Talk:Sinauli

Shiv Sastry source

@Poseidon0601: I think Sastry's paper looks well-researched and it would be nice to include it, but it looks to me like it hasn't been published anywhere. Do you know of a journal or anything that has published it that I simply failed to find? If not, I'm afraid we really shouldn't add a self-published source. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Please stop engaging Hindu-right fringe with kid gloves. Have you seen the first edit summary of Poseidon0601? TrangaBellam (talk) 20:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually it's a good idea to treat any new editors with some kindness because you never know who will become a good contributor. Yes, I saw their summary and I find your response barely more civil. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:23, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Also, it would seem to me (though I'm not an expert) that the article at present does a fair job reflecting the range of opinions currently found in scholarly research on this subject, but if you want to talk about improvements that's always welcome. I'd ask you to leave off the type of name-calling that was in your edit summary though, as that doesn't help with discussion. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:21, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

From Shiv Shastry diff:

There is no doubt that chariots and horses were a familiar sight in India five thousand years ago.

That is, at the start of the Kali Yuga and the Mahabaratha War, in Indian mythology. Or before the Mature Harappan Civilisation, at the time that the proto-Indo-Europeans started to migrate, in real-world history. "Hindu right fringe" exactly pins down the nature of this kind of thought, and the attitude beyond this kind of additions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I assumed there was some reason that the paper never got published anywhere. It's still best not to WP:BITE though. There are of course loads of people that come here with an agenda and/or non-mainstream ideas, but if they're met with a bit of decency then once in awhile they find their way to making positive contributions in topics that are less controversial. -- Fyrael (talk) 13:50, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Your optimism is admirable; I have to agree that some learn the rules, in contrast to the ones who get blocked. Anyway, Shastry refers to Chariots in the Chalcolithic Rock Art of Indian A Slide Show, Neumayer Erwin, a perennial source for support of fringe-ideas on the presence of the horse in India before the arrival of the Aryans. That's one of the problems with editors residing in this alternate realities (just like COVID-deniers and the like): a closed circuit of crappy sources and invalid arguments, patched with endless loops when falsification dooms. Google "Hindu Holocaust" or "Hindutva harassment" for some of the ugly faces of this phenomenon. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Neumayer himself dates the chariot-paintings to 1800-1200 BCE; see

• Neumayer, Erwin. "Chariots in the Chalcolithic Rock Art of Indian" (PDF).
• harappa.com, Chariots in the Chalcolithic Rock Art of India</ref>

See also Celeste Paxton (2016), in Voices from the past: Researcher explores a mystery across 40 centuries , for a realistic dating of cave-art spoked wheels" "neo-chalcolithic," 2300-1000 BCE. That is, Late Harappan c.q. Aryan migration period, or even early Vedic period. You see, that's why I, and a lot of other editors, have little faith in pov-editors like Poseidon0601. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:20, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

you are brainwashed at a huge rate about the belief known as hinduism 2402:8100:2390:3D74:34B5:226A:70F3:7A6B (talk) 00:37, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

prove that mahabharat is mythology,and debate properly 2402:8100:2390:3D74:34B5:226A:70F3:7A6B (talk) 00:38, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Chariot or cart

I have question if this vehicle found is cart which is pulled by bull then why did that ancient people decoreted this cart like Chariot? Please explain me. Srimant ROSHAN (talk) 05:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Why not? Maybe you can explain that to me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

When I see the reconstruction of that vehicle it looks like chariot type the only thing which makes it cart is solid wheel. But ,when we see carts of that time its object carrying space is larger then this vehicle which make it light . And the question remains that "Which animal was their to pull the vehicle ?" this question will answer that this vehicle is chariot or cart. When we see the pre-historic fossils of India (such as Equus sivalensis and horse remains of Surkotada) we also found the fossil of horse/pony . If this vehicle is chariot then horse/pony which used to pulled that vehicle was not also died therefore that horse remains are not found and where buried in another place which is not found . Srimant ROSHAN (talk) 03:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

And what does it have to do with decorations? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:12, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Design of the vehicle is like chariot . But their is only objection is the solid wheel . This wheels can be light weighted also to pulled by an horse . By this all things including decoration like chariot mostly it belongs to horse pulled chariot type . Then why they consider This vehicle as cart ? explain me . And another thing is that in Mesopotamian painting I seen some chariots having solid wheel.

