Talk:Solid Snake/Archive 2

Real-world chronology and the total rewrite

When I totally rewrote this article, I placed the non-canon games in their place in the real-world order of release, instead of separating them. I think it's important to place them in their real-world historical place because they reflect the development of the character. Snake's Revenge, for example, is probably the furthest Snake went towards becoming a pastiche of action movie heroes; you start to see this trend reversing with MG2:SS, then you really first see a non-derivative character appear with MGS.

Additionally, Wikipedia isn't here to document the canon. Wikipedia is here to document the real world. There's a great tendency to pretend the non-canon games don't exist, or marginalize them; I don't really think we're here to tell the fictional life history of these characters, but instead describe their role in the real world. WP:WAF goes over why we should do this. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What's this about deserving? The alternate versions are as much a part of the development of the character as the canon versions. What does deserving have to do with anything? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's break this up into subtopics. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Non-canon games

When I totally rewrote this article, I placed the non-canon games in their place in the real-world order of release, instead of separating them. I think it's important to place them in their real-world historical place because they reflect the development of the character. Snake's Revenge, for example, is probably the furthest Snake went towards becoming a pastiche of action movie heroes; you start to see this trend reversing with MG2:SS, then you really first see a non-derivative character appear with MGS.

Additionally, Wikipedia isn't here to document the canon. Wikipedia is here to document the real world. There's a great tendency to pretend the non-canon games don't exist, or marginalize them; I don't really think we're here to tell the fictional life history of these characters, but instead describe their role in the real world. WP:WAF goes over why we should do this. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I only agree to a certain extend. I think the article should cover non-canon games, but only if they were originally established as canon and then retconned. Ghost Babel and the Metal Gear Ac!d games were meant to be their own thing, seperated from the mainstream Metal Gear universe (much like how the Ultimate Marvel universe is different from the main Marvel universe), I think they should be covered seperately too. Snake's Revenge is abnormality. On one hand, it was meant to a canonical sequel to MG1 and then retconned. On the other hand, it was a pastiche and barely had any involvement from the original creator. Jonny2x4 05:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping to break this article up by character design rather than focusing on strictly telling a canon story. How about sticking Snake's Revenge between MG and MG2 (Kojima claimed to like it, and that it influenced MG2), sticking MG:GB with MGS because the MG:GB blurb is short and the take on Snake is VERY similar to the MGS take, and setting MGA as a parallel development? I did that in the article, just now. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox images

Please don't use the MGS4 image for the infobox; the bulk of this article is about the Shinkawa-designed Snake or variations on same, MGS4 gets exactly one paragraph in this article, and the game isn't even released yet. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, the MGS4 Snake is also designed by Shinkawa. On one hand, I can see the reasoning for using the MGS1 or MGS2 Snake over the MGS4 version on the infobox, since those two are the versions most casual fans recognized. On the other hand, these is plenty of pre-release MGS4 hype from Konami's official press vault (including wallpapers), and we can't ignore that either. If we're gonna use only one MGS4 image, I rather it be the E3 2006 instead of the TGS 2005 version, since that's the most current. Jonny2x4 05:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The younger design also appears in three games (and two to five remakes, depending on how you count) to date, with three more games using derivatives of it.

As for the E3 vs. TGS thing, they're both exactly the same character design in different poses, and I greatly favor the smaller, better-focused image without the distracting background. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The E3 2006 render is more up-to-date and detailed. I found a better image without the background from a Chinese website. Too bad it's not high-res. http://games.sina.com.cn/t/n/2006-06-20/1428155887.shtml Jonny2x4 18:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't have the Solid Eye. There are two major changes for MGS4 (he's old, he has the eyepatch), and that image doesn't have one of them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Snake won't be using the Solid Eye all the time in the game. It's an optional equipment and essentially a substitute for the Thermal/Night-Vision Goggles. The only reason he wore it during the TGS 2005 trailer was to fool viewers into thinking that Solid Snake is Big Boss. He never wears it in the E3 2006 trailer.Jonny2x4 19:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Could we please use an image that does show the Solid Eye since the prose and the image caption both mention it, and it's one of the two major appearance changes in MGS4? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The facing-right screenshot, while an attractive screenshot, doesn't show the patch hardly at all either, because it's from the right side (and the patch is on his left eye). That screenshot was already discussed and discarded on the image talk. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Render vs. Shinkawa drawing

if we're gonna use a render, I would prefer one from an actual Metal Gear game

By all means, then, provide one. In the meantime, it's the best clear image we have that shows what Solid Snake looks like in the MGS games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Decorative images

When I rewrote the article, I intentionally discarded most of the images. Right now, we have two Shinkawa images, two MGS4 images, and two early images to back up the pre-MGS Snake looking like action movie heroes. We only need one infobox image, then one of each the rest. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, can we please not use this, a massive image that is only questionably fair-use, when we have a much smaller, more-focused alternative from a press kit? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Headers for each game

Please, no. Having a header for each game encourages editors to lengthen each section's plot summary, which we don't need. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, but if you look at your summary for MGS2 its skin and bones compared to the others, it needs a bit of lengthening (The Bread 07:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

He's a supporting character in that game, and has about 15 minutes on-screen after the Tanker chapter. Why does it need lengthening? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That was quick. It doesn't need too much just a little bit more of why he was there (Aresenal, GW ect) (The Bread 07:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Not really. Metal Gear Solid 2 can cover that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you look at your descriptions of the other Metal Gear games they pretty much tell the reader why he was there (The Bread 08:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Those games have fairly straightforward plots. MGS2, I dunno. If you can figure out how to describe what Snake was doing in MGS2 in a paragraph, go right ahead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I took a crack at it, and I'll add a cite for the Snake/Raiden switcheroo being controversial. Does that cover it, or did you want to take a shot? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That's sweet man, i didn't even think about the whole Snake/Raiden thing, I was thinking also something about him going to get the Patriots but if you think that'll be a bit much i'll give it a miss. Otherwise i'm happy (The Bread 08:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Go right ahead and take a crack at it; I just don't want to get bogged down in explaining a really twisted story that doesn't greatly involve Snake anyway, you know? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I went and added a little bit about The Patriots on at the end, I will think about it and try to write it better but it should do for now (The Bread 08:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Caption

“ The Yoji Shinkawa-designed version of Solid Snake is used in Metal Gear Solid and later games. ”

None of these pictures are actually used in any game, and this particular design, the Shinkawa Snake, is indeed used in MGS, as well as MG:GB and MGS2, and form the basis for the MGS3 and MGA designs. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well no freaking duh! Of course, none of the pictures are used in-game. But these are all promotional character artworks/renders done during the release for each game, to represent how the character's looks in-game. The illustration in the infobox was a promotional character artwork done for MGS2. Even though they all use the same general design, there's still various slight differences between them. Solid Snake in MGS2 is slightly fatter than he was in MGS1 (who was designed after Van Damme with Christopher Walken's face), has a mullet and facial hair, and his sneaking suit in MGS2 is basically a watered-down version of the MGS1 suit. They may only be slight differences to you, but differences are still differences. Jonny2x4 15:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh. Well, there you go then. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Retcons

This is part of what I mean by focusing on a real-world perspective. I don't want to be pretending that pre-retcon versions of characters don't exist, or that non-canon games don't exist or weren't influential in the development of the character. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

His full name has always been Dr. Pettrovich Madnar in Metal Gear 2, even in the MSX2 version. Jonny2x4 05:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

He's referred to as "Dr. Pettrovich" in the MSX version; he's only referred to as Madnar when they refer to his whole name. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Point taken then. But in the MSX2 version of MG2, they already established Madnar as his true surname and only used Dr. Pettrovich out of custom from the first game. Jonny2x4 05:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, since we're talking about the 1990 version of the game right there, can we please use the 1990 name? The retcon is already mentioned. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Van Damme/Walken inspiration

“ According to Yoji Shinkawa, the Snake in the first Metal Gear Solid, is not youthful looking like in the first Metal Gear, nor middle aged like in Metal Gear 2, but serves as a middle ground between the two. His physique was based on Jean Claude Van Damme, while his facial appearance was originally based on Christopher Walken. ”

Apparently this is based on a Japanese interview from the official Metal Gear Solid website, and added to the article by Jonny2x4 (talk · contribs). Thing is, the site is in Japanese; Jonny, can you read Japanese, or is there a secondary source that had translated this article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can read Japanese a bit. Basically Shinkawa says that he had a hard time finding a balance between Snake's different designs in the two MSX Metal Gear games. So basically, Kojima ordered to give him a well fit body like Van Damme's to represent his youth, but a face like Walken to make him older looking and more experienced. Kojima pretty much tells a similar story in the Metal Gear Solid: Official Mission Handbook. His interview can be found here Jonny2x4 15:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a copy of Metal Gear Solid: Official Mission Handbook so that it can be cited? Can you convert the citation for the above to {{cite web}}? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't personally have it, but I do have a scan from the book with the interview. Here it is. [1] Jonny2x4 16:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, without the book, it's hard to cite without the author's name, the publishing date, the publisher, and so on.

