Talk:Spice and Wolf/Archive 1

Archive 1

Re: Official English translation

The official English translation of the title is "Spice and Wolf" as seen at the series' official website on goods produced: (near the bottom). Should we change the article title to the English title, or leave it as it?--十八 09:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I vote to leave it until there is an official English release. Make a redirect, though. That title is not grammatically correct, and would probably be changed if it were licensed. And there are at least two other English titles; the website domain name and the Merchant Meats Spicy Wolf thing from the novel cover. Doceirias (talk) 11:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that Spice and Wolf is actually in the ending credits to the show, I'm no longer opposed to a move. We can always move it again if it comes out here. Doceirias (talk) 05:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Moved. --SeizureDog (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

"Wolf and Spice" certainly is closer to the original meaning, and sounds better to me at least. (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

They have the exact same meaning as each other 81.132.199.176 (talk) 03:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes the meanings are the same, but the word or is different, so there was some confusion as to which one to use, but it seems no one has any problems with Spice and Wolf.--十八 06:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Holo or Horo?

When I watched the anime, I've realized that Holo's name is pronounced as Horo. I know that the limitation of Japanese language prevents it from being spoken as english word 'Holo', but I wonder if Holo is official romanization of the character. Before reading this article, I've always thought her name was 'Horo'. Can you guys provide any link or source that states her name in romanization is 'Holo' instead of 'Horo'? Thanks! :) Stevefis (talk) 23:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and change it to Horo; if someone has a source on the Holo spelling, feel free to change it back and reference said source when you do. Doceirias (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, all the characters in this series have katakana names because the characters are not Japanese, and we're not supposed to assume they are supposed to be written as transliterations. If that was the case, then we would have Rorensu instead of Lawrence, but I don't see anyone complaining about his romanization.

If further proof is needed, two file names at the official website have it as 'Holo': [1], [2], and similarly, two file names have it as 'Lawrence': [3], [4]. If you accept the spelling of Lawrence, I see no reason why you should not also accept the spelling of Holo.--十八 01:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because Lawrence is a common name, and Holo isn't? It's not a matter of accepting it, just a matter of it being verifiable. I'll add the reference in; that should keep it from being questioned again. Doceirias (talk) 02:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah.. It's like Engrish stuff (I don't wanna offend any Japanese or other non-english speaking people here), where Japanese people have problem pronouncing 'L'. I guess it's thus normal for the seiyus to pronounce the name as 'Horo'.Stevefis (talk) 02:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion a picture name on a website run by Mediaworks for Imagin and put up by some random web designer grunt is not conclusive proof. If you visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese it will show you that no Japanese characters translate into a romanized lo, only the character "ろ" which translates into ro. Since this is the most common translation for the actual Japanese character, I would suggest it be used here as well. Also, if you do a web search for +Horo +"Wolf and Spice" (Or Spice and Wolf or Ookami to Koushinryou or whatever you prefer) then search for +Holo +"Wolf and Spice" (same as before) you will find that Horo brings up over 5x more web hits. Thus not only is Horo the most widely accepted translation by Japanese linguists, but it is also the most widely used way to refer to her by fans and followers of the show/novels/mangas. In order to avoid confusion, I would suggest a change to Horo as those reasons to me seem much stronger than what a random web designer names a picture as. Ultenth (talk) 08:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The what do you call the second reference next to Holo's name in her bio? Scroll down and you'll see Holo right there. This isn't about what's more widely used; it's about being more correct. None of these characters are Japanese, so why romanize their names into Japanese script? Again, if you accept Lawrence instead of Rorensu, then why not just accept Holo instead of Horo? Next thing I know you'll be pushing for Kuroe instead of Chloe.--十八 08:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That translation was added by ZakZak, which is not an official reference. Also all other names belong to humans, and are commonly used European names. She is neither human nor from the same area. When was the last time you heard of someone named Holo in Europe, Horo on the other hand actually is occasionally used in Japa.? Regardless, we won't have 100% confirmation of the correct Romanization unless someone actually asks Isuna Hasekura what he thinks or a DVD/Book/etc. comes out with Roman lettering. And even if he says it's Holo it's probably too late already because fans everywhere are already calling her Horo on just about every related website. All having it as Holo on the wiki-page is going to do is confuse people and prevent people from accurately looking up important information regarding the character. I would guarentee you that in 6 months maybe 1% of the online community will still refer to her as Holo. If you want to be obstinante and have the wiki page be one of the few sites that refer to her as Holo out of some sort of obstinate pride, be my guest, takes too much energy to argue with wiki-fanatics. Ultenth (talk) 09:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm trying to be consistent. Why should Holo be singled out only because she's not human or not from around where all the other characters are around? She's still from this series, and for her name to be the only one that is romanized transliterally only because her kana is written that way is either due to ignorance of the anime community at large, or the fact that the people who first started talking about the series chose to romanize it as Horo and the name stuck. Either way I don't see the Holo spelling winning out, so I guess I'll be one of those 1% you have spoken of.--十八 10:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia article should remain faithful to the Author's or Producer's Opinions rather than what majority of people think on the web. Even if fans are adapting the name 'Horo', it will be only matter of time if there is any official announcement from author about the name of her before the fans respect the author's opinion. Just note, majority of bloggers that I know and ANN refers the character as 'Holo'. I think that the link on the official website of her picture is a significant proof that the name 'Holo' is the one that is being used among the Anime producers. (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/assets/images/anime/character_holo.gif) If there is any official source that uses the english word 'Horo' for her name, I would respect that source, but I wouldn't accept an arguement that is just based on majority of fans, because that is not what wiki is about. Stevefis (talk) 04:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The only source of this is a filename? You know, even if that's the official website that's not much of a source for the name. Since the file was probably named by the webmaster 130.18.120.236 (talk) 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Find a source for Horo (somewhere official) and there's probably room for that argument. Doceirias (talk) 06:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What sense does it make to have it pronounced Horo, written as Horo, and then written in English as Holo? Are we supposed to repeat their romanization mistake just because it's official? 130.18.120.236 (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. That's how sourcing works. R L switches are hardly unusual, anyway. A name like this could end up either way in the translation. It's not more a romanization mistake than Kuroe->Chloe; simply a decision somebody made. Someone else might make a different decision if the anime or novels ever get translated here, and then the article will be changed to reflect that. But we can't change things just because of personal preference; this isn't a fansite, after all. Doceirias (talk) 06:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It has been noted that "Horo" is an ancient Ainu word for "wolf" though, which seems to place it in a different category than names which have been transliterated into Japanese in the first place. The only reason for using "Holo" appears to be a single file name, which seems too insignificant to have been run past the author before use. As has been noted above, normal practice for romanisation of her name gives "Horo" rather than "Holo", and given that "Horo" is an actual word this is what should be used. 193.1.100.7 (talk) 01:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

