Talk:Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik/GA2

GA Review

See also: Talk:Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik/GA1

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 18:34, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:33, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Assessment

I'm adding comments and suggestions in section by section, and I'll strike them out as they are addressed. Please do not hesitate to let me know if I have in your opinion made an error. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:36, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Replace the url for Bacharach, Jere L. (1996) with this link to JSTOR. (registration required).
• Replace the url for Crone, Patricia (1980) with this (full text from the Internet Archive).
• Replace the url for Hawting, Gerald R. (2000) with this (full text from the Internet Archive).
• Replace the dead url for Hillenbrand, Carole, ed. (1989) with this (Google Books, snippet view).
• Replace the url for Kennedy, Hugh (2004) with this (full text from the Internet Archive).
• Replace the url for Lecker, Michael (1989) with this link to JSTOR. (registration required).
• Add this url for Marsham, Andrew (2009) ([1]).
• Replace the url for Shaban, M. A. (1971) with this (full text from the Internet Archive).

Would adding these links to the full text from the Internet Archive violate our copyright rules? I vaguely remember someone telling me this before when I added such links to an article. Please advise. --Al Ameer (talk) 23:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm an expert on copyright issues, but this discussion from The Village Pump makes me feel confident enough to say 'add the Internet Archive links'. If you don't, I'll understand. At the worst, someone with more expertise will revert the edits and explain why it had to happen. ---Ami

@Amitchell125: Agreed. Thanks for pointing this out. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:42, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

All done. Al Ameer (talk) 17:59, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Lead section/infobox

• In place of the long-established urban center of Lydda,… - Lydda wasn't just replaced, its fate was more violent and final, and I think the lead section should imo reflect this. What do you think?

• I amended to reflect the article body more on this matter. Let me know your thoughts. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Looks fine now, apologies for the late reply. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• ... as late as the 11th century. - amend to 'until the 11th century', to avoid editorialising.
• push-back sounds rather euphemistic, imo. Consider describing what actually happened using something like 'physical resistance'.
• Remove Moreover, as being vague and unnecessary.
• It was the deepest Arab offensive… - do you mean ' It was the deepest Arab offensive yet…'? Just to clarify, it was the deepest Arab offensive, though of course not the deepest Islamic offensive, which was the Ottoman Turkish conquest centuries later.
• ...both ending... - improve the prose by amending to 'which both ended'.
• Consider making the text starting from Sulayman died in Dabiq… part of a new paragraph.
• I think there are a few points from the article that need to be added to the lead section, so as to ensure it is a concise summary of the main text. Consider mentioning:

• that he was born in Medina;
• that he was partly raised in the desert by his Banu Abs kinsmen;

• I don’t think his birth in Medina and partial upbringing are significant enough to warrant mention in the lead. What do you think? If you believe it’s important enough I’ll cook up something. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Happy for it not to be there.

• that he further cultivated ties with the opponents of al-Walid's viceroy;

• Good point, done. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• that Ramla developed as a market town and became home to a high proportion of religious scholars;

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• that he built notable public buildings in Jerusalem;

• The only example I have is a bathhouse — Jerusalem saw more important development under his two predecessors, not enough to warrant a lead mention here, in my opinion.

Agreed.

• that Qutayba ibn Muslim led a rebellion which failed when the troups refused to follow him;

• Done—tied it in with the general policies against al-Hajjaj’s people in the previous government. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• that his eldest son and hier Ayyub predeceased him in 717;

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• that he was viewed in messianic terms by contemporary poets.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Please look over my changes to the lead as I made several changes. My only concern is that the lead might be too big relative to the article. Al Ameer (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I have edited down the lead section as much as I dare at User:Amitchell125/sandbox2, which may help with your concern about the size. Hope this helps, please feel free to ignore what I have done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Nicely done. I made only one correction in the third paragraph (please check, in case I'm mistaken here) --Al Ameer (talk) 16:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Early life

• He was born in Medina around 675 - amend to 'he was probably born', as this is how Eisener put it.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 16:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• ...was a great-granddaughter of Zuhayr ibn Jadhima, a prominent 6th-century chieftain of the Arab tribe of Banu Abs. - a citation is needed for this.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• Can we discuss the second paragraph in the section, which has a reference that doesn't seem to verify the text preceding it. Is it just me? Also, the following text has no citation(s).

