Talk:South India/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

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It would be sacrilage not to put a picture of sangitapitamaha Purandaradasa under traditional music section. Also a picture of man wearnig Mysore Petha or a woman in Mysore silk Saree (the oldest silk tradition in south India) in the cloathing section and Yakshagana (from Karnataka) and Kucchupudi(from Andrha Pradesh) pictures in the dance section would give more balance to the whole page.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Pictures

Can someone please put pictures of Karnataka temples from Belur/halebidu or Pattadakal etc. I only see pictures from Kereal and Tamil Nadu. Dinesh Kannambadi

Pastoral

I'm getting rid of the whole "pastoral" qualification. South Indians were never pastoral -- the people in the North were. AreJay, 16:14 Aug 17 2004

Dravidian Languages

Dravidian race and Dravidian languages

Hi AreJay,

The whole lot of information on dravidian race and languages, that you wrote on the article South India is to be included in the article Dravidian race and Dravidian languages.

The details of race and languages is to be discussed in the individual pages dealing with them. So I am deleting them from the South India page. Please add them at the respective pages of Dravidian race and Dravidian languages. Thanks for you contribution. keep writing.

here is what you wrote: (please add them at the proper pages)

The Race

The Dravidian race is the oldest existing race of humans to inhabit India. Where they came from and how they dispersed through out the subcontinent is a matter of debate, and most theories sadly, have been not convincing enough to elict a definitive theory on this race and its history in India.

Many accounts claim that the Dravidians were an indegenous race. Others, like Bernard Sergent's claim that this is a Afro-Uralic race and sees similarities in semantic and grammatical elements of Dravidian tongues to those in the Sahel belt, from the Sudan to Senegal. He believes that Dravidian tribes entered India from Africa about 10,000 years ago to herald in the Neolitic Revolution.

One of his hypotheses suggests that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley were non-Dravidian and that Dravidians had already penetrated South India by the time the Harappan civilization matured, which is also contradictory to the Aryan Invasion theory.

Dravidian Languages

Dravidian languages are a distinct branch of languages, whose origins have not been traced back to any of the major linguistic family branches. Modern Dravidian languages can be divided according to region.

National languages of India are in bold typeface.

South Dravidian Languages

Irula Tamil Malayalam Kodagu (Coorgie) Kota Toda Badaga Kannada Tulu

Central Dravidian Languages

Savara Telugu Gondi Konda Pengo Manda Kuri Kuvi Kolami Naiki Gadba Parji

North Dravidian Languages

Kurukh Malto Brahui

Sometime during the reign of Asoka (Third century BC), Tamil and Kannada developed into distinct idioms and the two cultures separated. A third major Dravidian entity called Telugu appeared in Andhra. The oldest inscriptions in Tamil date back to 250 BC -- the language's antiquity challenged only perhaps by Sanskrit. The earliest Kannada inscriptions may be dated to 450 AD. The earliest Telugu and Malayalam inscriptions date back to 650 AD and 900 AD respectively.

Please add them at the proper pages.

thanks Robin klein 18:44, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

South India?

Definitions of South India differ between the introductory paragraph and The Land. The Introduction defines south India as including the five primarily Dravidian-speaking states, as well as Goa; The Land uses the traditional geographic division between northern and southern India, the Satpuras, Vindhyas and Narmada River, but which also includes most of Maharashtra. The People echoes the definition from The Land. Any thoughts on how best to reconcile this? Tom Radulovich 21:23, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards defining south India as comprising the 5 states plus Lakshadweep and other UTs. I don't think Maharashtrians think of their state as being either North or South. The traditional definition of Narmada and the hills will rope in not only Maharashtra but also parts of Madhya Pradesh and Orissa.

Saying that South India comprises Dravidian speaking regions of India creates problems because a) Konkani spoken in Goa and Karnataka isnt really Dravidian, although there are a lot of loan words in the language and b) There are Dravidian languages spoken in the north-central-east regions as well and c)Per my discussions with Robin we agreed that South India has other races than Dravidians.

Any suggestions?? AreJay 21:38, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with your argument about Goa and its Konkani language. Kannada (name of language, and not "karnataka" name of state), however, is undoubtedly a dravidian language. It has been influenced by Indo-European languages such as marathi and sanskrit, but it retains almost all of its Dravidian characteristics. It is agglutinative in grammar just like Tamil or Telugu. In addition, it has the characteristic 3 way separation of dental, alveolar, and retroflex articulation. In fact, many speakers of Telugu can understand to a large degree northern dialects of Kannada without ever formally studying the language and Tamil speakers can do the same with southern dialects. This is due to the fact that the languages have only separated from eachother recently (sometime within the past two millenia) and thus they are still sometimes mutually intelligible. I highly doubt that we can find any linguistic scholar who will not classify kannada as dravidian. I do, however, also agree with you about there being other races in south India other than dravidians and believe that the classification of a south india is at best only weakly based on fact. However, since the term is so widely used, we should include it in Wikipedia with the definition that the largest number of people use to derfine it with. AmbExThErMaL 23:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

---

I dont think this should be a problem. The Land section deals with the geo-physical expanse of the southern-Indian Subcontinent and Hence South Indian. The People section largely echoes the introduction, but also takes into account the linguistic patterns. The two sections together gives the over all diversity of south Indian people. I think there is no need to mandatorily restrict to rigid structural definitions. There is considerable overlap because racial diversity overlaps linguistic ones and cultural diversity overlaps geographical ones.

South India refers to the LINGUISTICALLY related regions speaking the dravidian language family, (not race). Parts of oriya and madhya pradesh are racially dravidians though not linguistically. It is therefore mentioned at the very beginning of the introduction that South India is a linguistic-cultural entity and not racial. Though a large proportion of south Indians are dravidians by race. However race is not the defining characteristic. It is the linguistic categorization that is of prime importance.

Linguistically South India comprises of the Dravidian language family states. As far as Maharashtra goes. Maharashtra entirely cannot be clubbed into one slot. the Konkan region particularly the kolhapur region was an integral part of the Karnataka region in the maratha empire. besides the capital of the maratha empire was Bijapur which is in South India. If maharashtrans do not consider themselves as south indians then it is largely political than cultural reasons. Robin klein 21:54, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the introduction can be written to reflect the two senses of the term, something like this

South India is a geographic and linguistic-cultural region of India. Geographically, South India traditionally includes the entire Indian Peninsula south of the Satpura and Vindhya ranges and Narmada River. The geographic term encompasses the Deccan plateau (from the Sanskrit word dakshina, meaning south), the Eastern and Western Ghats, and the coasts between the Ghats and the sea.

As a linguistic-cultural region, South India consists of the four south Indian states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and the union territories of Lakshadweep and Pondicherry. Natives of these states are called South Indians.

South India is also called as Dakshina Nad (Dakshina = South + Nad = land) or Dravida Nad (Dravida = Dravidian + Nad = land) It is also referred to as Dravida and its people, Dravidians, although this is not an exclusive set since ethnic Dravidians also live in Sri Lanka and parts of eastern and central India.

This allows for multiple definitions which focus on geography, language, and culture, allowing greater clarity without priviledging any one; "race" is a somewhat dated and questionable term, too often misused. Goa remains an anomaly; if "South India refers to the LINGUISTICALLY related regions speaking the Dravidian language family" then Goa doesn't really fit the linguistic-cultural definition. For that reason I left it out. I wasn't clear on which "ethnic Dravidians" live in Southeast Asia, so I left that out, but added central and eastern India, home to significant groups of Dravidian speakers. Tom Radulovich 22:43, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Enthnic Dravidians live in Singapore and Malaysia. Singapore's name has Dravidian origins (singa/siMha/sinha = lion, pura (sanskritized) = city). But I feel now in retrospect that the Dravidian discussion is pointless. As Robin and I have discussed previously, Dravidians constitute a large part of south India (esp. south India as a linguistic-cultural region), but there are other races and minorities that identify strongly with the region and the land that are not Dravidians. I feel we should leave the Dravida nad qualification out.

As far as Goa is concerned, it is hard to group Goa into any particular region in India because of the Portuguese influence that has impacted it so much. But Konkans live in Karantaka and since they are, for all intents and purposes, cousins of the Goan konkans, I think it would only be fair to include Goa as part of South India. In other words, it IS hard to group Goa into any region of the country, but if it had to be grouped into any one region, that region would be South India.

So I'm proposing:

• Getting rid of the Dravida-nad discussion, including the dicussion pertaining to ethnic Dravidians elsewhere in India and in SE Asia. Maybe that would be better suited on a page discussing Dravidians. and
• b)Including Goa as part of south India AreJay 16:01, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I guess I would lean against getting rid of the Dravida Nad discussion altogether; Culturally and linguistically South India is primarily, although not exclusively, Dravidian, and perhaps Konkani can be distinguished from other Indo-Aryan languages by its stronger Dravidian influences. Perhaps something like this would suffice:

As a linguistic-cultural region, South India consists of the five south Indian states of Andhra Pradesh, Goa, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu, and the union territories of Lakshadweep and Pondicherry. Natives of these states are called South Indians.

South India is also called Dakshina Nad (Dakshina = South + Nad = land), Dravida Nad (Dravida = Dravidian + Nad = land), or simply Dravida. Culturally and linguistically South India is distinguished as the home of the Dravidians, but not exclusively so; ethnic Dravidians also live in parts of eastern and central India, Sri Lanka, and Southeast Asia, and some non-Dravidian peoples (for example Konkani) also make their home in South India.

Looks OK to me. This will be the modified version of our definition of South India. AreJay 18:35, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Carnatic vs. Karnataka

Ok this seems to be an issue with people misinterpreting two similar sounding words. The word Carnatic is a Sanskrit derivation which means "pleasing to the ear", and was attributed to the kind of music coming from South India. Sanskrit is a Indo-European language and is from a different family branch from Dravidian languages.

The word "Carnatic" has been in use for ages. The first Carnatic War, between the French and British took place in 1746 and what is now Madras! Back then the territories were Hyderabad, the Madras Presidency and Kingdom of Mysore. Modern states like Karnataka did not exist!

