Talk:Star Wars music/Archive 1

The Star Wars saga principal themes and diegetic music

The leitmotifs

• It would be good to have a short audio file (MIDI sound) of the main Star Wars themes.

• It would also be good to have a short description of each motif, including when it is heard, if it is generally slow or fast, if it is in Major of Minor mode, etc.

• The "When-it-is-heard" is almost done for each theme, but it must be more general than specific.

• The description of Across the Stars could be a good exemple of a short analysis.

The soundtracks

• For the soundtracks, it would be good to have a list of the releases, a description of the impact of those releases (top ten discs or top ten tunes), and how where they released (LP, CD, CD with DVD).

• It would also be good, for the soundtracks, to have the track listing of the main releases.

Other Star Wars music

• There are several other SW works which include music not covered here. For instance, there was the Shadows of the Empire soundtrack, the soundtrack to Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor, the music of The Star Wars Holiday Special, the Christmas in the Stars album, etc. The Wookieepedian 17:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)¸

• If we add the music from Shadows of the Empire, this means this page is now used for all music related to Star Wars, which include KotOR and many other video games. I do not think this is a good idea. Perhaps there should be a page for Star Wars movie music by John Williams and another page for other Star Wars music, if it is really usefull to have this kind of informations on Wikipedia. Tristan Morin 21:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

The canon music is that which appears in the films or was recorded for the films (eg lots of the stuff on the 1997 SEs which was cut from the films, but still counts). Anything else should not be in an encyclopaedic article about SW music. Batmanand | Talk 10:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Canon includes all non-contradicting EU, so there is no reason not to include other SW music. The Wookieepedian 01:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

There were track listings that simply were not important and so I took them out. There's a lot of opinion in this page and not a lot of background on the music, how it was put together and reasonable analysis. It is sort of a shoddy page for such a noble subject. I hope someone can fix it and give the subject the attention it needs. Gingermint (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The track listings are important as many of these albums have fallen into obscurity or become unavailable. Just because they are not of John William's personal score is not a good enough reason to discount them as not important. They are still classed as Star Wars music and official at that. If people are unaware of the specific tracks, how are they to refer to & accurately discuss & compare them? In many cases, this is the only site where track titles and lengths are accurately listed. If it is felt that they should be deleted, then individual pages need to be created to preserve this valuable information. I do agree that there is an excess of opinion and not enough hard facts into the background of these albums however.

Best score

Which Star Wars score is the best ? Episode IV won an Academy Award but has nothing of the complexity of Episode I, II and III. Episode V was at the time the longest score in film music history and has really beautiful themes (Yoda's theme and Han and the Princess) but the Imperial March comes much too often to make it a great musical experience. Episode VI is my favorite of the Original Trilogy. But can we compare it with the Prequel Trilogy? John Williams really changed his style in 20 years, so that the Prequel Trilogy is another kind of music. We could say Episode III is the more dramatic score of the Prequel Trilogy, but, except for the bootlegs (that I do not have), we just know of half the score. Tristan Morin 21:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC).

It is widely agreed (eg [1], [2] etc) that Episode V is the best score. Batmanand | Talk 10:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The complexity of the orchestration and the development of the music is superior in Episode IV. I think it deserves its own page. Gingermint (talk) 23:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Albums

I know that this article is part of the Star Wars wikiproject but when I was looking down at the discography listings and I reckon that it needs a bit tidied up to bring it more in line with WP:ALBUM with infoboxes for each score (not individual release but each film, keeping information for each release) and the like. It may just be my opinion but I certainly think that it would make it a lot tidier. Any objections? --Thetriangleguy 19:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Similarities with other compositions

• I kind of think that some of the end credits music in Return of the Jedi bears a resemblance to the first 5 or 6 notes of Make Our Garden Grow, from Bernstein's Candide. Not sure how significant that is though. 164.107.255.124 (talk) 00:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)Star Wars Fan27
• Maybe someone can add something to this section about the similar beginnings of "The Walls Converge" and Finlandia by Jean Sibelius? 24.196.111.46 04:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• I think some mention of the similarities with Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake should be made.

