Talk:Shenandoah, Pennsylvania

Soledad O'Brien Report

I may use http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/12/16/latino.in.america.ch.4/index.html as a source and fill out this article at some point. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Good idea! I took your advice and added the Soledad O'Brien piece as an external link to the article.Krauq (talk) 20:39, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Deleting history piece about Luis Ramirez fatal beating

After much thought, here are my comments on the inclusion of the Ramirez beating incident in the Wikipedia article on Shenandoah history.

I don’t think it’s appropriate to mention these events, as shocking and awful as they are, as part of the history of the Borough of Shenandoah. They seem too topical, more in the line of current news than under the broad category of history. Views and opinions on this highly-charged piece ought to be discussed in a blog.

While the racially-motivated fatal beating of Luis Ramirez in July 2008 seems undisputed according to news accounts, those charges were not proven in the Schuylkill County Court. And while there seems to be strong evidence brought by the Justice Department that the Shenandoah Police Department covered up their investigation into the beating of Ramirez and may have obstructed justice in this case, these are still unproven allegations that are pending in a court of law. Similarly, there are pending allegations against the police and the Borough of Shenandoah in the alleged police beating in November 2004 of 18-year-old David Vega, a Hispanic, and making it look like he committed suicide in the Shenandoah jail.

I think this piece is biased against all the inhabitants of Shenadoah, while these brutal acts may have been the actions of just a group of teenagers and high school students and a police coverup. Or, if these events reflect the sentiment of a larger part of the town’s population, I believe the town has been thoroughly shamed by the extensive local and national news coverage given this story; Pennsylvania Governor Rendell’s interest in the case; and by the recent federal grand jury charges made public on December 15, 2009. Since two of Ramirez’s attackers, Piekarsky and Donchak, were already acquitted of ethnic intimidation in state court, there is also the possibility that the doctrine of double jeopardy may prevent a similar prosecution against them for a hate crime in the federal courts. There are, of course, federal charges against Donchak for obstruction of justice that are pending.

These events are certainly disturbing and it smells like there’s something rotten in the Borough of Shenandoah. But entering this information into a Wikipedia article on the town’s history seems inappropriate. The proper forum to address these alleged wrongdoings is in the court system, which is now in process, in a blog, or in the community or educational system of Shenandoah. Educational workshops on tolerance are available, such as on the Southern Poverty Law Center website, http://www.tolerance.org/. Programs such as this ought to be integrated into the curriculum of the Shenandoah educational system.

It is my sense that this town is at the boilig point and adding this piece to Wikipedia only adds to the tension. Its Chief of Police is now in jail following a federal magistrate’s bail denial, and three other Shenandoah police are on house arrest pending the outcome of the grand jury charges filed against them. I suggest this piece about the Ramirez beating be left out of this Wikipedia article. When the various federal criminal and other civil trials (in the Vega case and the Murphy case) have been concluded, it may then be appropriate to mention this if there are convictions.

At the very least, the piece needs to be factually corrected. The statement in the article, “Six people, including four police officers, were indicted in the beating of Ramirez on December 15, 2009” is factually wrong. In point of fact, five people, including three police officers, were charged on December 15, 2009 on criminal charges related to the beating of Ramirez. In addition, a fourth policeman, as well as the police chief, were indicted on extortion charges related to illegal gambling in Shenandoah.Krauq (talk) 04:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Though this is a sensitive subject and still open to different interpretations, the fact is that the only reason most people will seek out information about Shenadoah is because of the Ramirez incident. Perhaps it doesn't belong in the "History" section, but is belongs somewhere in the article. Leaving it out is only ignoring the fact that something sad and unflattering to the community occurred and is academically dishonest. I re-inserted the section but did tag it as "Current Event".Wkharrisjr (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply to: User:Wkharrisjr Your reasoning for re-insering this section is flawed, to say the least. The fact is, even though Shenandoah may only be a small town, people would have a variety of reasons to visit the page. The page exsisted and was edited, from time to time, prior to this event. This town has terrible stories like all towns, should other murders, arsons, robberies, ect. be included here. If I visit other town or city pages, I find no "current events" section. Your sense of "academic dishonesty" should prohibit you from holding one page to a different standard than other pages found on this site. I see a history of people tring to advance an agenda on this page after the event in question.

