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've addressed most of the concerns here. Guofu was never removed and remains (though not in pinyin - add it if you want). I would welcome a discussion on which names should or should not be included in the intro. I don't have a problem with keeping all of them, and I certainly think the Wade-Giles Sun I-hsien should be retained, but there may be others which need not be listed here.

General request: For the time being, please do not change the style of the introduction for this article as it is currently the subject of discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style for China-related articles. Thank-you - Madw 01:46, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

As the proposal has not been written into the MoS and is currently the subject of discussion, it should not be implemented here. Link to the page history instead. --Jiang 20:15, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Dose anyone knows his motto before he eliminated the MANCHU EMPIRE? HIS MOTTO WAS "DRIVE OUT THOSE TARTARS,BARBERIANS AND RECOVER CHINA".HERE TARTARS AND BARBERIANS HE MEANT WERE MANCHUS, AND BY SAYING "RECOVER CHINA" HE OBVIOUSLY MEANT MANCHURIA IS NOT CHINA AS WELL AS MANCHUS ARE NOT CHINESE!

Comment by Maximilius:

I believe it was not his motto, more like a ralling call. It was meant to attract recruits who were discontent with the Manchu government. Dr Sun was pro racial unity, as the first flag of Republic of China was the 5-color flag, with Manchu represented as yellow. He, as the first intrim president (with no congress and legislature yet, essentially dictatorship) had alot of say on the flag matter, and if he hated Manchu so much he would pick another flag.

Dr. Sun's US immigration file

Fascinating account of Dr. Sun's US immigration file: [http://www.naatanet.org/separatelivesbrokendreams/sunintro1.html No Such Sun Yat-sen An Archival Success Story] (by Neil L. Thomsen). Needs to be fact-checked, of course. A-giau 23:00, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Should we mentioned him as Dr Sun Yat-sen at the start? He is a qualified doctor and most foreign press refer to him as Dr Sun rather than Mr Sun. Mandel 03:09, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

No...Since when have we inculded salutations in the article? --Jiang 03:55, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think we should, becuase it is a title given to anyone who has graduated from a valid medical school. --Da Vynci 08:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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"PRC sees as potential allies against Taiwan independence. Significantly, a massive picture of Sun now appears in Tiananmen Square" ??!! o my god, the guy in the picture is bloody Mao Zedong, not Sun yat-sen, who is the ignorant person that wrote this sentence ?

Sorry, but your finger is pointed in the wrong direction. The picture of Mao is on Tiananmen Gate, not in Tiananmen Square. Sun's picture is in front of the Monument to the People's Heroes facing Tiananmen, but I think it only appears on national holidays such as May Day and National Day.--Jiang 03:38, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FAC and Peer Review

I'm planning to take this article up for peer review. We need references listed first, however. Can this be done ASAP? thank you Borisblue 4 July 2005 06:13 (UTC)

For my contributions, I used this article as one of my sources.

I don't think the names section should be split - not yet (since the page hasn't reached 32 kb yet). I think some of the information should be included into the biography itself.--Jiang 8 July 2005 10:36 (UTC)

It's not the article length, but the coherence of the article that matters. The names don't quite relate to the article, and shouldn't take up such big space. Deryck C. 02:10, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Picture

Wow, who did that? Deryck C. 00:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Chinese words

It appears that the unicodes on the source of this page were being turned into raw Chinese words. I wonder if wikipedia changed its policy on foreign words? Deryck C. 12:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

In the past Wikipedia does not support "raw" Chinese characters and certain roman letters with diacritics, and pages were displayed as "western". After a recent software upgrade it was changed to unicode. — Instantnood 20:20, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Then I shall go reverting things into Chinese words XD Deryck C. 10:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

image

Why delete this image?

File:Sun yat sen historical trail Hong Kong.jpg

Part of the Sun Yat-sen Historical Trail: Original Site of Yang Yao Ji: Meeting Place for "The Four Bandits", on Gough Street, Central, Hong Kong.

--K.C. Tang 02:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Could we get the picture itself rather than the surroundings? I think it could use some cropping. Specifically, get rid of the lamp post.Borisblue 02:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

is it better? :P --K.C. Tang 12:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Part of the Sun Yat-sen Historical Trail: Original Site of Yang Yao Ji: Meeting Place for "The Four Bandits", on Gough Street, Central, Hong Kong.

good. Deryck C. 13:38:33, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

More pictures

If my understanding of China's copyright law is correct, most of the pictures of Dr. Sun are in public domain. I found several images from the Internet:

• 
  Sun Yat-sen and Chiang Kai-shek
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  Sun Yat-sen visited the University of Hong Kong in 1923
• Sun Yat-sen commemoration in Soviet Union postage stamp
  Sun Yat-sen commemoration in Soviet Union postage stamp
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  Sun Yat-sen and his Military Staff
• Sun Yat-sen and his bride Soong Ching-ling in 1911
  Sun Yat-sen and his bride Soong Ching-ling in 1911
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  Sun Yat-sen arrival in the United States in 1904
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  Chinese Americans remember Sun Yat-sen with a sculpture of him in Chinatown, Los Angeles, California

I took the picture in Los Angeles and prefer that it is added in the article, ;-), but I will leave the decision to you guys on what to add. --Vsion 03:59, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

You may add it yourself if you find suitable ^_^ Deryck C. 07:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Posting here is also OK, if readers know there are so many additional reference materials.--TP20226 11:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Multi-lingual?

Does anyone know precisely which languages Sun spoke? Apart from the obvious Mandarin, Hakka and English, he seemed (from my limited knowledge) to speak several other dialects, possibly Japanese and some other foreign languages. Confirmation please?203.70.105.176 18:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe Dr. Sun also was proficient in German. If you visit his home in Shanghai you will see a huge library of Scientific German books. I think the curator told me he could read (and possibly speak) German. This was common for people of the Sciences in those days because German was the language of Science during that time.

Sun speaks Japanese, yes. Sun also speaks standard Cantonese and a certain number of other Cantonese dialects. --Deryck C. 15:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

''When can Hakkese stop those BS? Sun is Cantonese and speak Cantonese as first language. Hakkese was not even accepted as Chinese until modern time.