Can you convert the interview from the Konami site to {{cite web}}? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

GA Failing

• Missing italics where there should be.
• Lack of references
• Lack of fair use rationales

This article needs a cleanup, especially the cameo appearance area, it's a train wreck. Please shrink the YuGiOh image, and cleanup, and re-apply. Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 16:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I checked the article, and there was one single game name not italicized ("Metal Gear" is both a game name but also a fictional object within those games; is that the source of the confusion?), and any claim that isn't nothing other than plot summary of a game (which is always attributed to a game, if not strictly cited with an inline cite) is cited (sometimes twice). I'm also unclear how the cameo appearances section is a "trainwreck." Could you please be more specific? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yu-Gi-Oh Trading Card Game should italicized, and I think TGS 2005 (I've seen E3 italicized, apologies otherwise). There's double info in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl section, one is referenced. I'll {{fact}} the uncited stuff. Cheers, Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 20:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In the YuGiOh section, I would explain what "common" means, and link if the card is actually Solid Snake, rather than a joke. I'd probably also point out that Konami make YuGiOh. Cheers, Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 20:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that the names of games that aren't works of fiction aren't italicized; you wouldn't italicize Yu-Gi-Oh TCG any more than you'd italicize Candyland.

The card is just a reference; I don't want to get bogged down in is-it-or-is-it-not-actually-Snake since it's obviously a reference (although I'll clarify why; I think this one is a "Bland observation by a reasonable adult" kind of thing but the article is currently kind of vague).

As for rarity, I'll just ditch it. Nobody who doesn't play CCGs cares about that kind of thing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

“ In Ape Escape 3, a platformer game from Sony Computer Entertainment, Solid Snake appears in a mini-game. In the mini-game Mesal Gear Solid, he helps out Pipo Snake, by sending him help via codec. ”

What kind of a reference are you looking for, here? It's cited to the game, and even called out to the game "In Ape Escape 3..." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, are you looking for an inline cite to the game itself, or a cite to some secondary source? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Either. Just some clarification it isn't original research. Cheers, Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 21:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm kind of lost. How does an inline cite instead of "In such-and-such game..." make any difference regarding original research? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures?

Why were the the MGS2 and MGS4 full body shot pics of Snake taken down? Why is his default image the SSBB version instead of the GOTP version?

Because we only need one picture per design, and we already have a MGS-series pic, and a MGS4 pic. The SSBB picture is in the infobox because it's the most common Snake design, and it's CG (like in the games) instead of a sketchy painting. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I prefer if we're gonna use a render, then use a render from an actual MGS game. Why not use the Solid Snake from MGS4? He's still designed by Yoji Shinkawa after all Otherwise, stick to artwork. Jonny2x4 01:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Because he doesn't look anything like the Solid Snake that has appeared in a half-dozen games. Ideally, I'd like a render from an actual MGS game, but since this is obviously using art assets from Twin Snakes, it's the best we have. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember that a Render of Snake from Twin Snakes used to be in the article, but somebody took it down. That might work if somebody found it. -MentosC 01:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But Snake never looks the same in each of the canon MGS games. He goes from clean-cut thirty-something guy in MGS1, to middle-aged man with mullet and stubble in MGS2 and moustached old fart in MGS4. I vote Keep the artwork. Also, I oppose the use of Twin Snakes renders. Jonny2x4 02:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a vote, so don't bother voting.

I'm not 100% happy with this image, but we need something that looks like he does in the games, and something that looks like the MGS/MGGB/MGS2 Shinkawa Snake. We really shouldn't use a sketchy design image for the infobox, because someone could play every single game in which Solid Snake appears without once seeing that image or anything like it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Two things - One, you're not the dictator of this article, only a contributor like everyone else. You don't have the final say in everything. And two, people are smarter than you give them credit for. I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain who played the MGS series could recognize Snake from a conceptual artwork (especially if they have the instruction manual). I mean the Final Fantasy articles uses Amano artwork for characters and most of them don't resemble their in-game counterparts. Jonny2x4 02:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you going to make a case that the infobox should have a picture of a version of the character that is mentioned in exactly one paragraph of the article? I'd like to hear it.

The Amano artwork is even worse, as it's even more stylized and unrepresentative. I'm basically adhering to the comic Wikiproject's rules for infobox images: an image of the most-recognizable version of the character, favoring representative images over stylized ones. Can you see any reason not to use that standard? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem I have with the Smash Snake render is that he doesn't exactly look like that in any of the canonical games. He wears the MGS2 sneaking suit, but has full beard (not stubble) like Naked Snake. I much rather have a representative drawing of Snake from a canon game than an in-game render from a non-canon game. At least Snake render from MGS4 will be used in a canon game. And like I said, they're all designed by Shinkawa and there's subtle differences between them. Jonny2x4 04:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It's the Twin Snakes design, no question. (And Twin Snakes isn't canon? According to whom? Wait, I don't care, because it's exactly the same story.)

Largely tangential discussions of canonicity aside, this image isn't sketchy and has all of the main details of the Shinkawa MGS Snake. An equally-clear, equally-representative image from an actual Metal Gear game would be good, but for now it's better than sketchy concept art or the older Snake design only used in one, unreleased game. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Who the hell isn't going to notice the MGS4 render of Solid Snake? For one, it's all over the place, and two, it's the current Metal Gear hype. I say put the MGS4 render back up.

That design is used in one, unreleased game. The MGS/MGS2 Snake design is used in three games (MGS, MGGB, MGS2), three remakes (MG, MG2, MGS:TS), and at least three cameo appearances (Ape Escape, Evo Skateboarding, SSBB), and it's the basis for the MGS3 Naked Snake, the MGA Snake, and indeed the MGS4 Snake. Can we please stop with the MGS4-in-the-infobox thing? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

No, we can't, because like someone previously said, you're not the dictator of this article, only a contributor like everyone else. Your word is not final. Second of all, the MGS1/MGA1 Snake design is used in three games (MGS, MGA1, and MGGB. The last two aren't canon, but both look exactly the same as MGS1, so it shouldn't matter). The MGS2 design is noticably different, and was only used in two games (MGS2, SSBB). It was not used in Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2, or The Twin Snakes. It was not the basis for MGS3 Snake, because he doesn't wear a bodysuit. It's easier to say it's a basis for the MGS4 render, but the MGS4 render should be used because it's his current canon appearance. And by the way, you've contradicted yourself. Just because MGS4 hasn't been released doesn't mean it's render can't be used; SSBB hasn't been released either, yet you're so fond of it (the head/face is different). I say make the MGS4 render the default picture, and show his appearance in the other games as well. Why his MGA2 picture was taken down, I don't know, but it was probably for a BS reason you tried to reason. As for the argument you use in saying the SSBB look is his most recognized, I don't think so, and if it is, who cares? Obviously, someone looking him up on wikipedia is trying to learn about him, so why would we NOT put up pictures of each of his appearances?

I say dump the the Mario one, keep the MGS2 illustration until MGS4 is released, then add an MGS4 render/character art. I plan to do that once MGS4 is released. (The Bread 23:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC))

I think that the SSBB Render should stay unless a render from MGS2 or Twin Snakes is used. This is because I believe that the illustrations, even though they look nice, do not accuractely portray how he looks in the games. I also think the MGS4 render should not be used, because it does not represent his basic appearence throughout the series. The SSBB render so closely resembles his appearence in MGS2, that for now I think it would be the best choise. -MentosC 00:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• He doesn't have a basic appearance. And even if the SSBB or MGS2 models were used, the full body render of the MGS4 design, as well as the MGA2 artwork, should still be included in the article.