The word "Karnataka" (ಕರ್ನಾಟಕ) comes from Kannada, a dravidian language. Karnataka is derived from "karu" meaning elevated (as is the Decaan plateau) and "nadu" which means land (as in kingdom). It is also important to understand that the region that is now Karnataka was always called Mysore prior to independence and for a while even after independence, and that the modern state was christened "Karnataka" on November 27, 1950! Even to this day, Nov 27 is celebrated in the state as "Kannada Rajyotsava" (Rajyotsava means "state festival") signifying the birth of the state. There was never a use of the word Karnataka prior to this.

Therefore the portion that refers to Carnatic being a European derivation of Karnataka needs to be removed.

AreJay 20:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Check out the article on Carnatic (region), which is derived from the 1911 Encyclopedia. It was written long before the Mysore state was officially renamed Karnataka (1972, not 1950). It attests Karnata as a term for South India as far back as the 16th century, and refers to Robert Caldwell's 19th century etymology of Carnatic from a Dravidian root. It made sense that the name for the musical style would be derived from the Sanskrit term for "pleasing to the ear", which I tried to clarify in my re-write, but there also seems to be reasonable evidence that Carnatic was derived from a Dravidian-derived place-name in use well before the 20th century; certainly early 20th century Europeans thought so. Tom Radulovich 21:23, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

I think the passages about the carnatic region written by AreJay is to be reinstated.

The land south of the rivers Krishna and Tungabhadra is known as Carnatic region. This term is often confused with the term Karnataka. Although the rendering of both words is similar in Sanskrit (कर्नाटक), their etymology is different. Carnatic, in Sanskrit means "pleasing to the ear", whereas Karnataka, comes from the Kannada words "karu" and "nadu", which mean "elevated land". The term carnatic region, came to prominence to describe the southern region from Nellore to Cape Comorin of the Indian peninsula. It was fought over by the British and the French in the 1700s, in what is now called as the Carnatic wars. The carnatic region lends its name to the sophisticated musical system of South India, known as carnatic music. The term carnatic region is sometimes used to denote the entire southern region of mainland Indian Subcontinent.

This passage is well explanatory and removes the misconception which unfortunately has resurfaced despite the careful mention of the subtle differences in the two similar SOUNDING but CONCEPTUALLY different terms. Robin klein 21:42, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The derivation of Carnatic (as a region, as distict from a musical style) from Karnatak (i.e. Karnataka) may not in fact be a misconception. From the 1911 Encyclopedia article CARNATIC, or KARNATAK (Kannada, Karnata, Karnatakadesa): "Properly the name is, in fact, applicable only to the country of the Kanarese extending between the Eastern and Western Ghats, over an irregular area narrowing northwards, from Palghat in the south to Bidar in the north, and including Mysore." This corresponds to the modern boundaries of Karnataka, although the territory was then administratively divided between Bombay, Hyderabad, and Mysore. It goes on to say that "Administratively the name Carnatic (or rather Karnatak) is now applied only to the Bombay portion of the original Karnata, viz, the districts of Belgaum, Dharwar and Bijapur, part of North Kanara, and the native states of the Southern Mahratta agency and Kolhapur." This region corresponds to the northwestern section of modern-day Karnataka, and doesn't jibe with Are Jay's claim that "There was never a use of the word Karnataka prior to this [1950]." So by the early 20th century, the British had figured out that they had misapplied the term to the coast, when it actually applied to the land of the Kanarese (i.e. Kannada). The style of music and the geographic region may well have different etymologies, but that doesn't necessarily negate a Dravidian origin, and later European misapplication, for the geographic term. Tom Radulovich 00:00, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, you learn something new everyday! AreJay 16:04, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Andhra

Ancient Sanskrit scripts say that the Andhras were Aryans that moved towards the Southern part of India. They are not Dravidians.

True enough. But how does that make the residents of modern Andhra Pradesh "mostly Aryan"? The Andhra, or Satavahanas, were the ruling clan of a state based in modern-day Maharashtra, at Paithan. The state extended into Telingana, but most of the chief Satavahana rock-cut caves, cities, and seaports are in Maharashtra, not Andhra Pradesh.

Second, evidence that the ruling clan was Aryan doesn't necessarily mean that the population was Aryan. The Franks, who ruled France and after whom it was named, were German, but does that make the modern French Germans rather than Latins? Does the fact that the Bulgars, who ruled Bulgaria and gave their name to the country, were Turks mean that modern Bulgarians are Turks rather than Slavs? Frequently in history a ruling dynasty leaves a name and linguistic traces without utterly replacing the native population; in both the case of France and Bulgaria, the Norman kingdoms in England and Sicily, as well as ruling clans of India like the Sakas, Kushanas, Mughals, Afghans, etc., the ruling clan were ultimately absorbed into the majority population.

The recent edits, stating Telugu is in fact a 70% Indo-Aryan language and not a Dravidian language, and that the Telugu people are mostly Aryan, are presented without any supporting references, and are at odds with the general consensus of linguists and historians. I am going to revert the recent edits; could you please present your evidence here on the talk page before again making such claims in the article? Tom Radulovich 01:45, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dravidian racial stock?

What are the criteria upon which this statement has been included? Is it age old skin tone or genetic studies? The major Indian Y-Haplogroups(Y-chromosomes) are H*, J*, L* and R*. These have been observed in all castes in both South India and North India(Please don't bring tribals here. Tribals form only 4% of South Indian population and in the regions of Tamil Nadu and Kerala they make up only 1% of the population). In fact, South Indian Y-chromosome diversity is just a subset of North-Indian/Pakistani genetic diversity. Also, both South India n and North Indian population show total or almost lack of I*,E*,R1b*, predominant among Western Europeans, West Asians, Africans. Now it's universally acknowledged that both Indian caste and tribal maternal lineages(92%) derive from Pleistocene age population of India. The skin tone and phenotype are both under selection. Picking up every light skinned person in South India and making him Aryan and every dark skinned person in North India and making him Dravidian won't serve any purpose. When you observe there is no lineage that make South Indians unique race(whatever that means), I suppose the above statement is absurd. South Indians are Dravidians, but linguistically. As, Dravidians they are linguistic cousins to Brahuis in Pakistan also though they(Brahuis) are genetically similar to other Pakistani population in Y-chromosome distribution. I suppose, now nobody talks about discete migrations.

Manjunatha (5-Jan-2006)

Why more info on economy?

Why is it given under every state to click here for more info on the economy of the state? Is this page economically related? I think it should be changed to "Click here for more info on [STATE]" What are your opinions? thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}

The particular section you refer to provides a synopsis, if you will, of the economies of the various south Indian states. Because it would be counter-productive to discuss in detail the economies of all south Indian states in the South India article, a brief summary of that state's economy, along with a link to a more detailed write-up on its economy is provided. AreJay 03:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Please dont delete others edited information or before reverting please specify valid reason for removal before 2 days.

ambiguity between articles

There is a lot of ambiguity between the "gross state domestic product" values given in this article and the articles to their respective states. plz get the latest stats and update it accordingly. Eg: In this article it is stated that the economy of tamilnadu is the 3rd in country and top in South india. But in the economy section of the "Tamilnadu" article it is stated as 5th in the country.

Hi Please dont delete others edited information or before reverting please specify valid reason for removal before 2 days.

how are daughters viewed in indian society?

In my personal case: better than sons :( --hydkat 07:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Major restructuring

Whew! It needs massive restructuring I guess.How about this? Lead-Geography (including regions)-Climate-History-Demographics-Politics-Economy-Culture(including heritage, diversity etc.)-Media-Education-Sports etc.? Just like city articles. Regards.--Dwaipayanc 10:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

However, sections have to have sub-sections. Otherwise, will be difficult to deal with such a big topic!--Dwaipayanc 10:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

sounds good... do we follow a keep it general rule? --hydkat 11:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, keep it general is better to follow, but it may not be possible always, as the topic is huge in content. All sections need not be broken state-wise, but some sections might. For example, "Economy" is already broken state-wise. "Health tourism" should be removed, if not incorporated in, say, economics? Somehow we have to merge heritage with culture. Bye.--Dwaipayanc 12:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Economy section... let me repeat the Economy section!... does anybody have the courage to reduce it to four paragaphs? If so courageous one - all the best! :(

(one anonymous editor tried it but someone immediately rv it...) --hydkat 22:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Check if the present economy suits. However, it is incomplete. It encompasses agriculture weel, and also some IT. Major industries of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka have beeen touched. Please add Andhra, Kerala. Also add references to figures. A seperate sub articles on Economy of South India has been contained that contains the old text of this article in toto.

