Talk:Shinto shrine

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2019 and 1 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AquaSodaBubbles.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 June 2021 and 1 August 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tuh20608. Peer reviewers: Jameststurner, Lilybillow.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

This article has been renamed from Jinja (Shinto) to Shinto shrine as the result of a move request.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Shinto shrine. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 07:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Jinja (Shinto) → Shinto shrine — Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Furthermore, Shinto does not use the term jinja and the list of shrines are under the tilte List of Shinto shrines. Kusunose 05:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

1. Support as nominator. --Kusunose 05:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Support and this name left taisha in limbo anyway. Dekimasu 07:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Support — Use English names.--Endroit 08:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A gaijin enquires

Shinto shrines do not have "a place for propagation"? You mean a bed? Something has gone wrong in this translation!Writtenright 22:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Writtenright

"Propagation" means "spreading the faith." See meaning b at Merriam-Webster. For an example of usage, see the article Society for the Propagation of the Faith. It may not be the exact word, but it's a lot more plausible than a bed. Fg2 02:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Would "proselytize" be better in the two places the article uses "propagate"? Whogue 00:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if it means proselytize, it should be changed. I just came to read this article and was going to leave a comment asking what in the blazes 'propogate' means in this context. I didn't think it had anything to do with reproducing, but that's how I first understood it so I was seriously confused. This usage of the term 'propogate' seems rather arcane and most readers are not going to get 'proselytize' out of it (I sure didn't). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.76.163 (talk) 23:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Please Help with Shinto Editing Wiki Page Chozusha

See Chozusha. Thanks in advance!--Sean-Jin 22:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Article title: Shinto shrine (no macron)

The word "Shinto" is English; it's in Merriam-Webster and Oxford with no macron. "Shintō" is the properly romanized form of the Japanese word but it is not English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use English words states, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form." We should therefore use the English word "Shinto" (with no macron) in the article title and body text. Fg2 (talk) 22:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

About the article

I would like to junk almost the entire article and rewrite it from scratch because most of the material it contains now is I think unusable. Does anybody disagree? urashimataro (talk) 06:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend creating one someplace like User:Urashimataro/Shinto shrine, then posting a note here once you are done with it. That will allow people to compare them and offer suggestions or comments. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Note: I would keep the list of national treasures, which is valuable. Besides, if you forge the lists, little of the original is left already. Nothing much would be lost. urashimataro (talk) 06:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

All of those Japanese ideographs add nothing to the article, and should be deleted en masse, and replaced with a phonetic description of each the sounds, and each of them should have an etymology whenever and wherever possible. 216.99.219.59 (talk) 00:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Types of shrine

In the first part of the article I say:

This single English term however translates several, not always equivalent Japanese words, including jinja (神社, jinja) as in Yasukuni Jinja, yashiro (社, yashiro) as in Tsubaki Ōkami Yashiro, miya (宮, miya) as in Watarai no Miya, -gū (宮, -gū) as in Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū, jingū (神宮, jingū) as in Meiji Jingū, taisha (大社, taisha) as in Izumo Taisha and hokora/hokura (神庫) or mori (杜, mori?) as in the case of some special shrine buildings.

I do not specify the differences between the names because I do not know what they are with certainty. I know that a jungu enshrines an imperial family member but can't reference this fact reliably. If someone knows something about this, a paragraph on the subject would be much needed. urashimataro (talk) 05:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The photo of Moto Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū shrine

The photo of Moto Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū shrine is thought that this image is improper to represent the Shinto shrine.

Please let me hear the reason to which the image of the oldest Shinto shrine (national treasure of Japan) in Japan that is the image that I arranged and the image of the Shinto shrine of World Heritage are improper. --663highland (talk) 07:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I chose this image specifically because it consists of just the two elements that are necessary to a Shinto shrine: a shinden and a torii. It completes the description to its left and is part of it. This is why it's preferable to the photo of a great shrine. Please read the introduction, and you will see what I mean.

urashimataro (talk) 08:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If it is such a reason, do not you think that Image:Tosa-jinja01s3872.jpg is appropriate than Image:Moto-Hachiman-the-whole-temple.jpg?--663highland (talk) 08:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• See User talk:Urashimataro#The photo of Moto Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū shrine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 663highland (talk • contribs) 00:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

commodities

I was wondering what kind of stuff there is to do at a Shinto jinja shrine. Is it true that they sell fortunes, talismans, prayers, and purifications? If not, how does the shrine owner make money? Thankyou. Jecowa (talk) 04:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Yes, it's true. All these things are on sale, and the shrine does make money selling them. The faithful also make donations, and pay for having kami transferred in objects they own. See Kanjō urashimataro (talk) 04:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

-I agree, there should be more about what one generally *does* at a Shinto shrine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.90.201 (talk) 06:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization of "shrine" in title

The common noun "shrine" should not be capitalized; neither "church" nor "temple" is. Only specific ones are capitalized; this article is not about a specific shrine. The Catholic Church is capitalized as an institution, not as a building. If there is or were to be an article on Catholic churches, "churches" would not be capitalized. So a lowercase "s" for "shrine" is analogous to churches and temples. Fg2 (talk) 10:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted and edit by Muriemon. The edit summary here justifies the deletion of one sentence and its explicit, verifying inline citation with an assertion — "not fact"?