You stop your BS! Hakkas have always been Chinese, and Han Chinese at that. Linguistic studies have postulated that spoken Hakka is closer to spoken ancient Chinese and Court Chinese than any other current Chinese dialect. Hakkas have over the years earned the distinction of being the 'Guan' or 'Official/Officer' class. Chinatowns in the US and Canada have many dialects of Chinese spoken in them, although the London Chinatown until the recent influx of Fujianese refugees was a Hakka town. The Hakkas, unilke the Punti Cantonese are multi-lingual. It is very common for Hakkas to speak perfect Punti Cantonese, whereas it is very rare that a Punti Cantonese could speak Hakka; so a Punti meeting a Hakka would not know that he was meeting a Hakka. Dr Sun is from a Hakka family, so its no wonder that he could speak Zhongshanese as well as Guangzhouese (Punti Cantonese). The Hakkas have given China many leaders, both in politics and the military. Could you name one historically famous Punti political or military leader? 81.155.100.190 22:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hakkas speak many other Chinese dialects as joint-first languages. This isn't difficult for the Hakkas, but it is for the Punti Cantonese people. Take the Punti Hongkongese, they can't even speak reasonable Putonghua badly! Of course Dr Sun is Cantonese, he is a Hakka Cantonese but not a Punti Cantonese. A Jew in Britain is still British, although he can't be said to be Anglo-Saxon British. 81.155.100.190 22:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Any body had been to chinatowns in USA and Canada should know they don't speak Hakkaese. If DR Sun were Hakkaese, not only nobody understood him, due to the deep hatred between these two groups, he should have been beatened to death thousand times.''

That's because the Hakkas are multi-lingual and don't have to speak Hakka in public. Hakkas prefer to use their brains and not their fists. They certainly don't need to revert to bullyboy tactics of the Puntis as described above, presumably by a Punti person. It just shows what Punti culture stands for. The Hakkas do not hate Puntis; Hakkas believe all Chinese, be they from North, South, East or West, Han or non-Han are equally Chinese, so it is no wonder that many Chinese leaders inside and outside of China are Hakkas.81.155.100.190 22:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

???????, ?????, ????"???"?? ????, ???????????????????--FLYINGDOG 11:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hakkas fight with their brains, so insulting them by calling them pumpkins won't get you anywhere, as the Hakkas are so cool. It is widely acknowledged the Hakkas have given China so many leaders that it is disproportionate to their population. Why don't you name one famous Punti Cantonese Chinese leader for us? 81.155.100.190 22:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Dr Sun is Hakka, They are so many sources to prove it. He had even made a speech in Hakka and speak fuently in Hakka. Hakka is probably the original chinese. He is Not "????".

There is no Hakka in the area. During the Taipeng Revolution, there was a twelve year long ethnic cleansing type war between Cantonese and Hakka. As a consequence, there is no Hakka in the Pearl River Delta. Dr. Sun can't be Hakka.

BS! Dr Sun came from a Hakka family, as had Deng Xiaoping and Marshalls Zhu De and Ye Jianyin. Come on name one famous Punti Cantonese Chinese leader! You can't as there ain't one! 81.155.100.190 22:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

With their unique language, custom, and physical feature that are obviously different to other Chinese, it take more than "My mama said so" to convince me that Hakka is the original Chinese. The origin of Cantonese is clearly written in Chinese history that is not the same case as in Hakka.

Different customs, physical features etc, unique language, what do you mean? The person who wrote Hakka was the original Chinese meant that the spoken Hakka language is closer to the theoretical old spoken Chinese language than other current Chinese dialects. The original Cantonese (Yue) (over 2000 years ago) were South-East Asian in physical traits, ie dark, short, small-framed, thicker lips, small-faced with protruding front jaws and protruding teeth, small flat noses, traits which are still found in the Vietnamese and Southern Chinese people (ie the Yue people), and which you can still see in some so called local (Punti) Cantonese people. These people were inter-married with the invading Han people (from which the Hakka originate), and their spoken language then became Sinitic, and different physical features emerged in the population. 81.155.100.190 22:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

"With their unique language, custom, and physical feature that are obviously different to other Chinese,". Presumably by other Chinese, you mean the Punti Cantonese, who are descended from the non-Han Yues (or Viets). Looking at the picture of Dr Sun posted here, you can see that he had quite fair skin, fairly thin lips and higher nose, features that are different from a typical Yue (Viet), who is darker skinned, small faced with small and flatter nose, and protruding teeth and jaws. Dr Sun certainly does not look like a Yue punti Cantonese. Thanks for pointing this out. 81.159.80.210 22:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Kejia simply refers to people who immigrated to the coastal regions with relocation money from the Qing government, not some particular lineage of Chinese people. In fact there's overlap in the ancestry between some Guandong and Kejia people. --BenjaminTsai ^Talk 05:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

There is overlap in ancestry between much of the Chinese people. There was a distinction between North and South, but go down South now and you see the southern guys with their arms round the northern girls. Many of the originals ancestral Yues (Punti 'Cantonese') moved to what's today's Vietnam. The Yues (so called Punti 'Cantonese') trace their ancestry to the non-Han Yue, whereas the Hakkas trace their ancestry to Hans. 81.155.100.190 21:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It's trustible to say that he knows Hakkese, because he ruled Guangdong for a long time such that he should know all the major languages here in order to rule with convincing power. --Deryck C. 06:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

No!!! Good or perfect pitch in Chinese dialects have to be acquired in childhood, otherwise the accents from adult learners would give the person's origins away. Dr Sun also spoke in Mandarin, but the sound of his recordings showed that he was not a native Mandarin speaker. There is no motivation for Punti Cantonese people to acquire their Hakka neighbour's language, so whether Dr Sun was the ruler or not would not make a difference in his linguistic abilities. Dr Sun was a Hakka, and that's the fact. Following your argument, present Chinese leaders must speak all Chinese dialects as well as non-Han languages, which is certainly not the case. 81.155.100.190 21:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The Hakkas in Guangdong are Cantonese in the same way that Jews born in Britain are still British even though they come from Jewish families and do not speak Hebrew. Would you say Carnegie was Scottish or American? Because the Hakka Cantonese are more successful than Punti Cantonese in almost everything, the Puntis are jealous. Instead of jealousy, the Puntis should strive to achieve success through hard work, as is the motto of the Hakka. 81.155.100.190 22:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Teowchiu people are also Cantonese as Teowchiu is in Canton (Guangdong) Province, but they speak Teowchiu. 81.155.100.190 22:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The confusion of 'Cantonese' arises in English because it refers both to 'Guangdongese' (the province) and 'Guangzhouese' (the capital city within Guangdong). In the original Chinese, Dr Sun is a 'Guangdong Ren' ie a person from Guangdong Province; it did not imply what dialect he and his family spoke. He has never been referred to as 'Guangzhou Ren'- which could also be rendered into English as 'Cantonese'. Punti Cantonese speech is incorrectly referred to as Guangdongese in places outside of China, eg Hong Kong, Singapore, Europe, America, etc, when in fact what was meant is 'Guangzhouese' (the speech of Guangzhou). Indeed in the PRC's public broadcasts, Punti Cantonese is correctly called Guangzhouese and not Guangdongese. Dr Sun was a Guangdongese (but not a Guangzhouese) from a Hakka family, who also as expected spoke Guangzhouese. 22:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.100.190 (talk)

Image:Sun Yat Sen family.jpg

This image has the description "Yat-sen himself is back row, fifth from left." This is slightly confusing since, due to the section title being "Early years", I expected to read that he was one of the children in the front row. Shawnc 20:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Protect, may be?