The Demographics is pathetic in condition.Please add referenced figures, percentage etc. Culture and Heritage have been brought under the same section. This section has too many images. Should not contain those which are not absolutely necessary. Better to get rid of the gallery format. Please expand Education, Media etc. Thanks. --Dwaipayanc 06:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I think it would be better to go with the guidelines outlined in Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian states, rather than following the city-format. In that case, hevr to include/incorporate new topics: "Divisions"(this may not be needed seperately), "Flora and Fauna", "Transport".--Dwaipayanc

You ----- Dwaipanyanc you area kolkata guy y you interfere in South India, its enough you Kolkata guys involved in cricket better dont involve in all. this unsigned commet was added by User:59.92.46.204 13:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear User:59.92.46.204. Please stop reverting the article to its old versions.
And although I do not have the authority to intefere, may I also request that you refrain from making rude remarks at fellow wikipedians. South India is the current Indian collaboration of the week, and Dwaipayanc has been doing a great job in elevating the standard of the article. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 18:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi my dear colleagues please dont delete the informattion included by some people, If you want you add articles on your places go ahead. dont delete what others included. And i have noticed Mr.Dwaipanyanc he is deleting others information please dont do that, I appreciate your suggetions.User:Ravi Reddy

Dear Mr.Reddy. Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia. In order to improve the standard of certain articles, it sometimes becomes necessary to delete previous information and add new data. Please read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. The South India article deals essentially with the region and its characteristics, not just about the economy of the region (which by the way, is discussed by Economy of South India). Therefore it is totally unnecessary to be giving the economy section predominant importance. That is why users have been trying to shrink the section. I hope you understand. --- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 19:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Please dont delete others edited information or before reverting please specify valid reason for removal before 2 days. If you want that. then Take off all informations from that. only Chennai Banglore and Kerala specified and the largest south indian state was ignored y this rationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravi reddy (talk • contribs)

"Dwaipanyanc you area kolkata guy y you interfere in South India" by User:59.92.46.204 is an ignorant statement which should be clarified. Dwaipayanc can be from Kolkata, Khartoum or Key West or even from Planet Krypton, but that does not disqualify an editor from being involved in any article. In so many country, regional and city articles I see this pathetic pesudo-nationalism with people thinking they own an article just because they live in the place it is describing. Grow up anon and do something useful in life, like learning to spell words correctly :P Green Giant 20:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Dwaipanyanc, please continue your good work. Those choosing to criticize the work of others need to understand that it is more constructive for them to contribute and remediate errors they see in the article than to hurl accusations at other people based on their ethnicity and place of origin. AreJay 23:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Andaman and Lakshwadeep islands

The present article only just mentions about the islands being part of south India. I think the islands deserve a better representation on the page. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 19:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

somehow I don't understand how the islands got into this article. Its a seperate geographic entity with its own unique history. Its akin to placing Alaska in the Northwestern United States article. --hydkat 07:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess you are right - I couldnt find any refernece to the islands being part of southern India.I've removed the references in the lead. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 09:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Notes, References and bibliography

Should Notes be separate from References & Bibligraphy? --hydkat 07:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think notes and references should be integrated. Infact many of the notes have their citations given in the references section here. Robin klein 07:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

South Indian festivals

How about some details about South Indian festivals like Pongala, Onam, Vishu, etcetera in the culture section? thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 09:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Yes festivals should be included. However, regarding the section culture, it's not upto the mark. Ideally, it should not have contained any subsections. Some subsections at present describes much more than what is desirable. For example, the midrif-baring style of draping the sari desereves no mention in the article, while the info may well be very important in the sepeartae article of Sari. Similarly, other sections may be shortened. If the article is gradually being readied for a peer review followed by FAC, I fear these subsection structure have to be removed. Only the subheading culture will remain, with some paragraphs describing the aspects of culture in as concisa a summary form as possible. The task is really difficult! Bye.--Dwaipayanc 11:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I have tried to remove the subheadings from the "Culture". It was a difficult job. If you people think the job was heartless and not upto the mark, feel free to revert. However, I am afraid, peer review/FAC in future may tend to do the same thing! Now, I could not include every important thing (and perhaps removed some important thing) from the culture. Please insert those. And add lines on Festivals. The literature part describes mostly old stuff. Please try to include some glimpses of modern litereture of the region. I beg your pardon, but there were too much repetition of the "world view" and "navel" in the article. I think the place of discussing those stuffs are South Indian culture, not here in South India. Please excuse me if I sounded too harsh.

Let's also concentrate on other important topics, like condolidating "Demographics", "politics", "Media"etc. "Sports" does not read good. Instead of a lot of names, sports that are popular, usually played, names of playing grounds etc. should also be included. "Flora and Fauna" has remained untouched.

Do you really think "South Indian diversity" should be discussed seperately? How about mentioning ethnicities and religions in "Demographics" only? BTW, is there in notable Muslim influence in South Indian culture? In my small knowledge, I think there is. That aspect has not been discussed. Thanks.--Dwaipayanc 11:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with Dwaipayana that the culture section is unduly obsessed with the navel and with metaphysical interpretations of dance bangimas....sublime and ridiculous, so to speak. And how many would agree that the south Indian Weltanschauung "is essentially....the celebration of the beauty of the body"? Dancers view all through, and a solo dancer at that, for there is not ONE reference to Kathakali! Not even the name, same with the folk forms. Why should not the dance section be more matter-of-fact, give some names, some rough-n-ready differences in style? I propose to rewrite on this pattern the whole culture section. Many of the sentences that may be removed are 'sourced', but maybe we can agree that not every sentence published elsewhere needs to find place on WP. Please let me know views on this before I begin -- do my proposed changes impact adversely on an exposition of south Indian Weltanschauung? Regards, ImpuMozhi 19:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, the sourced sections seem to be based on the opinons of other authors. I think we should just stick to representing facts and avoid vague generalizations of a region that is quite diverse in and of itself. Please make changes where necessary, ImpuMozhi. Thanks AreJay 20:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi AreJay, I have restored the section by Dwaipayanac on culture and heritage which I had removed. However I still have my reservations. It was asked, where is the equivalent of South Indian scandinavia, whether Sri-lanka or malaysian tamils, well the states in the Federal Republic India are no less federal (at least in paper) than the countries or nation states in European Union and around.

And yes referencing does involve making assertions based on the works or citations of authors who devoted a large career in studying a topic. Robin klein 23:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I reverted back to the "sub-sectioned" culture format again! This is becoming troublesom.Let's decide. See, Scandinavia is a nice model to follw, if we want to stress the "socio-cultural" and "political" aspects more. Whereas, Malwa stands as another good example because it's an FA. Please decide. Robin is correct in pointing out that info on transport etc can be found in individual stat's articles, while South India as a whole can better deal with the cultural aspects. We've to ask, if necessary, to more number of veterans. And even if, sub-sectioned culture is retained, it needs copyedits as there are repetitions within the section, as well as from other sections. Bye.--Dwaipayanc 06:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Losing the ethos

south India exists not as a political unit but rather as a cultural entity. The purpose of most authors and anthropologists for using terms like german speaking world or south india is to show the way the weltanschauung of a people is distinct within a nation state (eg South India) or similar across nation states (eg Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein etc). To model the page South India on the pages on other cities or countries or state would be to lose the very purpose of writing an article on a linguistic-cultural entity.

The sub sections on culture are important and so are the detalis which seem unorthodox like clothing and its ethos. The prime base of an article like south India should be to express the weltanschauung and culture of a nation within a country. Modeling the south India page on that of cities and countries and state (eg transport, politics etc) would be not serving the very bases for the reason for such a page. Such Modeling leads to repatitive sections on road transport, politics, etc which could be found in individual articles like Tamil nadu, Karnataka etc. It would then fail to justify the reason for the existence for a page like South India. True it is very important to ready an article for the FAC title or position however that should not be at the cost of losing the very reason why an article should exist. South India is not a political country like South Africa, or Norway, instead it is a linguistic cultural region like Scandinavia. The article should discuss South India as a cultural entity describing the people, their ethos and weltanschauung, or else it would lose its very ethos. Robin klein 12:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That's great! I mean the Scandinavia model. Really, creating the article in the way Robin klein has suggested will be great. Thanks a lot! Bye.--Dwaipayanc 13:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

.... what's South India's equivalent to norden? Sri Lanka? Tamilians in Malayasia? Sounds interesting --hydkat 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to chime in...Robin and I had actually collaborated on this article way back in '04..glad to see you back in action :)! However, I feel since we're dealing with South India, we should cover a broad umbrella of topics, all in Wikipedia:Summary style. Culture is obviously important, however details about South Indian culture should be relagated to a Culture of South India page; a summary of that should appear on this page. Coverage of other topics such as politics, language, economics, etc. should also follow a similar format. Politics in South India is quite different to that of other regions of the country. That needs to be adequately represented on this page as well. The Indian region of Malwa is currently a featured article and has great coverage on a wide variety of topics related to the region. I reckon that article is as good a place to start as any for purposes of reference. AreJay 19:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Sports

The "sports" section is pointless. While we're updating and making content changes, I'd like to go ahead and delete that section. Any objections? AreJay 00:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

yes it should go, or be compressed in a different section at most. P.S. thanks AreJay Robin klein 00:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I too think it is a pointless addition. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 06:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sovereign India in Antarctica

The southernmost tip of mainland India is at Kanyakumari (Cape Comorin) on the Indian Ocean. This however is not the southernmost point over which India is sovereign; that distinction goes to Dakshina Gangotri or Indian Antartica, the southernmost frontier of south India.

This extract is from the regions section. I was wondering about the validity of this statement, because I think India does not have any territorial claims in Antarctica. According to the Antarctic territorial claims article, only seven countries claim territory on the continent. And as per the discussions on the talk page, India does not hold territory there. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 05:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

All claims are suspended as per the Antarctic Treaty. The 20 of the 28 countries (including India) that signed that treaty does not recognise any claim on the continent. --hydkat 11:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

South India or south India

Okay, this might be a silly question, but I was just wondering if it was necessary to capitalise the south in south India as in the article. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 05:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I think so. "South India" refers to the region as a distinct socio-cultural entity whereas "south India" means the southern part of the socio-cultural entity that is India. Compare "south Africa" and "South Africa". Ambarish 05:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

These terms have subtle implications and therefore are carefully handled in media like the BBC. Southern India means Southern part of the country called as the Union of India. While South India means a distinct linguistic-cultural region of the Indian subcontinent.

