Talk:Stable vices

No one has the guts to say it?

Removed note because I ended up having time to address the issue. Countercanter (talk) 01:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Put back in a bit of stuff with a fact tag. This month's Equus just had a short article on the cribbing and stomach acid thing. Will add later, have other brushfires at the moment. (See Horses in warfare...) Montanabw^(talk) 03:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Source material

New article on topic:

• http://www.thehorse.com/articles/36130/dopamine-and-horses-learning-stereotypies-and-more

External links modified

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Thoughts on edits

There is room for discussion of whether this article is to be confined only to stereotypies or "vices" in general. Also, I did like the new image, but I am not sure we can verify the claim that "The curved shape of the bars is designed to reduce weaving at the stable door." My understanding of the design is that it allows the horse to look out or the stall, instead of the solid grate design that prevents it. A horse can still weave with that design, just not as much (for that matter, I've seen horses weave behind a solid-barred door too. But it's worth a discussion. Montanabw^(talk) 05:14, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I have to admit that I do not have a source for the shape of the bars being for that reason - but I have not looked for an RS. This was just my own belief - and so is very possibly OR.

Regarding "vices" and "stereotypies", I have no strong feeling whether these should be separated or not, but we need to make this clear in the opening sentences. By the way, there has been a long-term trend in animal welfare science to avoid the term "vice" as this implies it is the horse's/animal's "fault". If we are considering scope of the article, perhaps we should also consider the title. I do appreciate how widely used the term is with horse people. Please see [2]DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:13, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm good with just clarifying the terms, I did a little bit of editing to separate them out some... also to distinguish from misbehavior like bucking and rearing... Montanabw^(talk) 08:36, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Lead image

A horse in a stable with curved "V" shaped bars, often advertised as anti-weaving bars e.g. [1]

I disagree with the current lead image. It shows 3 equids grazing on pasture, which is so far removed from "stable vices" I think it is misleading. I boldly reverted this and replaced it with the image in this thread. An editor reverted this stating that my caption "The curved shape of the bars is designed to reduce weaving at the stable door." was not verifiable. Please do a Google search using "anti-weaving" and "bars". I suggest replacing the caption as "A horse in a stable with curved "V" shaped bars, often advertised as anti-weaving bars e.g. [3]" DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I will agree that it isn't great, other than that pasture is a good way to prevent vices from forming. I like the horse in the stall, except that as far as "anti-weaving bars," I shot you that video link on your talk -- and the horse is weaving over a gate with "anti-weaving" bars -- so there goes that theory. Also, we have a US/UK difference -- in the US, the individual box is a stall, and stables are used basically as a plural or a verb, but not singular for an individual box... and it is also interesting that the door design is called an "anti-weaving" door in the UK, as I had not heard it called such in the US -- I've usually seen it called a "yoke" [4], [5], [6] or sometimes a "v-door" [7]. I also did find this article: [8] which mentions a door yoke as a way to discourage weaving, but notes that it might not work. Maybe we can agree on a caption for the stabled horse that doesn't include a disputed claim? Montanabw^(talk) 08:34, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

By the way, some good sources: [9] and [10]. Montanabw^(talk) 08:34, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Also, for more pics, File:Beispiel_moderner_Boxenhaltung_Foto_Roewer&Rueb.jpg these guys look happy for stabled horses. Montanabw^(talk) 08:38, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up about the US/UK different terminology. I agree it does seem unsafe to have a lead image with a caption mentioning a disputed function. How about we have the horse looking out picture with the simple caption "Stabled or stalled horses may develop abnormal behaviours called stable vices" DrChrissy ^(talk) 18:29, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

I wonder if the image like that of the wood-chewing horse at the cribbing article would work better -- I'd like to see a horse exhibiting a vice -- that gray actually looks pretty happy... Montanabw^(talk) 22:20, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Here's some ideas:

• 
  This horse looks just bored, but good quality image
• 
  This horse looks good and pissed off
• 
  Kind of blurry, but looks bored and might be weaving
• 
  Indicates horses seeking interaction with one another, though they look happy
• 
  third horse down looks bored and bummed, the others are "meh" and look isolated

Masturbation

Masturbation is discussed in a paragraph which the opening sentence indicates the behaviour is undesirable. The section then goes on to say that masturbation is now considered as a normal behaviour. Is it really an undesireable behaviour? If it is normal behaviour, it probably does not belong in this article. DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

DrChrissy, given that I have actually witnesses people whip male horses right on the you-know-what for assorted not-tucking-it-back-up (including after urination(!)), I think it should be kept, though I'm open to rephrasing to note that it was previously viewed as a vice but isn't now. Go ahead and reword it you'd like. Montanabw^(talk) 22:18, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that. This is one of those tricky situations. What I (or others) consider to be normal behaviour, others might consider to be undesireable. I was hoping to gauge the feelings of horse people because I recognise that different types of animal carer can have very different feelings on such matters. DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I once knew a woman who used to tap her male horse on the hip and say, "Put that back up". It seemed to work. Also, my gelding does this whenever he gets hot. I don't care, but I can understand how some people find it gross or how it might be tough to explain to kids. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:02, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I can understand it too, but isn't that one of the reasons for keeping animals as pets - so that our children can learn about things such as life and death...and masturbation! DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:28, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Sources

More sources for content: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/38285/equine-stereotypies-vice-or-coping-mechanism