This article is recently vandalized frequently (more than daily), all by anonymous users. Since most contributors to this articles so far are logged-in useres, I wonder if we should ask an admin to protect this page from edition by anonymous users. Please voice your opinion. Deryck C. 18:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Either that or at least semi-protection. I am sick of anonymous users vandalizing uselessly—they must have a lot of time of their hands to do so, in that matter. But anyway, yes, I agree. —Mirlen 21:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

So can you fetch an admin? Deryck C. 06:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

How? I only joined last year in December. I'm still pretty new...I would if I could. Hm, isn't their any page or discussion place where we could request protection. —Mirlen 00:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm now finding some admin that I'm familiar with. Deryck C. 05:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I've semi-protected it, based on a quick review of the history. Please let me know when you would like the protection lifted; remember that protection should be used as sparingly as possible. For future reference, you can request page protection at WP:RfPP. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 22:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Deryck C. 02:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've unprotected this. This just doesn't rise to the level needing protection; this article averages less than an edit per day, and WP:SEMI is explicitly not to be used to prohibit anon editing in general. This can be easily handled with simple reverts, and they don't need to be done very often. It's a m:Foundation issue that anons can (and will continue to) edit, and the approval of WP:SEMI was hinged on it not being used to get rid of them. I'll add it to my watchlist, though. -Splash^talk 23:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Sun Yat Fat is a demon to China. He overthrow Qing and Yuan again and agian with the money support from Japanese or russia. None of your fellows have any comment on this. Depise your liars.

The table/chart at the bottom

It's located right at the bottom under 'External Links'. It's is a tad bit confusing, perhaps a header of some sort would help clear confusion. I'd do it myself if I just knew what it was.. - torpy 14:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Article status

Just a fair warning, there's been some discussions on the GA criteria page (here) about the criteria, and we seem to be nearly done deciding that internal citations are necessary, so this article will need to change it's references to inline, unless they are already, but I can't tell because their just numbered with no hyperlink :/. Homestarmy 13:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Cantonese or Hakka?

The commonly accepted orthodoxy is that he was Cantonese, but an anonymous user has been inserting Hakka into the article without references or so much as a comment. This is not only bad edit practice, it's extremely rude. InfernoXV 18:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with InfernoXV - most history books e.g the Canfonian Classics series about Sun Yat Sen did at least mention that he was a Cantonese. While there is room for debate about this of which I'm not in the least interested to start, in fairness, it's good practice to back up their claims with reliable sources for the benefit of all users. Have a look at the 'multi-lingual' section of this talk page and see how disorderly this issue of ' is he Cantonese or Hakka?' has descended into. To convince anyone, show credible evidence and proof as words alone don't carry much weight in today's educated society. Arthur Oon 13:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course Dr Sun was Cantonese; he was a Hakka Cantonese but not a Punti Cantonese. The English term Cantonese referred to anyone from the Chinese province of Canton (Guangdong). The Puntis have hijacked the term Cantonese to use it to mean Punti. The correct way of describing Dr Sun is that he was a Cantonese who came from a Hakka family or it could be shortened to Hakka Cantonese in the same manner as Jewish American to describe an American from a Jewish family. 81.155.100.190 23:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. Cantonese means someone whose ancestors are from Canton, and not from somewhere else, like the Hakkas. The English term 'Cantonese' does not mean merely someone from Canton province.InfernoXV 04:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

You are talking garbage InfernoXV. All human ancestors walked out of Africa, so you have to call a 'Cantonese' an African. Take a look at Americans, they can be White, Black, Yellow, Red or any other colour. 'Canton' is the English transliteration of 'Guangdong Province'; a Cantonese is anyone from Guangdong, and that include Hakkas and Teowchius. 'Canton' is also the English transliteration of 'Guangzhou' (Canton City) the capital of Guangdong. The Punti Cantonese have hijacked the term Cantonese to mean a Punti Cantonese. This is just chauvinism. Puntis use the word 'Cantonese' in both Chinese and English to mean the spoken language of the Punti (Guangzhouese rather than Guangdongese), this is incorrect, as the correct technical term for the spoken language of the Puntis is 'Yue'. Guangdong itself is a relatively recent entity. The English took the cue for 'Cantonese' from Hong Kong people in which 'Cantonese' is referred to as 'Guangdongese' ie the language of the whole province of Guangdong. In China 'Cantonese' is referred to as 'Guangzhouese' ie the speech of the city Guangzhou. The ancestors of the Puntis were in fact not Han but 'Yue' otherwise known as 'Viet' who were also the ancestors of the modern Vietnamese. As these non-Han ancestors of the modern Punti intermarried the invading Hans or Chinese, their descendants became Chinese. The modern Vietnamese have retained the physical traits of their Yue ancestors. And to clarify it all, spoken Guangzhouese, Zhongshanese and Toishanese are as different from each other as they are to spoken Guangdong-Hakka, and are not mutually intelligible without familiarisation. Indeed although spoken Hongkong Cantonese and Guangzhouese are mutually intelligible, they are different in that the pronunciation of words is shifted by one tone between the 2 varieties. And to finish, Dr Sun came from a Hakka family and was therefore a Hakka, although of course he was a 'Cantonese' as well. BTW his wife was also a Hakka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.100.190 (talk) 19:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

mind of sun yat-sen

moved from main article, pending reorganization:

The Mind Of Sun Yat Sen

Sun Yat Sen’s three principles of the people Nationalism, Democracy, and Livelihood sought to educate Chinese on what were the concerns of a sovereign nation state. A sovereign nation state defends herself against colonialism ,globalization. In Sun’s speeches on nationalism , Sun went into detail on how China was not sovereign. China was a mere sub colony; she did not control her commerce, and trade. The treaty powers dictated what was China’s economic policy. China could not impose protectionist measures to build up her economy. The Treaty powers controlled nearly every aspect of China’s economy if it was not that , foreign companies had a vast monopoly in the vitals for a national economy. China had rail roads alright , but they were controlled by foreigners, the water ways were dominated by the treaty powers, China had tariffs alright but, the treaty powers determined the rate of the tariffs, and they also collected the tariffs. The Banking situation was so bad in China that Chinese paid to deposit money in foreign banks. If a nations can not regulate her banking, trade, and commerce , that nation is more than under political oppression, but economic oppression. Countries in China’s position were the pawns of stronger nations. During WW1 many colonies of Europe fought in WW1, but this was not voluntarily , sometimes the treaty powers would go so far as to make deals with the weaker nations , case point England permitting Yuan Shih Kai to become emperor of China if he made China fight along side the French and British. This did not happen because Yuan died. The British did how ever get north China to fight in WW1 , but south China was under the control of Sun Yat Sen. In 1917 Sun Yat Sen was visited by A British General , the British general endeavored to persuade Sun Yat Sen to enter WW1, Sun would then respond by conveying to the general that China should seek to get back the territories that were the biggest. The British, had taken Burma, Hong Kong, the French had Shanghai, The Portugal had Macao, the Japanese had Taiwan, and Germany had Tsingtao, but Sun was not done yet, he then told the British General that the British have their eye on Tibet. A Nationalist like Sun would not allow for China to be inferior to the treaty powers instead China would take its place a nation that endeavored to participate in building nations.

In Sun’s Democracy speeches , he conveyed on what type of Government China should have. Instead of China having weak governments like European parliamentary systems that were controlled by Private independent Central Banks, and governments that did have adequate checks and balances, China would have a government that was capable of dealing with a wide array of dilemmas. In essence, Sun wanted to insure that government had the powers to fulfill it’s stated task ;hence Sun Yat Sen did want a Lao Tzu anarchy or laissez faire being the policy of government.

Now in Sun’s speeches on livelihood one of the speeches has Sun Yat Sen pointing out on how Karl Marx did not know where surplus value came from. Sun described how the level of creativity in man made it possible for an economy to function, advanced forms of transportation, advanced forms of power, advanced forms of farming , and more advanced machinery . The last two speeches of Sun on the People’s livelihood dealt with how China would create her own textile industry, and agriculture. Protective tariffs would contribute to fostering China’s textile industry. In fact in all three sections of the three principles of the people Sun speaks about the importance of protective tariffs. During Sun’s speech on Agriculture Sun spoke 7 things that needs to be done to improve agriculture in China, introducing machinery, fertilizer, strategically planting crops, via rotation , introducing pesticides, creating methods to store food, improving mode of transport, by building roads, , creating canals waterways, and rail roads, and lastly being able to handle national disasters like floods.

Sun Yat Sen’s thinking is more aligned with American system of Politicial economy advocates, Alexander Hamilton, Henry Carey, Friedrich List,FDR , and LYndon LaRouche than advocates of free trade and that man is a beast like Charles Darwin, the economists Thomas Malthus , and Adam Smith. Sun’s economic policy is not based on man and his self interest seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, but on benevolence. Adam Smith and today’s advocates of globalization do not want Government fostering enterprises, instead such enterprises will come about through Laissez faire, this is what Adam Smith conveyed in his Wealth of Nations. On August 16 1924 Sun gave a speech in which he conveyed what was the purpose of a national bank. Sun’s conception of a national Bank was Hamiltonian. Therefore the chief task of the National Bank a corporation erected the federal government was to foster economic development. Sun knew that man did not progress the way beasts do survival of the fittest. Further more Sun served as a testament to the sermon on the mount Matthew 5:15. here Jesus conveys the idea that man honors the lord in heaven by being the benefactor of all . The glory of the lord is not expressed by merciless competition. This sinister policy, of the world is flat ,Cosmopolitan is not intended to benefit civilization.

Sun Yat Sen and the British after WW1 Sun Yat Sen wrote a book called the international development of China, the main policy of this book was that Sun was calling for the West to retool their industries so that they could develop China. The United States was the first state to do this but that did not happen until the presidency of Franklin D Roosevelt. Sun Yat Sen forecasted that their would be a War bigger than WW1, but the most shocking thing of all said by Sun Yat Sen was that the British would no longer be able to arrange for the down fall of the strongest European power, instead England would have to make that nation do her bidding .The country that did this was Germany under a Fascist government financed by Wall street and England . Sun Yat Sen also knew that the British never had permanent allies only self interests. The British also pursued this policy in Asia via using Japan, which had been serving British policy in Asia since Sino Japanese War.

by Neil Martin to blue shirts you did not write this Why are you taking credit for this ?

Solid Evidence on Sun Yat-sen expelled out of Japan needed

It says here that Sun Yat-sen was actually kicked out of Japan, but I can't find a solid evidence for that anywhere. It is a quite strange thing because he actually somewhat adapted a Japanese name and liked Japan and had many Japanese supporters there. Can anyone find a reference on this?

Paragraph about the names

I just wonder what happened to the section about Sun's names. There is a main article, but it doesn't mean the section here could be blank. --Deryck C. 12:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Woodcutter?

Question: Would ??? not be better translated "Woodpecker" than "Woodcutter —The preceding unsigned comment was added by YoungJP (talk • contribs) 20:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

WikiProject Hong Kong

Why is this article HK related? It should China or Taiwan or maybe Asia. --NYC 17:18 28, March 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.185.151.219 (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Because Sun Yat-sen lived in Hong Kong for a significant amount of time. Sun spend his high school and university years in Hong Kong. Moreover, during the days he organized the revolutions, Sun often took Hong Kong as refuge. Nevertheless, Sun is also China and Taiwan related. --Deryck C. 11:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sun's influence

In the 2nd paragraph, it states,

Sun's chief legacy resides in his developing a political philosophy known as the Three Principles of the People (nationalism, democracy, and the people's livelihood/welfare), which still influence Chinese government today.

Since the world recognize Chinese government as China not Taiwan, this sentence should be changed. KMT, a political party existing only in Taiwan is co-founded by Sun and the Three Principle of the People can be thought as the consitution of Taiwan. In China, he's mostly recognized as the father of the country. His idealogy has little influence there. This should be obvious since one of the 3 principles is democracy which we known doesn't exist in China. --NYC 17:28 28, March 2007 (UTC)

Topic sentence

The current topic sentence gives two Chinese names of Sun. However I believe the first one is redundant owing to the presence of the "names" table on the right. We should only provide the Chinese name (the second one currently on the article) which the transliteration "Yat-sen" is derived from. --Deryck C. 11:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, Jiang has removed all those stuff. --Deryck C. 08:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Importance

I don't even know why this is part of WikiProject Taiwan, but the importance certainly should not be top or high. Sun Yat-sen has a great impact on the KMT, which is a political party in Taiwan, and possibly on the ROC government. However, he had never been to Taiwan and therefore had no or few impact on the Taiwanese people. I mean if there was a WikiProject ROC, it would be high importance, but I believe that WikiProject Taiwan doesn't focus on the ROC government.--Jerrypp772000 20:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I clearly see your point, but your point is rater invalid because your unaware of some facts. First of all, Sun Yat-sen have been to Taiwan four times, the first time being in 1900 to advocate the anti-Manchu stream and to prepare for the First Guangzhou Uprising (he personally established the revolutionary centre in Taiwan). Second time in 1913 after the failure in Constitutional Protection War to regroup, the third time in 1918 after the failure in Guangdong revolution and the fourth time in 1924, an insignificant visit.