This section appears to blame all of the similarities on "temp tracks." Has this been proven? It also calls the transcribing of other compositions a "clear exaggeration." It could also be noted that the possibility of a composer striking the same eight notes within a six note range as someone else, the Main Theme for example, without any exposure to it before is 1 out of 1,679,616. ChrisBlueStone 00:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with ChrisBlueStone. The article implies that the similarities are rather minor and that those who think they aren't are in the minority, neither of which is true. I'd say there's a general concensus amongst classical musicians that Williams steals/borrows a lot of ideas from other compositions. Also, there are a lot of weasel words or statements of opinion in the opening paragraph of that section. Ebolamunkee (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a hell of a statement. Actually, one could even say an actionable one. Outside of the UK I've not heard this said very much. As a card carrying union professional musician I can assure you that it is not, indeed, a "general consensus amongst classical musicians" that Williams is a plagiarist. Gingermint (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The article states that the 'Imperial March' was taken from Prokofiev's Love for Three Oranges. There is a similarity there. But in melody at least it's not particularly close. However, Parade of the Ewoks is obviously taken from Love for Three Oranges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.235.2 (talk) 00:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Anakin/Vader

I think we should call both of the duels "Vader vs.Obi-Wan," as those are the correct names of the two opponents in each battle. We can simply note which one is on Mustafar and which one is on the Death Star. The Wookieepedian 17:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK a few things count against this. First is that, in the popular imagination at least, Anakin is not Vader until the suit goes on. Secondly, there is official infomation. The musical cue is called "Anakin v. Obi Wan". In all versions of the scipt I can find online (eg [3], [4]), he is referred to as "Anakin". yes, they are unofficial, but it still seems fairly convincing. Thirdly, in the duel itself, he is referred to as "Anakin" by Obi-Wan, and he does not appear to try to correct him. Finally, there is a precedent in the films for people becoming Sith Lords but still being called - for convenience - their old name: Count Dooku. No-one is suggesting that we change all references of "Count Dooku" on Wikipedia to "Lord Tyranus". Why should we change this reference of "Anakin" to "Darth Vader"? Batmanand | Talk 21:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

At that particular point in time... Anakin is dead. Anakin is no longer. That's Vader fighting Obi-Wan. When he pledged his allegiance to the Sith, he gave up the name of Anakin Skywalker completely (see his statement in ROTJ of "That name no longer has any meaning for me."). The film itself gives us this information, and... the film is about as official of a source as you can get concerning his name. Public opinion has no bearing whatsoever on an encyclopedia. Also, it's only natural that Obi-Wan would call him Anakin during the ROTS duel, as Obi-Wan still thinks of him as Anakin at that point, as that's what he had called him for the entire time he had known him. For these reasons, I believe that he should always be referred to as Darth Vader in all of his appearances after Palpatine gives him the name of Darth Vader. Dooku never gave up his former name, and neither did Palpatoine, so there is no reason to refer to them by a specific name unless the context demands it. The Wookieepedian 22:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What about the fact that the scripts attribute the lines he speaks to "Anakin"? And also, public opinion should play a part. Rememeber, WP:NAME says, and I quote, "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." Most regular joes think he is Anakin until the suit is put on. Why should we confuse an alreayd confusing issue more by not using the name that a) he is officially referred to as in the script b) everyone around him says c) most people know him as at that point and d) that is backed up by, eg, the music? Batmanand | Talk 22:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Very well. But regular joes must be pretty stupid to not notice one of the most pivotal moments of the film. If they think he's Anakin until he gets into the suit, then it is of no surprise to me that shows like American Idol are on the air. The Wookieepedian 22:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha very true. If any other users have an opinion on this, and they side with you, then I will gladly back down. I just think that my view is consensus, for the moment. Batmanand | Talk 08:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I agree with Batmanand. George Lucas even said how Anakin grew from a little boy (Anakin Skywalker) to the man in the SUIT (Darth Vader). Also, in the book "Dark Lord: Rise of Lord Vader", it is said that "after the duel at mustafar, Anakin Skywalker abandoned his old name completely, becoming Darth Vader." So, for all intensive purposes he is still mostly Anakin until he puts on his suit and learns that Padme is dead, the only thing he had to cling onto his old life.--DeadGuy 17:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Number one reason why the duels should stay as "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan": the soundtrack lists the piece as "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.23.196.162 (talk) 11:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Main theme

