Talk:Sudan lion

Lions in South and North Sudan, Central Africa, Northeast Africa and East Africa

Male in Khartoum Zoo, Sudan

Young male Nubian lion in New York Zoo, 1903

BhagyaMani Firstly, Chardonnet (2002) did not say that all Sudan lions are Central African lions, otherwise they should have mentioned Sudan in the table about lions in Western and Central Africa in Page 17, which would have made no geographical sense, since Sudan has been and continues to be treated as being in Northeast or North Africa, even excluding the South's independence in 2011, and Sudan is on both sides of the Nile, so just because lions to the west of it were grouped under the Central African group in Page 12 does not mean that all Sudanese lions should be grouped under the Central African lion, since lions are also present to the east of the river, and these lions were grouped under the East African lion. Secondly, as for the work of Riggio et al. (2013), though lions in South Sudan were depicted as being part of the Central African population, lions in only a small fraction of Sudan, between the Central African Republic and South Sudan, were grouped with the Central African lion, not in other parts of Sudan, especially where the Nile is. Thirdly, the region of the Nubian lion, which you used to be keen on linking with the Barbary lion of North Africa, not the Central African lion, considering what these guys said, is divided between Sudan and Egypt, so Nubian lions were partly from what is now the Sudan. I just put some images of Nubian and Sudanese lions. Leo1pard (talk) 13:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

1. Read Chardonnet (2002) again, who indeed included Sudan in the Central African lion range countries. So did Riggio (2011) btw. And this because both assumed that lions in Sudan were, or if still present are, connected to lions in CAR and Chad. 2. As already mentioned on the Lion talk page: it is insincere to extrapolate from 9 of 19 lion samples with P. l. leo haplotypes found in Ethiopia to your so-called Northeast Africa lion populations being admixed, as you did by referring to them as leo x melanochaita. None of the authors who worked on lion phylogeny had lion samples from Sudan. So there is no basis for your erroneous speculation that lions in Sudan and Northeast Africa are admixed, it is far-fetched and exaggerated. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Chardonnet et al. did not include Sudanese lions to the east of the Nile (and northern Sudan was part of the range of the Nubian lion, which you preferred to associate with the Barbary lion of North Africa rather than the Central African lion) as being of the Central African range, this is something you should already know. Again you are contradicting yourself. What else do I have to say? Leo1pard (talk) 07:41, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course I know! And extended the East African lion article accordingly. I did not 'associate' Nubian and Barbary lions, but referenced authors who subsumed this particular 19th century specimen to P. l. leo and to massaica. It's anyway guesswork whether this lion was caught east or west of Nile, in Sudan or much farther north in Egypt. Hence tedious to bicker about this one. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:23, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

References