Please note that the WikiProject Taiwan includes all Taiwan-related topics (not just topics specifically about Taiwan island). Sun Yat-sen's status in Taiwan is still "National Father", and his philosophy "Three Principles of People" is still required to be taught in all universities and most of the high schools in Taiwan. His face is still in the 100 dollar bill currecy of Taiwan, and he is the founder of the Republic of China, which is the only sovereign government that currently resides in Taiwan. His impact on Taiwan should be unquestionable.

I have re-assessed this article as high importance (not top importance because it would be then leaning against WP:NPOV). If you have further comments, feel free to post it. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 02:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

My reversion

I've mass-reverted this article to the version dated 2007-04-07T09:13:46 by User:Ozone. A few diffs show that the later edits, if not simple vandalism that were further reverted, were previously outruled POV-edits or unspotted content vandalism. --Deryck C. 14:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

Due to the lack of inline references, I have listed this article for delisting at [1]. Please try and add some references in order to prevent the delisting, as the article is otherwise quite good.Zeus1234 02:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

By a vote of 5-0, the GA status of this article has been delisted for failure to meet GA criteria. The full review can be seen here. Once issues have been addressed and the article is brought up to standards, it can be renominated. Thank you for your work so far, and good luck with future edits.

Regards, LaraLove^T/_C 06:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Sun Yixian

I think the title of this article should be changed to Sun Yixian to correctly address the Mandarin Pinyin, instead of Cantonese romanization (also since Pinyin is more formally used, and romanization of Cantonese is not (as much, at least)). Sorry if there has been previous discussion about this. <3 bunny 17:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

we use the most common english name in english wikipedia. See here. Blueshirts 22:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sun Yat-sen/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

(removed)

Last edited at 04:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Sun was Christian?

I think it is an Americanist claim, please source it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.8.89.36 (talk) 15:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of documentation at this site that is already listed in the links section. Dr. Sun Yat-Sen Foundation of Hawaii A virtual library on Dr. Sun in Hawaii including sources for six visits.Brian0324 17:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dr Sun Yat-sen Museum in Hong Kong presents a register book. The book recorded that Sun Yat-sen (孫日新) became a Christian in congregational church. — HenryLi (Talk) 15:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The article currently includes this phrase "Sun Yat-sen was flirting with the cult of the Ethnic European Western Orientalism Christianity". Now is that someone who doesn't want to say Sun Yat-sen was investigating the Christian faith OR is there really a cult called "Ethnic European Western Orientalism Christianity" (which phrase in itself makes no sense to me)? What's it supposed to mean? Pbhj (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

most likely a bad translation in grammar from chinese to english.68.160.243.200 (talk) 18:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Independence of Kwangtung Province

In Sun Yat-sen Museum in Hong Kong, there is a picture with brief description that Sun Yat-sen, Li Hung-chang (李鴻章), and the Governor of Hong Kong met at probably Canton to discussion for the independence of Kwangtung Province. Can anyone add the details of this part of history? --— HenryLi (Talk) 05:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"Sun", "Yat-sen" or "Sun Yat-sen"?

Being "Sun" a family name, and "Yat-sen" a given name, how should Sun Yat-sen be named in the text? We have "Sun" everywhere there. Shouldn't it be "Yat-sen" if we want to use his given name only, or even the full "Sun Yat-sen" everywhere, if we want to maintain the Chinese formality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.222.64.96 (talk) 14:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to use his given name by itself; this is even more rare in formal Chinese than it is in formal English. Using the last name by itself is fine; this is the normal usage in such cases as "Mao". I suggest varying between "Sun" and "Sun Yat-sen".—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Cantonese or Hakka?

Actually Sun Yat Sen is a Cantonese because Sun Yat Sen stated it himself in his speech. Also his relatives as well said they were cantonese whose ancestors migrated from Dongguan [mainly Cantonese] to Zhongshan during the Ming Dynasty. Check this article: http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/22808296.html

This is a one-sided article. His only son, Sun Fo, former Premier of ROC, stated that Sun family is Hakka. This is also stated by his granddaughter who is the representative of the Sun family now.

早年曾隨侍中山先生革命多年的北伐、抗日名將薛岳將軍，他告訴台灣著 名客屬研究專家謝福健先生說：中山先生自己說過，他原籍在紫金縣，是 東江客家人。孫陳淑英夫人也曾在謝先生著作中親簽：“先翁是客家人， 老家在紫金”等字樣。特別難能可貴的是中山先生本人也曾說過自己是 客家人，承認客家淵源。據楊慶平先生著《孫中山的家世與客屬淵源》 一文載：“有日孫中山在大元帥府接見到訪客家人，對國家大事多有談及， 並蒙先生多作指示，無不表示敬佩，臨別前有一位客家人對孫中山先生說：‘中山 先生，您是客家人？’中山先生肯定地答：‘是，是！’在座陪客 都滿懷疑惑。其中有廣府人直言對孫中山先生說：‘中山先生，你明明是 廣府人，為何說是客家人？’孫先生很和藹地對他們說：‘我們都是中國 人，而且在革命時期，要通力合作，他們說我是客家人乃指祖先是客家人’ 。他們聽了啞口無言，由此也可見孫先生的偉大胸懷。”Soccer174 (talk) 09:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is in Category:Hakka people, but Hakka is not mentioned in the article. That's lame. If he is from a Hakka family, let's mention that in the article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree, his ancestry should be stated in there because his descendants stated. --Visik (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Sun Yatsen and the 2 most prominent members of the Sun family: Sun Fo, his son, and 孙穗芳, his granddaughter, have stated clearly that they are Hakkas.

