Talk:Simoun (anime)/Archive 1

External links

There appears to be some disagreement over whether the article should link to Yui's fan page. Reasons why I think it should:

1. The page contains a significant amount of information. Although some of it is speculative and does not meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability, it may still be of interest to readers.
2. There are almost no English-language resources for this series, so links to any page of reasonable quality are beneficial at this stage.
3. The link is clearly tagged as a fan page, so readers will know it is an unofficial source.

SimonB NZ 08:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think point #2 is extremely persuasive, at least until better English-language sources emerge. Isn't there a template somewhere that lets us mark this page as referring to an ongoing event or currently-airing series? We ought to mark this page thusly, to let readers know that terminology and romanizations are likely to change as more information emerges over time.... Susan Davis 05:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

See Cleanup actions below for the thinking behind the English-language glossary link SimonB NZ 12:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

Where to even begin... Well first of all, names shouldn't be put in headers, especially when you have a lot of characters. The same goes for the "Glossary" which should probably be spun off onto its own page. Instead, a bulleted or defined list is preferred. The only exception to this rule is when an article is a list of characters for a series, but since this is and article on an anime/manga series, that exception doesn't apply. The primary reason for this is that it makes the TOC longer then it needs to be and just clutters up the article.

Second, in accordance with WP:1SP#Think of the reader and WP:1SP#Use other languages sparingly, the term "Seiyū" shouldn't be used the way it is. The English equivalent "Voice actor" or better still, "Voiced by" should be used instead.

It is also head to tell if the kanji for the names belongs to the voice actor or the character. That should be cleared up. You can look at Rozen Maiden and particularly Planetes as examples to go by. And remember, always cite your information. --TheFarix (Talk) 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actions taken

First off, thanks for the guidance (newbie Wikipedian here)

• Glossary redone as sorted definition list, but left on main page for now.
• Removed entry for 'Deux' as I'm not sure where it's sourced from (dialogue in the anime?). As well as the source we need the original kana, whether or not we use a direct transliteration in the glossary (e.g. the way paru has become "pal" - is this acceptable?)

SimonB NZ 14:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Characters redone as definition list following Rozen Maiden as an example (it seemed to fit better).
• I've tried to make our use of transliteration/Romanisation consistent, even at the price of some clumsiness. Per WP:MOS-JA each entry is headed by, and begins with, the direct transliteration. Where there's a common, looser Romanisation, it's included in parentheses then used thereafter - this seems to be the best compromise between accuracy and reader-friendliness. Given that there's only one episode of the fansub out so far, I don't think we can claim to have "generally-used names" as suggested in WP:Anime.
• As a special case of the above I've standardised on "Neviril" for Neviriru. We were using it in the majority of places anyway, and it's a more conservative Romanisation than "Neville" in the sense that it's closer to the direct transliteration.
• We probably need to subdivide the character list in some way, e.g. Main Characters and Minor Characters. Again this may be premature, so I've left it strictly alphabetical for now.

SimonB NZ 15:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

That's much better. I've changed the references to use the functions from m:Cite/Cite.php. The one for the glossary I'm still not sure about on its placement. Overall, I still think the glossary should not be on the page if it can be avoided. Glossaries are generally fancruft and should be used sparingly to define terms used in the article. --TheFarix (Talk) 23:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem is that we're trying to achieve two different things with the glossary. One is to provide a direct translation of the Japanese word list and the other is to fill out extra information about the world of Simoun. The former could be achieved with an external link to the original translation - I'll contact the translator to see whether they intend to keep their page up as a reference. The latter is better achieved by a (spoiler-free) introductory section before the character list. I'll try to draft something up, but volunteers are of course welcome. SimonB NZ 04:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added a rough draft for other volunteers to mark up. I also standardized on "Chor" as the unit of organization of Simoun -- "Call", "Corps", and "Chor" have all been batted around in different places, but Yui's site uses "Chor", and it's a slightly more conservative romanization than "Corps." Susan Davis 05:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and there are a lot of places where the kana needs to be filled in, if someone feels like wandering over to simoun.tv .... -- Susan Davis 05:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've confirmed that the original fan-translated glossary page is intended to remain up long-term, and its author is happy for us to link to it. As far as I can tell all the extra info that was in the Glossary section has been moved to Background, so with the new external link the Glossary is now redundant. (Just to clarify, 203.173.188.4 was me forgetting to log in.) SimonB NZ 12:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Romanization Choices