Someone should really make the article for the main theme, particularly since it is "easily the most famous."68.6.85.167 08:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

That can be argued against, as the Imperial March, Force Theme, and Duel of the Fates have high fame in popular culture as well.--DeadGuy 19:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The secret main theme of the Starwars saga is the Force Theme. It appears in all six movies and countless of games and in a much larger quantity than any other theme. This is perfectly illustrated in this extensive article concerning the Force Theme on the jwfan board. (link: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20264). Some of this information could be included in the wiki article.

New articles

I personally think that this article is way too long. We should separate it into smaller articles so it would be easier to read. 3/4 of the article is for the soundtracks, and these are just listing of the tracks without comments on the impact in the movie or the prizes and nominations. Perhaps we should have 1 article for the leitmotifs and another for the soundtracks. Or a separate one for each soundtrack. Or a separate one for each movie. Does someone have an idea ? Trimmo 17:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC).

I created an article for each soundtrack. The article is easier to read like that. Trimmo 12:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC).

What track is that theme that plays during the final part of Luke and Vader's duel?

I think it plays right after Vader says he could turn leia to the dark side.Ollie the Magic Skater 00:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The cue is mostly commonly called The Dark Side Beckons, and is found in the track "The Battle of Endor II" on the most recent CD releases. Batmanand | Talk 09:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, it starts at about 5:02 into that track. =) 152.23.196.162 11:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the Star Wars soundtrack downloads link illegal?

You can download the music from it, so...

• Wait, what do you mean, i mean i'll take the link.

Cantina band

I thought I saw a little snip of an old World War II movie on AMC or TCM, and they were playing the second Cantina Band song in the background, or something amazingly familiar. If anyone sees the movie again or finds something, can they post a mention? I really do like the jazz/swing feel and would like to find other similiar things to listen to. Stuff from the WW2 era would be pretty close.

Just generally, Glenn Miller would be a good match to the cantina band songs; Duke Ellington would be a good match, Benny Goodman was one of Williams' specific influences, I believe, as well. =) 152.23.196.162 11:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Force Theme vs. Luke's Theme

I think that calling it 'The Force Theme' is incorrect. I always thought that this theme was Luke's theme. Indeed, it is played when Obi-Wan first explains the Force to Luke, but it doesn't always happen when the Force is being referenced to. For example, the first time this theme occurred was in Episode IV when Luke - before we see Obi-Wan or hear about the Force - walks up to the edge of the sink hole and observes the twin sunset. Therefore, it can't possibly be the Force theme, because the concept of the Force has not yet been introduced. Subsequent occurrences of this theme are when Obi-Wan explains the Force to Luke, when Luke is driving in the speeder back to the homestead, and again when Luke arrives and sees his dead aunt and uncle. Notice that - out of those four occurrences - only one happens when the Force is mentioned, and all of them happen when Luke is present. See what I'm getting at? At the least, Luke should get some credit under the current definition of the Force Theme, as he's not mentioned at all.

The theme heard over the title crawl is Luke's theme. The theme heard, for example, during the Binary Sunset in Episode IV is the Force theme. That is how everyone, including Williams himself, describes them, so that is how they shall be called in the article. Batmanand | Talk 09:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the Force Theme also the theme used for Obi-wan Kenobi? — Loadmaster 17:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Revisions

I hope people don't mind the revisions to the page I just made. Amendation of a nummber of theme descriptions and removal of a host of very minor themes to be included in a subsection on secondary motifs. I did this because the article is getting quite cluttered and those themes did not fit the description of "principle leitmotifs" that the article sets out to describe.