I have added this link to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soccer174 (talk • contribs) 09:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC) 浓浓乡情系中原—访孙中山先生孙女孙穗芳博士 - 我的祖父是客家人 http://www.chinanews.com.cn/n/2003-12-04/26/376869.html “我的祖父是客家人，唯唯客家，系出中原。世界客属文化中心在郑东经济开发区奠基、建造，我将在文化中心内为祖父立一座铜像，宣扬客家精神。”孙中山先生孙女孙穗芳博士，在接受记者采访时动情地说。 　　今年已六十八岁的孙穗芳博士，现任美国孙中山和平教育基金会主席、夏威夷中国妇女慈善总会会长、夏威夷太平洋大学校董等职。十月份，世界客属第十八届恳亲大会在河南郑州召开期间，孙穗芳博士因为有事未能及时参加。十一月二十三日，应河南省客家联谊会会长林雪梅的邀请，她专程携慈善界、企业界人士等一行八人前到中原祖根地寻根拜祖，考察访问。 　　作为客家人的后裔，孙博士在对祖根地进行为期十天的考察访问期间，浓浓乡情溢于言表。此间，孙博士到祖上出生地开封陈留追祖探源，到河洛口、黄河探寻源远流长的中原文化，参观了巩义“神堤”、登封少林寺、洛阳关林庙，并到新郑皇帝故里寻根拜祖、缅怀始祖功德。 　　在洛阳华侨中学等参观地，孙博士还慷慨解囊，捐资助学。以孙博士为首的考察团一行已与河南有关部门达成协议，将洛阳华侨学校更名为中山华侨学校，在开封陈留建立一座孙中山纪念堂，在洛阳建立客家始祖地公园。孙博士将在这两地和世界客属第十八届恳亲大会期间奠基的世界客属文化中心分别为祖父孙中山立三座铜像，激励中原儿女发扬以孙中山等为优秀代表的客家先民们“开拓进取，爱国爱乡”的精神，为“振兴中华”而贡献力量。 　　“中原是中华民族文化的发源地，也是客家人的祖根地，到祖根地、孕育华夏文明的黄河岸边、到轩辕皇帝故里，寻根拜祖，内心很激动。中原儿女都很重视文化，也很积极地追忆历史，给我留下了深刻的印象。”一直致力于研究、宏扬孙中山思想,满腔热情在世界各地演讲、讲学，在华人华侨界颇具影响的孙穗芳博士欣慰地对记者说。 　　孙穗芳博士表示，她将广泛宣传中原悠久灿烂的文化和经济社会发展所取得的成就，介绍更多的海外华侨华人到中原故里寻根拜祖、投资兴业。 　　在即将结束考察访问离开中原之际，孙穗芳博士欣然提笔，饱蘸深情写下了“中原情，客家根”、“锦绣中华”十个大字。

编辑:赵莉 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soccer174 (talk • contribs) 09:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Never can Punti and Hakka convince each other. There are always counter-evidences from each side. --— HenryLi (Talk) 18:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hakka people have migrated over the years to southern China and merged into Guangdong's northern prefecture culture. Sun Yat-sen is what you would call a Hakka Cantonese. Cantonese people are the punti. He is of Hakka ancestry as well as Guangdong because he was born there. So it should be stated in the article maybe under the Early years section and also the category section of the article.--Visik (talk) 07:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait...Dr. Sun was a US Citizen?!?

"In 1904 his alleged birth in Hawaii was certified. As a consequence, he was automatically declared a citizen of the United States and was issued an American passport." What!?!? It all makes sense, till the point that he traveled with a US Passport?! So the founding father of ROC (the PRC doesn't hate him either) was in fact a US Citizen who traveled with a US Passport?! Someone please produce some RS on that, otherwise, the "passport part" is not gonna last. Also, I am adding a "CN Tag" on that. TheAsianGURU (talk) 07:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC) PS: Again, I am not aganst the idea that he might had been a citizen, just the fact that he was issued a passport & used the passport. TheAsianGURU (talk) 07:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a fake edit by 85.179.138.189. Benjwong (talk) 05:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I had removed statements claiming that he was certified born in Hawaii. There is a link in the External Links section stating that Sun Yat-sen assumed US citizenship in 1904 for protection because of his revolutionary activities. At that time, Chinese Exclusion Act prevented Chinese people to be naturalized as US citizens, so the only access to US citizenship was by birth. Sun Yat-sen probably obtained a birth certificate illicitly to apply for citizenship. Nevertheless, I believe that it is beyond doubt that he was born in China. --Joshua ^{Say "hi" to me!}_{What I've done?} 18:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that it was "illicit" so much as that Hawaii birth certificates were apparently obtainable even if one were not actually born there. I don't know the legal details of it, but I get the impression that his obtaining this document was legal, even if it represented a lie as to his place of birth. LordAmeth (talk) 02:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

He also had an American God-son, the literary renowned eccentric Paul Linebarger a.k.a Cordwainer Smith. Should this be mentioned under family? (Tetris11) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.66.211 (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay... why does the edit and the link to his american god-son keep getting deleted? Its valid, people. No need to get nationalistic...(Tetris11)--82.43.66.211 (talk) 20:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Adding a filled out in-line citation to a reliable third-party source might keep it in longer.

I did clarify that during his first visit to the Hawaiian islands it was not part of the USA but an independent country with Kalākaua as King. As stated above the bogus passport was to avoid being deported after the annexation of 1898 when the stricter US laws applied. W Nowicki (talk) 22:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC) 71.202.24.202 (talk) He was indeed a US citizen and there is documentary evidence of this in the San Francisco archives. Whether or not he lied about his birthplace is not clear. —Preceding undated comment added 20:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC).

Sun was born after he died?

Born: 12 November 1999(1999-11-12) or 24 November 1932(1932-11-24) Xiangshan, Empire of Great Qing of China or Kingdom of Hawaii

Died: 12 March 1925 (aged 58) or 12 March 1925 (aged 54) Beijing, Republic of China

Someone fix it, please. --125.237.102.237 (talk) 09:21, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition: I am pretty sure that he died in Tianjin or at least on the train from Tianjin to Beijing and not in the Hospital at Beijing. Can somebody give a source to the Beijing Hospital death statement? 60.28.43.134 (talk) 08:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Sun Zhongshan

Shouldn't the name he's generally known by in Chinese areas be highlighted at the very beginning of the article?

Xihe (talk) 14:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Pinyin version of Sun's name is wrong?

I'm not a Chinese linguist, but I'm pretty sure the Pinyin for Sun's name is Sun Zhongshan (111), not Sun Yixian as it's currently listed. This is my first time posting here. Sorry if this is the wrong place for this critique.

Cheers,

Will

Wmtracy (talk) 15:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The Yixian spelling comes from another form, 孫逸仙, which is apparently the name he used for Europe and the United States. Yixian -> Yat-sen, which is why that name is used for the initial Pinyin rather than Zhongshan. -Multivariable (talk) 17:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Zhongshan?