All that is is original research and conjecture on the part of an AnimeSuki forum member. There is verifiable evidence of her name being romanized as "Holo", and Wikipedia is formed on the basis of finding official references for everything that is likely to be challenged. Give me an official source that romanizes it as "Horo" and then we'll talk.--十八 01:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Presumably you're not suggesting we also use "Kuroe" instead of "Chloe" as is the case on your link? 193.1.100.7 (talk) 01:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Only because there's no dispute over her romanization, and that fact that Kuroe --> Chloe is an obvious transliteration. Not to mention verifiably in line with the Wikipedia page for クロエ or related pages like ja:クロエ・セヴィニー and ja:クロエ (ブランド). The off-shoot of this, however, is that the Japanese Wikipedia page on ホロ has the spelling as Jolo, but I doubt you'll find anyone wanting to call her that.--十八 01:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Jolo" would actually be pronounced the same as "Holo", but obviously any words with either the sound "Holo" or "Horo" transliterate into Japanese the same way, so the name of a foreign location doesn't really tell us anything. 193.1.100.7 (talk) 02:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I just spent several minutes trying to find any instances of Chloe romanized as Kuroe, and was unable to. Holo, however, appears all over the source code for the pages. On the other hand, I'm getting sick of changing this back because people never read the talk page. Perhaps we should consider just going with common usage until such time as an official translation is established. Doceirias (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

On that page linked as evidence? Click on Chloe. 193.1.100.7 (talk) 02:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so not the official site. Why are we linking to that one instead of the anime official site? Doceirias (talk) 02:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

We used to, but the cite to her image on the official website was removed in favor of the other link.--十八 02:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Can't hurt to double source; it's also mentioned in the code for the page. Doceirias (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Technically neither of those are official sources. One is just a url, the other is a support page at an unaffiliated site. Furthermore, given that all standard Romanizations translate the second syllable as "ro", not "lo", (except in cases, of course, where the original word was a Japanization of a western word such as "Lawrence" or "Chloe"), and keeping in mind the claim that "horo" is ainu for "wolf", a good case can be made that both those unofficial sources are simply in error. To truly resolve this debate we'd have to get an in-depth answer from the creators, something that's unlikely unless it's licensed and dubbed in English. Trevor (talk) 08:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

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(Unindent) I don't agree at all. That would make this entire debate pointless. I guarantee that by April after everyone stops watching the anime that no one's going to care about how her name is spelled. I've seen it happen time and time again on Wikipedia that there's a ton of editing going on for a series article while the anime is airing, and then right after it ends 90% of the previous editors abandon it, and that leaves established editors to come in and clean it up, if it wasn't already constantly cleaned up in the process to begin with. If we have evidence of her romanization, then we should use it. In another year, let's say, very little people will care about this series unless it gets licensed in that time, and if that happens, then we can gladly use the romanization that the licensor gives as either Horo or Holo, but until that point, we should keep it as Holo.--十八 01:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I mean, I do see your point. But if I were translating the series, I'd use Horo, purely because it sounds better, and I'm beginning to feel like an idiot fighting over something I don't even agree with, even if the reasoning behind it is sound, and the reasoning against it mostly uninformed gibberish. Doceirias (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not uninformed. The setting is not in Japan, and these characters are not Japanese, so why should we romanize their names as regular Japanese names? If we choose Lawrence over Rorensu and Chloe over Kuroe, there's no reason not to accept Holo over Horo. But then we get into debates like "But Holo is not human" or "ホロ is not a common name like Lawrence or Chloe" or any other thing the fans can come up with. Furthermore, these names are written in katakana, a Japanese script specifically used for foreign words and writing roman script in Japanese script, which is more evidence of an obvious departure from Japanese terms or Japanese ways, or even this point about "Horo" being an old Ainu word for wolf, which the author probably chose for that very reason, but Holo is not Ainu, and they are not even in Japan, so there's no reason to use that as backup evidence for a claim to use Horo over Holo.--十八 01:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that would be the sound reasoning. Arguing that ろ has to be ro for a non-Japanese character is the uninformed gibberish. Doceirias (talk) 02:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite understand. Are you calling my argument "uninformed gibberish"?--十八 02:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Is your argument that her name should be Horo because that is how it is spelled in Japanese? Then I am not calling your argument uninformed. Doceirias (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to responding in a round-about way. Since my argument is that ホロ should be romanized as Holo, I can only assume you are calling my argument uninformed gibberish. I'm just trying to see what your opinion is on the matter, but it would seem you prefer Horo now as the spelling.--十八 02:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I can see the grammar trick I overlooked the first time. I can see how the first phrase may have been confusing the second time, but now you're just being obtuse. Your arguments are sound. The arguments against them are twaddle. I prefer Horo for purely aesthetic reasons, which I am perfectly willing to admit qualifies as nothing but twaddle. The only point I ever wanted to make was that I can't be bothered changing the page back any more. Never meant to go four rounds against your reading comprehension. Doceirias (talk) 04:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