This is what I was trying to state, to model this page after cities and countries would be to treat this page as Southern India however this page essentially deals with South India and should be treated as a cultural-linguistic entity. This is a very tough task but if we could achieve it with balance and co-operation, then this page could emerge as a model for lots of other cultural-linguistic regions around the world. I should say with the kind of co-operation already shown with people here on the page we can really achieve it. Robin klein 11:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be South India. Southern India encompasses the Lakshadweep islands and Goa, (and perhaps even Andaman and Nicobar) which I wouldn't really consider to be part of South India. AreJay 13:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree with AreJay, it should be South India, thanks. Robin klein 14:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Infact one does not need a page like Southern India, because it would just be a summary of the articles of four states of kerala, Andhra pradesh, tamil nadu and karnataka and the andaman and nicobar islands and probably even the konkan region of maharashtra. However a Page like South India is essential to describe the distinct linguistic-cultural region and its ethos. We should also be careful that we may not inadvertently turn the page South India into a summary of the four states. Robin klein 14:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The lead as it now stands goes precisely against this understanding. The old wording should be restituted, based on the consensus in this discussion. Regards, ImpuMozhi 19:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I did read through the lead sometime yesterday, and was not too pleased with it. I will perhaps work on that sometime tomorrow and reconstruct it per WP:LEAD guidelines. AreJay 21:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the old meanwhile. Feel free to amend. Regards, ImpuMozhi 22:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the current notion of prevalence of the term South India back to 300 BC is irrelevant. Although we can include the history of the region, I strongly feel, it doesn't need to be represented in the lead, when we speak collectively as South India. I've come across the term traditional delineation in a number of articles, which i feel is very subjective. The vindhyas and satpuras are in maharashtra, and we cannot consider maharashtra and goa in south india. And the significant link among the communities/states of South India is that the languages are of dravidian origin. And such rich diversity specific to the four linguistic communities cannot be attributed to north india. The reach of hindi isnt high in South India, and so are the cultural attributes like the festivals like holi. While most of the north indian people celebrate it, south indians as a whole don't give much importance to it! Also the dominance of regional parties as well as south indian cinema can be included as well. Cinema is an attribute that is strong in all parts of South India. - Chez ^{(Discuss / Email)} • 04:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What is to be done with media

What is to be done with the setion on media, transport and education should they be considered apart or should they be merged with demographics/people section or any other relevant section, or merged together into one section etc. the page south India now seems to be heavy in content though lacking in a unified essence, the attainment of which is hindered by these sections being redundant, or waiting to be merged with other sections or neglected. Robin klein 19:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Robin. Media and Education are pretty uniform across India — I don't think the region offers anything unique from that standpoint. I would also say transport is pretty standard and probably dosen't warrant a mention. AreJay 20:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Too many images

There appears to be a large number of images in the article. The "Culture" section appears very busy. The number of images appearing on either side of the text is quite distracting and the focus from the textual content is lessened. Can we remove some images and ensure that they are all right aligned. I know this is not required per WP:MOS but I feel it will be aethetically pleasing and will draw focus once again to the textual content of the article and not its many images. Comments? AreJay 20:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes we need to cut down on images on the culture section of the page South India. But it needs to be done slowly deciding which images are more important there needs to be picture from all four states and the picture should correspond to the section.

The images need not all be right aligned, the brain likes variations in the settings of images as it goes about reading, the saccadic movement of the eyes get a respite and reading cognition is enhanced. What is needed is a cut down on repetitive pictures, the alignment would work out itself with relatively less images. Robin klein 02:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The South Indian culture page is redundant. I am redirecting it to the page South India. Given the idea that this page could probably emerge as a model for other linguistic-cultural regions. what is really needed is for each sub section to be expanded in its own. Meaning the section south Indian music is already expanded, the section south Indian painting needs to be expanded, the section on Architecture South Indian Architecture etc need to be started. So the present section of culture and heritage is okay but the extra pictures need to be transfered to expanded sub sections. Robin klein 05:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Robin, given that South India needs to follow Wikipedia:Summary style, I'm going to reinsert the relevent information into the Culture of South India article. I think it's okay that it is currently far from the state that we want it to be — it can remain a work-in-progress. I have reorganized Culture by trying to get it as close as possible to summary-style as I could. I also removed the subheadings — the reasoning there is a) Because of summary style guidelines and b) because there really should not be any need for subheadings for two to three lines of content. I did remove some images as well, but they should all exist in their prior form in the Culture of South India article. Thanks AreJay 14:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi AreJay, I have redirected the page Culture of South India to a more appropriate term South Indian culture, its the same subtle difference between southern India and South India discussed before. Robin klein 15:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm prefectly happy with the way it is now. AreJay 15:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have added two images, one in the flora and fauna section and the other of the Jain monolith, It expresses the pre-hindu legacy of Jainism in South India which was/still is influential in the culture of the people. Robin klein 01:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Pondicherry

I have added Pondicherry to the defn of what constitutes S. India. Pondicherry is right next to Tamil Nadu, is overwhelmingly influenced by Tamil culture and should therefore be considered to be part of South India (at least in my eyes). Is everyone okay with this? AreJay 04:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Pondicherry, and its four enclaves are within TN, Kerala and AP. Therefore they should rightly be included in the definition. thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 13:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Politics of tamil nadu

The biggest ideological influence in tamil politics is Periyar Ramasami. Though the self-respect movement is mentioned ... nothing much is mentioned about this cherismatic individual. --hydkat 09:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hydkat, can you add some of that information to the segment? Unfortunately, I do not know much about politics and I had to refer to multiple sources, which probably didn't present an accurate picture of the situation. Also, any information you can add on politics in Kerala would be great. Thanks AreJay 13:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

will do so as soon as I can... --hydkat 06:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Over All excellent quality information, Good Job - Ganesh

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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I Think this Article lacks some sections. There is a section on Politics, but there is no section on Tourism, Education. You can easily make this an A-grade article by writing a few more sections. More citations are required. For eg, in the Culture and Heritage section-- The music of South India is known as Carnatic music, which includes rhythmic and structured music by composers like Purandara Dasa, Kanaka Dasa, Tyagaraja, Annamacharya, Muthuswami Dikshitar, Shyama Shastri, Subbaraya Shastri, Mysore Vasudevachar and Swathi Thirunal. The contemporary singer Dr. K. J. Yesudas is a cultural ambassador of Carnatic music. The motion picture industry has emerged as an important platform in South India, over the years portraying the cultural changes, trends, aspirations and developments experienced by its people. Some movie classics like Nammukku paarkkaan munthiri thoppukal (1986) by Padmarajan, Adi Shankara (1984) by director G V Iyer, and Perumthachan (1990) by Ajayan have gained worldwide acclaim. South India is home to several distinct dance forms — the Koodiyattam, Bharatanatyam, Kuchipudi, Kathakali, Yakshagana, Theyyam, Ottamthullal, Oppana, Kerala Natanam and Mohiniaattam. South India has an independent literary tradition going back over 2000 years. The first known literature of South India are the poetic Sangams, which were written in Tamil between 2000 to 1500 years ago. The 850 CE Kannada classic Kavirajamarga written by King Amoghavarsha I makes references to Kannada literature of King Durvinita in the early sixth century CE. Tamil Buddhist commentators of the tenth century CE Nemrinatham make references to Kannada literature of the fourth century CE. Distinct Malayalam and Telugu literary traditions developed in the following centuries. South India has two distinct styles of rock architecture, the pure dravida style of Tamil Nadu and the Vesara style (also called Karnata dravida style) present in Karnataka. The inspirational temple sculptures of Hampi, Badami, Bhattiprolu, Pattadakal, Aihole, Belur, Halebidu, Lakkundi, Shravanabelagola, Mahabalipuram, Tanjore, Madurai and the mural paintings of Travancore and Lepakshi temples, also stand as a testament to South Indian culture. The paintings of Raja Ravi Varma are considered classic renditions of many a scenes of South Indian life and mythology.Murudeshwara, a town in Uttar Kannada district is known for the world's tallest Shiva statue. The first known literature of South India are the poetic Sangams, which were written in Tamil between 2000 to 1500 years ago.--->> From where did you get this data and why should I beleive you? Murudeshwara, a town in Uttar Kannada district is known for the world's tallest Shiva statue.-------Prove it? and many more.... Regards, Kensplanet (talk) 16:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 22:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion of Trivandrum.

Hi all., Trivandrum is a major city, a capital city etc., etc., I definitely agree. But it's not as major as the others that are listed. Moreover, it's not as populous as the other cities and the list is "List of large metropolitan cities", which Trivandrum is 42nd. I think, it was removed previously also for the same reason. Just entered this in the talk page to prevent further edit warrings... This is just my view. If yours differ, do reply.Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 15:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I have just added a "Subdivisions" section to the article; I am looking to add a map of the states and districts if available. Maybe we can identify Trivandrum and other capitals on this map. Please let me know if anyone has such a map/map-template. I tried to create it one myself, but there are over 100 districts in South India and the level of detail is making it impossible to complete. Thanks AreJay (talk) 18:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

can we use maps from live local? (local.live.com) I'm not sure of the copyrights...Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 09:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope...they are copyrighted Microsoft data...and plus this would be a raster image and would lack quality. I've worked on a SVG version based on the blank SVG India map. I just need some help editing it...will have a better picture on if I need to reach out to any resources this weekend. AreJay (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Rajithmohan has reinserted Trivandrum with the explaination that the section was about major cities, not most populous cities. The section's title says "major metropolitan areas". A metropolitan area is defined as follows:

A metropolitan area is a large population center consisting of a large metropolis and its adjacent zone of influence, or of more than one closely adjoining neighboring central cities and their zone of influence

The defining feature of a metropolitan area is its population; therefore a large population center is implicit in the definition of a "metropolitan area". I'm therefore going to rv his addition; like I said, I'd be happy to include Trivandrum in the map that I'm working on, but to include the 40th largest city over the inclusion of larger (and therefore more major) metropolitan areas like Madhurai, Mysore and Vijayawada doesn't make any sense. AreJay (talk) 19:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Trivandrum is the largest city (both in area and population) in Kerala. Moreover, it is the capital of Kerala. When you say about major cities, how Tvm can be excluded? The Southern Air Command is headquartered at Tvm. The city has an international airport. Around 80% of the states IT exports comes from this city. The list says about populous Urban Agglomerations. More populous doesnt implies more important. Is Pimpri a major city when compared to Chandigarh, whose population is lesser? Also, the list is about the urban agglomeration, not the city population. Here is the list of most populous cities in South India :

Rank	City	Population (2001 census) India Census 2001	State
1	Chennai	4,343,645	Tamil Nadu
2	Bangalore	4,301,326	Karnataka
3	Hyderabad	3,637,483	Andhra Pradesh
4	Visakhapatnam	982,904	Andhra Pradesh
5	Coimbatore	930,882	Tamil Nadu
6	Madurai	901,681	Tamil Nadu
7	Thiruvananthapuram	744,983	Kerala
8	Salem	696,760	Tamil Nadu