No official English romanization has been released for the technical terms in this series. What appears on the page is a provisional set of romanizations as a placeholder until official English-language sources appear. Where possible, the original katakana (or other Japanese original text) is provided to allow the reader to make up their own mind. Susan Davis 07:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• As well as the source we need the original kana, whether or not we use a direct transliteration in the glossary (e.g. the way paru has become "pal" - is this acceptable?) SimonB NZ 14:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've tried to make our use of transliteration/Romanisation consistent, even at the price of some clumsiness. Per WP:MOS-JA each entry is headed by, and begins with, the direct transliteration. Where there's a common, looser Romanisation, it's included in parentheses then used thereafter - this seems to be the best compromise between accuracy and reader-friendliness. Given that there's only one episode of the fansub out so far, I don't think we can claim to have "generally-used names" as suggested in WP:Anime. SimonB NZ 15:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• As a special case of the above I've standardised on "Neviril" for Neviriru. We were using it in the majority of places anyway, and it's a more conservative Romanisation than "Neville" in the sense that it's closer to the direct transliteration. SimonB NZ 15:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• I... standardized on "Chor" as the unit of organization of Simoun -- "Call", "Corps", and "Chor" have all been batted around in different places, but Yui's site uses "Chor", and it's a slightly more conservative romanization than "Corps." Susan Davis 05:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"Chor" (コール)-- as the translator of the glossary page, I really find this unacceptable. There is no reason to add the "h", in my opinion. I prefer "Corps", which has a meaning that seems to me appropriate, but I can see that either "Kor" or "Cor" would be a more conservative way to go. I await comment before making any change. Yui's fanpages are a great resource, but are definitely not authoritative for English equivalents. hashihime 16:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this is one of those "wtf were they thinking?" things, corps makes sense, 'chor' is seemingly nonsense. Is there an official site or something that uses 'chor'? Is there any other German used in the show? If there isn't, we should use the more commonplace military unit name cause that is probably the intention of the creators. (The Caudron Simoun was a french aircraft, so using german would be weird though.) Kyaa the Catlord 17:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Chor" is Greek in origin, not German, and as such fits in with the rest of the pseudo-classical terminology ("auriga," "sagitta," "Tempus Spatium," "Arcus Prima," and so forth) used by the series. It also fits in with concepts expressed on film: the Sibylla before the war were priestesses offering prayers to the sky in their Simoun, not warriors. (And consider the title of the ED.) I disagree that "corps" was "probably the intention of the creators" -- the Sibylla would be more likely to organize in a "choir" (chor) of priestesses than in any kind of military unit... but given that there's a war on, "Corps" probably works just as well now. For that matter, might the name have been intentionally ambiguous in this way? Please consider this line of reasoning before editing everything to "corps"... but if you did so, I wouldn't complain. Susan Davis 22:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of the origin of this word and it confused me. I thought it was German based on only German hits coming up when I googled it. I defer to thy greater knowledge. :D Kyaa the Catlord 10:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, I have to apologise for my poor English, since my mother toungue is Japanese. In this series, we can observe some French terms (e.g. "Simoun" is an aircraft, "marge" means a stroke, and so forth), so that "kōru" must be "corps" (pronounced as in French). The creator once told somewhere, that Simoun Sibyllae were ordered to utilise Simouns for fighting in war, and to do so, they were reorganised into some corps. Isn't this a conclusive evidence? --Marianne-ja 18:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  Sounds like Marianne has the right idea. -- Ned Scott 03:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Can you provide a citation for the reference from the series creator? Short of that, there's quite a bit of on-screen evidence that the Sibyllae considered themselves strictly religious, rather than military, before the war, but were organized into choirs of twelve priestesses back then. Furthermore, "chor" agrees with the wasei-doitsu term "sprechchor", which means "to speak in unison as a group." As is repeatedly stated, the Sibyllae refer to Simoun piloting as "speaking to the Simoun", which makes "chor" the obvious name for a group whose job is to "speak to the Simoun" in unison. Susan Davis 06:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  I just watched part of it again, and I realized, wait, they don't like using military terms o.O So on second thought, maybe it's not corps after all. Or maybe it's supposed to be some sort of weird word play? In any case, after re-watching that, I'd have to side with Susan and keep it the way it is until more information can be found. -- Ned Scott 06:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  • On the other hand, that's the first consistent and plausible etymology for "Māju" and "Ri Mājon" that I've seen. If "Ri Mājon" comes from the French, could the "Ri" in it be French, too? "Le Mājon," perhaps? Although I've generally seen "le" rendered in katakana as "ru" rather than "ri", IIRC. Articles would be "ru", "ra", or "rei", and the object marker "li" doesn't make sense. Hmm. "Re-mājon?" Susan Davis 13:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Hello, again. I can happily provide a citation. Are you ready to read Japanese passages? ^-^ Here it is. [Series introduction page (Simoun official weblog)] In the last line in the 2nd paragraph, you can see the point. For those who cannot read Japanese, what the line sais is... "The sibyllae, girls who haven't been sexualised, were reorganised into combatting platoons, called "kōru", as pilots--." What do you think about this? Also, I'd like to agrue about etymology. Quite a few terms are based on Latin, such as simulacrum, argentum, auriga, sagitta, regina and so forth, as we all can easily recognise. Now, can you name any other Greek or German terms in this series? I'm afraid, but I can't. Well, I'm rather wandering if "māju" and "ri mājon" are French or not, but "Simoun" is a French word anyway. Taking everything considered, "kōru" must be a French word "corps", in my opinion, but, you know, I'm not absolutely certain... The term can be mere word play, as Ned suggested. More opinions, welcome. ^-^ --Marianne-ja 15:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hmm, that's very interesting. There are some other examples of introductory material that the series has since moved away from (Alti and Kaimu being twins, Neviril being "Nebular", etc.), but that certainly adds some weight to the "corps" side of the scales. I had thought that the debate was heavily weighted in favour of the choir interpretation, but this brings it closer to level. Does the offical blog have a "leave a comment" feature or an address where the creators can be contacted? Perhaps someone with a better command of Japanese could contact them to request clarification on that point.... Susan Davis 16:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I have to apologise for my making a mistake. The site I told in my preveous message was not a weblog but a BIGLOBE site. I'm sorry. BTW, I scrutinised all three official sites, but I couldn't find any "contact to the creators" nor "leave your comments" things. They seem not to have an intension to provide those features. I do have good enough command of Japanese (why not, I'm a native Japanese speaker,) but we have no way to get the final answer directly from the creators. Dear, dear, we mustn't grumble. --Marianne-ja 19:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Well, many anime productions have radio broadcasts where star seiyuu comment on the show and answer questions (Gundam SEED apparently had a video version of this); I wonder if Simoun is any different in this regard? I can read and speak Japanese myself, but finding this sort of information is a bit beyond me... 24.4.105.240 12:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The second soundtrack CD has "Call Tempest" in the jacket. Does this make "call" official or is this yet another sample of Engrish? Hmmm... Magus Melchior 15:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Page Template