The article makes mention that he is most commonly known in Mandarin as "Zhongshan," not as Yixian, the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters for Yat-Sen. But the article offers no explanation why this is so. When, how, and why did Yat-Sen (Yixian) become Middle Mountain? Is this a posthumous name? A courtesy name? Some other kind of alternative name within the Chinese naming tradition? LordAmeth (talk) 02:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Zhongshan is the Chinese pronunciation of the Japanese surname Nakayama. According to Harold Schiffrin (Sun Yat-sen and the Origins of the Chinese Revolution, 148), Sun adopted this pseudonym in Japan in 1897, when he was persona non grata in both China and Hong Kong. The article actually does mention this, but it's not put very clearly. Rgr09 (talk) 09:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Yeah, the article is really not clear on that. Thanks for taking the time to explain it for me. LordAmeth (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The Names of Sun Yat-sen article is now improved. User Rgr09 is correct anyhow. Benjwong (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Birth controversy

The hawaii birth certification was moved out to a separate controversy section. There are still many sources that does not mention this event, and do not count it at all. The sources used are still not that great. For other political reasons this is still a controversy. Benjwong (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Whether it's a controversy or not, we shouldn't put it in a separate section when it can be integrated with the rest of the History section. If it's controversial, you can just say so in the History section. In general, wp:criticism sections and equivalent are discouraged since they often grow disproportionately to the rest of the article, and are not neutral. Laurent (talk) 02:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia hates America. Sun Yat-sen is America's most prized son, let the US have its time in the sun. Do you really think China could have produced such an intelligent and proactive man? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.34.188.228 (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Aloha! I reworked a number of references to Sun Yat-Sen's Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth, including an image of the certificate from scribd.com, & discussion & notations about it in his immigration file in the U.S. National Archives. While I think that he was probably was born in China & not Hawaii, it is clear that Dr. Sun spent significant portions of his life in Hawaii when it was a Kingdom, a Republic, & a territory of the United States. It appears that the Certificate of Life Birth, fabricated or not, provided a means form him to enter the United States as a U.S. citizen while he was a wanted man in China. If nothing else, this is an important part of his story. Peaceray (talk) 02:47, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

The claim that Sun was born in Hawaii has been repeatedly added and deleted from the article over the last few years. This claim should be removed. There are half a dozen biographies of Sun available, and this incident of 1904 is dealt with in several of them; see for example Lyon Sharman, Sun Yat-sen: His life and its meaning (Stanford: Stanford UP, 1968), pp. 79-80, or Harold Schiffrin, Sun Yat-sen and the origins of the Chinese revolution (Berkeley: U of California P, 1970), pp. 327-328. In both of these books, which are well-known and reliable sources for Sun's life, Sun's reasons for lying about his birthplace in 1904 are clearly described. If the claim that Sun was born in Hawaii is to be inserted in the article in any other way than as a case of Sun lying, in order to get around the harsh immigration laws of the time, there must be a source for this claim. The NARA pdf file of the INS investigation of this claim, which was previously cited in a footnote in the article that has disappeared, is a very amusing document, riddled with outrageously false descriptions of Sun's background and activities, but it is not a reliable source for the factual basis of Sun's life. He lied, plain and simple, and his published biographies explicitly state that he lied. You must first find a reliable, published source who says he didn't lie before you write in the article that there is some sort of controversy or dispute over his birthplace. This will not be easy; the birth certificate based on this lie says that Sun was born in 1870! This makes a hash out of most of his early life: he finishes high school at 12, gets married at 14, enters medical training school at 16, etc., etc. Rgr09 (talk) 07:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I had removed it last time with this edit here a while back. People sometimes don't realize the value of secondary sources. Primary sources should used scarcely (maybe to quote something), since any concluding remarks about it is personal analysis, which is not supported by the sources itself. I think it's disruptive after a while. It should be reverted aggressively in my opinion and replaced by information backed by secondary sources. Writing that "he was born on this date in this place" cited to a primary source (a document) would be making own conclusions. Although writing that "this document states that he was born on this date and at this place" would be somewhat correct, which is why I haven't removed the the primary references completely altogether, but moved it to another spot... but it's still undesirable to me. I also don't get why people use things at Scribd to cite things, since it is iffy at best due to the obscure origin of the source (but that's beside the point).... --Cold Season (talk) 22:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

@ User:Taichi101... Well, still not responding... The mentioning of the Hawaii birth certificate or whatever in the "early life" section is undue especially since it purposely ignores the whole picture, only to serve as original research, unsupported by reliable secondary sources. It is clearly explained what it is about in the "Heaven and earth society, overseas travel" section (which btw makes any claim that I plainly removed something incorrect, so let's get that straight) about circumventing the US Chinese Exclusion Act. The former is plainly original research by giving due what's undue while not actually providing (the-already-existing) points in a section wholly-unrelated. --Cold Season (talk) 10:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I find this blatant statement of disregarding the talk page uncooperative and just ridiculous, despite being reverted by several fellow users and pointed here. --Cold Season (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The point is contentious. That it is contentious is clearly indicated. If you wish, add the claim that Sun lied and provide appropriate references that do not violate your own standards for citation. But it is factual that primary and secondary sources raise the issue. To cite other sources casting doubt upon the Hawaiian birth claims is fair. To cite other sources explaining that he lied is fair. But to delete factual information pertaining to claims that he (a) was issued a Hawaiian birth certificate, (b) was a US citizen, and (c) repeatedly claimed to have been both born in and be a citizen of the US is simple vandalism.Taichi101 (talk) 11:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No, that is a lesser suggestion. I don't see why I should replicate/duplicate the same information over and over again in this article, only for your unfounded preferences. The point is not contentious at all, since none of the sources itself dispute what's conventional to warrant the placement in his "Early life" outside the context of that it was a faked certificate (cited at that article revision, provided above). Thus, it's original research. I will let any third person decide, considering that it took a block before it pushed you to the talk page. --Cold Season (talk) 11:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Taichi, you state that it is a point of contention whether or not Sun was born in the United States. Who contends that he was, besides you? Please cite a published book or article that makes this claim. I have read two biographies of Sun (cited above) and numerous journal articles on various aspects of Sun's career. None of them makes this claim; they all claim that he was born in China; every link and published work listed in the article says the same thing. You must have a source for this claim, other than your own opinions. If you have succeeded in publishing on this subject yourself, you could cite that too, as long as the form of publication meets the wikipedia criteria for reliability. As it is, the material that you keep inserting now has no references in it, just numbers. Write your references here first, stop messing with the article.