The cited support is in German —

Hachiman ist eine der einflussreichsten japanischen Gottheiten und verfügt über ein Netzwerk von etwa 25.000 in ganz Japan verteilten Zweigschreinen. Er wurde ursprünglich in Kyushu (im Usa Hachiman-gū) verehrt, aber schon in der Nara- und Heian-Zeit verlagerte sich das Zentrum seines Kults zuerst nach Nara, dann nach Kyoto (Iwashimizu Hachiman-gū). Die Hachiman Schreine von Usa und Kyoto gelten daher als die Hauptschreine Hachimans. Noch populärer und historisch ebenso bedeutsam ist jedoch der Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū in Kamakura ... und u.a. für einen über 700 Jahre alten Ginkgo Baum bekannt.

This is a rough Google-translated version of the German text —

Hachiman is one of the most influential Japanese deities and has a network of about 25,000 shrines throughout Japan distributed in class. He was originally in Kyushu (in the Usa Hachiman-gū) worshiped, but already in the Nara and Heianera shifted the center of his cult at first to Nara, then to Kyoto (Iwashimizu Hachiman-gū). The Usa Hachiman shrines of Kyoto and are therefore considered as the main Hachiman shrines. Even more popular and historically as important, however, the Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū in Kamakura ... and include a 700-year-old ginkgo tree known.

The Austrian web site is wrong about the tree -- see here. I hope the tree does survive, despite being uprooted in March here. With regret, I have to accept that this ancient ginkgo tree no longer lives; but otherwise, the disputed paragraph is correct.

This revert is informed by WP:V which explains, The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. In this instance, the revert is not inconsistent with WP:RS. The site's relationship with Institut für Ostasienkunde der Universität Wien (Institute of East Asian Studies at the University of Vienna) seems relevant. --Tenmei (talk) 15:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the revert. The site was written by Bernhard Scheid, who isn't just anybody. He is a Japanologist of worldwide reputation. If Muriemon wants to delete this sentence he'd better support his decision with facts.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I have re-written the disputed sentence narrowly here. In my view, this version more closely mirrors the cited text. In addition, I created Bernhard Scheid to help clarify credibility of the academic website source. I hope this helps move towards a constructive resolution of any unstated issues. --Tenmei (talk) 03:15, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

1,000,000,000,000 shrines

The article says: There are estimated to be about 1,000,000,000,000 shrines in Japan. Can this possibly be correct, or is it mischief that's come in under the radar? That would be quite a lot of shrines per capita. It's sourced to Breen, but no page number, so I was hoping someone more familiar with the article might be able to check more easily what the correct number should be. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. There are about 80,000+ Shinto shrines in Japan. --Ansei (talk) 20:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Useful link for overseas shinto shrines

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/3002 151.41.157.8 (talk) 14:19, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Shrines withIn Buddhist temples

After an email exchange with a monk at Kenchōji, a major temple in Kamakura, I am convinced a distinction between independent Shintō shrines and shrines at Buddhist temples is necessary. In an article I had called the two shrines the temple owns "Shinto shrines". He replied that indeed the temple owns two shrines, but that they have nothing to do with Shintō. What he meant is that they are dedicated to kami worship, and have nothing to do with the institution of Shintō. He was very firm about this.

I am aware that this distinction would be independent research, and this is why I only write a note. But Wikipedia deserves food for thought. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Emoji

I would like ⛩️ to be redirected to this page, but I'd rather not create an account just to do so.94.175.234.132 (talk) 11:16, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

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Inquiring about the addition of current role of shrines in society and miko

Hello! I have been doing some research for a class project about editing Wikipedia and I have been tasked with reading through this article and seeing what information can be edited into, out of, or just adjusted in order to better represent the subject in a level and thorough view. From what I have observed, I believe this article would benefit greatly from having a segment detailing the role shrines play in current Japanese society such as festivals surrounding any given ritual or time of year. Furthermore, a small segment about the shrine maidens would likely help balance out the details of those who work at the shrine daily to conduct rites of worship and daily with the segment about the priests, given their prominent history and prevalence at these shrines. AquaSodaBubbles (talk) 17:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

