Talk:Sing a Song of Sixpence

Sources

The current first sentence: "Sing a Song of Sixpence is a well known English rhyme, the origins of which are uncertain; two main competing theories circulating on the Internet are" etc. Do we have reputable sources for this other than online rumor-mongering? And if we do, why is this the lead? I'm not sure what exactly should be done here, but surely it needs work in citing sources. I'll slap on a tag. -Phoenixrod 08:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm not sure what tag would be appropriate. -Phoenixrod 08:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It's "Tommy Thumb's Pretty Songbook", not "Tom Thumb's". A quick search under its correct title shows this attribution to be fairly widespread. A checkable reference to a specific printed work, made on many respectable sites and not positively contradicted anywhere (those who make the "Pye" case don't mention the "Pretty Songbook": nobody actually mentions but denies this theory), is much more plausible than the "Pye" theory. I think the 1744 origin is acceptable until someone can cite an earlier one - it would be simply perverse to conclude that everyone's lying and a later origin is correct. Can't somebody just pop up to the British Library and look at the Songbook? If I do it myself does that count as original research or is it up to Wiki standards?

I learned it with the additional "Along came a bluebird / And brought it back again" as the last two lines. Is this just me, or do these lines have merit? 66.82.9.76 06:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

---

My family is Pagan, so I see & was taught everything through that lens.

'Sing a song of sixpence' Refers to only being able to see half the sky at anyone time (sixpence is half a shilling in 'old' British money) and that we, humans, are the voice of the earth, who should celebrate what we see & experience. 'Pocket full of rye': rye seeds are VERY small so a pocket can hold 2 or 3 thousand = about as many stars one can see on a clear night. 'Four & twenty blackbirds baked in a pie': the 24 hours in each day. The 'King' is the sun, counting out the golden days. The 'Queen' is the moon, self consuming with a surface which looks like bread & honey. The 'maid' is the earth, hanging out the clouds (because that's what happens on our cool, damp planet). It's the winter cold which snaps/pecks off the maid's nose. 'Little Jenny Wren' is the spring returning & restoring the earth. (the wren used in this way is very old symbolism). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totus*tutu (talk • contribs) 21:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Henry VIII

My understanding is that the blackbirds were the deeds of the dissolved monsateries presented to Henry VIII during the Dissolution of the Monasteries. I thought the rhyme had true historical significance?

Ah, found a web ref [1] Candy 13:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Corrected the link to the correct context page - Chef Frank

While of limited historical credibility, the following from http://www.fourntwenty.com.au/ suggests Henry VIII was the derivation of Australia's highest selling meat pie:

The name Four’n Twenty is derived from a story about King Henry VIII. When entertaining guests, King Henry VIII would have 24 blackbirds placed in to the baked pie. When the pie was served at the dinner table, he would have the birds fly out of the pie.

Recruitment song?

I was brought up being informed that it transpired as a nonchalant crew recruitment song for a specific pirate, Blackbeard. I wrote out a huge explination of this then cracked the shits when a certain line slipped my memory and a few google results later and I stumbled across this nice outline of it's origin. Perhaps this could be included? The current 'history' section is very ambiguous. Jachin 10:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

--Yep, DEFINANTLY worth putting in!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.178.147 (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah. This would be in the section of Snopes called "Lost Legends", with the warning: "These legends aren't really lost -; we've known where they were the whole time! We created The Repository of Lost Legends (TRoLL for short) for those of you who don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. If you have a taste for the unusual and arcane (and can suspend your disbelief just a little), sample some of these precious gems."

Snopes themselves admit that the article is false: http://www.snopes.com/lost/false.asp

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbeard article even notes this as a delibrate spoof!

(I'd correct the article myself, but I have no experience of dealing with the links and am not going to *** up the page...)

157.203.42.50 (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I have read several different wikipedia pages stating that this rumor is false. http://www.snopes.com/humor/mediagoofs/sixpence.asp states that snopes themselves invented the legend 71.113.81.45 (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Handbags and Gladrags

Some of the lyrics can also be heard in the Song "Handbags & Gladrags" by Mike d'Abo, Rod Stewart, Stereophonics, etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.230.107.192 (talk) 16:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this used to be part of the article before someone was "Culling the fold". Apparently, an Elvis Costello song that nobody has heard of is less cullable than one that everybody has heard Rod Stewart sing. Weird.

24 Musicians?

I was intrigued to notice that the Feast of the Pheasant featured 24 musicians in a giant pie, so I came here to see if there was any connection. I'm sure I've heard before that the blackbirds represent singers. I apologise for the pointlessness of my mentioning this. Perhaps hiding 24 unexpected items in a novelty pie was a common trick throughout the middle ages. 81.131.4.100 (talk) 18:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Why not just say "choirboys" instead of "musicians"? Blackbirds singing may easily be a reference to 24 trebles (note the earlier reference to "naughty boys"), whose smaller size would make the "baked in a pie" easier as well as their boyish energies a good match for springing out "when the pie was opened." 68.77.152.234 (talk) 18:41, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Pocketful

I have always assumed that the 'pocketful of rye' referred to either a day's wages or a workingman's lunch, and that the lines "Sing a song of six-pence, pocketful of rye" were meant to induce an image of someone off to their daily job. When added to the rest of the rhyme, it is much like scanning newspaper headlines and listening to radio gossip on the way to work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.233.146.193 (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Pirate explanation

The explanation of pirate origins on Snopes see was a joke, as can be seen here [2]. Please do not add it to the article.--SabreBD (talk) 18:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Tax

This sounds like a song about tax and injustice?

While the king/queen are wasting food and counting their ill gotten gains. The maiden, whos has only got a pocket full of rye, had her nose cut off for not paying tax, as was the punishment for non payment. RG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.111.224.17 (talk) 10:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Alternate 5th Verse

In the book I had as a child ("Mother Goose's Nursery Rhymes" I think it was called... the book was accidentally destroyed), the fifth verse was:

Jenny was so mad

She didn't know what to do

She stuck her finger in her ear

And cracked it right in two

Obviously Jenny is implied to be the maid in this version. And while it has the effect of not ending the song on the bird's attack on the maid, it does nothing about the maid's now missing nose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.10.229.20 (talk) 05:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Blackbird

Anyone have any idea how this is related to Blackbird by the Beatles? Other than "Blackbird" and a few other words like "and" or "the", I don't see a connection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.32.12.199 (talk) 03:31, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

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Melody

That's not the tune I learned. I don't believe it is the best-known version, at least in the U.S. Kostaki mou (talk) 20:16, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I've known the rhyme for close to sixty years, but I've never heard the melody given here. It's unattributed, as well. It needs a description of its source, and whether it should be considered the definitive melody, or simply one of many historical melodies. ajad (talk) 19:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Any reason both tunes can't be included? I think that would be nice. Kostaki mou (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The melody for the U.S. version is not exactly wrong, but it is a very vague transcription of the correct tune. The correct tune has a singsong-type of rhythm.

In the correct tune, the first note is a quarter note, the second an eighth note, the third a quarter note, and the fourth an eighth note; the remaining two notes in the measure are each dotted quarter notes. The time signature should probably be 12/8, not common time.

I hope the correct tune can replace this vague approximation to it. 2601:200:C082:2EA0:685C:5576:974E:96FD (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Misattributed 5th verse

The 5th verse added by user Pamelady on 21st Feb 2020 ("And shortly after that...") is placed in such a way as to imply that it is part of the version in Iona and Peter Opie's Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. I'm fairly sure it isn't. Shouldn't that verse be moved to after the line "One of the following additional verses is often added to moderate the ending"? Or even removed entirely (it doesn't scan, so it seems doubtful that it's actually the way anybody sings it)? HairyDan (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@HairyDan You're right. I've removed it. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)