• Big oversight on my part. It's contextual information about the political environment in the Caliphate during Sulayman's youth. I've added references now. Al Ameer (talk) 16:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• ...certain loyalist Arab tribes. - certain is unneeded and can be removed.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 16:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Governorship of Palestine

• Consider amending reference 6 (Kennedy) from p. 91 to p. 105, the correct page for the edition linked in the Bibliography section (i.e., the second edition, I suspect your copy is a different edition to this).

• Fixed. I have the Second Edition. I think must have been using the editions made available by Google books at the time. Al Ameer (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
• I made further changes here, including more info about Lydda's fall to obscurity, that you may want to look over. Al Ameer (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• Jerusalem... ...remained the region's religious focal point. - I would change the page in Luz used to cite this from p. 43 to p. 49 (p. 43 lacks the information).

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Although Reference 31a (Luz, p. 43) does mention the palace, I couldn't find where it describes it as 'the first structure built'.

• Clarified; it was page 53: "Al-Baladhuri relates that the first great edifice Sulayman put up in al-Ramla was his own mansion; only after that did he build the mosque" Al Ameer (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 32 (Luz) - I don't really understand why there are four pages cited here, as a reference for an individual sentence in the article, and p. 32 is a map and so does not cite the information.

• Removed p. 32. Multiple pages are just meant to show the supporting information could be found on those pages. I can narrow it down further if this is preferable. Al Ameer (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I would keep it tight, so to speak, so that the citation relates to the text in the article quite closely. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:18, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• 10 kilometers (and elsewhere in the article) - convert to miles using {{convert|10|km|mi}}.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• ...following the erection of Ramla,… - as cities are founded, constructed, etc., but not 'erected', I would amend this.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Caliphate

The Caliphate in 945 (centred on the southern Caspian Sea)

• Is the map not out by over a century? Consider using this, same area covered but the date is 750.

• I'm using this map strictly because it shows the specific territorial expansion of the Caliphate during Sulayman's reign, i.e. the light brown areas along the southern Caspian coast, with notation in the map legend. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Please see a cropped version of the map I have uploaded on WikiCommons. What are your thoughts about this map replacing the current one? (it can be amended if you think it should be) Amitchell125 (talk) 09:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Fine by me. Thanks for taking the initiative here and with the Islamic Syria map ;) Al Ameer (talk) 20:25, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• The image of the seige of Constantinople is cropped. Consider replacing it with an image of the full page, which imo is more interesting.

I agree, done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Indeed, Sulayman kept close ties… and Furthermore, between 715 and 716… - can you take out indeed and Furthermore? (they come across as being editor's remarks).

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 47 (Kennedy) - p. 105-6; Reference 49 - p. 105.

• Fixed Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• ...Sulayman was concerned that Waki's nomination… - I couldn't find Waki ibn Abi Sud al-Tamimi on p. 128.

• Thanks for spotting this error. It's on pages 78–79 of Shaban (1970) The Abbasid Revolution. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Are references 50 and 51 not citing the same author, with one citation quoting the other? It doesn't look to me as if both are required here.

• Removed one. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 52 (Wellhausen) - p. 261 is better?

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• ...significant territorial expansion… - significant is a peacock term, so I think it should go.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Death and succession

• He had become ill… - consider amending to 'he fell ill'. Also, as the nature of his death is discussed here, I'm not sure why Sulayman died of illness in Dabiq… shouldn't simply say 'Sulayman died in Dabiq'.
• This is partly corroborated… - consider amending to something like 'That this happened is partly corroborated' to improve the prose.
• Unlink Psalms, Torah and Job from the quote (it's common practice not to include links in quotes).
• ...Sulayman weighed options for a successor with his chief adviser Raja. - sounds rather clumsy imo. If it was taken out altogether, nothing would be lost.

• All done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Assessment/Family

• ...he was gluttonous and promiscuous. - reference 46 (Wellhausen) - replace p. 263 with p. 262?

• Done Al Ameer (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• I'm not sure why you have given Shaban's quote separate in the way you have, imo, it should be included within the paragraph.

• Done, Al Ameer (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• [Sulayman's] - is this needed, as it's clear whose reign is being referred to?

• Good point, done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Link panegyrics (Panegyric).

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Consider amending ...at the time of Sulayman's death… , e.g. by saying 'when his father died'.

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Passing

Congratulations on producing another fine article, Al Ameer. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Thank you sir, for another thorough review and all of your improvements. Hope to send more your way in the near future ;) —Al Ameer (talk) 01:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)