All you had to do was answer "no" to my initial question because I was unsure what you meant due to how you worded that first sentence, instead of answering with another question like you did. But that's fine that you prefer Horo. I still prefer Holo, and I will still preserve Holo's name on this article unless I have a good reason not to.--十八 06:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of a similar situation with Lalamon, because we were also using filenames to help find the official spelling, but didn't always help us. What I personally learned in that situation is to not even bother forcing one way or another, because eventually it'd become clear. Not sure if that helps anything, but I thought I'd throw it out there since it reminded me. -- Ned Scott 04:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems like this discussion is getting pretty long. :P But I think, just like Ned Scott said above, using file names in order to fin the official spelling is a bad idea. No offense, but the Japanese are infamous for their "Engrish" mistakes even in official documents (Election vs Erection) and even official websites (no doubt "Official" TV channel/Anime Studio websites have those errors pretty often), and so there is a chance that the file name was incorrectly named by some any webmaster assigned to make the page. Same thing with Chloe being Kuroe... while Lawrence's spelling is pretty obvious because there isn't any other variation for that foreign name.
Conclusion? There isn't one single "OFFICIAL" romanized document for character names YET.
>>>>>>> I would suggest going by the most popular spelling (Horo) and just like the Lalamon page, write the alternative spelling [Holo] in parenthesis. --Kimatg (talk) 04:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

To me, using Lalamon is a bad example since on the talk page there's evidence that the official dub use of the name was Raramon, yet the article still retains it's Lalamon spelling for some reason despite there being an official English localized spelling. I might agree with you if that article was instead Raramon, but seeing as it isn't, and that article is merely going off the popular use of the name instead of the official spelling (which is against project convention last I checked), I don't see any reason to agree to using Horo in favor of Holo.--十八 07:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Same problem with Lalamon is that using Web page (especially Japanese) names as a reference for the "Official" spelling. Because there is no OFFICIAL romanized spelling on Lalamon/Raramon, and the Wiki article has been named with the most frequently used name. Same thing with Horo, because there is no OFFICIAL romanized spelling, go with the most frequently used name. I think it has already been said that there are more people in favor of "Horo" than "Holo", not counting all the anime fansubs and english anime communities.

And I did suggest using both spelling alternatives did I? Since Horo does not have her own wiki article, shouldn't be that troublesome changing the "mainly used" spelling variation.

No offense intended, but 十八, you seem a bit stubborn in replying to all these proposals posted above by many users. Please try to think BOTH ways, not only your preferences. After all, Wikipedia is "Everyone's" encyclopedia, isn't it? :) --Kimatg (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but it's not just a file name; two separate websites related to the anime have given the spelling as Holo, and so far none have given the romanization as Horo. Since we are supposed to use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet, which I am merely attempting to uphold, it should stay as Holo. Find even one official website which uses the romanization as Horo and I promise I'll back down. And I do realize that your argument is meant to favor the majority and what people prefer, but didn't you just tell me to "please try to think both way, not only your preferences"? If I may be so forward, I believe that the Horoists are trying to push their agenda in the face of official guidelines like this one I have linked earlier in this reply. I also realize, Kimatg, that you have less than 50 edits to your name, and I believe it takes time to get well accustomed to how Wikipedia works.--十八 20:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

