Talk:Skiing/Archive 1

Types of skiing

Yikes. I hope I didn't foul up the project. I tried to make the explaintion of types of skiing have less of an Alpine bias. It had only Alpine skiing types explained, leaving out so many other types. I hope my changes aren't redundant with the later seperate listings of ski types. I tried to respect what was already there, and to balance out the view of Telemark and off-piste skiing as unusually dangerous. If my additions are redundant, it might be wise to combine the listing of skiing types with the explaination of skiing types.Lizzienew 08:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)lizzienew

I wouldn't call telemark dangerous - depends on where you go. Good job overall I think (altough I didn't really read it all trough :) ). This bothers me a bit: Previous to the late 1800s, skiing was considered a type of snowshoeing. Considered by who, and where? To me snow shoeing and skiing are clearly separate, and I'm unaware of historical link between the two.

ps. The standard practise is that new topics go to bottom :). The Merciful 12:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to do the documentation on this. Snowshoe Thompson, an important figure in 1800s US skiing is always called "Snowshoe Thompson" not "Ski Thompson." Also Raymond Flowers in "The History of Skiing and Other Winter Sports" Quotes at article from the 1861 August 6 issue of the Sydney Morning Herald taht contains this in a description of skiing Austria, "Scores of young people are frequently engaged in climbing the lofty summits with snow-shoes (sic) and then sliding down with a velocity that would do credit to some of our railway trains." Possibly they went up on snow-shoes and down on skis but Flowers added the "(sic)" also as a kid I used to read turn of the century St. Nicholas Magazines which captioned pictures of skiing as either skating or snowshoeing. That would be the hardest incidence to document. Here I've got the solution: the word "ski" entered the English langauge in 1890 according to Webster's Dictionary. The Norwegian dictionary doesn't have a word for snowshoe. ??? I don't know if it was left out or if the word for ski and snowshoe are the same in Norwegian. No word for snowshoe in Swedish dictionary either. And not in Finnish. I'll make an edit to clarify the language issue.--Lizzienew 15:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like folks in Astralia and North America were simply bit clueless about these things. Understandable for people not familiar with skiing. The reason why old Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish dictionaries don't have words for snowshoeing (if that's the case), is because snowshoeing was a North American indian thing, and unknown for people in Scandinavia at the time. As for Snowshoe Thompson, the Wikipedia article indicates it was just a mixup of the people of the time: he did not make use of the snowshoes that are native to North America. The Merciful 15:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

From what I understand, Merciful is saying that previous to 1890, North America had no snowshoes that slid, and Europe had no skis that didn't slide. Both were clueless and lacked a word for the other device. When these two devices were introduced, Scandanavia thought snowshoes were another type of skis while North America thought skis were another type of snowshoe. Neither distinguised devices that do slide on snow from devices that do not. Do you have any info on lack of sliding snowshoes in North America or lack of non-sliding skis in Europe? It would flesh out that part about how skiing and snowshoeing developmed differently based on climate. I added a bit about the mythical origin of skiing. If anyone can read Norse, it might be worthwhile to check into the original wording in the Prose Edda to see if skiing is called snowshoeing or vice versa.--Lizzienew 17:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that unless there is authorative source (like archeological or historical studies etc.) stating othervise, the snow shoes and skiing should not be linked. The modes of movement between the two are so different (walking with showshoes, sliding on snow with skiis), that I find such a link highly speculative to say the least. I see you separated snowboarding from skiing (I agree), and snowborading is much closer to skiing than snowshoeing. The Merciful 08:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Ski vs Ski school

Separate articles for "ski" and "ski school" have been reinstated. I guess there may be some merit in merging all ski equipment into one page, but doesn't seem sensible to only merge skis while leaving out poles, bindings, boots, skins, harschiessen, clothing, etc., etc.

Also decided to remerge List of skiing-related topics; doesn't seem to really need a separate page for a list, especially as it seems there's a lot of links to this page from other skiing topics already... 80.46.151.29 Nov 29 2003

Skiing & Society

Anyone want to elaborate on how this piece is confusing and or unclear as I would be happy to edit it. WinterOfDiscontent 2006 Oct 2 (UTC)

It had information about slang terms that did not belong under Skiing and Society. There were also a few technical errors, I have corrected both.

as far as slang goes, we've got a category going on WikiWinter. If there's slang that people feel is actaully relevant to the topic, feel free to link to the page on WikiWinter Category:Lingo. Searles2sels (PJ) 21:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that it just assigns stereotypes.