If someone more clueful in the way of Wikipedia templates can find a better template than "current", that'd be great -- I thought I remembered seeing one for marking a currently airing TV series, about which facts may change rapidly as information is revealed, but I can't seem to find one. Help? Susan Davis 07:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I can see your dilemma, but 'current' isn't the right choice (a piece of fiction isn't an event). The background info is great to have, but at this stage in the series it's inherently speculative - as presented the background is plausible, but not verifiable. This is particularly true of terminology, since we still only have best guesses. There's also the problem of how to cite a fictional source even when the story does support a statement. In the absence of a "TV show in progress" template I've tagged the background as needing verification - this isn't ideal, but it alerts the reader and it'll hopefully gain the attention of a more experienced editor who can guide us on what to do. SimonB NZ 08:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What you want is something like Template:Future tvshow. Shiroi Hane 23:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Solution: there's now an "In-Progress TV Show" template, which seems to be precisely what we want. Susan Davis 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Citations

I've gone back over the background section again, and the one sentence that was genuinely unverifiable was the one about how the Daikuurikan gender change works; I've removed that, and changed the tag to unreferencedsect. Everything else in the section is backed up by on-screen dialogue, or external sites that are referenced at the bottom of the page; I'm just not 100% certain how to correctly cite all it, and I need to go to bed now. Susan Davis 08:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