Canon doesn't matter.

The middle-aged, sneaking suit Snake is half of the article. The middle-aged Snake is in nine games (eight if you don't count MGS2, which I do but hey I see the argument), one of which is unreleased.

MGS4 is one paragraph in this article. The older Snake is in one game, one of which is unreleased.

Can we stop with this now? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hell No, you've opened up a can of worms here.

For one thing of course canon matters, if it didn't by your logic i could write a section on Snake being one of the Brady Bunch

Secondly that picture isn't Snake, It's Big Boss in a sneaking suit, Snake never had a beard, other than in that Mario game

All the other MGS character articles use the most recent image of a character. You using the middle aged Snake for this one is like using 19 year Old Ocelot, or a better example would be using the young Big Boss (i.e Naked Snake) for his article because he's more recognisable

This whole discussion won't end quickly because despite what many may think, Old Snake is still Solid Snake

(The Bread 02:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

Canon doesn't matter when talking about which image is more representative or recognizable.

Secondly that picture isn't Snake, It's Big Boss in a sneaking suit, Snake never had a beard, other than in that Mario game

You're killing me with this. It's the SSBB model, which is based on the Twin Snakes model.

Actually, Raiden doesn't use the "most recent" version of the character, because 90% of that article is about MGS2 Raiden, not ninja!Raiden.

LET'S USE THE VERSION OF THE CHARACTER MOST OF THIS ARTICLE IS TALKING ABOUT PLEASE. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. MichaelBillington 02:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, all i'm looking for is some consistency in the Metal Gear pages. Which we have none of here. I'm going to drop the subject until MGS4 come out, but it will crop up agian (The Bread 02:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

"Actually, Raiden doesn't use the "most recent" version of the character, because 90% of that article is about MGS2 Raiden, not ninja!Raiden."

So what? The full body shot of his ninja outfit is still there in his profile. Put the same thing, the MGS4 wallpaper, back in this article. And use a damn picture of Snake from one of the Metal Gear games he's actually from. The version of the character should be the most current iteration. Why? Because this article is talking about SOLID SNAKE. SOLID SNAKE = OLD SNAKE = SOLID SNAKE. Not NINTENDO's Solid Snake, Konami's Solid Snake. I've had about enough of this. Who's going to change the picture?

We have a picture of Old Snake. However, one paragraph of this article is about Old Snake. The bulk of the article is about the MGS Snake and derivations of same. That design or derivations of it is used in a dozen-plus games. We're not going to favor one unreleased game over a dozen games that you can actually have in your hands right now, sorry. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

And of course by "we", you mean you. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Old Snake is MGS Snake. Replace the current MGS4 picture with the wallpaper version, restore the MGA2 picture, and make the primary one a picture of Snake that's actually from a Metal Gear game, regardless of how many games it appears in.

The wallpaper MGS4 image doesn't show the Solid Eye, which is discussed in the prose. The MGA2 image has been restored; it was only ever removed because it was unsourced. (Thanks to Jonny2x4 for sourcing it.) As for using an image from an actual MGS game, that was never argued; I just couldn't find one that was as clear as the SSBB one that wasn't a variant design (Old Snake, MGA Snake) or a sketchy Shinkawa concept/promo painting. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a full body shot of Old Snake with the Solid Eye patch on at the GameSpot galleries. It was actually used here in the article before it was replaced by the wallpaper version. Important fact, Snake starts out in MGS4 WITHOUT the Solid Eye, and acquires it later on, said Kojima himself. Plus, the wallpaper has the updated white hair as opposed to the dark gray hair, and updated the assault rifle. Pick either one. As for the main image, hop on over to the official TTS page. There should be a full body render of Snake there like there is of every FOXHOUND member besides Octopus.

Can you link directly (or more proximately than "Gamespot" and "the TTS page" so others can see these images? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

TTS Render: http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs_tts/english/chara_snake.html Gamespot MGS4 render: http://i.i.com.com/cnet.g2/images/2005/257/reviews/926596_20050916_screen010.jpg

The current MGS4 render that's up is perfect, leave it alone. Now all you need to do is trade places of the MGS1 pic and the MGS2/SSBB render, leave the descriptions, just change the MGS1 shot from the drawing to the TTS render I provided in the link above. Then it'll be fine (unless someone adds the MGA1 design back, so they're both present like they were previously, then it'd be perfect.)

Well, if we're not going to cover the Solid Eye (probably a good idea, in retrospect), the MGS4 render is fine.

The TTS render you found is PERFECT. I'm just going to orphan the SSBB render and use the TTS one for the infobox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's an idea: Leave the MGS4 full body shot as is, and re-insert that image of Old Snake with the Solid Eye on from the TGS trailer. Detail it with a caption pointing out the Solid Eye as a gadget of Snake's that was purposely made to give Snake a Big Boss look. I'd do it myself but I don't know how. Don't forget, drop the SSBB render down into the paragraph about MGS2.

We only need one MGS4 image, and let's leave any discussion of the Solid Eye until the game comes out and we see how important it is. It might just be a little nod to Big Boss, or it might be some hugely important part of the game. Until we have the game, there's no way to know.

The SSBB render is getting orphaned. We don't need two separate images for the Shinkawa MGS Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you changed it Man in Black because i'm still seeing the old "Big Boss with Snakes Sneaking suit on" Snake. (The Bread 01:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

I changed it. Your browser is still displaying the cached image. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

When will it stop? (The Bread 02:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

Click the edit tab, then the article tab. It should work. Man in Black, replace the artwork (NOT THE RENDER) of Snake from MGS1 with the MGS2/SSBB render and change the caption. Also, I left you a message on the discussion page of the Metal Gears.

No. He doesn't look nearly that detailed in MGS. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ahh good job, that's more like it, a Snake form a Metal Gear game (Still want Old Snake, but this is pretty good) I'll go read that message now. (The Bread 02:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

I changed my mind. I much rather have the Smash Bros. Snake at the infobox (even if it's just Naked Snake in the MGS2 sneaking suit) rather than the ugly Twin Snakes version of the render. Anything, but Twin Snakes. Also, please stick to the Shinkawa artwork of the MGS1 Snake. Don't replace with a render. It's feel wrong not to have a Shinkawa illustration of Snake in this article. Jonny2x4 02:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you griping about the TTS design in general, or the quality of this particular image? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Also the render won't replace the artwork, there's drawing of Snake still there aswell. (Still we need old Snake as the infobox picture)

We're not using variant designs in the infobox. :P - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You've already said that, and i'm happy with the TTS render for now (The Bread 02:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

Well I admit I do have a bias against Twin Snakes, but it's more about the image/model itself than the game. I prefer the Nintendo-modeled Snake over the Silicon Knights-modeled Snake due to its higher quality. I took the liberty of keeping the TTS Snake, but replacing the Shinkawa artwork in the text with that of the MGS2 Snake. Jonny2x4 02:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Please don't. The MGS1 design is the design that would be used in or modified for a dozen later games. It's the first and arguably the most recognizable. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Leave the TTS render in the infobox as is. You don't need the Shinkawa artwork there now since the same outfit/look that was used in TTS, and it doens't make sense to have the same look twice. The MGS2/SSBB render should be in its place, that way the article contains a render of all of Solid Snake's appearances in the Metal Gear Solid series. If you're going to ignore this logic and keep the artwork in anyway, then you should still add the MGS2/SSBB render to the article anyway, for the reason stated above.

Agreed. This is why I've replaced the MGA1 Snake with the MGA2 version. Besides, I much rather use artworks/renders from first party-developed MGS games than third party games. Jonny2x4 03:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That's the exact opposite of what I said to do. I said to replace the MGS1 and MGS2 artwork with the TTS and SSBB renders.

More picture insanity

The different versions of Snake:

1. The Michael Biehn Snake from MG
2. The Ahnold Snake from Snake's Revenge
3. The Mel Gibson Snake from MG2
4. The Shinkawa MGS Snake from MGS, MG:GB, and the MG/MG2 remakes
5. The MGS2 Snake
6. The Twin Snakes Snake
7. The oddball generic Naked-Snake-in-a-sneaking-suit used in SSBB and Mesal Gear Solid/Snake vs. Ape
8. Naked Snake
9. Old Snake
10. MGA Snake
11. MGA2 Snake

Did I leave any out?