My main point with the Lalamon example was to not worry about it, because even official spellings and stuff like that can often go back and forth. In a few weeks or a month it should be clearer which one to use. And if anyone is wondering, both Raramon and Lalamon were used in official English products, but Lalamon is used because that turned out to be the spelling for all the dub-related stuff (though there really isn't any mention of this on the talk page) -- Ned Scott 05:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I tried to read this whole discussion, but ended up just skimming a lot of it. Here is my conclusion: I can see no evidence for the spelling "Horo". There is strong evidence for the spelling "Holo" (it's spelled that way on the official Tokyo MX website). As ホロ can be easily romanized either way, I would go with "Holo". --Eruhildo (talk) 23:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that a poster on AnimeSuki claimed here that the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of Newtype USA spells her name Horo. Can anyone verify this? -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if Newtype USA translated it as Horo, I would just ignore it as it is coming from the 3rd party and it is not directly coming from the official words. Besides, they translated the title as 'Wolf and Spice', so I wouldn't put too much trust in the Newtype's journalist.Stevefis (talk) 21:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think AnimeSuki is considered a valid reference anyway, is it? I think I remember seeing refs to it removed on other articles. --Eruhildo (talk) 22:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I wasn't proposing that AnimeSuki might be a usable reference (it isn't for most things, due to being a forum), but that the original Newtype USA article might be. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 22:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, here is a source for the Ainu word for wolf which is actually "horokeu." No way to know whether Holo/Horo's name was really inspired by it, though. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 22:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is probably a trivial matter, but let's try not to drag our own preference into this. The Japanese are known for their notorious Engrish, so taking their translation as your Bible isn't a wise idea, even when Wiki has stated to use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet. On the other hand, third-party translation *cough* Newtype *cough* doesn't sit well with some people. So that leaves us then. There's already an article on the romanization of Japanese (the debate over her being a God/non-human doesn't quite shed much light on the matter as it's still too dependent on your own preference) + "Horo" is the Ainu word for wolf (this may well be a totally unrelated point if the author isn't aware of it himself, but still worthy of note) + Almost every fansubbing group (and I'm not exaggerating) has chosen to go with "Horo", so >99% of the community has become used to it now. I also agree with someone's idea that Wikipedia is Everyone's encyclopedia, it was not set out to serve the anime producers, nor was anime in that matter. There are inconsistencies even within ANN ("Holo" in the Plot summary and "Horo" in the Japanese cast section. On a slightly different note, I've spotted many grammar and spelling mistakes on ANN over the years). 十八, you have shown great perseverance in order to remain loyal to the original work, for that you deserve our respect. Maybe when Spice and Wolf comes out in DVDs, they'll go with "Holo". But let's halt it right there. Were you in the author's/producers' shoes, would you rather do something that could go against most of your audience-whom you're supposed to be serving, especially when you're not exactly an expert in the subject of romanization or English itself? You still have the freedom to do things your own way, and it's not like I or anyone can stop you. But if you somehow have a change of mind, please know that a lot of people will gladly be in your support. --Diamondtriangle (talk) 12:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Look, I realize the trivialness of this debate just as much as everyone else. I have even added an entry at WP:LAME under the spelling heading because I think it's so bad. But I still stand by my views in that no official source has yet romanized ホロ as "Horo", and when a romanization has been given, it has always been "Holo". I have already stated that if even one official source gives the spelling as "Horo" I will back down. The Newtype article you have mentioned is from a third party source uninvolved with either the series' production, or it's potential licensing, so it's no better than how fansubbers have dubbed her as "Horo". Now, while one of the sites supplied for the "Holo" spelling is also from a third party in Japan, the official website even used "Holo" in the url of the image of her, not once, but twice. If it was just some webdesigner's whim, I believe there'd be a good chance they wouldn't have been consistent, but they were, so I believe that leads credibility to the spelling of Holo.--十八 18:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're dead set on taking Japanese translation as your Bible then (lol, I can't even contact the author to ask him about this, but even if I do, I'm not sure he's even any good). Well... this is practically going nowhere, you won't change your mind, nor will the fandom community (including those who don't even know about this) . I won't be needing Wikipedia for information regarding Spice and Wolf anytime soon, seeing that the fansubbers and other 3rd-party websites *cough* Animesuki *cough* have already done a wonderful job of providing it. Best regards --Diamondtriangle (talk) 04:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

...yeah seriously it looks like this is the only place (apart from "official" file "URLs") where Horo is spelled as Holo and ONLY Holo, not even mentioning "also spelled as Horo" as I mentioned before..*cough* Well, whichever way things will turn out, good luck, Juhachi. Kimatg (talk) 02:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No, you suggested we go with Horo and then say "also spelled as Holo" which I disagree with. What you are suggesting is that if the majority says it's right, then it's right, no questions asked. But that is a situation where majority rules, and I'm sad to say, but Wikipedia is not a democracy.--十八 03:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Since it really doesn't matter, for the time being using filenames seems to be a reasonable tie breaker. It did throw me at first, since I'm also watching the fansubs and am used to seeing it as Horo. However, that's a one time thing, and once you know that "Horo = Holo", the article is just as useful. It really doesn't matter either way. -- Ned Scott 06:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The manual of style says to use the most popular form. Since Holo is not explicitly official yet, there is no real backing to it. Horo, of course, doesn't have any backing either, but since is it a bit more popular that is what should be used. Someone said to add "(also spelled as Holo/Horo)", and that seems a good idea. Many people care about this series, and it will probably grow from more merchandise and a possible next season. Zeedox (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

But that MOS entry directly conflicts with point one at WP:MOS-JP#Names of modern figures. And while admittedly Holo isn't exactly a real modern figure, she was still created in the modern times. So which MOS is more right then?--十八 07:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