There was one more sentence speculating about how the Ri Maajon gem works; I yanked that, too. The rest, I think, is all directly from on-screen dialogue or verifiable sources; I'll do a blow-by-blow after work tonight. Susan Davis 16:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

(Obviously, "tonight after work didn't happen; however:) Okay, next question: what's the correct way to cite facts stated by characters on screen? Simoun is dense with exposition, which is why the "Background" section needs to be so detailed, but everything in it (and in a hypothetical "Story" section) needs to be verifiable. The primary source text (i.e. what happens on screen) is clearly the most reliable source for verification, but how does one cite something like "Wapourif explains this to Morinas in episode 3?" Susan Davis 00:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What we've done over at Plot Summary of Eureka Seven (anime) was just use the Cite.php engine for commentary, but that's probably an improper use of Cite (not to mention, the page in question has a very different structure). 24.4.105.240 00:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a first cut at this, but I'll go back and beef it up when I'm on a machine with the series available to quote directly from. Susan Davis 19:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You've done a good job, Susan, however, I feel that adding "Wapourif explains this to Morinas in episode 3" is superfluous. I think, it's enough if we just say "Episode 03" without any more narrowing. An ep is only 20 minutes long, and if someone wants to verify a certain piece of info, it can be found without much effort in it. Moreover, this way we can compact the refs section a bit (I'll do some prework on that as soon as I finish this message, so you know what I'm talking about) and in the end, it'll look like this. What do you say? --Koveras 17:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Splitting the article

Look, folks, I appreciate you work but the article is already one and a half bigger than the optimal size. How about splitting it? I propose following articles:

• List of Simoun characters
• List of Simoun episodes
• Simoun (mecha) (this is for the description of Simouns + the Ri Maajons list discussed below)
• Category:Simoun

That leaves the original article with just the description of the setting and the plot summary. Share you opinions, please. --Koveras 19:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

If we do that, we should probably mimic Eureka Seven and have a plot summary. I've been hacking at it for a while, and it's getting really weighty. Magus Melchior 06:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, keep in mind that WP:SIZE is largely considered out of date. I'd split the episode list first, then the list of characters if needed. Other than that, not much else is needed. -- Ned Scott 06:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

T

Whoa, just took another look at that plot section, yeah, might want to cut that down a little or follow the Eureka example. -- Ned Scott 06:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The other advantage of splitting it off is that we can hide spoilers more effectively, and we can split the summary into its story arcs. Magus Melchior 06:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed.. actually.. yeah.. it all seems like a good idea.. never-mind my first comment :) Also, I very much favor the idea of plot summary article / story arc article(s) over individual episode articles, at least for a show like this. -- Ned Scott 07:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I also think that to start a new article for each of 26 20-min episodes is a bit overboard, and I support the idea of moving the Simoun plot summary to a separate article and replacing it with a non-spoilorific synopsis in the main one. As for its title, I propose Plot summary of Simoun: we don't need "(anime)" specification since there are no other Simouns with a plot summary, plus, the capitalization of the word "summary" is IMO excessive. As for the separate story arcs, we can easily stick with subsections instead of individual articles as long as the plot summary is kept within the reasonable size. --Koveras 09:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking of the (anime) suffix, mainly because one of the mangas has a very different plot (iirc). But I don't think a manga plot summary will take up nearly as much screen real estate to warrant a separate article. Magus Melchior 01:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The plot summary has blown up over the past few episodes, as editors providing more recent changes to it have been much less concise. (It's great to see other editors taking an interest in this article, by the way.) That would be less of a problem if it were split out into a separate article, although further detail ought to be added to the earlier sections if the current level of detail is retained. Susan Davis 17:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's exactly what happened with the Eureka Seven summary; although it's starting to get to the point where "summary" doesn't fit the description. Magus Melchior 01:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Eureka Seven is not the article to emulate. I would suggest reading Try to emulate Excel Saga or Planetes. I would also suggest creating a Simoun media and release information page over an episode page. That way you can relegate theme songs, CDs, manga, and other mainly list-oriented items to that page. The article is heavy on primary sources, but has no secondary sources or reception of the work in Japan, etc.. That should be added, if possible. (Such things are often difficult to find.)

