Talk:Sulli/Archive 1

Archive 1

File:Ssuldrem.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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File:Sulli highcut.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Sulli signature.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Sulli High Cut 51.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Requested move

Sulli Choi → Sulli – WP:STAGENAME is applied here. She is known mostly as Sulli without Choi. It's her real name Choi Jin Ri. Stage name shouldn't be joined with real name. Hyomin and Qri of T-ara are similar cases (formerly Park Hyo-min and Lee Qri --Relisted Mdann52 (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC) Morning Sunshine (talk) 10:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Jafeluv (talk) 10:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Remove parts of Variety shows

Nominating to remove extraneous appearances and only including shows where Choi appears as the main cast ie. f(x) Hello, f(x) Koala. Also to consider keeping multiple appearances such as Running Man and We Got Married Jwt987 (talk) 03:46, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Sulli is still a member of f(x)

Sulli is still officially a member of f(x), so the article can't call her a former member. SM has denied the rumor that she is leaving. Random86 (talk) 20:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2019

I want to edit this, please Chipolata123 (talk) 09:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

@Chipolata123: What do you want to add/change/remove? ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 09:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. NiciVampireHeart 11:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Time of death

The exact time of death has not been announced yet. It could be that the day of death is October 13. All that is known is that her manager talked to her at 6:30 pm on October 13 and found dead on October 14, 3 pm. She could have died anytime in between. --Christian140 (talk) 12:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Removal of Cause of Death

Sulli's listed cause of death is suicide; however, this is merely speculation and is unconfirmed as of now. The cause of death should be changed to "Unknown" or something similar until a cause is officially released. It has been speculated and reported by certain outlets as "suspected suicide," but there has been no confirmation from official outlets related to Sulli (her family, entertainment company, etc.), and having a listed cause of death when there is no available confirmation can lead to confusion and misinformation.

157.89.141.129 (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Day of death still unconfirmed

Several wikipedia language versions already spread October 14 as day of her death, however, even this article from just a few hours explicitly mentioned that the time of death is still unknown and either October 13 (night) or October 14 (morning).[1] —Christian140 (talk) 05:52, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2019

Please change "On October 14, 2019, at approximately 3:20 pm KST, Sulli was found dead by her manager at her house in Seongnam, south of Seoul.[29][30][31] Police stated that they are investigating it as a possible suicide,[32] and that Sulli had been suffering from severe depression.[33] The manager reportedly visited the house when he was not able to reach her, after speaking with Sulli via phone the previous day." to "On October 14, 2019, at 3:21 pm KST, Sulli was found dead by her manager at her house in Seongnam, south of Seoul. Police were investigating the case and confirmed it was suicide. They also stated that Sulli had been suffering from severe depression. The manager reportedly visited the house when he was not able to reach her, after speaking with Sulli via phone the previous day at around 6:00 pm KST. After further investigations, the police revealed that the idol hung herself from the second floor in her house. They also found a memo at the scene in which Sulli talked about her daily thoughts and troubles." Nctrance (talk) 15:03, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. aboideau^talk 15:07, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

The two e-online articles that first mention hanging (and, as such, are the probable sources) cite a Korean police report as their source but that report says NOTHING about hanging; they mistranslated it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by F451 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Sulli's relationship with Choiza

I would just like to stress that we are not a gossip site, so while mentioning that Sulli was in a relationship with Choiza is arguably relevant to her career as they dated for several years, speculative sentences such as they "were rumored to be dating after pictures of them holding hands surfaced on the Internet" is completely unnecessary and should be reverted. Sulli's relationship status should not take up the body of her personal life. --Cinccino^talk 12:22, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

@Cinccino: My aim was not to include rumors, instead I wanted to highlight that she was being cyberbullies before and during the relationship. I added a short explanation about her hiatus and a sentence about her being cyberbullied during the relationship. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 14:05, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Copied Sulli's comments on The Night of Hate Comments

I copied Sulli's comments here from The Night of Hate Comments pages (contributed by Bonnielou2013), to improve her page and provide further information. Per request from the author, I included a full list of what was copied. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 14:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