In the meantime, we have a picture of #1 (and thus don't need #2 or #3; none of them are particularly influential and we only need one movie-based Snake). I feel we don't need more than one of #5-7 because they're such minor variations on #4. We don't need #8 since it's a different character and so little is said about MGS3. We definitely need #9 since it's such a radical departure, but since it's a variant we don't need it in the infobox. I feel we only need one of #10 or #11, since the MGA designs are by the same artist and convey the style.

I feel we need #4 for the body of the text and some variant on #4 (so #4, #6, or #7) for the infobox, since #4 is the design all of the others are somehow based on, and some close variation on #4 for the infobox because #4 is so prevalent.

Let's find out what everyone wants and figure out what makes everyone equally unhappy (and best satisfies WP:FUC, so no superfluous images just to make someone happy) before fighting over this or that image any more. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

#9/Old Snake Because all the other ones are "dated" to a point and do not represent who Snake is, you can then add in MGS2 artwork and MGS artwork (to the article) to show the other ways Snakes looked, and add Acid 2 to the section on Acid, and MG2's Shinkawa artwork (although i do think the MG orginal looks pretty cool) (The Bread 03:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

Please pick one of #6 or #7 for the infobox, or offer some way we can have a more-detailed version of #4 for the infobox. We're not going to use a variant design (#8 or higher) for the infobox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Why'd you list all of them then, you don't have a monopoly on this article, I still vote for #9, and encourage anyone else who agree's with me to do so aswell(The Bread 03:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

and #7 is a variant design anyway (The Bread 03:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

Man in Black, do not make rules and refer to yourself as "We." Second of all, I say make #6 the infobox version. Don't say that the MGS2/MGS4 are "variants" of the MGS1 uniform. The MGA1 one is the only variant of the MGS1 uniform. Include the SSBB render of Snake for the MGS2 version of his uniform. Leave the Old Snake render alone. #4 isn't needed from the text, it's unnecessary to have the same MGS1/TTS uniform shown twice, and the render would be best to use to stay consistent with the MGS4 and SSBB renders. THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE. I personally feel using the Old Snake render as the infobox image would be best since it'd be consistence with all current profiles of characters currently in MGS4 that have current renders available. But, my comprise is as I stated above.

In my eyes, the Twin Snakes image is the only one we can use. Illustrations do not acurately portay how they look, because of how stylised they are. The MGS4 design could be changed drastically before the game is released, and looks so different from other versions, that it doesn't represent his appearence well enough throughout the series. Considering that so much people are against the SSBB image because it's not from a metal gear game, and that there is no available MGS2 render, Twin Snakes is the final alternative. Besides, all the render is is an updated version of his appearence in MGS1. Twin Snakes may not exactly be a fan-favourite, but it works the best. MentosC 03:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's just between 6 or 7, I'll choose 7. However, I much rather use one of the Shinkawa illustrations of 4 or 5 for the infobox and in the text of the article. If I find a high-res render of Snake from MGS2, I'll upload it, but until then, stick to the Shinkawa artworks. I don't like using third-part renditions of the character (Twin Snakes or otherwise). Jonny2x4 04:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether it's a first party or third party image doesn't matter, that's a bullshit argument to try to back up your biased stance and you know it. People are saying the renders are the best to use because they're the most current, and clearest images of the character. And because the TTS render is from an actual Metal Gear game, and the fact that it's Snake's first look in the MGS series, trumps over the non-Metal Gear image from SSBB. The Shinkawa illustrations aren't clear enough. Remove the fanboy bias from you logic.

That's not a bullshit argument at all. I disagree with J2x4, as I don't feel that the TTS renders are "third-party" in any appreciable way (they're higher-res versions of the MGS designs), but it's not a bullshit or fanboy argument to prefer a KCET design in an article that is largely about a KCET-created character. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop the discussions and just vote, we've already tried that and nothing worked

I don't appreciate anyone calling me a "fanboy", especially from someone without an account. I did admit I have a bias against Twin Snakes, but I have other reasons for not using the Twin Snakes renders outside of my dislike (more like apathy actually) for the remake, like the fact that the game was made by Silicon Knights, not Konami. I simply prefer the Shinkawa-illustrations. I can accuse of you of having an Anti-Shinkawa bias for the same reasons, since you don't want to use artworks in the article. Jonny2x4 05:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not I have an account shouldn't mean a thing, you might as well live in the 60s and say "I don't appreciate my contradictions being called on by a black person." I love the Shinkawa illustrations, but for clarity, they're not the best at all. So no you can't accuse me of that. What company made the game shouldn't matter, I'm vouching for clarity and consistency above all else.

The title to this is very appropriate, this is insanity, this section was set up to try and reach a consensus on the Snake picture, yet we have personal attacks and endless menial discussion, from here on out everyone just state which one you want and leave it there, no responses are needed to people's votes and no more discussions, please (The Bread 05:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

Waste of time Jonny, Man in Black is going to revert your edits back to the render versions and this debate is going to continue -_-0

You're absolutely right I'm going to revert when someone puts a variant design in the infobox. J2x4, anon, and Bread, decide which variation on the MGS Shinkawa Snake you want in the infobox. Personally, I'd prefer a render or screenshot of some kind, but at this point, I don't really care. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not a variant design! Jesus christ, get that out of your head already. The only "variant" of the MGS1 outfit is the way Snake looked in AC!D 1. THAT'S IT. Everything else is its own design.

I've uploaded the in-game render of Snake from MGA1. It's not from a canon game, but he does look pretty much like he does in MGS1 and it is from a first-party game. Also, the MGS2 Snake NEEDS to be in the article in some way or another. Jonny2x4 22:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That angle sucks. Find a better one.

- "I'm going to revert when someone puts a variant design in the infobox. J2x4, anon, and Bread, decide which variation on the MGS Shinkawa Snake you want in the infobox"

Ok now on this, you know i want MGS4 Snake, but if it's going to constantly be reverted by Man in Black i'll change my vote to either the MGS1/TTS Render/Artwork, i'd rather have the Artwork of Snake as opposed to the render as it is from an actual MGS game, and not from the remake (The Bread 03:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

I've got it under control. MGS4 render in the infobox, MGS1 and MGS2 artwork in the article. Now everyone's happy.--Snake Liquid 04:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what I always wanted, but i suspect someone will change it

(The Bread 05:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

Don't worry, I've got your back.--Snake Liquid 06:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

J2x4 found an excellent render of Snake from MGA. The E3 render of Old Snake is in the article. Are we done now? I was hoping to get this article tightened up and cleaned up for Peer Review, since it's not far from featured status. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, we're not. I'm reverting it, because the MGS4-in-the-box version shows all of Snake's looks, once. Not the MGS1 look repeated twice, then the MGS4 render, and the MGS2 look left out. I think the majority here wants the current Snake in the infobox, with his MGS1/MGS2 looks shown in the article. It's that simple.

I agree, not an Acid pic. Either the TTS render or the Old Snake (Preferably Old Snake), and he's right, I bet you most people do want Old Snake. I know Wikiedia isn't a democracy, blah, blah, blah ; but if we are trying to reach a consensus the majority will want Old Snake.

(The Bread 07:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

No, hardcore MGS fans want Old Snake. Wikipedia is not for hardcore MGS fans. It's for a general audience, and the general audience is far more likely to have played one of the dozen games the original design appears in (the design the bulk of this article talks about!) rather than the design from one game that isn't even released yet.

The MGS4 Snake image is equally, if not less, relevant to the bulk of this article as putting the Snake's Revenge cover in the infobox. (Snake's Revenge gets two-and-a-half paragraphs; MGS4 only gets one.)

Now, please, stop putting an image with a variant design from an unreleased game in the infobox unless and until that variant design is in as many games and is as major a focus of this article as the dominant one. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, not that one, it's no good.

