Talk:Sint Eustatius/Archive 1

Archive 1

"Statia" as a nickname for the island

Twice now, an editor has removed this information from this article, once before it was sourced, and once after I provided a source, the second time with the comment that he or she didn't care if it was sourced or not, it was wrong. I have informed them that the removal of sourced information is not allowed, unless an alternate and better source can be provided to support the claim, and that if claim is based on their own experiences, that is original research and is also not allowed. The source in this case is a book by an established historian, Barbara W. Ruchman, First Salute, which takes as its starting point the "First Salute" given to an American ship by the governor of Sint Eustatius during the American revolution. This is an impeccably reliably source. I have asked the editor not to revert it again unless they have a better source to offer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should review what I did. I removed nothing. I tagged a dubious claim as dubious, and you twice inappropriately removed the tag. I seriously doubt that the name spelled "Statius" is pronounced as if it were spelled "Eustus". Please provide a quote from the source to that effect before removing the tag again. — kwami (talk) 05:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed the obviously wrong part. I call the island "Statia", and indeed I don't say "Eustus". Being specific about your objection can go a long way towards defusing these siutations.—Kww(talk) 05:27, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

OKay, thanks very much for cutting through to the nub of the matter. I don't "read" IPA, so my eye slipped right by it without taking it in. My source says that the island is called "Statia" and that's what I was supporting -- the IPA is another matter, about which I have no opinion and no source. Perhaps this is, then, settled? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to have the pronunciation of the nickname, if we know it.

I'm curious as to what it is I was "deleting", and why you thought that. — kwami (talk) 05:44, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know IPA. Staw shuh, more or less. Accent on first syllable.—Kww(talk) 05:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that gets us most of the way. Would you say that aw is the vowel of 'caught', of 'cot', of 'father', or of more than one of those? — kwami (talk) 06:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Those are all the same in my dialect (midwestern USA, predominantly Hoosier). It's the standard "a" sound from Dutch, because it's a contraction of the Dutch name.—Kww(talk) 06:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I've been looking around the IPA charts, and I would question the IPA for "Eustatius" as well. In English, "Saint Eustatius" certainly has that pronunciation, but the Dutch "Sint Eustatius" has what http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/vowels.html produces as an unrounded open a sound (lower left). It's like the article is blending Dutch and English.—Kww(talk) 06:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I'll take it as the "vahs" vowel. — kwami (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Changed the pronunciation to "Saint" E. When Statians speak English, do they say "Saint" or "Sint"? If "Saint", why are we calling this "Sint" on English-language WP? If they say "Sint", how was the pronunciation a blend of Dutch & English? — kwami (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Any Statian I've ever spoken to generally called it Statia (using the Dutch "a"), but I occasionally heard "Saint Eustatius" when speaking with people in English . The official name of the island is "Sint Eustatius" because, while the island is predominantly English-speaking, the primary government language is Dutch. I lived on Bonaire for five years, and that is where my exposure to Antillean things comes from. It may be a bit tainted, because English is a second language for most people there. Most of my exposure to things Statian comes from one of my employees, who was born and raised there.—Kww(talk) 07:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have never heard Statia being pronounced as /ˈstɑːʃə/, but always as /ˈsteɪʃə/). Take a look at this television programme about Statia. Natives pronounce Statia this way @3:29 and the voice-over does the same @1:05 (there are probably more instances of pronouncing Statia in this vid, but I have no time to watch it all over again). Dutch pronunciation of Statia would be [ˈstɑːtsiɑ]. Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 14:50, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if people I talked to were using a Dutchified version of the name. I find /ˈsteɪʃə/) a bit jarring, but that video is certainly a more reliable indicator than my memory.—Kww(talk) 15:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

We give the official name in English as "Sint". If it's "Saint" in English, we really should move the article. We go by English names on WP, not by the official language, for all countries. Only exceptions are places like Cote d'Ivoire which have promoted the official-language name in English media. — kwami (talk) 19:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The language predominantly used on Statia is English. The government of the island uses English on its official site, and spells the name of the territory "Sint Eustatius" in ENGLISH, not in Dutch. Dutch is given as an option on the website, but the main site is written in English. I think, therefore, that the name of the article should be reverted to Sint Eustatius and not Saint Eustatius, as it is clearly used in English as well as in Dutch. http://www.statiagovernment.com/ "Sint Eustatius Welcomes You - A warm welcome from the Government of Sint Eustatius – known to our friends simply as Statia". Also, regarding the pronunciation, as Statia is simply a contraction of Eustatius, doesn't it follow that the pronunciation of the 'a' would be the same? It's "yoo-STAY-shus" and not "yoo-STAH-shus", and so this vowel sound is surely kept in the short form "STAY-sha" Mcruic (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. This was listed as an uncontroversial move in addition to this request; I don't think there was any potential for controversy, so I went ahead and moved it. -- Hadal (talk) 04:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