Hence, I suggest to include Trivandrum also in the major cities section, as it is an important city down South.
Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 03:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure where you got this list from, but the most populous city in South India is Bangalore while the most populous metrololitan area (urban agglomeration) is Chennai (links 1, 2). When we use the term "city" is refers to the jurisdiction of one municipal corporation, while the term urban agglomeration implies a larger, more populous area, perhaps spanning multiple municipal corporations. To your point about notability of Trivandrum, every city is noted for something (if not multiple things). I have no doubt that Trivandrum is an important city (I've visited the city and I think it's beautiful) – it's just that we are trying to restrict the list to the top 25 urban agglomerations and Trivandrum doesn't fall into that list. If we were to make a case for the inclusion of Trivandrum, we'd have to make a case for the inclusion of Madhurai, Mysore and Vijayawada, which are all, I'm sure, important and notable in their own right. If you refer to the map in the Infobox, I've included only the capitals of South Indian states and Trivandrum is very clearly mentioned there. Thanks AreJay (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I prepared the list based on the information from the Census website. Go here and search for the population of Bangalore, Chennai and other cities. What you stated regarding Bangalore and Chennai is wrong. According to 2001 census, Chennai is the largest city as well as largest UA. Check world gazatter also. Btw, I have provided the link too. Btw, if you are very much particular about the exclusion of Trivandrum, why to keep and inappropriate section name? Instead of major metropolitan areas, change the title to Populous metropolitan areas. This can convey the message more clearly.. -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 06:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, not sure which World Gazetteer data you're talking about, but there's no ambiguity listed here [1]. In fact even if you look at the source data for your citation in the list that you created [2] it is contrary to what you are claiming...the source is for a list of cities, not urban agglomerations, and indicates that Bangalore is the largest city in SI as of 2008. And even on this list Trivandrum is ranked 53rd, below Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Coimbatore, Mysore, Vijayawada, Madhurai, Hubli and Salem. However, I do take your point that the naming convention in the infobox is ambigious. I will change it to "Most populous metropolitan areas (2008)". AreJay (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that the info-box has been modified to the "Most populous metropolitan areas (2008)", the above discussion may not be very relevant, but let me make a few points. Firstly, the 2001 Census never took into consideration even outlying suburbs of Trivandrum when designating the U/A. This was due to a number of factors, not the least of which was the then-recent expansion of the Municipal Corporation. Secondly, the latest Election data (as of 2005) shows that the city had already expanded beyond a million people and it has consistently recorded one of the fastest urban growth rates in India. Finally, I believe that classifying the importance of cities just by population over factors like their economic, social, historical and geographical significance is an incorrect methodology. If it were true, then Mexico City would have beaten the likes of London, Paris, Shanghai and Washington D.C. to the post. Anyways, just my two cents. Let's not kick up another argument. Good work on the article. Cheers! - Ajaypp (talk) 13:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely agree with you. Thanks AreJay (talk) 15:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Now, after the change of the section name, the ambiguity is removed. The discussion can be archived. Btw, regarding the population of Bangalore, you pointed out the same link that I provided along with the list. I sorted it with the 2001 census data, while you maintained the rank as per the 2008 calculation. The 2008 population is just estimation, but not an authentic one. It reflects a guess figure based on the statistics of population growth. That’s why, I preferred the 2001 census population, which is officially declared and is more genuine. According to 2001 census, Bangalore is not the second populous city in India. However, in the list I created, I missed out Vijayawada and Hubli, which is having more population (2001). I will update the list soon. Thank you for pointing out.
Any ways, great effort in improving the article contents. Go ahead. Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 03:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Coorg and Murudeshwar

I be including some contents from these two articles into this.... Murudeshwara, kodagu. Your comments? Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 05:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Murudeshwara article doesn't seem to have a lot of content while the Coorg article is certainly not lacking in it. What type of contents were you planning on including? Thanks AreJay (talk) 15:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

May be something from Coorg into the Geography section and some thing into the Culture and heritage section from the Murudeshwara article?Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 04:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea! AreJay (talk) 20:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Few more sections

After comparing with other country articles, I felt that, we have to add Education, Transport and probably Tourist attractions to this article. Education should not be just a list of univ in SI, but should focus on Govt policies regarding compulsory education, may also state the reason for higher literacy rates in the South etc., Similarly, Transport, focussing on Southern Railways, road transport, BMTC Volvo (Volvo services for the first time in India) etc., etc., should be added. Tourist attractions, could be sort of a list of important places of interest, Kanyakumari, Ooty, Kodaikanal, thekkadi, Kochi, Coorg, etc., can be added. Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 03:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I had given this some thought previously and had held off simply because of the fact that SI isn't a official political entity like a state/UT, so there's not one government enforcing policies on education, transport, etc. In that regard, I except to see differences b/w the SI article, and others, say, India. However, if you have the time, perhaps you'd like to take a shot at drafting these sections (Education, Transport, Tourism) and see what we come up with...I can definitely help fine tune them as necessary...just remember to keep them in Summary style. Also, I think we can definitely add the "Tourism" section, since, while each state has a tourism authority, there's still enough general information about tourism in SI that can be covered in the article. Thanks AreJay (talk) 04:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that Tourism isn't a major section for India-related articles as prescribed any of the WP:INSTATES, WP:INDIA or WP:INCITIES. In seeming some Indian articles, it looks like mention of tourist destinations is made in the culture or flora/fauna sections. We might need to do that as well. AreJay (talk) 04:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Colonial - Euro Centric Images

There are four images showing people. Two of them are colonial images. Would someone please add images representing actual South Indian people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.47.249.252 (talk) 23:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Name of the article should be: Southern India

Observation
I notice that the main article is hosted on a page titled "South India". Though browsing to "Southern India" also works (by automatically redirecting the user to "South India"), this is inaccurate. There is no geopolitical entity called "South India", except in informal and erroneous (and widespread) usage of the English language.

Description
Technically, "South India" would refer to a nation/state of the mentioned name (not a region, as the fact is). Examples are North America (the name of a continent), West Virginia (the name of a state), and South Korea (the name of a country). The word "South" is one of the four cardinal directions. The only two accepted usage contexts in the English language are: in a proper name (e.g. South America) and to indicate the direction with reference to a particular and already existing entity (e.g. Sri Lanka is to the south of India). The correct way of referring to the region comprising the states of Karnataka, Andhra Pradhesh, Tamil Nadu, and Kerala is "Southern India". The government of India recognizes this anomaly and discourages the usage of the term "South India".

Suggestions
The main article should be hosted under the title "Southern India". Browsing to "South India" should automatically redirect to "Southern India" and a note inserted about the inaccurate usage of the term "South India".

--203.199.115.214 (talk) 05:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Vikram Tayde

Hi, what about South Indian Bank? This is a quite prominent bank in South India. I could tell you many other samples. Can you give us an accurate source, that the government of India declines this name for the southern region of india? Googling provides me 2.4 million hits for South India and just 900 000 for Southern India anyway. --Thirusivaperur (talk) 03:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Economic Comparison North Vs South- Data Obsolete/Article biased.

The data presented in the economy section is obsolete and fictitious, the national per capita income for India in 2008 is USD 1004(nominal) the economic comparison should be done on the basis of Gross Domestic Product of each individual state which depicts a clearer view of economic performance rather than on regional basis which is absurd as great variation exists between the demographic and socio-economic conditions of the states in North part of India. a) The richest states with highest per capita GDP are Punjab, Haryana, Himachal, Gujarat & Maharashtra and union territories of Chandigarh and Delhi. None of the four south indian states is among the top five in the country.

b) Even High Income states are more industrialised, developed and have higher literacy rates than South India. They spend more money per capita on health, education and development than South Indian states.

c) South India is not homogeneous and is divided on the basis of four dravadian languages namely Kannada, Tamil, Telugu and Malayalam. They have their own regional differences and disputes.

d) The situation in South India is not very different from rest of India in terms of poverty, malnutrition, unemployment, politics, corruption, riots, Naxal violence, law and order problem, infrastructure, health and education etc. If you compare South with the worst performing states than it may look better, but the problem remain unresolved. Why not compare South india with some developed country in Asia like Singapore which has per capita income of US$ 26,481 Vs South India of only US$ 625(2004 estimate). This means the per capita income in Singapore is 43 times higher than South India. This clearly indicates that South india is not very different from rest of India and has to go long way before it can boast of having a distinction of developed nation status like Singapore or Japan. source: [3][4][5] --Himhifi 11:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

To respond to this rant, certain states in south India complement each other to give higher averages, so essentially the individual states treatment you are talking about is also valid in your reference to Dravidian states. Kerala for example has the highest human development and literacy rate in India though poor industrialization, whereas cities like Bangalore and Kochi have high per capita incomes. The point being south India has overall higher averages than "north India" though on an individual basis all states have their pros and cons, though I have read sources suggesting south India is developing at a faster rate then even the more developed states in northern India. Anyway averages aren't perfectly accurate to all areas. KBN (talk) 11:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

This is valid arguement and not a rant, the richest states in India also exist in North part of India and economically they are performing better than four South Indian states which are grouped on the basis of culture and language. We can compare states on the basis of GDP for a better analysis of economic performance. Punjab/Delhi the richest states in india can be compared to UP/Bihar or Karanataka/TN irrespective of geographical location. The regional differences and similarities exists between all states in India. There are examples of faster developing regions throughout India like National capital region- Delhi, Gurgaon, Noida. Punjab/Chandigarh, Maharashtra/ Gujarat and Goa not just selective areas mainly metros in South Indian states like Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai etc. --Himhifi 13:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Fastest Growing Cities in the World mostly in North, East & Western India.