I actually think the article is way too short. Not enough leitmotifs are covered and is generally too technically simplistic. Gingermint (talk) 23:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Imperial March Score

As someone who has played the Imperial March twice (once in 2001, the other in 2006) I couldn't help but notice that the score is in the wrong key. It should be in G minor, not B minor. Any chance someone can correct this?crazyviolinist 08:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have uploaded a version in G minor, both on this page and the theme's own page. I have also added a few others. Would it be useful to see some others notated? Hobbes35 19:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

why isn't there an article for the main theme?

i mean, that's THE star wars song. all of the rest have articles, why not the main theme? Colorfulharp233 23:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

One word: Laziness. 152.23.196.162 11:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not create the article? As a wikipedia you have that power. Nat682 21:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Across the Stars =/= Battle of Endor

Whoever edited in that the Episode II love theme "Across the Stars" resembles the Battle of Endor music needs to back that up with specific references to sections in the love theme and the Battle of Endor pieces. 152.23.196.162 11:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Music

None of the music on the side works with the online player, and, unless someone can show me how to, you can't download them. The samples are okay, but they are not what they sound like in the movies. Nat682 21:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jawa theme.MID

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BetacommandBot (talk) 09:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:StarWarsMainThemeSnippet.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 11:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The Orchestral Score and Orchestration

Does anyone know is it possible to buy the orchestral score for the music in the films? And is there a list of instruments Williams uses in the films?

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Fair use rationale for Image:Imperial theme.MID

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Not by Metallica

Throwing "metallica imperial march" into google will only show references to filesharing sources and webpages about this version being an urban legend, no reference to any Metallica discography at all. Suggest to delete reference

Duel of the Fates origins

I have added a "citation needed" tag to the statement on this page that claims that the ostinati and choral interjections of "Duel of the Fates" are originally heard in The Empire Strikes Back. I checked and cannot find any such thing. Can anyone point out the source of that statement or, even better, point out where in the soundtrack those elements can be heard? maestro (talk) 15:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

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Original research

This is a really interesting article and has lots of great stuff in it. The problem with it is that it has almost no cited references and contains a lot of original research. There are a lot of sentences that compare JW motifs to other compositions, or speculate on the meaning of a theme (this is "probably a reference to...", JW "most likely wrote this to..."). While this is all interesting material, Wikipeida aricles need to describe what others have written, not to create new criticism. Can anyone help to find reliable sources for these claims, such as a music criticism book?

I'll be happy to help improve this article, but I need to flag this issue up as it is quite widespread in this article. Wikidwitch (talk) 09:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Music score extracts

I have worked to rescue the existing extracts from John Williams's score from deletion. Because they are a copyrighted composition, any reproduction of this music is subject to copyright law - even if you make it yourself in Sibelius.

Wikpedia does allow the use of a limited number of sheet music excerpts for critical commentary on the composition in question, but if you use one in an article, it must be accompanied by a fair use rationale or it will be deleted. Non-free images must also be published on main wikipedia, not on Wikimedia Commons, which is only for free images. See the Fair use guidelines for more info.

The files in question are listed here. To the best of my knowledge I have added enough info to protect them.

• File:PrincessLeiasThemeSnippet.jpg
• File:YodasTheme.jpg
• File:EwoksThemeSnippet.jpg
• File:HanSoloandPrincessSnippet.jpg