1. The angle is crap
2. You can barely see his face
3. It's from Acid

If you're gonna revert constantly against popular opinion at least revert to the next best alternative i.e. The Twin Snakes one

(The Bread 08:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

I didn't even upload that image, J2x4 did. (And popular opinion WTF? So far I see you and SL, while J2x4, myself, MentosC, and MichaelBillington have all recommended we not use the MGS4 design. This isn't a vote,but you don't even have the votes on your side. :P) I'll roll back to the TTS one we had before, but he's not going to be happy about it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, that anon guy who disappeared wanted the MGS4 image but, was badgered into changing his mind plus me and Snake Liquid and Village Baka (see above), that's four on 4

Note: Sorry about interupting you help me on the Wikiproject page I was going there myself to make the opposite plea and saw you were already there (nothing personal)

(The Bread 08:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

An outside opinion, as requested: Since the Metal Gear series has generally portrayed the protagonist as a younger man than he does in the upcoming PS3 game, it only makes sense to identify him in the infobox in the same way as the majority of the series. Remember that Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots won't even be released until next year; it doesn't make sense to me, that the image should be of an unreleased revision to the character's appearance, as opposed to an established, widely recognised and confirmed alternative.

As a compromise, I'd strongly suggest that the updated image remain in the text of the article, as is currently the case, for the reasons I've already outlined. RandyWang (^raves/_{review me!}) 08:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

My Comprimise:I'm still for the MGS4 image now but once the game has been released and an actual confirmed Old Snake picture is recieved, why not use it then.

Resons for wanting it now: I want it now because Old Snake is Solid Snake, he's not a young Snake anymore, you can document characters changing appearence in the article, it's also consitant with the other articles (Bar Raiden, which is more or less the same case as this one)

Alright, look. If we have the TTS render as the main image, then either: 1.) Remove the Shinkawa art of the MGS1 outfit and replace it with the MGS2 one (since it makes no sense to have the same look shown twice), or 2.) Add in either the Shinkawa art of the MGS2 outfit, OR the SSBB render of the MGS2 outfit, as well. This way ALL three of his major looks are covered. Got it?--Snake Liquid 08:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The Shinkawa art is the design that all of the other variants are based on, and it's used to begin the section about Shinkawa's introduction to the series. How can we not have it? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Because for one, the article's about Solid Snake, not Shinkawa, and for two, so there's a consistent pattern where all three of his looks are rendered (and cause it's stupid to have the same look repeated twice.) TTS/MGS1, SSBB/MGS2, and MGS4. That, or you ADD the Shinkawa art of the MGS2 image to go along with the MGS1 art. Cool?--Snake Liquid 08:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

...Shinkawa designed Solid Snake. This article isn't comprehensive without a Shinkawa painting of the design that would later be used and modified for upwards of a dozen games now. We don't need a separate image for a game in which Snake is only a supporting character, just like we don't need separate images for Snake's Revenge, MG2:SS, and both Acid games. We need to keep fair-use images to a minimum, and the MGS2 version is just a variation on the MGS design. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

SL's got it man, you don't seem to be getting it though, the article's about Solid Snake, not Solid Snake's picture

(The Bread)

This article is about the creation and use of Solid Snake. I'd say that a painting of the definitive Solid Snake by the artist who created the modern Solid Snake is vital. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Bread. Man in Black, he's right, you're not getting it. The article is about Solid Snake. Most people know him from the Metal Gear Solid series. Therefore, the article should without question contain his appearance from MGS1, MGS2 (the very design YOU championed before I brought in the TTS render), and his MGS4 render. The Shinkawa drawing isn't necessary, and it's absence doesn't make the article any less comprehensive. And stop saying they're all variations of the the MGS1 outfit-- they're not.--Snake Liquid 08:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You want to remove art by the artist who created Snake in favor of a picture of a design that only appears as a supporting character in one game? No, we're not doing that. The article specifically makes reference to Shinkawa's style, and we can afford to omit duplicate or substantially-similar images. Right now, we've got a action-movie house-art copy from MG/SR/MG2SS, a render from the MGS block, a Shinkawa painting, a MGS4 render, and a MGA promo pic. We've got all the major variations of Snake covered right now. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Except a screenshot of the 8-bit games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Series in which the protagonist remains visually unchanged, such as Link (The Legend of Zelda series), are of course justified in using the most recent imagery of that character available to them: they still identify the same character, regardless of the particulars of that character's appearance. However, in cases where the character changes substantially between instalments, it makes no sense to identify the character from an image that appears in just one game of the series - as opposed to the entire rest of that series. The image must reflect the character's most recogniseable appearance, since it's specifically used for identification. I've no problem with the image changing post-release, but only if the new game is popular enough to displace the original image substantially. This has not happened yet, and will not happen until 2007, if at all. RandyWang (^raves/_{review me!}) 08:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

...Maybe I'm blind, but I'm not seeing a badge pinned to you or Man in Black anywhere. Says who?--Snake Liquid 09:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If all you have is an appeal to authority, you should just leave this page alone now. No Wikipedian holds higher authority than any other, but everyone has an opinion. If you'd like to express that opinion, rather than making personal attacks and disruptive comments, then by all means do. Otherwise, I'd highly recommend that you avoid escalating this already ridiculous situation further. RandyWang (^raves/_{review me!}) 09:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not the case at all. You may notice on this page and other Metal Gear Solid-related articles that I'm not the only one who's complained about the dominance/monopoly that A Man in Black has exercized over said articles. That's an opinion shared and expressed by others along with myself, and it seems as though your little quip right there about no one member having authority over another is contradicted by A Man in Black. Was that considered at all, or are you just going to paint me here as the bad guy because I wouldn't sit down and allow one person to tell others how it was going to be? How about considering what I've been saying about the article this whole time, in an effort to get back on track?--Snake Liquid 09:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I will freely take all the heat you want for removing unsourced criticism and speculation, and merging unexpandable stubs. Also, don't forget to critcize me for redesigning the infobox, doing hours and hours of copyediting, and helping organize the lists. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That still doesn't make it right. Thanks for your contributions, but it doesn't make you the man in charge of the Metal Gear articles, or give you the right to indefinately say what pictures will be used in the end.--Snake Liquid 18:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

First guy's this is getting a bit too heated, i just got a notice on civility (thanks RandyWang I did feel i was being a bit rude), I have an extreme solution, we block editing of the page until the matter is resolved.

(The Bread 09:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

• I agree with Man in Black's reasoning here: the most representative, widely-known version of Snake should be used in the Infobox for identification purposes - preferably a screenshot or render, as the character artwork is a bit too stylized. Of course, both the Shinkawa painting and one Old Snake picture belong in the article - however, I think that the MGS1 or MGS 2 design should be at the top. A character render or screenshot from Twin Snakes, SSB Brawl, or MGS 2 would be most appropriate. --SevereTireDamage 09:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I'm actually surprised, I like the way it looks now. Someone add in the TTS render to go along with the art so that there's a render of all three of his appearances so that it's consistent with the other two renders, eh? --Snake Liquid 16:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

We should keep it like this. I wanted the TTS render, only because we didn't have an available MGS2 render, but this one works well. Now we have middle-aged snake in the info-box, and old snake in the article. The render may not be perfect-quality, but it works. -MentosC 17:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the TTS render should still be in the article. I also think the profiles of Meryl, Ocelot, Campbell, Otacon, and Naomi Hunter should all have their images replaced with those not from MGS4. Consistency people. If they're gonna have the MGS4 image up, this should follow suit. If not, neither should they. If the MGS4 image is in the info box, the TTS and the current MGS2 renders should be within the profile itself. --Snake Liquid 17:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

We probably don't have to do it with Naomi Hunter, because she looks pretty much the same as she did in MGS1, but with a different outfit. Otacon also didn't change much, except he looks a bit older. I think it depends on whether the image represents their basic appearance throughout the series. -MentosC 18:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The one we've got now's awesome, I give up with the whole Old Snake thing, clearly i'm not going to win(The Bread 22:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

You know, if you keep that up, the world's gonna win.--Snake Liquid 02:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This is my say: I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, I'm just going to give my opinion on what would be best for the images.

First of all, this is an encyclopedia. It seems that a lot of people (I won't get specific) have forgotten that what we are supposed to be doing here is contributing to the improvement and completion of articles here on Wikipedia. Said lot of people are trying to get their personal favorite image selected, not what image would be the most helpful. That's my ultimate goal right here - make this whole thing as useful and helpful as possible. Now, here's what I have to say about the images in the articles. It would be most helpful if each section (MGS2, MGA, Ghost Babel, etc.) had an image or render of the Snake from that game. It's much better if the reader is able to see how Snake has changed in appearance over the course of time. I've talked to some friends, and they have all agreed that placing the pictures in this manner would be the most helpful.