During Sulli's turn, she responded cheerfully to the mean spirited comments. She agreed with a commenter that said her biggest success is her social presence on SNS and that she is an attention seeker. She disagreed with a commenter who said she looked like a "druggie" because of her large dilated pupils, saying that she has done nothing illegal, but had studied drug behavior during [[method acting]].<ref name="first">{{cite web|last=Kim|first=Kyeong-young|title=#관종 #노브라 #마약…'악플의 밤' 설리 향한 오해와 진심→응원 ing|url=https://www.ytn.co.kr/_sn/1406_201906221548019643|date=June 22, 2019|work=[[YTN]]|language=Korean|accessdate=June 24, 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190624080743/https://www.ytn.co.kr/_sn/1406_201906221548019643|archive-date=June 24, 2019|url-status=live}}</ref> And she denied going braless to seek attention, saying that for her it was more comfortable, as well as "more natural and prettier".<ref name="first"/><ref name="newsweek">{{cite web|last=Tufayel|first=Ahmed|title=K-POP SINGER SULLI, WHO SPOKE OUT AGAINST CYBERBULLIES, DEAD AT 25|url=https://www.newsweek.com/sulli-k-pop-singer-dead-choi-jin-ri-sm-entertainment-1464962|date=October 14, 2019|work=[[Newsweek]]|accessdate=October 14, 2019}}</ref> She said she sees bras as an accessory that she sometimes wears, and she had continued to go braless after it became a controversy, to help make the prejudice disappear. Discussing past malicious comments she had received, Sulli said she had started to sue once, but the commenter, a student at a prestigious college, had sent a long letter of apology, and she had forgiven them. However, she said she would not do the same again.<ref name="first"/> She expressed her hope that people could accept each other's differences and said, "there are so many unique types of people in this country with so much talent and I feel like they're wasting it by putting their energy into critiquing others like this online."<ref name="newsweek"/>

Sulli, in real life, spoke out against cyber bullying, which affected her personally as she was often criticized online for her views and thoughts.<ref name="CBS">{{cite web|title=Sulli, South Korean pop star, found dead at her home at age 25|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sulli-died-former-fx-member-korean-pop-star-found-dead-today-her-home-cause-of-death-not-released-2019-10-14/|date=October 14, 2019|work=[[CBS News]]|accessdate=October 15, 2019}}</ref><ref name="newsweek" /> The [[Associated Press]] said, "she was known for her feminist voice and outspokenness that was rare among female entertainers in deeply conservative South Korea."<ref name="CBS"/>  [[Billboard K-Town|''Billboard'' K-Town's]] Jeff Benjamin said Sulli's appearance on the show seemed to reflect her controversial lifestyle. He said that, "as the youngest and most outspoken host", she talked about many personal topics, including "her pregnancy rumors, family plans, dating preferences and more."<ref>{{cite web|last=Benjamin|first=Jeff|title=Sulli Was an Outspoken K-Pop Star in an Industry That Would've Preferred She Stayed Quiet|url=https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/k-town/8532906/sulli-legacy-memorial-outspoken-kpop-star?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral|date=October 14, 2019|work=[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|accessdate=October 15, 2019}}</ref>

CherryPie94, I liked your arrangement of the above material best, a few edits back. Then most of it was removed both from this page and the TV show page by others. Collaborative editing at its finest! Still, whatever version, I think we all are doing our best for this now commemorative page for Sulli.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 05:32, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Edits about cause of death as hanging have no credible sources

I have removed this edit [2] and this edit [3] by User:Bigkpopfan and have left a message on their Talk page User talk:Bigkpopfan.

The citations are an Imgur photo of the supposed "leaked 119 report" at Sulli's house [4]. The first edit included a blog in English which mentions an "alleged claim" by police of hanging [5], and the others are Korean newspaper and TV reports from several days ago that talk about the 119 responder leak of the initial report at Sulli's house with no mention of cause of death [6], [7] and [8]. Until verifiable sources are available, Wikipedia should not add rumors from blogs and image sites.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC) Per Wikipedia:BURDEN and/or Wikipedia:ONUS to show verifiabiltiy of the sole source referencing "hanging", which is the Imgur image.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, the Seongnam Fire Station confirmed the validity of the document and apologized for its leak [9]. The document you linked above does say it was suicide by hanging (목을 매 자실했다는). The Korea Times has reported this in English and Korean [10]. A Naver search suggests that other articles confirmed this as well, but it seems that a certain... entity... has pressured them into removing any mention of it. ƏXPLICIT 04:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the Korea Times cite, I missed that. My problem with the Imgur image is that we have no proof of authenticity and it was released illegally. Whether that means sharing it is also illegal to share, I don't know. But I didn't think it should be the sole citation for such an important edit. I am on mobile now, but will change the citations later, if everyone agrees.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

However, I've decided to stick with Wikipedia:ONUS on this and disagree with the edit, that may or may not have verifiable citations, and would like the information to be removed while a consensus is reached. Explicit, that is why I reached out to you as an Administrator with more knowledge of the procedure here. Although I reverted Bigkpopfan twice, they reverted my edits and have not discussed here, although they did leave a note on my talk page User talk:Bonnielou2013#Updated death cause of Sulli. I thought that if an editor questions the addition of information, it is up to the first editor to convince that it is a necessary addition, ie, "ONUS" as WP the section says.