You also say that Sun himself repeatedly claimed to have been born in and be a citizen of the US. Cite your sources. Sun's affidavit in his INS file does not count, his affidavit was presented to secure a passport so that he can enter the United States to raise money for the revolution. Find a public statement, or a documented private statement, to anyone but the INS, in which Sun Yat-sen says he was born in America; please post it here. Rgr09 (talk) 13:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Too much heat, not enough light. The man had a legally issued Hawaiian birth certificate and he claimed to have been born in Hawaii, although the weight of evidence does appear to support the conclusion that the Hawaii claim was motivated by expedience. If the concern is with stating the facts and allowing readers to draw their own conclusions, then these birth-relevant documents and claims by the man himself should be included. That scholarly works from several decades ago support the expedience view is also worth mentioning. Taichi does seem to have brought some of this on himself, but by my lights the rationales for prior edits were clumsy at best. I've got no dog in this fight, but when I was accused of being Taichi I did get piqued. I just don't like bullies, wiki- or any other kind, and in this instance there is a clear compromise solution which Cold Season and Rgr09 (same person?) refuse to consider. Too bad. Wiki is not altogether a bad idea. But the behavior of folks here is just another reason why the project is doomed to failure, at least that is when it comes to controversial persons. In the end the consensus of those with too much time on their hands is taken as truth. Not a pretty vision of the future.Gomezerella (talk) 17:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow, the hypocrisy here... You have a lot of nerve to speculate that I'm a sock of user Rgr09. Especially since your single-purpose account is made soon after the similar single-purpose account Taichi101 got blocked. So, how about you back up your statement and report me? I can tell you now that the report will be thrown out. --Cold Season (talk) 19:39, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

A few more things: if an editor decides to block anyone, he or she should block all parties to this recent dispute. Use a single, not a double standard. Also, check the history of edits and the history of what was said and when it was said, in the talk section, before rendering judgment as to who is the trouble-maker.Gomezerella (talk) 16:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taichi101 (talk • contribs)

assassination attempt?

The article states "The assassination attempt on Dr. Sun's life was featured in Bodyguards and Assassins", as if it was a fact, but is not elsewhere mentioned. The article on the movie states only that certain characters are historical, not the events. Did he come to Hong Kong in 1905 or 1906? Did he meet with leaders from other provinces? Did he not visit his mother?69.72.27.159 (talk) 07:01, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

What was Sun YAt SEn MOSt Credited for?

There are many things Su YAt Sen has done but what is he most Credited for?

Please help,

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.67.224.136 (talk) 03:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Sun yatsen's personaly account of his kidnapping in london

http://books.google.com/books?id=8xhBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 04:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Sun Yatsen's ideology on nationalism, self determination and mankind

Nationalism, self determination, and the "Great Commonwealth" of brotherhood between all humans.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y36aAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=g06QsXaPvGgC&pg=PA270#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=MJ-dCe_MppgC&pg=PA89#v=onepage&q&f=false

Same quote

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZavAkGUNdSkC&pg=PA176#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cEdQ1IuJFH4C&pg=PA175#v=onepage&q&f=false

Page 172

http://books.google.com/books?id=px2DAAAAMAAJ

Page 5

http://books.google.com/books?id=eihYAAAAMAAJ

Page 258

http://books.google.com/books?id=NjFLAAAAMAAJ

Page 33

http://books.google.com/books?id=jxxbAAAAMAAJ

Page 33

http://books.google.com/books?id=MG8nAQAAIAAJ

Sun Yatsen's switch to anti western imperialism and authoritarian tendencies, abandoning his early republican and federalist ideas.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vh7M1u4IGFkC&pg=PA358#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=vh7M1u4IGFkC&pg=PA360#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 02:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Why is his nationality still "Chinese" if he was US citizen?

Was there record of him renouncing US citizenship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.234.236 (talk) 07:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Nationality=ethnicity, not citizenship. Hence, the term "nation-state" - a state where the vast majority of its citizens are of one nationality - like the Czech Republic or modern Slovakia. Sun was born Chinese and will always be Chinese - not that he was born IN China, but because he is ethnically Chinese.HammerFilmFan (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

He was born in China. His Hawaiian birth certificate was undoubtedly forged. Any citizen of Hawaii automatically became a citizen of the United States upon annexation as a territory. I have seen information about this in other citations which have been apparently removed over the course of time. Sun's interest in U.S. citizenship, something that was otherwise closed to Chinese folks due to the Chinese Exclusion Act, was due to the ability it afforded him to travel in the United States & to raise money for his revolutionary cause during his exile from China.

Also, I would say it most accurate to identify the nationality of First President of China as Chinese.

Peaceray (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Why is a section of the article called butthole?

Is it vandalism? or the word meant something I didn't know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.113.73 (talk) 08:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

For the "Memorials and structures outside of Asia" section

There is also a statue in Chinatown, Manhattan. I don't have a source to offer, but I saw the sculpture in person recently. --Another Believer _(Talk) 04:17, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Marriages

The article currently states, "he was enraged when Sun announced his intention to marry Ching-ling because, as Sun was himself a Christian and already married with three women ...." However, the Family section only mentions one other wife (Lu Muzhen), and Sun's marriages to Kaoru Otsuki and Chen Cui-fen are not mentioned anywhere in the article but in the infobox. Also, the infobox implies that Sun's marriage to Kaoru ended before his marriage to Soong Ching-ling, so he would have only been married to two other women at the time, but the Kaoru Otsuki article doesn't say when their marriage ended. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:22, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Good one. If he had indeed married it should have been mentioned on the section and if it hasn't been you can correct and write or at least propose. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:26, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I added a "clarify" template because I'm not familiar with Sun's marital history myself, but at least anyone who sees the sentence will now see that it needs clarification. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:05, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Sun Yat-sen was only legally married twice. Lu Muzhen and Soong Ching-ling. Someone has recently put quite a bit of bad information in this article. I am writing the memoir of his two daughters and they have the correct story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.183.22 (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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I reviewed, but the link to the archive is dead, so I decided to revert the change. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

First president of the Republic of China

This article describes Sun as the "first president of the Republic of China" in the lead section, while the Yuan Shikai article describes Yuan as the first president in the lead section. This confusion should be resolved. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Sun was "provisional president." Arius1998 (talk) 03:22, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@Arius1998: Shouldn't it be clarified in the lead to avoid confusion? Vanjagenije (talk) 09:51, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Most likely, it should be. Yuan succeeds Sun as provisional president, but becomes first president only after the 1913 election. Arius1998 (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Sun was the the first president even as a provisional one. I would add "formal" to Yuan's presidency. STSC (talk) 01:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)