As for the infobox picture... Here's what I think. The MGS4 image is in fact the latest image, but it is so unrepresentative of Snake's appearance in the vast majority of the series that it wouldn't be a good choice. SSBB... In my opinion, that's just silly. To use a picture of Snake from a Nintendo game that has nothing top do with Snake and his story and character, and that isn't 100% accurate isn't exactly the best way to do it. There really isn't a MGS1 picture good enough to be the main image. No detailed in-game render exists (for obvious reasons) and the only other images are sketchy artwork, so I'd say no on that. MGS2 would be a good choice, seeing as plenty of detailed, represetative images are available, and it clearly shows what Snake looks like for most of the series. Another good choice would be a render from The Twin Snakes. The game might not be first-party, but it clearly shows Snake during the story of the original game that most people are farmiliar with. Personally, I'd prefer a SoL image, but whatever everyone thinks best for the reader should go in. Thoughts? Village Baka 06:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Rewrites

I split this for the sake of sane editing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

See all the pictures here, that actually show up? Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solid_Snake&diff=63331189&oldid=62925645

At least one picture from Metal Gear 1, the before/after headshot of Metal Gear 2, the Pliskin picture, the current MGS2 render, the current MGS4 render, the MGA1 and MGA2 pictures, should ALL be in the article. To go along with the MG2 before/after shots, get a picture of Snake from Metal Gear 1 from the radio screen (it looks mainly brown). The current MG1 artwork of him with the blue shirt looks nothing like him, just some guy with a cigarette. Toss the civilian clothes and saluting screenshot. As for a MGS1 picture, obviously its shinkawa art, TTS render, or both. Which one goes into the infobox (and thus places the MGS2 render into the article), I really don't care, as long as there's nothing indicating Shinkawa set the mold for his appearance and that the rest are variations of it. The TTS render in the infobox would be consistent with the majority of Metal Gear character profiles that have renders of their actual appearance in their infoboxes (save for most of the MGS2 characters, along with Liquid Snake and Big Boss.) Why the pictures were removed (along with all that information), is beyond me. The article looked best and had the most detail on the character. Why all that info was removed, I don't believe there's a good reason.--Snake Liquid 05:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It was changed because that article was a fan page. It didn't cite sources and it didn't say a thing about the real world; instead, it was a biography of a person that doesn't exist. It had lavishly overdetailed plot summary and a pile of unnecessary fair-use images.

It flunked WP:WAF and WP:FUC and WP:NOR and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article for Big Boss has a biography on him, and he's a character of fiction as well. What's the difference? And at that, if all that information and pictures were to be reinserted, and this time sourced, what then?--Snake Liquid 06:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The Big Boss article is also a disgrace. It just hasn't yet been rewritten. If the "information" (actually hideously overly-detailed plot summary) were reinserted, it would be removed again, per WP:WAF and Wikipedia:Summary style. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I've actually been considering cleaning up the Gray Fox article for a while, it is in more or less the same state as the Big Boss one and will be a hell of alot easier to do than this one (Because he's dead and there is no new info to add).

The Big Boss one will end up being longer than the Snake one (if it's re-written) as big Boss is a more developed character and that partially explains it's current huge length.

As for the pictures of Snake that weren't fair use, I was just wondering if the revised Shinkawa MG2 version could be used (If it was fair use and stuff like that), and finally, is there an equivalent pic to the current picture of Snake in the infobox, to use for Raiden (A Raiden render)?

(The Bread 08:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)))

Fair-use = copyrighted. Fair use, despite what the name might imply, is bad. We want to minimize our use of fair-use images.

Grey Fox and Big Boss, honestly, could be done in three or four paragraphs. Solid Snake has all the plot and all the different character designs, whereas those two have much narrower roles, especially if you omit most of the minute in-universe detail better suited to fanpages.

Raiden could be folded entirely into Metal Gear Solid 2. His story, both in the game and in the real world, is the story of MGS2. His design process is part of the design process of MGS2, criticism of him is criticism of MGS2, and all of the in-universe info on him is from MGS2. I haven't done this because the "Raiden deserves his own article" complaining would be deafening, and he might turn out to be a major character in MGS4 so we'd be back to splitting him out in six months.

There's just so much cleanup to do. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you're gonna need this for each article

For Fox you need

• Intro thing that all the characters have
• One paragraph on MG
• One on MG2
• One on MGS
• One on the constant reappearance of Ninjas

For Big Boss you need

• Intro
• One on MGS3
• One on MPO
• One on MG
• One on MG2
• One on his "legacy" in subsequent games

So that's what i think each of them needs you can dump the whole Name Debate and Early Career stuff and wind them into each paragraph. As for Raiden, I don't want to get started with the arguments over him warranting an article

(The Bread 09:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC))

Well, the intro would just be folded in with what I was thinking, because these would ideally be list entries, and one can hardly write a para about MPO at this point, but we agree on the main points.

Well. The Big Boss article really should read MG/SR/MG2, maybe a para on his "legacy" but maybe not, then MGS3/MPO. Real-world order should trump fictional order, since it makes it easier to tell what's a retcon and what isn't. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

MPO is just like MGS4 anyway, but the thing about his "legacy" or whatever would help an unacustomed reader realise his importance to the series even after death. The same goes for Gray Fox and the ninja suits.

The Big Boss article however may need to put on hold until after MPO comes out as no-one completely knows why he changes. And that would warrant putting them in coronlogical order and make it easier to see how the character develops

(The Bread 09:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC))

The character developed from the defected leader of FOXHOUND into whatever he is in MGS3, though, not the other way around. Just like Darth Vader developed from a pure villain into a conflicted antihero instead of the other way around.

Huh. I wonder if anyone has ever noted that the mentor's betrayal is a recurring theme in the MG series. Big Boss, then Gray Fox, then Master Miller betray Snake, then the Colonel turns out to be manipulating Raiden, then The Boss betrays Big Boss. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point all the current opinion of Big Boss is based on MGS3, as for the betrayal, it's definitely a recurring theme, be it intended (which it probably is) or accidental, i'm gonna see if it's noted on the MG series page

(The Bread 09:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC))

It's funny that you guys were mentioning this, because I was in the process of rewriting the Revolver Ocelot article to fit in with the real-world point of view better. I will upload my version of the article whenever it's ready. Jonny2x4 16:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I've just done Gray Fox now, check it out, i need another opinion

(The Bread 04:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC))

Shinkawa art caption change.

I removed the part about that image being the base for all later Snake designs, and those later designs being variants of it, for the following reasons.

1.) There's no proven stated fact of this by Kojima or Shinkawa. The designs for Snake in MGS1, MGS2 and MGS4 are all uniquely designed by Shinkawa, and the three designs are all different from one another. A variant would be something slightly tweaked or recolored, not three different designs that are noticably different, despite their similarity

2) Since it's the same design used in Ghost Babel and AC!D 1, stating this kills two birds with one stone: It acknowledges those games and how he appeared in them, and takes care of having to show how he looked in AC!D 1 along with his AC!D 2 image.--Snake Liquid 23:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you arguing that the post-MGS designs aren't derivative of the MGS design? The article doesn't assert that the other variations are minor variations, simply that the MGS Snake formed the basis for the later designs. The MG2 remake had a younger-looking version, MGS2 had an older-looking version, and MGS4 has a much older-looking version. Can you point out where it says that these are minor variations? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you didn't start a revert war over this, Black. Are you arguing that the edit I made is untrue? It's there to inform the reader. I'm going to change my edits back unless you can prove your point with factual evidence other than visual observation, because otherwise, no, they're not variations. My edits helped with stating fact, and I said how they did that above, and what you reverted back to was merely an opinion, and on top of that, something that doesn't need to be pointed out because it's obvious (character design consistency is something of common sense.) Besides, I was talking about the outfit. Don't change it back unless you plan to compromise and meet half way, because apparently that's how things are supposed to be done around here, through discussion, not my way/your way.--Snake Liquid 04:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't get to revert, then take the moral high ground about reverting. You were bold, I reverted to discuss the change, now we figure out what works better in the article.

I don't understand what kind of evidence you're looking for, because I don't understand where you disagree. Do you feel that these later designs aren't based on the MGS design? Do you want a source that backs up the claim that the later designs are based on the MGS design? Are you asserting that it's not a reasonable, uncontroversial observation, per WP:NOR?