Now.. if the episodes and other media info is gone, it should help a bit with the size of the article. The plot section could easily be thinned a bit by consulting with this guideline on writing on fiction. The plot is a bit unencyclopedic: "Paraietta, still feeling the horror of what she'd done, lingers in her search area before heading to meet with Neviril's team..." ..."By chance, Yun, with her memorial basket for Mamiina,"... plot lines are never "chance" happenings--they're meticiouosly planned. --Kunzite 02:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly nearly all of the summary is in-universe, which the guideline discourages. How would you write the "unencyclopedic" portions in question? Magus Melchior 05:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it says summaries are the exception. -- Ned Scott 06:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Not in this case. Summaries are "are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article." I would take the hedge clippers to the whole thing and remove some of the overly detailed plot. I don't know the show well enough to do this, though. --Kunzite 00:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

After taking a second look at the article I'd have to agree with you. -- Ned Scott 06:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

One of the reasons we did it on Eureka Seven is because we knew that fans would insist on writing a great amount of detail. In a way, the plot summary article is like a sacrifice to keep the main article relatively free of cruft. Then, after the series is over, and fans have "cooled off", we have all the cruft rounded up in one spot (granted there is likely to be good stuff left over in that article, it just makes the whole thing easier). -- Ned Scott 06:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, people, you made many good suggestions, but this ain't getting us anywhere. Meanwhile, the article is whopping 50 Kb big. So, let me sum up what you said a bit... We all agreed that we need to split the article and following subarticles were suggested:

• Plot summary of Simoun (which includes the anime and, at some point, the mangas and abides to the guidelines)
• List of Simoun episodes / Simoun media and release information (the former is easier to start, while the latter needs some extra research)
• List of Simoun characters, Simoun (mecha) (nobody expressed any particular interest in these ones)
• Category:Simoun (this is just to hold them together)

IMO it's not relevant whether our plot summary article will mimic the E7 one or Planetes. At first, we should just cut&paste the current plot section over there and let Susan do whatever she pleases with it (she has made good efforts so far). We can always come back to that issue later, when it comes to artistic and encyclopedic quality at some point. As for the episodes, I support the Simoun media and release information suggestion (see also Excel prototype). --Koveras 10:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We might want to consider a trimming of some plot type stuff, as suggested above, before splitting that section (or doing the cut and paste to a sandbox page first). We could also probably use the list of episodes to dump some of the more detailed info that isn't needed for the over-all plot summary, if anyone wants to keep said info. -- Ned Scott 06:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Right then, here is the plan: Ned, you trim and compact the plot summary (because I don't want to spoil myself anything yet) and, maybe, Susan would like to join your efforts. Meanwhile, Kunzite should start the media and release info article by copying the episode list over there or something. I'll do the Simoun (mecha) part with Ri Maajons and all. Magus, you can help me with Ri Maajons, if you are interested. Once that's done, someone should start the cat. And what about a separate character list, should we do it or not? 'Cuz I believe we should. In any case, any reasonable objections or other suggestions are welcome, of course. :) --Koveras 10:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind the spoilers, but I'm a bit behind in the plot. I'll see what I can do to help out, though. -- Ned Scott 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't I trim the plot, then? I wrote most of the early part of the plot section, and can make the rest of it match that level of detail. I'll try to get to it later tonight or tomorrow. Susan Davis 20:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Susan Davis 04:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Good stuff, Susan. Magus Melchior 06:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks a lot neater now. I'm impressed. :) As it is now, it may well be left within the main article, I think. Plus, we have completed the mecha article part of the plan. Which leaves us with media and release information (Kunzite has disappeared, and we haven't heard of him since, so we'll have to do it ourselves) and the character list, on the subject of which I still haven't heard any opinions. --Koveras 15:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll volunteer for media and release info, since I've already done a lot of the research out of personal interest. Just give me a couple of days to get it collated. SimonB NZ 16:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. :) --Koveras ^☭ 10:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Simoun media is done; episode list and theme song details have been moved. I've also created Category:Simoun (anime), which for some reason I can't seem to link to directly (I really, really wanted to call it Simoun, but seeing that's a dab I didn't think that was justifiable). So it's time to reconsider what's left: I'd vote for splitting the Plot Summary out into its own article, since (a) there's enough material there to justify it, (b) it'll probably be much easier to structure (e.g. by arc) in an article of its own, and (c) as others have noted it's the most spoilerific / in-universe section. Just my 2円... SimonB NZ 15:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Simoun media seems a rather odd place to put the episode list. By the Principle of Least Surprise, it should either come back here, or wind up as its own page. Susan Davis 15:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I was following the lead of Excel Saga there - if it's going to move, I'd favour a separate article rather than bringing it back (just trying to keep the size down, plus a separate article would fit better in the List of episodes category). SimonB NZ 20:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't you like Kunzite's naming suggestion for the article? --Koveras ^☭ 08:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:ANIME recommends "List of ... media", so I followed that for consistency. SimonB NZ 04:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ri Maajons