Relief of early war wagons on the Standard of Ur, c. 2500 BC

Srimant ROSHAN (talk) 07:27, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

According to your opinion what type of this vehicle is ?Srimant ROSHAN (talk) 07:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

At the Standard of Ur? Not a chariot; by definition, a chariot is a two-wheeled vehicle with spoke wheels. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

See Ławecka, Dorota (October 2017). "Who were the Tribute-Bearing People on the "Standard of Ur"?". Journal of Near Eastern Studies. 76 (2): 337–348. ISSN 0022-2968. and other articles mentioned in the bibliography.

Many scholars have used the term chariot to describe the vehicles of the (so-called) war panel. They use both "war-wagons" and "chariots" (depending on whims, I guess) within a single article/chapter and choose to not abide by the rigid definition of chariot in history of transportation technology, as cited in Parpola (2020).

However, this choice of semantics hardly matters. In what matters the most, Lawecka and others note that the chariots/war-wagons of Standard of Ur were not pulled by horses. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Anthony, David W. (2006), "The Prehistory of Scythian Cavalry: The Evolution of Fighting on Horseback", in Aruz, Joan; Farkas, Ann; Valtz Fino, Elisabetta (eds.), The Golden Deer of Eurasia: Perspectives on the Steppe Nomads of the Ancient World, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.): ""Wagons have four wheels, carts have two, and chariots have two spoked wheels, so that the vehicles on the Ur Standard are wagons, not chariots, as they are often called." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:23, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

So know in your opinion what we called this Sinauli vehicle chariot or cart. Srimant ROSHAN (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Check my edits and find out yourself. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually the question here is not of chariot or cart. The real question are

1. spoked wheel or not.
2. horse pulled or not

Have you seen the chariot of Puri Jagannātha? They are huge solid wheel. You can call those rathas as Chariot. But the standard definition of chariot doesn’t contain a solid-wheel. Regarding horse: The Sinauli finds are not without any images of animals. They contained motifs of bull head. If these carts were indeed pulled by horse, surely there would be some artistic representation of horse from the very finds. But there weren’t any so far. ChandlerMinh (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Sintashta and chariots

Two interesting blogs by Razib Khan on Sintashta and the invention of the chariot:

• sept 17, 2021, The echoes of greater Scythia, referring to Kaliff and Oestigaard (2020), The Great Indo-European Horse Sacrifice: 4000 Years of Cosmological Continuity from Sintashta and the Steppe to Scandinavian Skeid, Uppsala universitet, full text available here
• sept 16, 2021, The heavenly horses of the Sintashta, referring to The origins and spread of domestic horses from the Western Eurasian steppes:

If you have an interest in the domestic horse (I have) you are aware it’s the product of massive demographic radiation from a small founder population. With ancient DNA we now know where it started: with the Sintashta people of the Volga to the Ural steppe 4,000 years ago.
This is not totally surprising, because we know that the Sintashta were highly warlike and they invented the light war-chariot.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:19, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Nice ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

This same Khan? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

yup him only. He has authored a book along with Romila Thapar and Witzel. ChandlerMinh (talk) 16:08, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

“because we know that the Sintashta were highly warlike and they invented the light war-chariot.” what is the evidence for it? ChandlerMinh (talk) 16:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

WITZEL TOLD :early aryan migration but what is the evidence of that migration? and why only leftist historians like witzel have to considered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:2390:3D74:85A9:B2A4:E20B:E24D (talk) 23:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Changes regarding use of term "Carts" for "Chariots" and regarding other such statements such as no evidence of horse fossils or depictions in the Indian subcontinent.

In the the article the term "Cart" is used to describe an artefact which clearly resembles a "Chariot" and the claim that there are no evidences found in the subcontinent which points towards the existence of horses before the invasion of Aryan (as per the theory). Although there have been various evidences which do support the existence of horse in the subcontinent before the invasion.

And the other issue in the article was that it have a political statement which was used to prove a claim rather than a scientifically backed research.

I will describe more on this as the people reading this react. Thank you SuVritra (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The article quite clear describes why the term "cart" is being used: the wagons were heavy wagons, that is, carts; chariots are lighter. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:53, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

References are a terrible mess

I've done a bit of cleanup of non-rs sources. It's not easy because we have cited notes, cited references, cited news sources, all organised differently. And for some reason printed sources have no citations. Not a very good article either. Doug Weller talk 14:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan Fyi, TrangaBellam (talk) 10:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)