Fastest growing cities and urban areas (1 to 100) Rank City/Urban area Country Average annual growth 2006 to 2020, in % 1 Beihai China 10.58 2 Ghaziabad India 5.20(U.P) 3 Sana'a Yemen 5.00 4 Surat India 4.99(Gujrat) 5 Kabul Afghanistan 4.74 6 Bamako Mali 4.45 7 Lagos Nigeria 4.44 8 Faridabad India 4.44(Haryana) 9 Dar es Salaam Tanzania 4.39 10 Chittagong Bangladesh 4.29 11 Toluca Mexico 4.25 12 Lubumbashi Congo 4.10 13 Kampala Uganda 4.03 14 Santa Cruz Bolivia 3.98 15 Luanda Angola 3.96 16 Nashik India 3.90(Maharashtra) 17 Kinshasa Congo 3.89 18 Nairobi Kenya 3.87 19 Dhaka Bangladesh 3.79 20 Antananarivo Madagascar 3.73 21 Patna India 3.72(Bihar) 22 Rajkot India 3.63(Gujrat) 23 Conakry Guinea 3.61 24 Jaipur India 3.60(Rajasthan) 25 Maputo Mozambique 3.54 26 Mogadishu Somalia 3.52 27 Gujranwala Pakistan 3.49 28 Delhi India 3.48(National Capital Region) 29 Pune (Poona) India 3.46(Maharashtra) 30 Las Vegas USA 3.45 31 Addis Ababa Ethiopia 3.40 32 Indore India 3.35(Madhya Pradesh) 33 Faisalabad Pakistan 3.32 34 Rawalpindi Pakistan 3.31 35 Brazzaville Congo 3.29 36 Peshawar Pakistan 3.29 37 Khulna Bangladesh 3.24 38 Suwon Republic of Korea 3.23 39 Karachi Pakistan 3.19 40 Asunción Paraguay 3.17 41 Lahore Pakistan 3.12 42 Asansol India 3.11(W.Bengal) 43 Riyadh Saudi Arabia 3.09 44 Dakar Senegal 3.06 45 Multan Pakistan 3.06 46 Valencia Venezuela 3.05 47 Jakarta Indonesia 3.03 48 Brasília Brazil 2.99 49 Port-au-Prince Haiti 2.98 50 Palembang Indonesia 2.94 51 Jidda Saudi Arabia 2.93 52 Accra Ghana 2.93 53 Agra India 2.93(Uttar Pradesh) 54 Hyderabad Pakistan 2.91 55 Bandung Indonesia 2.90 56 Wenzhou China 2.90 57 East Rand (Ekurhuleni) South Africa 2.89 58 Wuhan China 2.87 59 Mosul Iraq 2.86 60 Amritsar India 2.85(Punjab) 61 Bursa Turkey 2.85 62 Manaus Brazil 2.83 63 Meerut India 2.83(Uttar Pradesh) 64 Yaoundé Cameroon 2.80 65 Changsha China 2.80 66 Belém Brazil 2.79 67 Bangalore India 2.79(Karnataka) 68 Heze China 2.78 69 Tijuana Mexico 2.77 70 Shantou China 2.77 71 Maceió Brazil 2.75 72 Algiers Algeria 2.74 73 Ahmadabad India 2.73(Gujrat) 74 Lucknow India 2.72 (Uttar Pradesh) 75 Douala Cameroon 2.71 76 Austin USA 2.69 77 Bhopal India 2.69(Madhya Pradesh) 78 Atlanta USA 2.64 79 Ujung Pandang Indonesia 2.63 80 Ludhiana India 2.63 81 Managua Nicaragua 2.62 82 Zhanjiang China 2.59 83 Karaj Iran 2.59 84 Jamshedpur India 2.59(Bihar/Jharkhand) 85 Mecca Saudi Arabia 2.56 86 Vadodara India 2.55(Gujrat) 87 Davao Philippines 2.53 88 Kanpur India 2.53(Uttar Pradesh) 89 Ciudad Juárez Mexico 2.51 90 Tegucigalpa Honduras 2.51 91 Shenzhen China 2.51 92 Srinagar India 2.50(Jammu & Kashmir) 93 Coimbatore India 2.49(Tamil Nadu) 94 Abidjan Côte d'Ivoire 2.49 95 Yangon Myanmar 2.46 96 Dhanbad India 2.46(Bihar/Jharkhand) 97 Rabat Morocco 2.45 98 Aleppo Syria 2.42 99 San José Costa Rica 2.42 100 Khartoum Sudan 2.41

Only two South Indian cities Bangalore at 67th position and Coimbatore at 93rd position could make it to the fastest developing cities in the world. Source: [6] --Himhifi 01:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

South India covers a lot less area and population then the north. Similarly if you can find statistics on the least developed, both economically and human, places in India, the majority would be in areas of Indo-Aryan India which you have by error called North and Western India as you have highlighted eastern Indian cities as well. It is also likely that these statistics that you have shown will change in time. KBN (talk) 01:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition, I also found the following sentece at the top section to be contradicting,

South India ranks the highest in terms of social and economic development in areas such as fertility rate and infrastructure; the fertility rate of South India is 1.9, the lowest of all regions in India.

So, the lower the fertility rate, the higher the ranking? Wasill37 (talk) 07:42, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Punjab & Maharashtra Tops the list in Human Development Ranking.

Human Development Ranking by State(2001)

State            Rank      GDP Per Capita
                           
Punjab           1         2
Maharashtra      2         1
Haryana          3         4
Gujarat          4         3
Tamil Nadu       5         5
Karnataka        6         6
Kerala           7         - 
Andhra Pradesh   8         7
West Bengal      9         8
Rajasthan        10        9
Madhya Pradesh   11        10
Assam            12        -
Uttar Pradesh    13        11
Orissa           14        12
Bihar            15        13

Source: [7] [8] --Himhifi 11:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

2001? I assure you Kerala is the leading state in human development at this time. This source says that states like Punjab while having good per capita income, has low human development. [9]

This is pure non-sense, or what else. Just go to Indian sensus and search there. Gujarat will take another 10 years (2020) to reach what kerala achieved in 1990!!!! (203.99.197.2 (talk) 06:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC))

Revised map

File:South.india.JPG

South India

About 33 per cent of the census 2001 population of India live on one-third of the landscape. This is south India comprising Gujarat, Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Kerala and Tamil Nadu.Anwar (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2008 (UT

A discussion on the constitution of the South is in Archive 2. I don't think the term "New South" exists (or has been accepted) in India...we have to be careful not to bring in WP:OR into the article. Thanks AreJay (talk) 16:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Anwar, could you provide a reliable source for including Maharashtra and Gujarat as well as Goa to the South Indian region? --Thirusivaperur (talk) 18:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Maharashtra and Gujarat are part of the region known as Dravida along with the other south Indian states, however most definitions of south India refer to the four states. KBN (talk) 10:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

South India Defined

On what basis is South India defined in this article? With the Southern United States, the distinction is clearly based on secession during the Civil War. This entry, however, fails at present to attach the notion of "South India" to any clear variable(s). It is this omission that will continue to evoke requests of cartographic modification like the one above. Before we delve into History, Geography, Flora, and so on, I think we must first clearly define (with appropriate citational support) why the particular geographic region we have identified constitutes "South India." sæ (talk) 21:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed n times so far... Check the talk archives. For your information, you can search for "South indian states" in google. Reverting it back. If any one has a problem please discuss...

Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 01:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Mugunth. Perhaps this was already discussed, but isn't some sort of internal citation in order, particularly for the WP user who does not consult talk page archives? sæ (talk) 00:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Not an South India vs North India article

All the comparisons are with North, if one wants to show progress relative- a more balanced approach would be a comparison with all regions and not just one. Haphar (talk) 09:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone willing to discuss the inclusion of the table?. KBN (talk) 11:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Source is "India Information", I have never heard of the site before, but still even if one was to consider it, how does one reconcile the fact that India's per capita income is stated as US$ 1004 in the India article ,and this site gives the data as Rs 13000 + PCI for South India and Rs 8000 + PCI for North India ?. Where is the drag down to Rs 4000 coming from, considering that West should be doing well? Even if we get the correct information, a better approach might be to get a national average and compare that with that of the South to show how South is doing well ( which it is !). Haphar (talk) 11:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this...Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 12:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no clue how this happened. The original table that I added a few years ago was sourced from Outlook India. It seems to have been replaced now by this whereincity website whose credibility is nil. I am going to go ahead and remove that table for now because it is sticking out like a sour thumb; meanwhile, I'll try to go back through the history to see if I can find my citation. Thanks AreJay (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just updated the table. AreJay (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, could you add it to the Economy of South India article too ? Even there the other table had been put and I removed it yesterday. Haphar (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The new table is good... Let's go with this...Mugunth^{(ping me!!!,contribs)} 04:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Question about names

Hello, can someone knowledgeable about South India tell me the following (to my discussion page):

1. The literal meaning of the name "Subramaniam"/"Subramanian"

2. The literal meaning of the name "Ramanathan"

Thank you, Badagnani (talk) 08:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Subramanian is derived from Sanskrit and not a Proto-Dravidian language. Su (means good, or dear), while barmanian (means Brahmin), translating losely to dear to Brahmins. Ramanathan comes from Rama and nath, meaning Lord. Thanks AreJay (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, you mean "bramanian," not "barmanian," correct?