In addition to concerns about the authenticity of the 119 report image that was used and the legality issues of sharing it, even if it is an accurate copy, I don't think Wikipedia needs to be one of the very few sources of reporting the cause of her death, which has not been confirmed by proper channels and even the final autopsy report has not been released. Amazingly, Wikipedia is going out on a limb while even persistent blog and online sites like Allkpop, Netizenbuzz, Soompi, etc. are not even willing to take a chance on this one. Or perhaps it is just proper decency and respect for Sulli's death. [redacted] I'm just not all right with adding this, seeing the dearth of media reporting on this, just the articles confirming that the report was released illegally, one image that may or may not be authentic and a mention in a Korea Times article. I am not even going to look for obscure citations, I just don't agree with us posting it now, there is no urgency. The citation you refer to where you say " the Seongnam Fire Station confirmed the validity of the document and apologized for its leak" [11], also clearly states, "It is a document that should not be leaked because it contains personal information and sensitive contents related to the death of the deceased." I see no justification why Wikipedia needs to use this leaked document, even if it is a verifiable copy, as a source. And no need to be the first to list a cause of death.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 06:18, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I find the legality of the leak as not relevant to the issue because we have reliable sources that verify the claim. Reliable sources like The Korea Herald are deemed as such for fact-checking and accuracy. There was a similar situation with M.I.A., where her birth certificate was leaked following the birth of her son; it showed her real birth date (July 18, 1975), and not the one reliable sources always cited (July 17, 1977). The article was updated to reflect this. This happened a decade ago. It is Wikipedia's job to report accurate and verifiable claims. It is not Wikipedia's job to instill morals and ethics regarding leaks of private legal documents. Asides from being unreliable sources, Allkpop, Netizenbuzz, Soompi, and friends not reporting the cause of death does not negate that other reliable sources did publish this information. In fact, giving Naver another look, the articles that removed the hanging claim were published on October 14, while The Korea Times piece was published three days later. To me, that shows that they took their time to confirm the fact before fraudulently sending it out. [Redacted] ƏXPLICIT 07:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I asked you to look at the rules pertaining to my request that this information to be removed until a consensus is reached about whether it should be added. It is my understanding that I could remove the information and request a consensus. However, I was denied this with the 3RR problem that I wished to avoid. Regardless of the past example you provide and regardless of whether we don't tackle moral issues, I wish for others to participate, not just you and I. And I still do not agree that the Imgur image is a Reliable Source (I can't even find who posted it) and should be replaced with the Korea Times citation or any other you can provide that are reliable. [Redacted]--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 07:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I decided to respond to the discussion instead because, while Bigkpopfan's sources were poor, the result of my search supports the cause of death by reliable sources. While you did not breach WP:3RR, both of you were still edit warring, which can still be subject to sanctions. I don't think WP:ONUS applies here; that section of policy discusses things that are verified by a reliable source and deals with whether the verified content is suitable for inclusion on a particular page or at all, while the content in question was removed because it was not reliably sourced. However, as a I just mentioned, that has been addressed. At this point, I'm not seeing a policy-backed reason to omit this information. The content can be referenced, it can be referenced to a reliable source, and is well within the scope of the article's contents. Just for clarification, are you still opposed to the inclusion of the content even if cited by The Korea Times? ƏXPLICIT 07:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm fearful of commenting more, and upsetting the apple cart, as the content on the page has been removed by yet another editor, at this time. That editor didn't leave an Edit Summary and has not joined this discussion, nor has the original contributing editor User:Bigkpopfan. And Bigkpopfan has, also, not reverted the deletion this time; maybe as an IP new editor with a single contribution, they lost interest, and time has been kind to my wishes that it remain off the page. Although I originally protested due to lack of reliable sources, I did add ONUS as an "and/or" along with Wikipedia:BURDEN, meaning that even if the sources were found to be verifiable, I would like the edit to be excluded by reasoning of ONUS, as stated here, Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion - While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, all verifiable information need not be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content.

I mentioned replacing the Imgur image citation with The Korea Times citation as a worst case scenario, and yes, I am still opposed to adding the content. So if voices here count as votes, we have one aye (presuming I understand you correctly) and one nay. Ostensibly we have one more aye from Bigkpopfan and one more nay from the editor that last deleted it.

As I noted, time seems to be a contributing element here, so is it possible that we just leave things as they are now and see what happens next. With the lack of input from the original editor at this point, I suggest we just let things be, if that is ok with you, Explicit. And thanks for your thoughts and contributions here as always. I know I was wrong to revert twice, but I guess that is why WP created 3RR, to give us time to come to our senses.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 02:28, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Explicit. The cause of death is a verified by a reliable source. There is no reason not to add it. It is weird to omit facts from this article when all other Korean celebrities who died by suicide have the cause of death on their page. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 09:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Date of death

In the article lead and the infobox, it states Sulli’s death to be October 14. However, in the Death and impact section, it states that it is a likely suicide that happened on the night of the 13th or morning or the 14th. If that is the case, should the lead and Infobox not state “October 13 or 14”? Alex (talk) 00:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree all should say both dates, October 13 or 14, with citations saying this.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 02:34, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Over two months with no objection to this, so I've gone ahead and made the change. Alex (talk) 21:23, 28 December 2019 (UTC)