One MOS shouldn't overrule another. I tried to fix the conflicting issue by making an exception for fictional characters, but other editors disagreed with me (see this discussion). If you really want to end this discussion once and for all, start a discussion on the WT:MOS-AM about whether to use the official name or the most common name and what to do when there is no official name. Let me warn you though, it will probably be longer and hairier than this one. --Eruhildo (talk) 21:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I might just take you up on that offer. But what really gets me is that multiple third-party companies use the Holo spelling when selling the same product: [5], [6], and then again for another figure of her: [7]. Comparatively, I found one that uses the Horo spelling. At this point, I'd even stoop so low as to attempt to email the original author to get his take on it, though I doubt he'd respond.--十八 23:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It already has both Holo and Horo. ClanCC _{(T / ^C)} 07:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer “Horo” because I was used to the fansub. However if the funsuber had translated her name to "Maria" everyone was asking to put “Maria” on this article as well, with the pretext of it was how everyone knew her. I think the official Romanization is what matters and, until today, the majority of the companies are opting for "Holo". Ofcourse the majority doesent’ mather but since the official companies are among them it will support the “Holo” cause even more. "Horo" is already inside parenthesis (indicating the Romanization) so there's no need to place it again on the text description and, above all, in bold. I would remove that, it's redundant. Anyway it’s just a matter of time since, eventually, this anime will be released in English region and they will opt for one of those. When that time comes “Horo” will be removed completely. 84.90.24.156 (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

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Perhaps I am strange, but I prefer Holo simply because 'Horo' sounds like 'whore' to me. --Gwern (contribs) 20:43 8 May 2008 (GMT)

It is indeed strange if you confuse Horo with the word "whore" as the sound of it is much different in the series. The spelling "Horo" has at least some mythological background as seen in the discussion above. Another thing is that the name is spoken out more with a "r" than "l" in it. I'm very aware that the japanese language doesn't differ between those two, but to my ear it sounds clearly like "Horo". 87.154.47.72 (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What's amusing to me, is that knowing the R L mistakes are so extremely common by Japanese people, even ones fairly well versed in romanization (and as stated earlier even in official government correspondance), that there is much of an issue at all. I understand wanting to be legitimate, but if your source is incorrect to begin with because they are not fluent with proper romanization, then it kind of defeats the purpose when you are using a source that is faulty. Just watch a single episode of the show and listen to the characters pronounce her name and it's extremely easy to see that it would be more properly romanized as Horo, and not Holo, as the word is said something along the lines of whor-ro. I think many Japanese people simply find l more aesthetically pleasing (or just more standardized to use) than r, so they choose to use that when transliterating, even when r would be more suitable given the actual pronunciation. Ultenth (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course it sounds like "Horo", because Japanese have problem pronouncing an "l". Plus, look at the section below for additional sources for Holo if you haven't already.--十八 23:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is no 'l' pronounciation in Japanese at all. All they have is really 'ra', 're', 'ro', 'ru', 'ri'. For example, if you watch Japanese baseball broadcast, the word 'ball' is pronounced and also written as 'boru' . (Thus, Holo is pronounced and written as Horo) Stevefis (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it'll be decided soon; Kadokawa USA just licensed the anime.--十八 02:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Although we will still not able to figure out the english name in the original Japanese version of Spice and Wolf, we can at least put the American version of Holo's name and then put the Japanese name (ホロ, Horo) in parenthesis. Stevefis (talk) 05:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever Kadokawa has them use will be the official English name, applying to the Japanese version as well as the American version. The page will remain exactly as it is, unless they use the Horo spelling. Doceirias (talk) 06:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like things just went from good to great; the light novels have been licensed by Yen Press, so hopefully we'll finally put this issue to rest within the next month or so.--十八 03:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't you know it, Yen Press opens their website on Spice and Wolf, but don't name Lawrence or Holo in the description. And here I was thinking this debate was finally over with.--十八 23:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think Yen Press is aware of this naming issue. I guess they haven't started translating the light novel yet as it is to be released on 2009.Stevefis (talk) 23:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean they're not ready to jump the gun until they are sure what they are going to go with? You're right in that they probably have come across the Holo/Horo preference debate, but usually I'd think that licensing companies wouldn't care that much; I mean, just look what happened with Lordgenome.--十八 23:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's my take on this. It's undoubtably Horo. My basis is that Horo is the name of a Bulgarian dance, therefore, her name would be an actual word. Notice if you listen to the music of Spice & Wolf, that is has the feeling of Gypsy/Slavic music. This may be a poor arguement, but I find it the most Viable arguement for her name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.247.81 (talk) 04:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

But the novels came first, so any ties the music may have with a supposed Bulgarian dance is coincidence. The type of music used in the anime probably sounds that way because of the medieval setting, in any case.--十八 04:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Really it should be Horo anyway. Here's why:

1. Horo is an actual Japanese word. A link to Spice and Wolf is listed on its disambiguation page, while the page for Holo does not mention or link to this article.
2. Not ALL rs in Japanese names should be changed to ls upon romanization.
3. Nearly the entire Spice and Wolf fanbase uses "Horo."
4. The majority of users support changing "Holo" to "Horo" in the article.

Kirmuii (talk) 21:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

1. What Wikipedia articles link to this one is meaningless to this spelling issue (there's a guideline that says that somewhere, but I can't find it right now).
2. Absolutely true.
3. In that case, "Horo" should be used per WP:MOS-AM#Characters.
4. Not quite as good of a reason as the last one, but still a valid argument.