Does anyone have some kind of Ri Maajon listing? There are so many of them, it's hard to remember them all... I can recall following:

• Dandelion Ri Mājon (no visible effect?)
• Diamond Ri Maajon (the protective spherical shield)
• Emerald Ri Maajon (the one that got Amuria killed)
• Funeral Ri Maajon (no visible effect)
• Iron Ri Maajon (the Dios Power-like one-hit-kill)

Anyone knows some more? There is also the conical helix Ri Maajon seen in the end of ep. 12, but it's unnamed AFAIR... Oh, and I haven't yet got past that ep12, so please, please don't spoil me anything. %) --Koveras 13:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are the ones that I could see/hear up to episode 12:

In episode 1 (also in the opening animation and many others), the first Ri Mājon we see is the Peregrine Falcon (Hayabusa) Ri Mājon, the standard Simoun combat Ri Mājon. Another is the Shark (Same) Ri Mājon.

In episode 4, Aaeru and Morinas attempt the Ray (Ei) Ri Mājon, but fail because Morinas couldn't keep up.

In episode 5, the Silver Ri Mājon makes an appearance; this is the Ri Mājon that inspired Limone to become a sibylla, but she pulled it off successfully with Aaeru's help. It's similar in appearance to the Diamond Ri Mājon, but with more degrees of symmetry. Its destructive potential is similar to the Iron Ri Mājon with fewer Simouns, but this one is harder to execute, even for seasoned sibyllae.

The funeral Ri Mājon seen in episode 9 is called the Cemetery (Reien) Ri Mājon.
24.4.105.240 05:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I've been itching to put a listing in the article somewhere, but the article's getting pretty big... 24.4.105.240 05:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool! Thank you very much, 24.4.105.240. Btw, you should probably register here, editors like you are always needed on Pedia. :) As for the problem of size, it's actually a real issue now... --Koveras 19:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Got tired of just signing everything with my IP address... Magus Melchior 04:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Very good. Then, here is the updated list of Ri Maajons seen up to ep12:

• Cemetery (Reien) Ri Mājon (no visible effect)
• Dandelion Ri Mājon (no visible effect?)
• Diamond Ri Maajon (the protective spherical shield)
• Emerald Ri Maajon (the one that got Amuria killed)
• Iron Ri Maajon (the Dios Power-like one-hit-kill)
• Peregrine Falcon (Hayabusa) Ri Mājon (standard Simoun weapon)
• Ray (Ei) Ri Mājon (Aaeru and Morinas attempt it in ep4)　エイ（鱏）is tranlated by "Batoidea"
• Shark (Same) Ri Mājon (another standard weapon)
• Silver Ri Mājon (Limone's signature Ri Maajon, similar to Diamond)

As I said above, we probably should start a Simoun (mecha) article and put the list there. It'll also be good for taking excessive load off the main article. --Koveras 10:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the Kongoseki (Diamond, episode 9), Hatou (Raging Sea, episodes 7, 16, and 20), Kaishou (Tsunami, episode 7), and Kyoei (Vanity, episode 16). There's a list, including original Japanese characters, in the Simoun Fans fansub style guide at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Simoun ; I'll try to upload an updated draft within a day or two. And we have the "Reien" as "Dennen" -- Ri Maajon of the Fields. Susan Davis 17:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Woops, okay, I do see the Kongoseki there; sorry. But the Suzu (Bell, episode 4) is missing, too. Dandelion is "Tampopo", Silver is "Gin", and Emerald is of course "Suigyoku". Susan Davis 17:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with "Start a Simoun (mecha) article" okay. DVD release in Japan at August 25, some of misfotrune wrong image improved on the DVD film(datum) image.... Someone start Simoun (mecha article) soon! But I'm not native tongue English user no match for main article.... By the way