Basically, are you saying...

1. No, I don't think the later designs are based on the MGS design.
2. I think "Shinkawa's design would become the definitive design that would form the basis for all later designs" is misleading, since it implies that the later designs are identical or near-identical.
3. I need a source stating that the later designs are based on this first one (in which case I just kick it to WP:CVG, since I think it's a reasonable bland observation, per WP:NOR, and if you don't then a ton of this article has a big problem)
4. Something else.

At the moment, I cannot offer any compromise because I'm not sure where you stand. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"You don't get to revert, then take the moral high ground about reverting." O RLY?

Okay, look at it this way. I think "Shinkawa's design would become the definitive design that would form the basis for all later designs" is misleading, since it only applies to his face, not the sneaking suits he wears, so I think it should be specified if you want to say that. Second, mentioning in the picture that that same appearance is used in AC!D 1 and Ghost Babel adds more information to the article, in case someone reads it, sees the MGA2 picture, and wonders, "Well what did he look like in MGA1?" since the picture isn't there and hasn't been reinserted.

How about splicing the two into one caption, like "Shinkawa's initial design was the basis for Snake's later appearances in the series, which would be loosely based upon it. This design was also used for Snake's appearances in Metal Gear Acid 1 and Ghost Babel." I think that's fair.--Snake Liquid 05:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

edit conflict

“ Solid Snake in the original Metal Gear Solid, drawn by Yoji Shinkawa. Shinkawa's design would mark the beginning of consistency and continuity in Snake's design, and variations of differing degree would appear in all later games. ”

I'm not sure if this is at all closer to what you'd like, SL, but I rewrote it since it needed refining anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think "Shinkawa's design would become the definitive design that would form the basis for all later designs" is misleading, since it only applies to his face, not the sneaking suits he wears, so I think it should be specified if you want to say that.

Oh, I get it. What I'm trying to say is that the MGS design is the first time they said, "This is what Snake looks like and will look like forevermore. Anytime we have a game set before this, he looks like this but younger. Anytime we have a game set after this, he looks like this but older." Rather than worrying about "This sneaking suit is used in game foo and game bar," I want to say that MGS Snake is a landmark redesign, where they stop copying a random action hero and start making Snake into...well, Snake.

I strongly oppose the Acid bit, since the Acid 1 designs are actually someone else aping Shinkawa. Mentioning GB isn't inappropriate, but I think it's more important emphasize that the Shinkawa design is where they first have continuity in the character design.

As for "What does he look like in MGA1?" the user could always go to the linked MGA article (¬_¬), but I did add a bit about how he appears in MGA and MGA2 to the Acid section. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"I strongly oppose the Acid bit, since the Acid 1 designs are actually someone else aping Shinkawa. Mentioning GB isn't inappropriate, but I think it's more important emphasize that the Shinkawa design is where they first have continuity in the character design."

For the Acid 1 bit, it's the same suit, that's what I was pointing at, not the art style. Same for GB. In fact, while the caption is fine the way it is now, you could have both statements. Like, the current one, but followed up with that Snake wore the same look in both games, for extra information covering images that once were present but are now no longer there. --Snake Liquid 06:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The first reappearance of the Metal Gear Solid version of Solid Snake would be in the 2000 Game Boy Color game Metal Gear Solid (originally released in Japan as Metal Gear: Ghost Babel).

In Metal Gear Acid, the in-game models don't reflect Kutome's comic book-inspired style, instead closely resembling the designs used in the Metal Gear Solid series.

I think we've got the info that was in your caption covered. I don't think it's not really important to describe the detailed evolution of the sneaking suit; in each game, it's a dark bodysuit with bandoliers and pockets and such. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox caption change

I don't get it, are you talking about his face? Because it's otherwise misleading and makes it sound like he looked like that in Metal Gear Solid 1, and he didn't. Maybe it needs to be reworded.--Snake Liquid 17:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Comparison image

The comparison image was added after a comment on the peer review, to justify the comparison of Michael Biehn to Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the comparsion image to be rather distracting to the overall flow of the article. Sure, it justifies the text on the article, but as far as I know, this is the only article to do so. You don't see a comparison pic with Samuel L. Jackson in the Ultimate Nick Fury page. Nor Hakaider with Darth Vader. Why should it be different with Solid Snake? Jonny2x4 18:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Because, unlike Ultimate Nick Fury and Hakaider, it was questioned that the comparison was something a reasonable adult could make. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, looking at all the references, Kojima has borrowed from a number of Hollywood action movies as a basis for his characters in the Metal Gear series. The comparsion is notable in light of that. --Mitaphane _talk 08:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand all that, but is it really neccesary to include the comparison pic. Isn't it enough just mentioning it in the text? Jonny2x4 20:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Without the image, this is just going to recur, since I was incapable of finding a citable source on the subject. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really like it either, but I'll take AMiB's side on this one; I'd certainly prefer a cite in lieu of the image as well, but it's the only way to really prove the staggeringly obvious here. (P.S., I knew nothing about Darth Vader and Haikaider. It's also not mentioned at all on Vader's page. D'oh!) --SevereTireDamage 02:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If a cite can be found, I'd be good with ditching the comparison and replacing it with the game cover. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

A Series of Edits

Seeing this on the PR page I made a number of edits to this article.

• I edited minor typos (mispelling, etc.)
• Added a link to pastiche as Snake is a good example of this.
• Reworded a few sentences for grammar, and easier reading (The paragraph involving the success of the NES port is a good example of this).
• I removed two parenthetical bits regarding information from the game Metal Gear as the article should focus on the character Solid Snake and his story.
• Added the reference to OILIX
• Added reference to Meryl being Col. Campbell's Niece
• Added that Snake meets with a member of the resistance(not the vague "local resistance") in MG
• Removed reference to 1990 in MG2:SS paragraph. The MG2:SS article already contains that info.
• Removed "Despite the betrayal of Master Miller (revealed to be a disguised Liquid Snake), part of his radio support team," "Despite" would imply that this "betrayl" impeded Snake's elimination of the FOXHOUND members; it didn't. Also, Master Miller didn't betray anyone; he was killed and Liquid impersonated him.

--Mitaphane _talk 15:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Cardboard box

Hey, does someone have a good image of Solid Snake hiding in a cardboard box? I just realized we don't have an image of an iconic, albeit silly, recurring joke relating to Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Could someone perhaps get a screen-grab from the SSBB trailer? --SaturnYoshi 20:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's one

I'll let you handle the FU shit and it's from here http://x4b.xanga.com/accb26f215d3724958767/NonFreeImageRemoved.svg —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bread (talk • contribs)

Wow. That's the EXACT shot I was personally trying to find, but I couldn't find it. --SevereTireDamage 05:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this a screenshot from the SSBB trailer? The SSBB trailer was released by Nintendo at E3, right? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm pretty sure that's from MGS 2, I remember the screenshot from long ago. Unfortunately, I don't know the source, though I do know there's definitely a higher-resolution version of that picture available somewhere, but I couldn't find it. --SevereTireDamage 19:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's one that I found of the same screen shot. http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/preview/mgs2add/screen13.jpg --SaturnYoshi 21:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would you want the SSBB one when we've got this brilliant one here? It's from an actual MG game and it's clearly Snake hiding under a box

(The Bread 04:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC))

SSBB was just a suggestion. This screen shot definately serves its purpose. --SaturnYoshi 06:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Sweet. I just dunno where it's gonna fit in in the article

(The Bread 06:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC))

So where did this screenshot come from? I'd like to use it, but no source is no source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Aren't the links the source?? --SaturnYoshi 14:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

When you upload an image, you need to say three things: where the image was originally published, who owns the image, and where you got the image. We've got who owns the image (Konami) and where you got the image, but where did it originally come from? It's clearly not a normal screenshot of gameplay, because there are no on-screen indicators and the camera angle is weird. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh. My only guess is that it came from a trailer. Now I wonder where said trailer can be found... --SaturnYoshi 21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It's from a preview version of the game. Here's the preview link at Game Critics (the site in the URL).[2] See the following pages for other amusing box shots, but the one mentioned is still the best one. This has to be from a unfinished early version since the article was written in December 2000. --SevereTireDamage 23:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Mmmkay, it's a preview image released by Konami. That's good enough.