I really could care less what spelling is used as long as guidelines are followed and it's consistent throughout the article. Though all things considered, I think "Horo" has a better case than "Holo", despite the likehood of "Holo" being the official spelling. --Eruhildo (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

1. There may be a single word in Japanese pronounced 'horo' (幌), but that really has no bearing on the character name since her name is written in katakana, denoting a foreign word, or at least non-Japanese, because that is how katakana is used in Japanese.
2. Yes, but in this case there's a perfectly good reason why that should be the case. You can have your Horo if you also want your Rorensu, because his name is also originally spelt in katakana (ロレンス). Even if ロレンス can be "easily" romanized to 'Lawrence', why not have just as an easy romanization of ホロ into 'Holo'?
3. Just because some fans use Horo does not mean Wikipedia should to, especially when there's an official spelling for Holo already established in the article. In my experience, official trumps "what fans like" any day, and if you don't think so, ask the project at WT:ANIME.
4. What majority? There are those on the Horo side, and those on the Holo side, but if there weren't enough people on the Holo side, then do you think we'd have settled for Holo at this point in time?

So why don't we just wait until the novels are released by Yen Press and then we can end this debate for good.--十八 22:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I just found an official good of Spice and Wolf and they clearly show 'Holo' on it. Here are the links: 1st, 2nd. If you go to bottom of this official website, you can find the same product there. Will this bring end to this dispute? If the products with Holo spelling are licensed officially and also listed on official websites, doesn't that mean the creator of Wolf and Spice endorses "Holo" spelling instead of "Horo" as there is not a single official product with Horo spelling on it. P.S: I just realized that Juhachi found the same product in English websites a while ago and it is shown below. Stevefis (talk) 23:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

As Eruhildo said, WP:MOS-AM#Characters clearly states "Characters should be identified by their most commonly known name, as per Wikipedia's naming conventions. This may not necessarily be the same as the official name(s)." Kirmuii (talk) 00:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

But there's a very nice loop hole in that statement. How do you accurately and not without any form of bias prove to me and others that "Horo" is the "most commonly known name"? The fact is, you really can't, just as I can't prove that Holo is more "commonly known", but I can prove that "Holo" is used in official contexts, as Stevefis stated above, and other resources below have shown. And no, Google shouldn't be used in debates per WP:GOOGLE.--十八 02:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

In the anime-manga MOS, it states that the article names should be based on the official translation or romanization, if available. I just went there and posted in the discussion of the article that the character naming should be done in the same manner as article naming. I hope that the character naming will be based updated based on that. Updated: The WP:MOS-AM#Characters page has just been updated. Please have a look at it.Stevefis (talk) 04:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Finally - I thought we did that ages ago. In that case, the spelling should be "Holo" unless the novels show otherwise. --Eruhildo (talk) 03:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree (and I believe that the character naming discussion was spurred on because of this debate, if I recall correctly). And might I add that this has taken up an astounding 45KB of data on a simple difference between an r and an l.--十八 04:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

But in all honesty, lets face it. Horo sounds a lot better then Holo. With Horo, I know exactly how to say it, and it sounds pretty, imo. But with Holo, I'm trying to figure out "Should I pronounce it 'Hollow', or 'hoe-low'?" I also pronounce it the way the voice actors for the show, and the writer himself pronounces it. Horo. On top of that, Horo is an actual northern European word, and would make sense for Horo, who comes from Yoitsu, which is described as a land in the far north. That's my 2 cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.10.153 (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

On the official homepage of US licensee Kadokawa Pictures, http://www.kadokawapicturesusa.com/2008/04/spice_wolf.php, the name is written Holo. -- ３２４７ (talk) 20:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for finding and posting the link here. :) Now, I guess this will conclude the Holo vs Horo controversy. Stevefis (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It's OVER, finally. Now we can get on with our lives.--十八 00:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Unindent break 3

I really, really, really don't want to bring this discussion up again, but it's bound to happen. It seems our good friends at Yen Press have finally given names to the previously-unnamed characters in the blurb on their website for the novels, and have unfortunately named the heroine Horo (I say unfortunately not because of my previous arguments for the use of 'Holo', but because it complicates this discussion even more than it already is, if that were even possible). So, seeing as how this is in direct contrast with the Holo spelling given by Kadokawa USA last November (and the fact that there is no instance of the Japanese ever using the 'Horo' romanization), and that the novels are the primary work, we might as well discuss the new developments. Bear well in mind that while I have been championing the 'Holo' spelling since day 1, I did say above, and I quote myself: ...though of course if the English-translated light novels use the Horo spelling, we'll use that from then on. Further, I am quoted to say Find even one official website which uses the romanization as Horo and I promise I'll back down. I still stand by what I said, but I would like the opinions of the rest of the members of this huge discussion.