Wordiness

"If this is not the case, one's trajectory is likely to become uncontrollable and one's speed excessive, attenuated only by stationary objects such as trees." Gee, thanks Dr. Obtusification! Sadly, I am not here to edit, just to point out. Jevin 01:53, 2004 Sep 22 (UTC)

Johannes and Hannes Schneider?

Excuse me, please, but I thought that the Johannes Schneider who invented the Stem Christie was the Hannes Schneider who created the Arlburg Technique and taught at Cranmore in New Hampshire. 4.233.203.120 17:55, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

SKI OR DIE

picture

can someone put up a decent skiing picture, the individual pictured isent even skiing correctly around the race gate. Is there any good reason that this picture should stay?

The article is about skiing in general, not about alpine skiing competitions. If someone gets the impression that the individual on the picture is racing, then it is not the picture that is the problem. Let the picture stay - nothing wrong with it. If someone has a better picture, then lets discuss. -- Egil 6 July 2005 09:25 (UTC)

I get the impression that the individual on the picture is racing not only from the picture, but from the picture's caption, which reads:

"Nearly 200 skiers and snowboarders participated in numerous slalom racing events; Commander's Cup, Broken Tip and Individual competitions. This year, Peterson AFB won the Commander's Cup for the second consecutive year and F.E. Warren won the Broken Tip category."

The individual skiing in the picture seems to be affiliated with racing and competitive skiing (he is wearing high performance boots and has his poles tucked under his arms, for example). However, he is definitely not skiing around the gate correctly. According to GS article, "gates are spaced in pairs with each pair consisting of two poles connected by a single fabric panel" and, "a GS racer will make much less contact with gates, and will do so using his inner shoulder rather than his outer pole." The Air Force skiier in this picture is on a GS course, as indicated by the two-pole fabric gate, he is in a racing position ("tucked"), and he is several feet from the gate, failing to make any contact. He is also wearing a thick ski jacket and ski pants rather than the aerodynamic attire worn by racers, he is racing without a helmet (dangerous), and he has a large backpack on. So, I beg to differ. There is something wrong with this picture, and I hope that someone can provide a better one. That is, if the picture needn't depict a competitive skier demonstrating proper technique and wearing correct attire, then show a recreational skiier on a non-competitive run, without race gates. -- unsigned post by User:Maande10 2006-01-05 06:49:31

Ok I agree with your general characterization/analysis of the picture but I think you are over-reacting - there is clearly some snobery in your reply. The slopes are for everyone, just as wikipedia is. Dprocter 2006-02-02

The picture of the Air Force skier is not the best picture with which to lead the article. I agree that the slopes are there for everyone, but this guy is in what I would call a 'redneck tuck' of the type seen on hundreds of NASTAR courses across the country. It's not representative of good skiing and does not add to the article. 68.33.74.123

Actually, I take that back, the picture really does suck, and therefore screw up the article. Either way, I really wish we could get a hold of those two guys, because, whatever the outcome of the race was, I am sure it put the whole skier-snowboarder rivalry to rest once and for all. Also, the caption should indicate what was in the backpack, when their last romantic relationship ended, what their best childhood memory was, and other useless personal information to accompany the intimation that these are members of the airforce. Dprocter 2006-03-22

I've got to say that no matter who is on the slopes, the lead picture should probably depict someone at least skiing well. There's not a fumble as the first picture for football, nor an airplane crash for the picture of flying. Why the joeys for skiing? PJ 23:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ted Kennedy Jr

Ted Kennedy Jr, the son of Massachusetts senator Ted Kennedy, and nephew of John F Kennedy, does a lot of skiing, and has won some competitions as a disabled skier. He received an above-the-knee amputation due to bone cancer, at an early age. He lives in New England.--McTrixie 16:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

European piste classification

I have added the European piste classification colours. Feel free to change if anybody feels I've done anything wrong - this is my first edit.

Looks good to me - I've added subheadings. I think this article is badly in need of some internationalisation - this is not the American wiki, after all. So I'm not sure how appropriate the frequent distinctions between "East coast" and "West coast" are - perhaps they would belong on an "American skiing" page. The article should at least be inclusive of Europe (Spain, France, Germany, Austrai, Switzerland, Italy, Sweden to name a few), New Zealand, maybe Australia, South America etc.

--Stevage 23:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

ICE??!!??

Whoever wrote the paragraph on "ice" clearly never skiied in the east. 'Blue Ice' is very common throughout the season. I can't leave it like that.