• "Ei" Ri-Mājon (Aaeru and Morinas attempt it in ep4) called「エイ」（ 鱏 is KANJI）is tranlated by "Batoidea"
• "Suzu" has two meanings " The bell is「鈴(Suzu)」" / " Tin is stannum(atomic number:50/Sn) called「錫(Suzu)」" .

But I can think "Silver Ri-Maajion" compared to "Tin Ri-Maajion". -Yui from Okinawa August 26-

Thank you very much for your work, Yui. :) Maybe, you could register an account here, too? :) --Koveras 13:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've started the Simoun (mecha) article. There are some Japanese names and descriptions of Ri Maajons that are missing (I don't have them), so someone is to add them yet... Magus, Yui, are you still with me on the task? :) EDITED: Oh, and a nice large picture of a flying Simoun would be more than welcome. %) --Koveras 15:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that's a good start to the article; a couple of things I'll correct and expand in the meantime ;) Magus Melchior 03:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Or is that Ri Mājon?

A couple of stylistic questions since we're not consistent across the article:

1. Ri Mājon or Ri Maajon? The former is more prevalent, but doesn't follow WP:MOS-JA (and reading the history there the last thing we want to do is revive the Great Macron Debate). The guidelines do state "Macrons should be used in all cases outside of those specifically mentioned below", but doesn't our usage fall squarely under point 1? Same for ī/ii - I don't see any evidence that we're a special case, but if we are then we should (a) explain why to avoid anyone else asking this question, and (b) be consistent.
2. Ri M...jon or Ri M...jons? This is trickier. WP:MOS-JA#EWoJo basically says don't use snob plurals but go with the most prevalent usage among English speakers. There's an out, in that we can default to Japanese style (romanise the plural rather than pluralise the romanisation) "where English-language speakers are often familiar with Japanese word usage". Is this such a case? It's not like there's a standard English way of handling this word, and arguably it's not even a native Japanese word (except I assume - need to verify this - that if Ri Maajon is ever mentioned in the plural in the anime they'll keep it the same).

I have a definite POV here: anyone who asks "who'd win in a fight, pirates or ninjas?" deserves the Whirling Shuriken of Death. Pluralising the romanisation only seems justifiable to me where the romanisation is truly a loan word - in this case we're quoting (pseudo-)Japanese direct from source. So my POV isn't wholly aesthetic. What do other people think? One Ri Maajon, two Ri Maajon? (Actually, I wonder if this isn't a wider problem that should be raised on WP:MOS-JA itself - should the guidelines there be expanded to give some minimally sensible advice on what do if there is no accepted English plural form? However I'm guessing this has come up before, so I'll start small.) SimonB NZ 16:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(Slight cleanup) SimonB NZ 08:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Ri Mājon is neater, but Ri Maajon is easier to type. So I don't have a definite opinion on the topic. :) As for the plurals, I think that "Ri Maajons" us OK, while "Simouns" is not. %) --Koveras ^☭ 10:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the English language fansub uses "Ri Maajons" and "Simoun" as the plurals. "Ri Maajons" in the plural tends to be avoided in favour of "Ri Maajon" as a collective noun, but in places where "Ri Maajons" is used in the plural, it takes an 's'. The fansub uses "aa" instead of "ā" for technical reasons involving the subtitle software, but Wikipedia provides a link below the edit box where you can easily enter an 'ā', so that's not such a big deal. (Interestingly, there has never been a need for a plural of "dux.") Susan Davis 13:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the lack of a macron in fansubs is more likely a lack of macron vowels in the font files available. The subtitle software (assuming it's VSFilter) can handle UTF-8, so Unicode text like Ā would be no problem, provided the font in use had that in its character set.