I will also add the bit from Wikipedia:MOS-AM#Characters which states: Characters should be identified by the names used in the official English releases of the series. If there are multiple English releases, such as both a manga and anime, use the one that is best known and that has contributed most to the work's becoming known in the English-speaking world (usually the primary work). It could be argued that more people are going to be exposed to the anime simply because the anime is more accessible and well-known than the novels, though at this point that's just conjecture.--十八 07:39, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I would say in the case of novels the anime is typically the better know. However, "Horo" seems to be the better know romanization from what I've seen, so it's probably the better choice here. Plus it's not like the article doesn't mention the alternate romanization. --Eruhildo (talk) 03:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It look like Yen Press also decided to use the official spellings of the Japanese versions: Kraft Lawrence and Holo, which is a trend followed by every American companies. (Kadokawa USA, Funimation, etc) See [8] Stevefis (talk) 00:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It might be pointless to post this, but the anime spells it as Holo as well. In episode 4 of the second season Holo signs her name as such. screenshot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.147.182 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping that would be enough to entice the IPs to stop editing it back to Horo, but I guess I was wrong.--十八 19:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I read on the tvtropes information, that original author wants Horo instead of Holo and it's Japanese producers who are douchebags, but I have no source for that. It would make sense, anyways, since Holo version is pure crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.194.169.154 (talk) 01:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The author told Yen Press he preferred Holo. At this point anyone disagreeing simply doesn't respect the author's intentions. Doceirias (talk) 17:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Wheat vs Barley

From what I heard from the people who read the light novel of Spice and Wolf, the word 麦(mugi) is used to refer barley. In the novel, the word '小麦' is specifically used to refer bread that is made from wheat flour. In addition, I don't see a single word of 小麦 (komugi, wheat) used in the japanese version of this article. So I think if we want to remain faithful to the original light novel, I think we should call the cereal that is being used as the main theme in the story as 'barley' instead of 'wheat'. Strangely, from the drawing from the manga and the anime, the cereals resembles more wheat than barley as they have less hair on them. My speculation is that this was due to the misinterpretation of the original light novel. I don't wanna change the whole 'wheat' to 'barley' right now, but I'd like to hear opinions from people who have actually read the Japanese light novel. Thanks! Stevefis (talk) 04:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The word mugi can refer to wheat, barley, rye, or oats. It's a catch all phrase for a number of different grains with similar appearances. At least, according to my dictionary and the Japanese Wikipedia article. I don't think it's worth changing. Doceirias (talk) 04:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have know that fact before doing some research into this matter, but the fact that bothers me is that the author uses 小麦 to specifically refer to wheat, then it's very likely that 麦 would mean a specifically cereal of 'barley'. Still, I don't really understand why only the 'wheats' are drawn in the anime and manga, yet refer it as 'mugi' rather than 'komugi'. I'd really like to hear opinion from people who have read the actual light novel in Japanese. Until then I won't make any change to the article regarding this matter. Stevefis (talk) 04:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have read the novels, in Japanese. I just don't think these words have specific meanings like you're thinking they do. It's like referring to all soda as Coke. I think the difference with the bread is simply a matter of habitual usage. When referring to the grain, you call it mugi; when referring to the flour, you use a slightly more specific term, just because that's what it says on the bag. Unless a native Japanese speaker want to correct me, I don't think this is anything to worry about. Doceirias (talk) 06:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have just learned that the word 'Oomugi' is also used to refer 'barley'. Still, I have just asked someone to send an e-mail to the original author of the novel. Hopefully, the author will send a response to it.Stevefis (talk) 05:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Those were Barley, but in current episode when here put the grains in a leather bag for her, i think that is when u can refer it to Wheat. Chimasternmay (talk) 06:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

600 vs. 250

I knew this would come up eventually, so might as well start a discussion on it. Originally, I found via a review of the first novel that she was 600 years old, but later found a conflicting AnimeSuki forums entry which says she was 250 years old. Seeing as they both seemed to know what they were talking about, I chose the lesser of the two at the time, and hoped that it would be corrected once I read the manga, or the anime came out. Now, having read the opening chapters of the manga and seen the first two anime episodes, I know there is no mention of her age in those media, so the novels are the only place left to look. Seeing as how the first link is an actual review from Andrew Cunningham (from Seven Seas Entertainment; [9]), I guess I should have gone with him in the first place. If anyone else here has actually read the first novel, then it would be helpful to come forth and say if she really is 600 or 250 years old.--十八 00:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yoitsu village perished about 600 years ago (vol.1, p.41), so Holo is more than 600 years old.--Swind (talk) 07:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation.--十八 07:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to know I didn't just make that number up. I did actually sit here flipping through the book, but couldn't find it... Doceirias (talk) 10:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I've read off of various websites (ie animenewsnetwork) that Horo is 250 years old. Is there a contradiction between the manga and the anime? Intranetusa (talk) 05:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Read above; it's been confirmed she's over 600 years old. Her age is not given in the anime, or the early parts of the manga as far as I know.--十八 06:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Episode 7

Actually, I think it should count as part of the show, not an OAV - especially since it has an episode number. I started a thread about it over here Doceirias (talk) 03:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

But it is, and always will be an OVA since it never actually aired on TV; read my comments in the other thread though.--十八 04:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Genre

Last thing I mean is to be argueing with you constantly, Juhachi. It has been established that genres are not original research if there is consensus that a show fits a genre. I believe Fantasy and Romance are highly misleading, missing the primary driving force behind the story. Spice and Wolf is an economic thriller - a thriller plot structure revolving around trade and financal transations. If anyone has a better phrase for that, I'd be happy to hear it, but I'd like to see a genre that actually reflects the show, not the subplots. Doceirias (talk) 20:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm doubtful. It may be a thriller or drama or adventure, but 'economic thriller'? Googling for that, it seems to show up in the occasional book title but that's about it. There's nothing wrong with simply not mentioning details about what sort of adventure or thriller it is; Tom Clancy novel pages don't go 'American political drama/military techno-action thriller'. They're just 'thriller novel'. --Gwern (contribs) 20:50 17 March 2008 (GMT)