Agreed. Are you going to change it? Because I will. Rare... PJ 23:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great. Just remember Wikipedia:No_original_research--E-Bod 23:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the section on ice. Have skied in the Eastern US most of my life and am a former ski patrol director there. I stand by the edit. While true ice was indeed very common several decades ago, improvements in grooming, snowmaking and trail drainage engineering have indeed made ice rare.

Error on the page in European trail classifications?

I noticed that the description for European trail markings for "Black" calls it "an easy slope", and then goes on to describe expert-level skiing conditions.

I believe this is an error, and it should read "an expert slope". However, I have never skiied in Europe, so I leave this change for someone who knows.

fixed. ∴ here…♠ 18:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Can someone please tell me what the problem was with http://www.chamonix-valley.com/skiing/ as an external link? I thought it was a very useful resource for skiers coming to Chamonix. No?

In my opinion (but it doesn't matter all that much, i'm not the one that removed it) it would be better off in the Chamonix article instead of here. No-one is going to look for chamonix-specific skiing information here. Fisheke 14:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of external links... I fell that some of these just aren't necessary and represent more of an ad than a useful link. any thoughts? Searles2sels (PJ) 03:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Would anyone be opposed if I added a link to HookedOnWinter.com? Let me know. I'll wait till Wednesday to post if I haven't heard from anyone. Searles2sels (PJ) 15:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

HookedOnWinter.com has little content and doesn't add anything new with respect to Wikipedia. The wiki portion appears to follow the same structure as wikipedia—when filled in, will it improve it? Other than promoting the website, what would justify a link? — EncMstr 16:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

When filled out, it will add way more detail in terms of skiing and snowboarding than would be acceptable on Wikipedia. Things like specific gear articles, tricks, specifics about resorts, movies, skiers, etc. Things that no one but a skier or snowboarder would care about... Searles2sels (PJ) 18:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps when it is filled out it will make a worthy addition to the article. — EncMstr 18:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks for the feedback. You know, if you're bored... :-) I could use some people with skiing interest and wiki knoweledge to work on the site. Searles2sels (PJ) 21:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So I'm personally getting tired of reverting the ski-forums link. Does anyone see it as being a good fit? If so, I'll stop this war. Searles2sels (PJ) 05:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I looked around for a few minutes. The advertising was subtle, and the content wasn't bad. In fact it had kind of a glossy brochure feel, but sometimes with depth. The "cool ski video" was okay. There was a smidge of news, though most was dated.

Is it encyclopedic? No. Does it add to to the Skiing topic? Perhaps. Is it blatant commercialism? No. I'm on the fence. It seems okay to leave it, unless it attracts spam somehow. — EncMstr 07:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The frequency that this link is added is enough to convince me that the intentions are commercial and spam, however the content offers little and the actual forum page contains maybe 40 topics. This site is young in terms of content, adds nothing contexually relevant. If a forum link is appropriate, we shoudl consider Barking Bear (Epic Ski). WinterOfDiscontent 09:44, 17 October 2006 (GMT)

I agree with that. EpicSki and Newschoolers (as much as I dislike that forum style) are way more established. Searles2sels (PJ) 17:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I find it funny that "established" is a criteria for an "external link". I guess all those other sites running google ad's are ok, even though they are commercial, and get an exemption because they are "established". That doesnt make any sense. EpicSki was also a link that was removed. Both of these sites are valid. I sense a personal grudge at this point and nothing else.

There's no personal grudge, except that you added the link a bunch even when it was clear people were taking it off. and EpicSki was removed, but is being considered again in light of your link. It's not on there now, but it's being discussed. If you read a few lines above, I'd like my site on there too, but it's not established yet. It doesn't add anything to the page, so it's not there. Does your site actually add anything to exlpaining what skiing is? No. Would EpicSki? Maybe. They have articles about how to ski, how to teach, etc. We're all good people here. Make an argument and we'll listen. But this editing war is getting on everyone's nerves.

SkiReport.com,Ski Reviews and Snow reports are NOT "encyclopedic" either but commercial. These do not explain anything about what skiing is either. Again, you have a double standard. I guess ill go remove all the other links that dont qualify as "explaining what skiing is", which is most of them.