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Saint Eustatius → Sint Eustatius – I request this article to be moved back to its original name Sint Eustatius. The move to Saint Eustatius was done because of the spelling in ISO 3166-1 Newsletter VI-8, but half a year later it was corrected to Sint Eustatius as the correct English name in ISO 3166-1 Newsletter VI-9 "in alignment with United Nations Terminology". Styath (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support: It was pretty obviously a mistake in the first place. I'm not sure it belongs under controversial moves, but I guess another week under the wrong name won't hurt.—Kww(talk) 21:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support: Good that it gives consistency with Sint Maarten again. But that's not the point; in a place where both seem in quit common use; we have to go by the governmental announcements (in this case via ISO)... L.tak (talk) 21:56, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support: The more common name (I think), and also used by the government itself [1]. Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support: shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I've only ever seen it as sint. We shouldn't be relying on the ISO to be setting our article names. Rennell435 (talk) 07:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support Clearly should not have ever been moved. Outback the koala (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fuel Storage Facility

Can anybody please write something in the Economy section on the huge fuel storage facility that comprise almost an entire end of the island. What is it for, why is it so big compired to the island? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tavernsenses (talk • contribs) 10:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

First Salute

"Between the dates of these two letters an event occurred which raised British exasperation to the highest point. On the 16th of November, 1776, a vessel of the infant Continental navy, the Andrew Doria, Captain Isaiah Robinson, flying the flag of thirteen stripes, dropped anchor in the road of St. Eustatius and saluted Fort Orange with eleven guns; and the salute was returned. This has been claimed as the first occasion on which the American flag was saluted in a foreign port. But a letter written from the Danish island of St. Croix to Vice-Admiral Young, on October 27 preceding, after mentioning the departure of an unnamed American schooner with a small cargo of powder two days before, adds: "But my astonishment was great to find such a Commerce countenanced by Government here. The Vessel went out under American Colours, saluted the Fort and had the compliment returned the same as if she had been an English or Danish ship." From American Historical Review Vol. 8 No. 4 (Jul. 1903), pp683‑708. Found at http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/AHR/8/4/StEustatius_in_the_American_Revolution*.html Cwrwgar (talk) 08:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

See Note in main article (about the Danish First Salute).

• Fredericksted on St Croix, then Danish, claims First Salute in October 1776. article in Danish wikipedia in Danish.

"From Fort Frederik was fired the first salute in recognition of the USA independance in 1776" Frederiksted is a town on St Croix in the US Virgin Islands which were previously the Danish West Indies. .. The town is dominated by the red and white Fort Frederik from the 1750's. The fort has special meaning to both USA and Denmark-Norway. It was from here that the first foreign salute of recognition of USA independance was given in 1776.

• Christiansted, chief town on St Croix, in June 1776 - quoting from the summary of the book

Saint Croix 1770-1776: The First Salute to the Stars and Stripes (Paperback) By (author) Robert Amandus Johnson "Robert Amandus Johnson chronicled this period of the history of Saint Croix from 1770-1776 and the remarkable relationship of the Island to the emerging American Nation. It relates, what is believed to be, the first foreign recognition of the American "Stars and Stripes." This occurred in Christiansted, St Croix in June 1776, prior to Congressional approval of the Declaration of Independence. This early "Stars and Stripes" was being flown from the American Brig "Nancy." The American Revolutionary Financier, Robert Morris had chartered the Brig "Nancy," on behalf of Congress, to acquire critically needed gunpowder in the Danish West Indies. Mr. Johnson resides in St Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, his adopted home since first arriving as an Ensign in the U.S Navy in 1959."

This may be the wrong page for discussion on the First Salute - but it is an interesting discussion Viking1808 (talk) 18:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)