New student editor

Hello! I am a student who has been given the opportunity to edit and work on a Wikipedia article, and decided on this one. In my class we are discussing the destruction of images and structures, and in this article I have noticed that it is not discussed and was wondering if the inclusion of a section on the destruction of Shinto shrines would be okay to write about? I also have noticed that this article contains a lot of information, and goes further into detail in certain areas of the writing when it isn't necessary. I was wondering if it would be okay to edit the articles length, take out a lot of excess detailing, and rearrange the article so that it has some sort of flow. Thank you!Tuh20608 (talk) 02:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Tuh20608, welcome! All of those would be good things to do, but before you launch into a major re-structuring I'd start with some smaller edits, for example adding a section or removing superfluous wording, to build up experience. Make sure that when you add material you always accompany it with in-line citations, and that your facts come not from your own personal knowledge but from reliable published sources. That is important. Adding citations can seem a bit tricky at first, but if you make an effort in good faith other editors will often be happy to come along and sort out any beginner errors. When you are ready to do something more substantial, such as re-structuring the article, it would be a good idea to explain your proposals on the talk page first, to make sure that other editors don't disagree with your general course of action.

By the way, new queries normally go right at the bottom of the talk page, in a new section - which is where they get most visibility. I've moved your query down to the bottom for that reason. Welcome again, and have fun! MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

New student editor Shinto shrine edits

Hi. I have finished the edits to the article. I took out certain sections that I didn't think would be necessary. I excluded the section on The Arrival of Buddhism, but I could easily keep it in. I also have reorganized the article so that the information would flow a tad better. I took out a lot of information, tried to fix the grammatical errors, and make it less wordy. In the edits that I have done in my sandbox, I have condensed the Early Origins section down so that it wasn't broken up into multiple sections. I also put the section on architecture and structure together, but broke them both down into two sub sections, and included them after the section on Early Origins. After that, I edited re-enshrinement, and the destruction of shrines. Everything else I excluded, but could still keep up? Thank you. Tuh20608 (talk) 00:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Tuh20608, Hi! I noticed your two messages on talk, and wanted to welcome you. I really value student editors here and it's great that you are reaching out. When I read your first message in July, I was impressed with the fact that you chose Shinto shrine as a topic for your class on Destroying images-Iconoclasm -- I get it! I'll look over the edits in your sandbox in the next week or so, and compare them to what is already in the article, and leave you some feedback. When does the semester end for you? Best regards, Netherzone (talk) 00:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi! My semester actually ends today, but I am going to continue the coursework until the start of the fall semester. Tuh20608 (talk) 02:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Tuh20608, you made some really huge edits, and altho boldness is appreciated, it's sometimes good to discuss beforehand. Don't be surprised if some of the edits are reverted. I don't have time to look into the removals right now, but I did notice that some of your edits introduced errors, and others removed citations to reliable sources. Were there factual errors? I am also wondering if you use the Preview feature beforehand to check your edits before publishing, and also why you decided to remove sources (references). Was there a problem with them? Netherzone (talk) 02:30, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Netherzone, the August 3 edits by Tuh20608 are very concerning in just how extensive and deletion-heavy they are, especially given their unilateral nature. More concerning is the fact that more than a month has passed since your last message and Tuh20608 hasn't responded in any way, nor have they been active since then. My editing experience on this site is admittedly very sporadic, but it's been ingrained to me by past precedent that such major changes aren't supposed to happen without sufficient discussion where valid justifications for them are provided. In the continued absence of such justification, I feel it's quite justifiable to restore all of the deleted info. MarqFJA87 (talk) 22:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello MarqFJA87 thank you for your message here. This issue dropped off my radar screen as my job kicked into high gear at the beginning of September, I'm grateful for your reminder and to hear your thoughts. The changes by Tuh0608 seemed very problematic to me, and as you mention they have not responded in 2 months. I doubt they will be back but I'm adding a courtesy ping. I'd suggest reverting the edits if you are comfortable doing so. If you'd rather I do that, please ping me and let me know. Thank you again. Netherzone (talk) 22:20, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I would love to, Netherzone, although I'll admit that I've never tried to undo every edit since the earliest problematic one and then manually redo the ones that were made after all the problematic ones, given that the last apparently counting as "intervening edits" (thus preventing me from simply undoing Tuh0608's edits alone). I could give it a try as long as you'll excuse any hopefully minor errors in my attempt. MarqFJA87 (talk) 22:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

MarqFJA87 I've restored the article to the version before the student editor arrived. You are right, it would have been extremely complex and time consuming to try to do it manually. There were a few edits after the student's sweeping deletions; these may have been attempts to correct what the student had deleted. If you wouldn't mind looking through those other editors edits, and I will do the same, to see if there is content that we should restore to the article. Thanks again for the heads up, and nice to meet you here. Netherzone (talk) 22:48, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Interpreting_shrine_names redirect doesn't work

Interpreting_shrine_names redirect, in the last line of the first paragraph, doesn't work; as the article does not have such a section at all.

It works now see Shinto shrine#Interpreting_shrine_names but I added an anchor just in case someone changes the name again. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)