So, where should this go in the article? The Metal Gear Solid section already has two sizable images, unfortunately. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm gonna try fit it in, just wait

(The Bread 02:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC))

Done it take a look

(The Bread 02:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC))

Regarding good article nomination

I have put the article on hold until a few issues have been sorted out. Some points:

• I found at least five uses of contractions outside of quotations (in violation of the Manual of Style).
• Many citations do not comply with Wikipedia:Footnotes in that they are not placed after punctuation (and in another small nitpick, many are placed after spaces, in violation of another guideline which I cannot seem to find right now).
• The use of the image in "Cameo appearances" seems to border on original research. I recommend finding a citation of a reliable source commenting on the card's referencing of the series. If one cannot be located, then the image should probably be removed. JimmyBlackwing 16:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Image removed (it wasn't strictly necessary anyway), and the punctuation/referencing issues resolved. How does it look? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. I still have a minor complaint with the mentioning of the Yu-Gi-Oh card without citing a reliable source, and the inconsistency in the dates listed in the references (particularly when they are redlinks because of it) is rather grating. If you can take care of those things, I would say this is good article quality. JimmyBlackwing 16:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Eh, probably better off just ditching the Yu Gi Oh thing. It only ever stayed because the reference was considered by everyone who looked at it as a bland observation obvious to a reasonable viewer, but if someone reasonable is questioning it, it's probably better to ditch it. How does it look now? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks good enough for me to pass it. One final thing you might want to look into are spoiler tags for the sections with possible spoilers in them. But that's minor. I'll go deal with the things needed to pass this article. Good work. JimmyBlackwing 16:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding spoiler tags, I tried doing that, and discovered that the article needed no less than a half-dozen {{spoiler}}/{{endspoiler}} sets (including one in the intro), since no effort was (or, IMO, should) made to separate the brief plot summaries from the rest of the article. We're probably best off without constant spoiler tags breaking the flow of the article.

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss the minor issues with this article so they could be cleaned up. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Another picture poll

I still want to use this image as the infobox image over the current one. I've only uploaded the current image just to sastify the need of a render, but I think the artwork is much clearer looking than the current scan and I don't think it's too stylized compared to any in-game render (after all, these characters started out a sketches). I just don't see the need of using in-game renders at all. Jonny2x4 04:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

---

I want Old Snake, but that's not gonna happen either, certain users will forbid it, but I prefer Artwork to Renders, especially the one we've got now, it's kinda dull and hazy

(The Bread 06:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC))

---

I agree! Which is why I made this poll in the first place. If no one objects by tonight, I'm gonna replace the image. No ifs and buts about it. Jonny2x4 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Considering Cloud Strife and Aerith Gainsborough are both considered good articles and they both used artworks for infoboxes, I don't see the harm of using an artwork for Solid Snake instead of a render. Jonny2x4 16:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Exactly

(The Bread 07:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC))

---

Now we don't have a gameplay shot, nor any good place to put one. Maybe someone could scrounge a gameplay shot from MGS, then stick the MGS Shinkawa pic in the ibx? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Snake is Japanese!

And I have proof! During the 2nd battle with Vulcan Raven in MGS1, if you call Master Miller twice, he divulges (in a bit of foreshadowing) that Snake is part Japanese, and Snake confirms it. I'm saying we add a small note in his nationality that he is American and Japanese in origin. But then again, part of being American is having ancestors from varying ethnic backgrounds so...maybe it doesn't really warrant a change. Plus, he's a clone...

According to the Metal Gear 2 manual, Solid Snake is of Japanese-British descent. Keep in mind that ethnicity and nationality are two completely different things. Solid Snake's nationality is still American. Jonny2x4 16:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

What he said. Ethnicity is what countries you come from, such as Irish-American or English-African. We already knew Snake had partly Japanese heritage (or DNA, rather) because he is a clone of Big Boss. Nationality is simply affiliation. I may be of German, Mexican, and Irish descent (plus some English and French as well), but that doesn't mean I have anything to do with those countries. My nationality is American - I live in the US.

Damn good job of cleaning up the article, by the way. Village Baka 16:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm...good point. Alright, then forget it. And if you're complimenting me for cleaning up that MGS 1 article, then thanks.Stephen Mathis 11:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

David

I just watched the Making of MGS2 DVD and Kojima says that Dave and Hal are references to 2001:A Space Odyssey, why is this constantly removed

(The Bread 01:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

Because it's fairly inane trivia. Has this fact ever been mentioned outside of a work directed by Kojima? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

How's it inane, Snake is based on numerous other characters and those are all stated in the article, the Michael Beihn thing, Mel Gibson this:

"His physique was based on Jean Claude Van Damme, while his facial appearance was originally based on Christopher Walken"

The DVD wasn't directed by Kojima, and why would it be mentioned outside of that, he'd be one of the few people who know that.

(The Bread 01:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here, i'm gonna put it in the article (not under a trivia header) somewhere where it fits

(The Bread 02:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

The development of the character is the main subject of the article. Trivial in-universe facts that aren't mentioned but once in one single game aren't. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not an in universe fact, an in universe fact would be "Snake was named after Major Zero" this is an out of universe fact in case you didn't notice 2001:A Space Odyssey is a real film (It's quite good actually), and it's not trivia, I could quite easily remove the whole Jean Claude Van Damme thing and say it's trivia

(The Bread 02:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

The van Damme thing has been mentioned multiple times, and by multiple people (both Shinkawa and Kojima). The "David" thing is a minor, in-universe fact (Snake's real name is David) with an even less important out-of-universe fact (David came from 2001) supported by a interview comment made once about where the name came from.

If there's some larger point you're making about his name being David (e.g. Later appearances of Solid Snake had more of a science fiction and less of an action movie influence, as shown by X, Y, and Z) go for it, but right now it's just a shoehorned-in trivial factoid that the article doesn't need and that readers will likely not understand or be interested in.

That said, where you stuck it and the wording didn't work too well. There's no mention of what game first mentioned this name (MGS, isn't it?), or when it is mentioned (I can't even remember), or what importance it has to the game or later games (none whatsoever). If you can find a logical place to put it that covers all of those bases and somehow explains why the reader should care when it's not a significant fact in the games, go right ahead, but right now it just doesn't work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever

(The Bread 02:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC))

EDIT: Snake does NOT look like Ted Turner in MGS4

did anyone notice that snake looks like ted turner in the Metal Gear Solid 4 Trailer? 216.26.131.217 13:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi -- just a friendly request to please keep in mind that talk pages are intended for discussion regarding the article and/or the topic as it relates to the article, not necessarily for random chit-chat. Sometimes posting things like this gets people agitated as it doesn't contribute to Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. If you have questions feel free to ask me on my talk page. Thanks :) --Bookgrrl 11:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It has been confirmed a long time ago by 1UP that he is based on Lee Van Cleff. http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3146394

I get more agitated by anal admins to be honest. - 85.210.152.124 17:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Snake's aged appearance in Metal Gear Solid 4

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's been confirmed that Snake's appearance in 4 is because of his clone cell degeneration. Metal Gear Solid 3, I think, left the opening that perhaps the Snake in 4 is the one way back from 3, meaning he really would be an old(er) man.

That's Big Boss in MGS3. He's dead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone wanting to discuss this don't instead read this

†he Bread 02:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Quick note

The following paragraph-

While Solid Snake does not appear in Metal Gear Solid 3

Snake Eater (save for a guest appearance in the Snake vs. Monkey minigame), Naked Snake, a new character who shares Solid Snake's appearance, voice actor (in both Japanese and English versions of the game), trademark bandana, and expertise in urban warfare and espionage, serves as the protagonist in his place.;;

It mentions Naked Snake as a "new" character. I'm going to change it to "new playable" character, as the character himself has been around as long as Solid Snake. Indeed these two are the first a player ever meets in the first Metal Gear. Adding the word playable doesn't blow the spoiler, if that's a concern. Onikage725 11:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Also Known As

This may be picky but isn't Solid Snake also known as simply "Snake." He is almost always referred to by this name throughout the Metal Gear Solid games. I think "Snake" should be added to the "Also Known As" section of the infobox. There should be some type of acknowledgement of Solid Snake referred to as Snake for short. (FF7SquallStrife7 21:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC))