Talk:Statute of Kalisz

Wikisource

Consider moving text of orginal and translation to Wikisource. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 30 June 2005 14:32 (UTC)

• You are right... I will move the English translation of the full text to Wikisource. --Ttyre 1 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)

The first part of the text had no references at all. It claimed "Jewish Supremacism" in Poland. This is a highly controversial Theory of David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.132.179 (talk) 15:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The quotes out of the Statute of Kalisz have no references either, and are very different to the text in http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Kalisz_Statut so I take away the quotes that differ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.132.179 (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing problems

• 1.) The source of the translation of the text is unclear.
• 2.) The Whereabouts of this document over the past millennium and presently is unclear. We need ot have a history of where it was physically created, kept, and in what archive it now resided. Or, it it was lost in a war, fire or similar, we need to know when and what authenticated copies of the original exist or existed long enough to be reliably authenticated and copied.
• 3.) Context and impact of this decree. Article needs good historical sources on why it was written and what impact it had.

• 3.1) A section on the Statue's repuutation and public profile in the modern period would be interesting, since it is lcear that this document had become a thing by the 1920s, and perhaps earlier.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Notability

There is no doubt about notablity. The creation of a notable work of political art based on this document establishes that even if it turns out that the Statues are a myth. And if it is a myth, it is an extremely notable one. Probably just needs sourcing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Arthur Szyk (1894-1951). Statute of Kalisz, Jewish Craftsmen and Tradesmen (1927), Paris.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Quite misleading

The first paragraph of the current text is quite misleading:

"The General Charter of Jewish Liberties known as the Statute of Kalisz, and the Kalisz Privilege, granted Jews in the Middle Ages special protection and positive discrimination in Poland when they were being persecuted in Western Europe. These rights included exclusive jurisdiction over Jewish matters to Jewish courts, and established a separate tribunal for other criminal matters involving Christians and Jews designed to favour Jewish people. It led to the formation of a Jewish 'state within a state', which attracted Jewish immigrants from across Europe to Poland, which became the center of the world's Jewish community for centuries."

1. In Western Europe there were various attitudes to the Jews in the 13th century and many administrative actions were securing Jews. If I recall correctly, the Statute of Kalisz was very much in line with the similar privileges in Western Europe (the term, that after all did not exist). So the line should be: "when they were being persecuted in Western Europe." ---> "in line with certain similar privileged in Western Europe."

2. "It led to the formation of a Jewish 'state within a state'," a/ the term "state within a state" implies separate politics and being an alternative to the current political powers, possibly with a view to changing the regime. This is not applicable to the system in Poland - the rights of the Jews are rather similar to those of the burghers (city-dwellers) or clergy. This actually has its own name "the fourth estate". b/ even that is disputable as the Jews were very much subordinate to the elites of the Kingdom, with the royal/princely patronage only limiting that subordination. It should be rather described that "the Jewes enjoyed autonomy".

3. "became the center of the world's Jewish community for centuries" - not yet, it could be right in the 19th century but in the Middle Ages the number and cultural weight of the Jews in Poland was minuscule as compared to the other parts of the world. Only in 16th century, after the Alhambra Decree in Spain, the number rose.

So, is it real?

In the section Accusations of forgery, references are given to scholarly sources asserting that the statute is fake. But the lede and all the text up to that point presents it as real. So, which claim is true? Even if there is a significant proportion of scholars who consider it authentic, I'd expect the lede to at least mention that its authenticity is controversial. 87.126.21.225 (talk) 21:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

There are accusations that the original document that the kings of Poland for several centuries swore on is just a forgery. But its historical status and force is not fake. Galehautt (talk) 09:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)