If anyone wants help with adding a rationale, just drop me a line. I'm not an admin but am experienced in add non-free stuff. Wikidwitch (talk) 10:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for doing this. Tjhewer (talk) 21:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah well, four years later and they've been deleted. If anyone actually cares about this you can read about the decision here. Basically the reason is that "Wikipedia is meant to impart free knowledge" and anything that is not free must be obliterated. Fair use is meaningless - no matter what lengths you go to to comply with the rules, someone will just declare your rationale to be meaningless and undo any work you put into enhancing this site will be a waste of time. The fact that this article has been tagged with original research and lacking citations for the past 7 years is of no consequence - the priority in Wikipedia is annihilating all the useful and interesting bits to support pedantic interpretations of policy. It's all a bit pathetic really. No wonder Wikiepdia is dying! Wikidwitch (talk) 12:15, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh well at least you tried. Everything you did seemed perfectly reasonable and in line with WP policy, but sadly the deletionists will always win. I can quite understand why the author of these extracts hasn't contributed to Wikipedia again. It's the perfect way to drive away valuable contributors - stamp on everything they do.Cnbrb (talk) 13:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi. While I was closing the discussion, I considered ruling in his favor (I could, per WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:DUE) and might have done that if his tactic was not to offend the community. I think the reason that others ganged up on him was because of his confrontational tone. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:38, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank God you're here.14:12, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

A tactic to "offend the community"??!? Confrontational tone?? Ha ha! Oh dear, I am sorry if anyone was offended by anything I wrote, but seriously, I think someone's being a bit over-sensitive here. Still, thank you for confirming that the ruling was not to uphold WP policy, but just to punish another editor. Great work, keep it up! Over and out. Wikidwitch (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Hmm... You have so far complained about both opposite courses of action that I could have taken. You just have issues! You lost the discussion not because of what you said, but because of how you said it, and not in violation of the policy. In this world, what you say and how you say are equally important. Understand this and you will have a good life. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 20:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

A particular theme's name

There's a militaristic theme I remember being used in Return of the Jedi, during the rebel attack to the Death Star. It can be found in the most recent CD recording at the opening quarter of the cue "The Battle of Endor I". The theme has been used on several SW trailers and spots, that are mostly about battle prepatarion scenes, but I don't see it listed here. Does it have a name? Or is it just a generic action theme? Please contact on my page for information --Surten (talk) 05:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)Surten

Anakin's Theme in Episode III

The article states, " . . . single, tortured rendition in Episode III," regarding Anakin's Theme. Where in Episode III does this take place? 146.87.52.50 (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

No Meco? A glaring omission!

There is no mention of Meco's versions of the Star Wars soundtracks. This is a glaring omission. (btw. I'm not affiliated with the artist.) __meco (talk) 10:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism

Spotted in the first sentence "The music of Star Wars consists of the scores written for all six Star Wars films by composer **Run DMC**" Vandalism noted via ** Can't vouch for the rest of the entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horrgakx (talk • contribs) 15:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Most of the article is unreferenced. See WP:CITE for details. Any statement that is not backed up by a reliable source (e.g. a book or documentary but not a blog or a wiki) is not considered encyclopaedic. The article is in desperate need of cited sources; as it stands it's very interesting but not encyclopaedic. Given that citations were requested about 5 years ago, it's really time for this issue to be fixed or the unsourced material be deleted. I find the article interesting and would rather see it improved than deleted.

Have a look through the article and see what you can add as references. If you wrote anything, which books did you draw the information from? I'll be happy to help out if you're not sure how to add references. Cnbrb (talk) 17:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

By way of example, I have added over 10 references to the awards section; previously this section was entirely unreferenced. With references, the read can then double-check the statements in this article and that's what makes it encyclopaedic; without references, the statements of fact could be inaccurate, just someone's opinion or completely made up. Cnbrb (talk) 15:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Original research

Why and where does this article contain original research? How should it be cleaned up? Hyacinth (talk) 05:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

As above, references are always needed - if a published source is not cited next to a stated fact, it may be regarded as "original research". Please don't interpret this as an accusation in any way, it's just the way an encyclopaedia is supposed to work. There's a full explanation here. Again, happy to help if anyone's willing to look at sources. Cnbrb (talk) 17:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Tempo

I am confused by the lack of tempo descriptions in the article. For example, is the opening theme of Star Wars (1978) intended to be performed at a Presto or Allegro tempo? Adding in these details would be a great help to people desiring this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:5B0:2DFF:1EF0:0:0:0:38 (talk) 01:52, 4 April 2015 (UTC)