One more question: what does the "Bala" in Balasubramanian mean? Badagnani (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, bramanian not, barmanian. Not too sure about Balasubramanian. Bala means young in Sanskrit. The name Subramanian is typically a reference to the elder son of Shiva, Shanmukha; I can only infer therefore that Balasubramaniam means Shanmukha as depicted as a child or young adult...similar to Balakrishna (Krishna as a child) or Balamurali (A young, flute-playing Krishna). AreJay (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

How nice that the meanings of these common names are now (with your help) finally being "unlocked" for me. Badagnani (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

One more: Ranganathan. Badagnani (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

And another: Krishnamurti. Badagnani (talk) 21:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ranganathan is Vishnu, as depicted resting on Shesha Naga. Krishnamurth(y/i) means idol (form) of Krishna AreJay (talk) 00:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but what does "ranga" mean literally in Sanskrit (is it "gathering place")? And what does "murthy" mean literally in Sanskrit ("idol")? Badagnani (talk) 01:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The "an" is a Dravidian suffix added to Sanskrit words, "am" is also used. Trips (talk) 14:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Cant we include Goa in this Section

if we say south india goa should also be included or is this based on linguistic culture? --Neal007 (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Typically South India means the parts where Dravidian Peoples live or where Dravidian languages are spoken. Goa does not come under South India for this reason, the main language there is Konkani which is an Indo-Aryan language. Of course if you look at it from a geographic context the entire peninsular portion could constitute a "South India" but it is seldom reffered to in a geographic sense. --Deepak D'Souza 05:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

wrong data of urdu speaking population (Urdu is spoken by over half of the 25 million Muslims in southern India)

in kerala muslims are around 24% kerala population ,every one's mother tonque only malayalam %

this is 11% population of south india is musilm (i.e 25 or 2.5 crore people) but only very few musilm have mother tonque urdu,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila

read about kerala musilm

know about musilm with mother tonque tamil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Muslim

only muslim in andhra (i.e hydrabad area ,they only have urdu as mother tonque)

and converted musilms in karnataka to adopted urdu as a mother tonque

ect.... maximum around 50 to 75 lacks people in south india speaks urdu , pan india musilm every one converting as urdu speaking muslims — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.48.53 (talk) 09:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

India Page Image Rotation VOTE

There is currently a vote going on to decide the images to be selected in the Demographics Image Rotation. Please carefully see the proposals and vote for your 8 favorite images that best represent the people of India.

Please vote here.

Thanks. Nikkul (talk) 05:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Kutuwa language?

A recent edit (22 January 2013) has included Kutuwa language as one of the languages spoken in South India. Can some more details about this language be added? Or shared on this page? Where is this spoken? Any reference to its existence and recognition by linguistics?

Anant (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Has Malayalam been declared a classical language?

The Languages of India article seems to show that only Tamil, Kannada and Telegu have been officially declared as classical languages by the Indian Central Government. Is there any notification, which can be cited, to state Malayalam has been officially declared a classical language? There also seem to exist some criteria for declaring languages as classical. Please see classical language. There are many good things about Malayalam culture, including some well known historical contributions to medicine and mathematics. These could be highlighted some where? Anant (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this into notice. No, Malayalam is not yet granted the status of Classical Language. I have removed it from the article. Thanks TheStrikeΣagle 13:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality

So, what exactly is the problem with the neutrality of the tagged sections? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Gallery

This article is drowning in images now. How about a gallery, or removing several pictures? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Urdu offiicial language of South India

Urdu is official langugage of south India, check official language of new state telangana and Andhra Pradesh before its divide. Try to know before you just bluntly deny it as someone did with editing — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afroze.shaikh (talk • contribs) 10:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:South India/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 11:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi! I will be reviewing this article. Adding my comments in 24 hours. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 11:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Cool! Good to work with you again! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

I am working on duplinks and reference from the bottom of the article. Will update once done.Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Sainsf, Guess all the changes have been made. Pls chk once and we can close this! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 20:06, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Lead

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 06:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• I would like to have the citations removed from the lead and adding them to the main text.Y
• South India includes the southern part of the peninsular Deccan Plateau and is bounded by the Bay of Bengal in the east, the Arabian Sea in the west and the Indian Ocean in the south --> Covering the southern part of the peninsular Deccan Plateau, south India is bounded by the Bay of Bengal in the east, the Arabian Sea in the west and the Indian Ocean in the south.Y
• Link plateau, fertility rateY
• two mountain ranges the Western and Eastern Ghats bordering --> two mountain ranges-the Western and Eastern Ghats-borderingY
• are the largest urban areas in the region. I think it is better to say this directly : "are the millionplus urban agglomerations in the region." (there are about 15 million plus agglomerations and did not want to list everything Magentic Manifestations (talk) 04:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC))

Etymology

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 06:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Italics not needed for South/Peninsular IndiaY
• Deccan --> "Deccan"Y
• anglicized--> anglicised. This article should follow British English or rather Indian EnglishY

Ancient era

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 06:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Starting from the Sangam period, trade happened with Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Syrians, Jews and Chinese --> Trade with Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Syrians, Jews and Chinese began from the Sangam periodY
• Please add how long ago the Sangam period wasY
• Several dynasties ruled over the region such as "Several dynasties such as ... ruled over the region."Y
• How are these dynasties arranged? In the order of their periods of rule?Y(arranged as per period start. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 04:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC))
• When was the Vijayanagara Empire founded here?Y

Colonial era

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 06:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• in 15th century , end of Vellore Mutiny "the"Y
• control of South India "of" --> "over"Y
• consolidated power "their"Y
• Link princely state if this is the first mentionY
• Duplink: British East India CompanyY

Post Independence

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• After Indian Independence in 1947 --> After the independence of India in 1947Y
• As a result of this act "Act", not "act"Y
• What is taluk?Y
• "the" Bombay State, "the" Hyderabad StateY
• union territory Link?Y
• June 2, 2014 Best to write 2 June 2014 Y
• Many duplinks: Madras State, Travancore-Cochin, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Hyderabad State, Kerala, Mysore State, South Canara, Karnataka, PondichéryY
• As a result of this Act, Madras State retained its name with Kanyakumari district added to from Travancore-Cochin Not sure what this meansY
• Why has Mysore State been separated from the others into a separate para?Y
• comprises ten districts in northwestern Andhra Pradesh Not sure what this meansY

Geography

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Don't repeat "by the" in the first lineY
• Both the ghats What is a ghat?Y
• Duplinks: Eastern Ghats, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Lakshadweep, Deccan plateau, Bay of BengalY
• Palakkad and Wayanad hills, and the Sathyamangalam ranges Is a comma needed? It may alter the meaning.Y

Climate

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• with rainfall dependent on monsoons --> and depends on monsoons for rainfallY
• In the Köppen climate classification, it is a non-arid climate --> According to the Köppen climate classification, it has a non-arid climateY
• with mean temperatures of minimum 18 °C (64 °F) What does this mean?Y
• Andhra Pradesh gets between commaY
• falls on Tamil Nadu "in" not "on"Y
• with mean monthly temperatures... for agriculture Needs some fixing. Convert template?Y
• "north-east" not "North-East" monsoon same for South-WestY
• which brings devastating bringY
• Tropical cyclones are rapidly rotating... Bay of Bengal Grammar errors. The whole of this is actually redundant.Y
• Duplinks: Western Ghats, Lakshadweep, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, North–East Monsoon, Bay of Bengal, Arabian Sea, Tropical cyclonesY
• The last para on tropical cyclones seems out of scope.Y

Subdivisions

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 08:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Source for the intro para?Y
• Don't link union territories if already done as requested in HistoryY
• Is every point of the tables sourced? How are sources arranged here?Y(changed and sourced as per census 2011; Andhra was split later and hence added sources separately for AP and TS. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 08:47, 20 March 2016 (UTC))
• Duplinks: Puducherry, Lakshadweep and Andaman and NicobarY

Demographics

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• The region's total fertility rate Add (TFR) so that we are not confused with it when used later on.Y
• What is replacement level?Y

It looks a bit more messy. We need just the link here. Please restore the line and simply link the term. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)Y

• tap water. Wells and springs Too common to be linkedY
• The Per capita income No capsY
• by United Nations "the"Y
• Duplinks: Kerala and Tamil NaduY
• Can it be a bit clearer that the next two paras after the intro are based on the 2011 census?Y

Languages

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• seventy-three We should typically write this in digitsY
• Official Languages Act no italicsY
• Duplinks: Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Konkani, Government of IndiaY
• No caps for speakers and spoken in the tableY
• Sources for the number of speakers?Y

Religion

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Prehistoric religion why caps?Y
• world traces its commaY

Seems you did not fix it well. Done now. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 05:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Link ArabY
• Duplinks: Hinduism, Jains, Malabar coast, Deccan Sultanates, Muziris, Kerala, Jewish communitiesY
• Do you not think the discussion about the history of religion should go to the History section? (According to me, it makes more sense to be with religion as the sub section deals with it exclusively. It is not notable enough to overall history to be included in history section. Let me know your comments. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 15:59, 21 March 2016 (UTC))

Economy

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• after independence no link needed here Y
• Link socialist Y
• Duplinks: Kerala, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, monsoons, Godavari, cotton, tea, rubber, spices, Chennai, Telangana Y
• is the second most industrialized state in the country After which state?Y

Administration

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Puducherry and the other five states has an elected state government while the Lakshadweep and Andaman islands are centrally administered by the President of India Repetition from "Subdivisions". I think it would be better if "Subdivision" comes before this section or is the first subsection under this.Y
• Can you add a title for the gallery?Y
• Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Puducherry follow unicameral legislature while Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Telangana follow bicameral legislature. Source? This line should anyway go to the next para.Y
• Duplinks: centrally, President of India, coalitionY

Politics

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Duplinks: Madras Presidency, Self-Respect Movement, Tamil Nadu, Indian National Congress, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka Y
• led the party on the death of Jawaharlal Nehru You mean after the death? Y
• Indian National Congress should be linked at first mention in the section Y

Clothing

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• The dance, clothing, and sculptures of South Indian exemplify the celebration of the beauty of the body and motherhood Could this be more encyclopedic? We can write beautifully but this seems a bit too flowery and unclear. This intro may not even be needed.Y (Moved down and rephrased. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC))
• There are more than 80 recorded ways to wear a sari and the most common style is for the sari to be wrapped around the waist, with the loose end of the drape to be worn over the shoulder, baring the midriff. Seems out of scopeY
• In Indian philosophy, the navel is considered as the source of life and creativity and hence by tradition, the stomach and the navel is left unconcealed Does this imply that because of this philosophy the stomach and navel are kept bare?Y (yes exactly; re-worded. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC))
• While the colorful appearance of dhotis is mentioned, that of the saris is not.Y
• western dress is getting increasingly popular since when?Y

Cuisine

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Duplinks: rice, spices, coconutY
• using clean fingers of the right hand to transfer the food to the mouth. Source?Y

Arts

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 07:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Cinema

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 17:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Source for the table? It needs to be updated for 2015. (CBFC has not released data for 2015. Last updated is 2014 in website. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:58, 21 March 2016 (UTC))
• South Indian film industry released 1032 feature films in 2014 contributing to 53% of the total films produced in India. This could be added for every year. So what is the significance of this line? It can be covered by the table for the latest year. (modified it. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:58, 21 March 2016 (UTC)) Y

Literature

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 07:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Architecture

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 07:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Transport

• Bus services are provided by...Puducherry Road Transport Corporation. Source?Y
• Source for the road density column of the first table? And for all points in the following tables?Y
• 80-mile link convertY
• Much of the "Rail" part could go to the History section(Again, in my opinion, it feels appropriate to be in rail section as it is specific to rail transport. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2016 (UTC))
• The region is covered by water on three sides and has a long coastline redundant(first mention. It is not redundant. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2016 (UTC))

When you say South India is peninsular, this is what is implied isn't it? Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 18:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Got it. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 20:02, 22 March 2016 (UTC) Y

• Major ports include Chennai, Visakhapatnam, Mangalore, Tuticorin, Ennore and Kochi. Don't leave this unsourcedY
• Duplinks: Madras Presidency, Madras Railway, Indian NavyY

Flora and fauna

 Done Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 05:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• What is this section doing at the bottom of the article? (Pl. suggest where should it go. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 12:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC))

Shifted to the bottom of Climate. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 05:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• high altitude rain forests --> rainforests located at high altitudes Y
• the backwaters of Pulicat and the backwaters of Kerala Can we avoid repeating "backwaters"? Y
• one of the largest populations in India? World? Repair this in the caption Y
• Karnataka, in colon not comma Y
• crest-line What is this? Y
• In the last line some animal names begin with caps, why? Y
• Duplinks: UNESCO, Pulicat, mangrove Y

Sources

Similar comments as in earlier reviews and a few issues:

• Bracket to be removed in ref.5Y
• In refs. 4 and 5 can you write the way you have in, say, refs. 8,9,10? Looks neater.Y
• Italics and link for The Hindu (ref.7) Please see that all newspapers are linked appropriately in the citationsY
• ref. 30: mention the author (Geological Society of America)Y
• ref. 63: not properly cited. Use the cite-journal, feed 19001685 in the PMID parameter and click autofill. That should work. You can also add http://medind.nic.in/iby/t08/i8/ibyt08i8p198.pdf in the URL parameterY
• ref. 80: Use cite-journal templateY
• ref. 116, 123, 125: proper formattingY
• ref. 188: why is the journal name repeated?Y
• refs. 193, 194: ISBN?Y
• ref. 213: The publisher should be "IRCTC"Y
• ref. 237 Link Indian NavyY
• ref. 241: dead linkY
• ref. 242 Link UNESCOY
• refs. 77, 99, 107, 110, 121, 157, 159, 229, 233 look inappropriate or not so reliableY

An FAC-level point: Please ensure that e are using Indian/British English throughout the article. I am trying to help with this. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

All done. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 15:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Found time for this today, I will add all my comments. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 04:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Alright, all my concerns have been appropriately addressed. In my opinion the article now meets all the criteria for a good article. I am glad to promote this. Cheers! Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 03:44, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! It was good working with you again! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 18:11, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Exclusion of Andaman and Nicobar

Andaman and Nicobar islands have been included in South India, while in actuality they are part of East India. In fact the East India page also lists these islands and the geographical society of India (which is administered by the Government of India) also considers these islands as part of East India, see | this link. Further the Government of Andaman and Nicobar Islands makes no mention of the union territory being part of South India (unlike Puducherry and Lakshadweep).

Kindly look into this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.75.75.86 (talk) 08:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

This discussion happened a few years ago, but I just happened upon it. I'm surprised no one has addressed this. Your source looks reliable, so I'll remove Andaman and Nicobar Islands from the page, as they appear to be part of East India rather than southern India. Kalariwarrior (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

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Correcting the Infobox

The Infobox has broken down due to some syntax issues, we need to fix it. Death pilani (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

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Regarding Udupi Cuisine

I was simply browsing through the edit history and found out that all the additions of Udupi Cuisine (given with source) have all been reverted. Everybody in South knows about the specialty of Udupi cuisine and its prominence in the South. Please provide a satisfactory explanation regarding the undoing of that edit.--YoYoRockNRoll (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)YoYoRockNRoll

User 202.134.163.150 : I have added your source and oint of Udupi Cuisine but have removed the 'rave reviews' and ;has gained prominence' part as it is irrelevant. Please stick to the point and do not add useless adjectives or phases.--YoYoRockNRoll (talk) 08:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)YoYoRockNRoll

Removal of the phrase "Dravida Nadu" from infobox.

I am not sure why the phrase "Dravida Nadu" is used in the info box. It is not a traditional name for southern India. In fact, as far as I am aware, it is a name which was made up by Tamil nationalists and separatists in an attempt to create some sort of "Dravidian identity."

In fact, even the Wikipedia article of Dravida Nadu states that it is a "hypothetical state."

The ONLY people I have ever seen using that name are Tamil nationalists and people from related "Dravidian parties" in Tamil Nadu such as DMK. This name being in the info box is appears to be politically motivated, and should be removed, as it is a potential violation of WP:NPOV, and its usage by fringe groups such as Tamil nationalists is likely a violation of WP:FRINGE.

Wikipedia policy does not allow for politically motivated statements to be put on articles. I am removing the name in the name of the violated policies stated above. I putting this on the talk page to receive any feedback on the matter. If there are any objections, feel free to voice them. Kalariwarrior (talk) 07:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:North India which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:31, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Tulu in lead

Why was Tulu given such a prominence in the lead? I'm pretty sure it's a POV push. — DaxServer (talk) 09:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

It was introduced in here on 28 September 2020 — DaxServer (talk) 10:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned references in South India

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of South India's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "eb-calico":

• From Calico: Encyclopædia Britannica (2008). "calico".
• From Kozhikode: Encyclopædia Britannica (2008). calico

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Dakshin Bharat

I don't think it's sourced, is it? Also, it's a transliteration from Hindi which is not a majority language and thus, even if sourced, would be WP:UNDUE in lead as the majority-language transliterations are not set. Ping @Rasnaboy — DaxServer (t · m · c) 08:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. Please feel free to remove it if you feel so. The reason why I retained it was that, unlike those anti-Hindi partisan narratives claim, the term wasn't an exclusively Hindi one. It's an ancient, pan-Indian term (of Sanskrit origin, such as the term "Bharat", and hence is common in many Indian languages, including many South Indian ones). It simply means southern Bharat. Unlike other regions of India (North, West, East) which are somewhat loosely defined, South India is a pretty well-defined cultural region, with a relatively stable definition. Hence I though of retaining it given its cultural significance. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Have added a citation, too. I also noticed that this is how it is known in many of the southern languages including Telugu and Kannada. Rasnaboy (talk) 08:47, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is known as such. My objection is the transliteration. If the Telugu version is transliterated, it would be "Dakshina Bharatadesam" te:దక్షిణ భారతదేశం. Kannada seems like "Dakshina Bharata" kn:ದಕ್ಷಿಣ ಭಾರತ. Either way, is that how the it's spelled in the book you've added? — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

No. The source is for the meaning of it. It doesn't include the variants. The "Desam" in the Telugu is just an additional suffix meaning country or land. I mean to say it's a pan-Indian term like Bharat. Even the term "Bharat" can have numerous regional variants like "Bharatam", "Bharata", "Bharata Desam", "Bharatha Kandam", etc. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no proper evidences that describe South India as "Dakshana Bharata". It's just like imposing "Vadakkans (General southern terms to address north india)" on North India article. @Rasnaboy Cite the valid reliable sources properly and stop making false accusations against me which is WP:BULLY.

I have seen lot of users dispute your claims. You're still reverting your poor sourced claims. That's why I reverted the edit which made by unknown ip. But seems like you're the sock of that ip. Bobwikia (talk) 09:26, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If you insist on retaining this appellation based on Sanskrit, I suggest you modify it to Dakshina Bharata or Bharatam, since the south has not resorted to schwa-dropping, which is dropping the a in the end of words that Hindi and other Indo-Aryan languages have done. Chronikhiles (talk) 08:25, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The appellation is not based on Sanskrit but on Southern languages such as Kannada and Telugu, which still use the term primarily. Nevertheless, I see they both use the terminal schwa, with several variants (such as "Bharatam" in Telugu) adding to it. So I'll go by your suggestion of retaining the "a" at the end. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 12:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

"Dakshin Bharat" is just an equivalent term for "South India" in Hindi and some other Indic languages (with arguably different possible transliterations). It is not however a term commonly used in English-language sources to refer to the region as a search on Google Books or JSTOR easily establishes (afaict, all the hits correspond to "Dakshin Bharat" appearing as part of name of organizations such as the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha). As such the term does not belong in the article, let alone in the lede. Abecedare (talk) 22:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. Pinging @DaxServer and @Chronikhiles for their opinion to reach consensus. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Abecedare — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rasnaboy I also agree with Abecedare as far as the English Wikipedia goes. Chronikhiles (talk) 12:01, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Abecedare — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Am removing it per above consensus. Thanks everyone. Rasnaboy (talk) 12:16, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer@Abecedare@Chronikhiles@Rasnaboy Thank you all, you can ask me any help such as citing articles and creating articles. I'll be there for you at any time.

@RasnaboyI don't know why you have been dragging this much. But I'm glad that you removed your political pov (Pro brahminical imposing) from the article. Dakshina Bharata is also a Hindi promotion organization that imposes Hindi on non-Hindi-speaking regions. Imposing a culture, language, and idealogy on a peaceful society will destroy identity and originality. Also, it will create conflicts. The beauty of people is their originality and uniqueness. I hope you have the maturity to understand this. Everyone should respect each other's language and culture instead of imposing to celebrate superiority over them.

I don't know anyone here. I want to work with other editors. So you can ping me at any time if you would like to work with me. I'll be useful and helpful.

Thanks @Maproom for revealing that rasnaboy was accusing innocent users as vandalisers, on the noticeboard. Bobwikia (talk) 14:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)