Talk:Solovetsky Stone (Saint Petersburg)/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 03:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Opening statement

Hello, and come what may from this review, thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. During the review, I may make copyedits, which I will limit to spelling correction and minor changes to punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. The Nominator(s) should understand that I am a grammar pedant, and I will nitpick in the interest of prose quality. For responding to my comments, please use  Done,  Fixed,  Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or  Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 03:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• and fighters for freedom Actual combatants or just activists?
  • You see, it is a very complicated matter, there was no possibility to actually combat the repressions, but calling the fighters 'activists' would be a simplification that wrenches all the idea. The article further explains the matter: the wide group of those, who were killed or exiled only for thoughts or behaviour that didn't fit the system, sometimes without any reason at all. ELindas (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
• the Bolshoy Dom. and the Bolshoy Dom.
  •  Fixed ELindas (talk) 07:36, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• both themselves being the political prisoners in Soviet times. Consider: "themselves political prisoners during Soviet times."
  •  Fixed ELindas (talk) 07:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• dedicated to the perpetuation of the victims of political repressions Confusing. The paragraph to which this is appended is largely superfluous.
  • I deleted the phrase, but it's unclear to me, what paragraph is superfluous, the one in the opening? ELindas (talk) 07:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
    • The last paragraph of the lead, yes. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 18:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
      •  Fixed I've cut some text and added it to the paragraph above.—ELindas (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Construction and symbolism

• The monument is based on the Solovetsky Stone The one in Moscow? If so, consider replacing "based on" with "inspired by".
  • I've rewritten the phrase to be more clear.—ELindas (talk) 08:21, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Apologies for my poor English, initially in the Russian article it meant "to be made of".—ELindas (talk) 09:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• which took several hundreds of thousands of lives and turned into a denominative. Not neutral. Delete this and replace it with context on the gulag system. Namely, what was it, how long it operated, how people it "processed", its geographical range, and impact on Soviet and post-Soviet society and culture.
  •  Done—ELindas (talk) 09:47, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I've just used couple of phrases, because in my opinion all the info on the Gulag could be obtained from its own article, and being more worldy here would only overload this one.—ELindas (talk) 09:49, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• reached 18 mln, at least 1.5 of them died Expand "mln" to "million".
  •  Done
• I am not sold on the credibility of Radio Free Europe to talk about the gulag system. Keep its usage to an absolute minimum if you cannot replace it outright.
  •  Doing... Will look for replacements!—ELindas (talk) 09:58, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
    •  Done, left it in one place only.
• Here in 1923 the protests against violations of prisoners' rights ended with the staged provocation from the jailers and mass shooting up. Lacks context and reads confusingly.
  •  Fixed —ELindas (talk) 08:47, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• the hill in 100 meters from the Savvatiyev Skete Confusing.
  •  Fixed—ELindas (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• Footnote B: (also with based on the Solovetsky stone) Delete "with".
  •  Done—ELindas (talk) 08:24, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• The Voznesensky Skete on the Sekirnaya Mountain served as the punitive confinement and the executions were done on this location. Rewrite.
  •  Done—ELindas (talk) 08:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• From a certain angle, the stone resembles an elephant, [...] If at all possible, the angle this is referring to, if illustrated in the gallery below, should be pointed below. If I'm not mistaken, the angle is the second image.
• [...] Solovetsky camp's name. The Solovetsky camp's name.
  •  Done
• [...] Anna Akhmatova's poem "The Requiem": [...] Poem title should be in italics.
  •  Done
• [...] makes the monument worldwide significance. Gives the monument worldwide significance.
  •  Done
• The monument stands in front of the Former Political Convicts Residential House, which was built in the early 1930s for political prisoners of the Tsarist-era and active revolutionaries. The Russian Empire did not exist in the 1930s.
  • Of course, and it was hated by the Soviets, exactly that's why the House was built — to honour communists, who were political prisoners themselves during the Empire times. I'll try to modify the phrase to be more obvious.—ELindas (talk) 12:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
    •  Fixed
• [...] dedicated to fighters of 1917. The fighters. Consider changing "fighters" to "dead", and adding a link to the relevant fatalities. "Fighters" is overused and draws an equivalency between the revolutionaries and GULAG's victims.
  •  Fixed
• Across the Neva to the East there is the Bolshoy Dom, [...] "East" should not be capitalized, and "there" should be axed.
  •  Done
• [...] built in the 1930s residence of the NKVD, which now hosts its heir—the FSB. A couple problems here. "Residence" is awkward and erroneous, and "its heir—" is incorrect and should be removed.
  •  Fixed
• As rumored in the Soviet times, the Bolshoy Dom was a place, where political prisoners were tortured and murdered. Put this into Footnote 3, and delete the comma before "where".
  •  Done
• To the West Troitskaya Square borders to the Peter and Paul Fortress, since the Tzarist era its Trubetskoy Bastion was used as a political prison. Rewrite. "West" should not be capitalized, "Tzarist" is inconsistent with "Tsarist", and there is a comma missing in the front end of the sentence.
  •  Done
• Soon after the revolution the opposers to the Soviet government were incarcerated there.[25] Chronologically, that is the first location of the Great Purge.[27] Combine.
  •  Done
    • Consider: After the revolution, the Soviet government incarcerated political prisoners here,[25] and it would later become the first location of the Great Purge.[27] –♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:26, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
      •  Fixed
• In 2007 near the Golovkin Bastion there was discovered a mass grave of victims of the Red Terror, presumably including four Grand Dukes of Russia [ru]. Condense, replace the bluelink in the ILL with a red one for the shootings it's linking to.
  •  Done
    • Consider: A mass grave was discovered at the Golovkin Bastion in 2007 and found to contain the bodies of victims of the Red Terror, perhaps even four of the Grand Dukes of Russia. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:26, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
      •  Fixed
• massive antireligious campaign of the Soviet Government. Delete "massive", link to the USSR anti-religious campaign (1928–1941).
  •  Done
• The vicinity to locations of the state terror strives to reveal the Solovetsky Stone's meaning and underline its up-to-date significance. Totally redundant and rebuffed by the attached Footnote 4.
  •  Fixed