Good point; I'd be fine with adding just thriller. I think we're given leeway to be more specific if there's consensus, though; there was a similar discussion on the Death Note genres. Doceirias (talk) 21:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Putting the genre as "economic thriller" tells me nothing. I've never seen the show, so seeing that makes me just ask, "What on earth is an 'economic thriller'?" I would say just "thriller" is fine. --Eruhildo (talk) 00:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Romance is questionable, but I don't see the problem with describing it as Fantasy - it may not be the standard swords-and-sorcery fare one associates with that term, but it's still a suitably fantastic, medieval-themed setting. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 03:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no issues with either genre being there; they both fit, but they both seem to be missing the main thrust of the novels. (The anime plays down the economic thriller aspects, and plays up the rom com stuff.) Doceirias (talk) 03:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Eruhildo in that if I knew nothing of this series, I would ask "What is economic thriller supposed to mean?" Google turns up nothing, and the article doesn't explain it either (plus there's no Wiki article for it either) so it makes no sense to the casual observer. I'm fine with it just being "triller" though. And Doceirias, I do not try to argue with you either, and liked it much better before since these arguments have just come up in the past month where previously we had no disputes between us, but if I am in disagreement with your edits, then I am going to say something about it.--十八 05:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I started to post and just thought, this is the second one tonight! Augh! Not the way I'd planned it. But hey, I think it's always worth bringing stuff up to talk about, even when I'm totally off base. Doceirias (talk) 10:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Some Additional Evidence for name 'Holo'

I'd like to show you some evidence from official site that uses the name 'Holo'. We already have these links.

http://www.mxtv.co.jp/ookami/chara.html http://www.spicy-wolf.com/assets/images/about/character_holo.gif

Moreover, I found this code in the html file of spice and wolf official site page (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/original/character.html)

In section of , You can find code segment -> div id="characterHolo" class="originalCharacterUnit"

In this page of official website (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/anime/character.html)

In section of , You can find the code segment -> div id="castHolo" class="castUnit"

In this page of official website, (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/about/character.html) In section of You can find the code segment -> div id="mainCharacterHolo" class="mainCharacterUnit"

I'm trying to send an e-mail to the official studio that produced spice and wolf animation and asks for Holo's english name. If anyone knows the e-mail address, please post it here so I can send them the question with my broken Japanese (and English, hoping that they will understand English to some extent) .. :p Stevefis (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm really disappointed they used Holo over Horo in the official romanization, just like in Code Geass they used Kallen instead of Karen. 98.160.170.80 (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ironic how Ami Koshimizu voices both of them.--十八 20:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Cospa has also chosen to use the "Holo" spelling on several products: [10], [11], [12].--十八 06:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

A cell phone games was released using the title ホロジック which is a portmanteau of Holo and Logic rendering it as Hologic. Obviously, we can't have Horogic in this case.--十八 04:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Wise Wolf or Sage Wolf?

in a large number of websites, forums and fansubs she often calls herself Sage Wolf horo (Holo?) (god of the harvest?) while in the article it says "She refers to herself as the "Wise Wolf of Yoitsu" (ヨイツの賢狼, Yoitsu no Kenrō?)" should this be changed or kept how it is?

The thing is, it's only on fan websites, fan forums, and in fansubs that she calls herself Sage Wolf Horo. All the official sources have Wise Wolf, and Holo. Fancruft is never a valid source. Nezu Chiza (talk) 23:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

What about a link in japanese in both words (Sage; Wise?) - maybe they mean the same thing? or something along them lines

From what I've seen, the kanji 賢 means 'wise', but is used in place of 'sage'. Sage itself in the English language means a 'wise man', so the two are basically synonyms.--十八 23:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, ok. basicly might as well keep it as wise then (it seems more fitting anyway). should this discussion section be deleted or kept? (or just ignore this; or delete it if you think im being stupid) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.183.106 (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussions sections are always kept. It will be archived in time. Doceirias (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

not true, in some cases of discussions have been removed (Yay my stupidity is gonna be engraved in wikipedia history forever!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.183.106 (talk) 10:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Only if the thread isn't about improving the page, or contains libel. Doceirias (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Your question wasn't stupidity - it was a legitimate question in hopes to improve the article. Such things are always encouraged here on Wikipedia. ^_^ --Eruhildo (talk) 05:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This Page needs Semi-Protection

There seems to be an unregistered person constantly altering the 'holo' thing without participating in the discussion. I can only see as constant vandalism and we need to do some kind of semi-protection against unregistered user to prevent this. Can someone ask for semi-protection? I haven't done it yet, so I'm not familiar with it. Stevefis (talk) 00:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not hard to ask for it; I just did it a few hours ago for Kodomo no Jikan and got an instant response, but that case was more clear cut. This case isn't actually about pure vandalism, merely a difference in opinion, and even though sources are given for Holo, that doesn't stop many people who want it to be spelled Horo. It's disruptive and annoying, but I have my doubts as to whether an admin would semi-protect the article just on this basis.--十八 00:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. We'll see if they protect; I think overriding sources and ignoring the discussion qualifies as vandalism. Doceirias (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Not frequent enough for that admin, apparently. Doceirias (talk) 02:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)