I am requesting permission to add Spadout.com as an external link. We provide lots of unique information including the ski comparison tool and the ski resort comparison tool.

no thanks. I went ahead and removed most of the existing links as well. There are thousands of similar sites, try dmoz if you like. These links don't really add anything to the article. ∴ here…♠ 13:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well done! The spam is getting really thick lately. Wikipedia is not a link directory, nor a vehicle for advertising. A link must contain reliable, encyclopedic information that does not belong in the article itself under WP:EL, and should never, ever, be added by the site's owner (note to those above complaining about "their" sites disappearing). Enough with the spam! -- Mwanner | Talk 13:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

New "Alpine ski racer" infobox template

It seems like it's time someone created an infobox template specifically for alpine World Cup skiers, so I've created one at Template:Infobox Alpine ski racer. (They already exist for many other types of athletes, including World Cup ski jumpers.) I created a preliminary one; I'd never made one before, so please let me know if I did something wrong — although I did try to emulate other existing athlete infobox templates. (This one is basically a hybrid of the generic "Athlete" one and the "Ski jumper" one.)

If people like how this came out, it would be awesome to see this start to appear on individual skiers' pages.

{{{skiername}}}

{{{image}}}
Country	{{{country}}}
Club	{{{club}}}
Skis/boots/bindings	{{{skis}}}/{{{boots}}}/{{{bindings}}}
Main sponsor	{{{sponsor}}}
Date of birth	{{{datebirth}}}
Place of birth	{{{birthcity}}}, {{{birthcountry}}}
Date of death	{{{datedeath}}}
Place of death	{{{placedeath}}}
Height	{{{height}}}
Weight	{{{weight}}}
World Cup debut	{{{wcdebut}}}
Retired	{{{retired}}}
Website	{{{website}}}
Olympics
Teams	{{{olympicteams}}}
Medals	{{{olympicmedals}}} ({{{olympicgolds}}} gold)
World Championships
Teams	{{{worldsteams}}}
Medals	{{{worldsmedals}}} ({{{worldsgolds}}} gold)
World Cup
Seasons	{{{wcseasons}}}
Wins	{{{wcwins}}}
Podiums	{{{wcpodiums}}}
Overall titles	{{{wcoveralls}}}
Discipline titles	{{{wctitles}}}
Infobox last updated on: {{{updated}}}

Here is an example of how it would look for an individual athlete:

Daron Rahlves

File:Daron Rahlves.jpg
Country	United States
Club	Sugar Bowl Ski Team
Skis/boots/bindings	Atomic/Atomic/Atomic
Main sponsor	Red Bull
Date of birth	June 12, 1973
Place of birth	Walnut Creek, California, U.S.A.
Height	1.73 m (5'8")
Weight	81 kg (179 lbs.)
World Cup debut	March 13, 1994
Retired	March 26, 2006
Website	http://www.daronrahlves.com
Olympics
Teams	3 (1998, 2002, 2006)
Medals	0
World Championships
Teams	6 (1996, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2005)
Medals	3 (1 gold)
World Cup
Seasons	13
Wins	12
Podiums	28
Overall titles	0
Discipline titles	0
Infobox last updated on: 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Charolastra charolo 08:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Permission to add external link

Hello all,

I would like to add a link to HookedOnWinter.com. This was discussed previously, and since then there is a lot more content on the site. There is a wiki, a forum, and other resources. The site has information which would not fit on a wikipedia article (as the information might be too detailed), but is good for people reading about skiing, snowboarding, and many things under those categories. Please discuss. Thank you,

Searles2sels (PJ) 20:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd advise against. This remains essentially a personal site with an attempted community. The wiki shows 0 changes in 7 days, the forum has a total of 50 users, and every article on the front page involves Okemo mountain. Best of luck with your site, but a link here (or in Snowboarding) is not appropriate at this time. ∴ here…♠ 23:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur with User:here. Wikipedia is not a link directory or an indiscriminate collection of random information, per official policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. --Coolcaesar 04:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well that's why I asked here before adding it indiscriminately. :-) But I can take a hint. I'll check back when the site has more content/users/traffic. Thanks for the input -- Searles2sels (PJ) 14:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moving Alpine skiing content to the article about it

Since wikipedia has its own article on Alpine skiing, i moved chapter "Ski trail ratings" there. That part was exclusively about down hill skiing. "Snow and weather" seems to like it is out of place too... The Merciful 09:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Your removal of the section "Snow and weather" is very strange, since all of the listed snow conditions occur in cross-country skiing as well as alpine skiing. If you think the section is too alpine-specific, then edit it, but it certainly belongs in this article. --Seattle Skier (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the section most often didn't connect the type of snow it was discussing to any type of skiing at all. I moved the section because:

• this article was long enough as it was (bloat hinders readibility)
• the few connections to skiing it had were to alpine skiing (not once was cross country etc. mentioned).
• the alpine skiing article could do with some more content and the section and the section seemed like interest to alpine skiiers.
• the cross-country skiing article already discusses somewhat about snow as it relates to cross country. The conserns about snow are different in cross country than in alpine.

I think if the snow section gets expanded to explain how different snow types relate to different types of skiing, it warrants its own main article. Skiing article should be kept as generic article pointing to the more specialiced ones I'd say. The Merciful 10:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Alpine Bias

All pictures are about downhill skiing. We need switch some of them with pictures with other types of skiing to give more accurate view for the reader. The text in general looks like it needs some going trough to remove bias as well. Remeber we have separate articles for each sub types of skiing, so this article should give general view of skiing. I also think this article should include the history of skiing upto the point when down hill skiing separated from it (the histories after that mosty in relative articles). The Merciful 09:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, such a bias that I didn't even realize it.. Good catch Merciful! -- Searles2sels (PJ) 14:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the bias, but maybe this represents a "correct" bias in that alpine skiing is more widely practiced? It certainly is in areas where I've lived (United States and Australia), where cross-country/Nordic skiing conditions are rare, but I realize this may not be true everywhere. Jpp42 08:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Jpp42. Cross-country skiers are definitely a small minority in the United States. The vast majority of snowsports enthusiasts in the U.S. are downhill skiers and snowboarders. --Coolcaesar 07:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"Correct bias" is an oxymoron, and purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, not to enforce mistaken prejudices. The article also reads very badly, sometimes talking about swithcing between different forms of skiing without stating so. This must be very confusing for casual reader. The Merciful 12:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Some vandal got rid of my photo of the skier getting evacuated by EMTs

I am putting it back because it vividly illustrates the dangerous nature of skiing (which is why it is so fun). There isn't a National Tennis Patrol or a National Track and Field Patrol making sure that tennis courts and track and field facilities are safe and patrolling for injured persons---but we have the National Ski Patrol! Also, only in skiing (and a few other sports) do participants have to agree to huge contractual disclaimers warning of "SEVERE INJURY, DISABILITY, AND/OR DEATH." --Coolcaesar 18:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

rewrite of opening description of skiing

After trying to rectafy bias in the types of skiing, I decided that my efforts were mucking things up with details rather than creating a balanced view. I've gone after the opening description, keeping basically the same information in the opening while giving a wider view of skiing.Lizzienew 21:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Grrrr. My own bias about snowboarding snuck inself in, so I changed the opening to fit with views expressed in the wikipedia snowboarding article.Lizzienew 22:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I organized the types of skiing sections into Alpine and Nordic catagories based on binding type and history. I removed non-snow types of skiing from list and moved "skwal" and other types of skiing from from the related sports section to their appropriate catagory. Kiteskiing seems to predomenantly use Alpine equipment so I put it the alpine catagory. I've left snowboarding as both a type of alpine skiing and also as a related sport. If anyone is offended by including it in the alpine skiing catagory, please let us know.Lizzienew 21:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow...

Forget a rewrite of a description, this article is rough on a number of levels. This may need a rewrite altogether. The flow is rough, and much of the information is redundant or just wrong. Everyone is worrying about an alpine bias, I'm not sure there's really an issue. The fact is that Alpine is more common, and like most things that are more common, there is more information to present. Think if it were an article about Political Parties, there would be more written about Democrats than Libertarians, it's not a Democrat bias, there's just more info to write. There needs to be more of a focus on grammar and content, and less about how much alpine info is there. Throughthelens (talk) 06:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ski areas

was wondering about maybe adding a section about the different types of skiing, such as glades, groomed trails, bowls, etc. however i am not interested in writing it, anyone willing to go for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.12.199 (talk) 01:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Piste Difficulties

I'm going to add a section on pistes. Feel welcome to contribute (I'm rubbish at adding pictures. Racooon (talk) 08:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

External Link

Sorry axlqc for not asking for permission on adding OnTheSnow.com as an external link. I am new to Wikipedia and still learning the ropes, I did not realize this was the proper ettiquette. I added it because I thought it met the following criteria. "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons."

This site has details on skiing throughout the world. I've been using it to research my ski trips for almost ten years. It does appear to be a commercial site. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Feb_19/ai_n24266592 but it's a good resource. What's the protocol to reconsider this? SkiTraveler (talk) 00:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest you enhance the current wiki-article by using information from the site you proposed. By changing the texts and the wordings you will be not falling into copyright problems. Then you can always properly source your changes to the web site you mentioned, but try to be as accurate as possible or people may also remove those citations. Just a though ... Miguel.mateo (talk) 00:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)