Referencing

• Citations [7] and [17] are missing the journals they're citing.
  •  Fixed ELindas (talk) 07:55, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• Сахаровский центр" has no citations pointing to it.
  •  Fixed—ELindas (talk) 08:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• Citations [3], [4], [5], [8], and [18] do not point to any references. I recommend just using "|ref=harv" at the end of Citation templates to automatically generate a Harvard (Name Year, p. #) citation.
  •  Fixed
• References "Heller, H. (2016-08-16)", "Likhanova, T. (2001)", and "Voltskaya, T. (2016-05-26)" are not used by any citations.
  • Ooops, that's from the short biographies of Rybakov and Ukhnalyov, which I added to their articles. Will remove from this one!—ELindas (talk) 15:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

20th century

• For the first time the idea to commemorate the victims of political repressions was officially announced in 1961 at the 22nd Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Order of clauses here is erroneous.
  • Hope its  Fixed, I've rewritten. —ELindas (talk) 08:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Was the idea announced or was it just discussed for the first time? I'm confused by the prose here. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
• But as soon as in 1964 De-Stalinisation and fight against Stalin's cult of personality were seized, while silencing of dissent increased again. Rewrite.
  •  Fixed, I've rewritten. —ELindas (talk) 08:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
• Still, the idea persisted [...] Delete "Still,".
  •  Fixed —ELindas (talk) 08:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
• In the 1980s, during the Perestroika reforms, the democratization and relaxation of censorship gave rise to open discussions of the previously forbidden topics. This resulted in the major growth of interest and awareness of state terror. New social groups demanded to pay the deserved tribute and commemoration of the victims of political repressions. Condense.
  •  Fixed —ELindas (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
• Finally, the government issued several directives to support such initiatives. When exactly is "Finally"?
  • N Deleted, that was just a figure of speech in the Russian version.—ELindas (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
• At the end of the 1980s, the 'Memorial' society was established. Does the society have a name?
  • Yes, it is named the 'Memorial'! If it's unclear, how should I mark it? —ELindas (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Hmm. Trying using the Russian, Latin alphabet form of "Memorial" after introducing them as the "Memorial Society". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
      • In Russian it is Мемориал, maybe I'd better use the "Memorial Society" in every case?—ELindas (talk) 12:10, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
        • Yup, that will work. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 17:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
• [...] to fully disclose and discuss the tragedy of the Russian state terror. Condense. The purpose of the memorial is understood by its being a memorial.
  • N Deleted
• [...] victims of the Stalin's terror [...] the Stalin? Why not "Stalin's terror" or "the Stalinist terror"?
  •  Fixed
• However, the social activists protested [...] Remove "the". No particular has been named here.
  •  Removed
• [...] not only during Stalin's terror. Redundant.
  •  Removed
• The temporary sigh, in its turn, would help raise social awareness "here and now". Delete.
  • Maybe you'll give me advice how to correct it? Because it is an important point, that the temporary sign helped raising awareness until the monument was erected. —ELindas (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
    • I've removed the sentence and added "as a placeholder" to the previous one in reference to the sign. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
      • Perfect, thank you!—ELindas (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• This time it considered the demand of the social activists Remove "of the social activists".
  •  Removed
• However, no winner was chosen in the competition, the city government lost interest in the initiative, and the second round was canceled. Condense.
  •  Fixed
• In 1996 the city administration announced that it considers building the monument based on the project of Edward Zaretsky. Expand on this. Who was Zaretsky? What is his relevance here?
  • There's some info on him added as a comment, hope that's enough! —ELindas (talk) 09:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Talk about him in the prose, rather than the comment. Specifically, who he was and what he did (exclude birthate). I'm seeing: The municipal government announced in 1996 that it would build a monument based on the ideas of Edward Zaretsky, who created the monument to Jewish victims of political repression at the Levashovo Memorial Cemetery. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
      • I've added a bit more, hope it's all right!—ELindas (talk) 12:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• The Memorial's idea of a huge monument could not be fulfilled. The hopes vanished completely after the 1998 Russian financial crisis outbreak. Condense, and remove the word "outbreak".
  •  Fixed
• The first three paragraphs after the image gallery suffer from WP:PROSELINE. Combine the Zaretsky paragraph with the one before it, since they're both about controversial moves by the city in regard to the monument.
  •  Done

21st century

• At the turn of the new century, [...] Consider "turn of the new millennia".
  •  Done
• [...] the 'Memorial' society renewed the attempts to create the monument. The new socio-political climate wasn't suitable for raising such topics as the Gulag terror—Russia's new president was an officer of the KGB. Some social activists didn't believe the administration would allow to build the monument. Condense, and name Putin if you're going to mention him.
  •  Done
• Finally, Veneamin Iofe decided to follow the examples of Moscow and Arkhangelsk and to install a rock from the Solovki Islands. Under what authority? The last time Iofe was mentioned, he was just the co-founder of the Memorial Society. Did he just campaign for it with more energy?
  • I've changed the sentence a bit, is that more clear now? The idea is that Iofe as one of the most active members of the 'Memorial' was inspired by Moscow's and Arkhangelsk's cases, where the monuments were already erected, and decided to ask the administration to allow to put the stone slab, as other cities did.
• Finally, the monument was included in the list of events, [...] When exactly?
  •  Fixed
• The short biographies for Yuly Rybakov and Yevgeny Ukhnalyov are unnecessary; they have articles of their own.
  •  Removed
• [...] on a large scale granted by former political prisoners and their families. Consider "mostly from former political prisoners and their families."
  •  Done
• Considering its weight [...] the stone's transportation to St. Petersburg became a challenge. The help came from everywhere—local fishermen, the staff of the Solovki museum, cranemen, agar factory director, and others. Condense.
  •  Done
• Combine all the information about official permission in the final paragraph of this section into a single sentence.
  •  Done

Significance

• Among the annual actions there is also the returning of names—an initiative when a citizen reads aloud the names of innocent victims, murdered during the Soviet years. Not neutral.
  • Changed the sentence!—ELindas (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• The Solovetsky Stone also became the traditional location of public meetings, [...] Traditional for whom?
  • Deleted the word.—ELindas (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• [...] murdered anti-fascists Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova, [...] Axe "murdered" and delink "anti-fascists". Consider either adding the titles/professions of the listed people, or removing the titles/professions that are named. You should group together those listed people that are victims and say as much.
  •  Fixed
• [...] the recently announced Day of secret police workers When was this day announced?
  • In 1995, not quite recently, I've changed the phrase.—ELindas (talk) 10:51, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• [...] painted with fylfots and offences [...] What offences exactly?
  • Added the exact translation.—ELindas (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• In 2015 the traditional December Memorial Day was disturbed by a march of people with Hitler's portraits. Do you mean that they were carrying portraits of Hitler or examples of his paintings?
  • Portraits of him, I've changed the phrase!—ELindas (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

GA progress

Article passes CopyVio scanner with only a 9.9% likelihood. Images are all free or tagged and relevant to the article. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 17:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

All images are free or tagged and are relevant to the article. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 01:19, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Status query

Vami IV, ELindas, where does this nomination stand? As far as I can tell, no edits have been made to the article in the past four weeks, and the last post here was a couple of days after that. Can we get this moving again? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you for the reminder! The pandemic consumed all my attention lately... I've resumed my work on this article, hope it gets better. —ELindas (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

  ELindas, Hoping you're able to revisit this. Would love to see the article promoted to Good status. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

  • Thank you! I'm in a rural area currently, with very poor Internet connection, but I surely will do all the corrections. I believe that Vami IV will go through sections 'Significance' and '21st century' with his comments, I'll fix the text and then the article could be promoted. —ELindas (talk) 09:11, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
    • It is as ELindas says; I am a patient reviewer. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.