My take on the macron use is that if the vowel is elongated phonetically, a macron is appropriate (actually, nevermind). As for pluralisation, well, there's admittedly some inconsistency across several articles that may need to be brought up to the MOS:JA. Perhaps also with definite articles on proper nouns (but that's another issue altogether). Magus Melchior 15:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, looks like "Ri Maajons" wins by virtue of precedent (and I agree, "Simouns" sounds horrible - I wonder why?). For macrons, however, I don't think our preferences or the subs count: WP:ANIME says "thou shalt follow WP:MOS-JA" and WP:MOS-JA says "thou shalt write long vowels aa, ii, ū, ee, ō". True, these are guidelines, but I think we should comply unless there's a compelling reason not. Anyone disagree? SimonB NZ 06:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't say that -- it says that the Revised Hepburn is to be used. If you follow the link to that page, which has more information than the short summary at WP:MOS-JA, it clearly states that "ā", "ī", and "ē" are to be used to represent long vowels formed by with a katakana "ー", which is the case for Ri Mājon. (I mistakenly re-romanized everything to "aa", "ii", and "ee" at one point in the article's history based on the same misreading of WP:MOS-JA, but changed it back after reading Hepburn_romanization.) Susan Davis 07:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I was about to quibble that WP:MOS-JA says "Wikipedia uses the version of Revised Hepburn romanisation described below" (emphasis added), then lays out the aa, ii, ū, ee, ō guideline under point 1. But I've just realised that you're right anyway, because we're concerned with katakana (point 2 in the list). So Ri Mājon and Erī are what we should standardise on. Thanks for sorting out my confusion - I'll go fix the inconsistencies as penance. SimonB NZ 08:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, done. I don't think we should touch Aaeru or Mamiina, since those spellings are consistent and well-established; but I did change Erii since we already had Erī under Characters. SimonB NZ 09:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Latin terms

How about listing all the Latin terms and names used in the series somewhere in the article? Like Simulacrum, Sybil, Auriga, etc. --Koveras 12:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually we had one to begin with, but it was expunged per TheFarix's "fancruft" comments under Cleanup. There's an EL to the full glossary, so my feeling is that within the article we should only give the briefest descriptions necessary to make the text comprehensible. This is a special case of that fact that we're still carrying way too much in-universe stuff contrary to WP:WAF, as discussed under Splitting. Don't get me wrong, I think there's some great material here, but clearly a brutal cleanup is in order: the last thing we should be doing right now is making that job harder. SimonB NZ 08:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Characters

Should Vyura be listed under "Chor Tempest?" Or would that be too much of a spoiler? Susan Davis 09:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Too much of a spoiler, IMO - plus it might confuse anyone who (despite the warnings) reads this article before watching the series. SimonB NZ 04:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I've just noticed that we list the characters under the common romanisations of their names, but sort by strict transliteration (e.g. Alti/Aruti, Limone/Rimone). Should we sort by heading to avoid the appearance of being out of order? SimonB NZ 04:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Susan Davis 22:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Onashia really Dominura then? They were both in Chor Dextera, yet while Dominura is still female and able to fly a Simoun, Onashia has been running the spring for presumably a long time now and has turned all sparkly. Dominura is now in the past and started developing sparklies so..? Shiroi Hane 23:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a lively discussion of this over in the AnimeSuki forum. It's ambiguous at best, and in theory anyone who doesn't choose a sex should begin to develop the disorder in time. Whether Aaeru and Neviril's improved version of the Suigyoku moving them out of normal time has made them immune to this is a nice question, as is whether Limone and Dominura subsequently manage the same thing... or if the two ever wind up going to the Spring. Presumably, The shapes of their faces are fairly similar, and both are tall, but Onashia is even taller than Dominura. Hmm, not that I recall ever actually seeing the two of them side-by-side. Yun should also contract the disorder eventually, unless she gives up her office and enters the Spring. Susan Davis 00:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Argentine language

Anyone else notice that the Argentines (well, the head-of-state midway through episode 26) speak reversed Japanese? The usual order of phrases is reversed for the Argentine VA dialogue, and the whole thing is reversed through a sound editor. Magus Melchior 08:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The speaker in episode 26 was Plumbish, not Argentine. Is the Argentine dialogue from the earlier episodes also reversed? Susan Davis 22:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)