I assume this is the person who has been removing the section about the Rameriez incident (Please sign you posts as noted below so we can keep track of who is who). I added the "current event' template to the section. Feel free to change the article heading to something you think is more appropriate, but don't continue to remove the article because you don't like the storty. Just becasue other town article doesn't include negative information doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in other articles. In fact, please feel free to add this information (properly cited, of course) to any article you think needs it.Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I assume this is the person who has been inserting the section about the Rameriez incident. I see you added the "current event' template to the section, however this really does not address the issue. Just becasue you want to include negative "current events" doesn't mean they should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 21:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why it should not be included. The Rameriez incident is news that was reported beyond the borders of Schuylkill County and thus noteable. If you are uncomfortable about associating the incident with Shenadoah, how about creating a seperate article and linking it to Shenadoah?Wkharrisjr (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It is clear why it should not be listed here. If the requirement for posting was simply that the event be reported beyond the borders of Schuylkill County then a number of events would be listed here and many other town or city pages, in error. If you want to dwell on this sad incident and see it listed on this site you should create a seperate article and link it to Shenandoah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Clearly your view and my view of what should be included in Wikipedia are at opposite poles and cannot be resloved in this forum. I suggest we take this to arbitration. Agreed? Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Reply to: User:Wkharrisjr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 19:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Tagging the Ramirez incident as "Current Event" is a good idea; however, I don't see that tag in the article. Could you please insert it? Krauq (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Response to Third Opinion Request:

Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Shenandoah, Pennsylvania and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: In my opinion this issue is settled by Wikipedia policy. WP:NPOV says in its WP:UNDUE section: An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. My opinion is that it should not be mentioned at all unless other significant events in the town's history are to be noted and, even then, it should be limited to a one– or two–sentence brief summary. Point #4 in WP:NOTNEWS also applies here.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 21:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree this news event should not be included on this page and I feel it would be more appropriate on Wikinews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Origins of the name

Wikipedia editors state that a citation is needed for this part of the article on Shenandoah. However, that may be problematic because the source of that text is ostensibly copyrighted. The Wiki text is almost word-for-word a copy of that supposedly copyrighted text.

The Wiki text in question reads:

The origin of the name Shenandoah is much debated. One theory holds that Shenandoah received its name from an Indian word meaning "sprucy stream" or "river flowing alongside high hills and mountains." Another origin theory is that the town was named after the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. The Virginia valley in turn took its name from the Indian word meaning "daughter of the skies."[citation needed]

Although no citation is given here, the URL for this source is already listed at the bottom of this Wiki article as an External Link, namely:

· Indian names; The origin of the name Shenandoah from Schuylkill County History,

The URL linked to this External Link is the following web page on rootsweb.com, which is accessible:

        http://www.rootsweb.com/~paschuyl/HSSC/indian.html 

The text on this rootsweb.com page reads, in part:

The origin of the name Shenandoah is a much debated one. One theory holds that Shenandoah is an Indian word meany "sprucy stream" or "river flowing alongside high hills and mountains." Another insists that Jacob Oliver Roads named Shenadoah after the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia where he had coal interests. The origin of the Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, is Indian, of course, and means "daughter of the skies."...

On the rootsweb.com page, it indicates that the above text was excerpted from the following publication:

Excerpted from VOL. VI No. 1, Publications of the Historical Society of Schuylkill County (1947), by Herrwood E. Hobbs”

The rootsweb.com page further indicates that:

“All information is copyrighted and sole property of HSSC” [hyperlink=mailto:llward@voicenet.com]

Can the quoted text of the Wiki article on "Origins of the name" be a verbatim copy of the text from the rootsweb.com page, if the HSSC copyright is valid? If the answer to that question is 'yes you can!' -- then why not just insert a citation to the rootsweb.com page in the main body of this Wiki article rather than list it at the bottom of the article as an External link?

Krauq (talk) 02:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

External links not displayed

External links are not displayed in article now. What happened? The links are still listed in edit mode, but won't display. Needs to be fixed.Krauq (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thomas O'Neil citation

Several times an editor has added:

Thomas F O’Neill- author and columnist winner of the national heartwarmers award and the power of purpose award.

to the "Notable natives and residents" of this article. There is no citation for this entry and I can find no independent source for Thomas O'Neil or any of these awards. Please provide either a reputable citation or do not continue to make this entry. Thank you.Wkharrisjr (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

COI / Requested Edit

COI / Requested Edit

I have a COI that precludes me from making this addition, and would like to request an uninvolved editor consider adding to the list of Notable People the following: Ted Twardzik, Sr. - founder of Mrs. T's Pierogies the world’s largest producer of pierogis [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Thanks - LavaBaron (talk) 20:32, 30 July 2015 (UTC) Actually there is no claim in those refs about the "world's largest" anything. Smallbones(smalltalk) 04:18, 2 August 2015 (UTC) Thanks, Smallbones - I think this was a remnant from the prior iteration of the Mrs. T's article ... struck-out. LavaBaron (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)  Not done Altho there are copious sources about the notable company, the only source you listed that is substantially about its founder is a notice about a speaking date he had. That is not enough to show notability. It is not uncommon that notable companies have non notable officers. See WP:INHERIT. John from Idegon (talk) 21:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC) makes sense; thanks for the fast reply, John LavaBaron (talk) 23:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Shenandoah Sentinel addition to Local Media

It's been brought to my attention that I must write an article here if I want to re-add the only news source based in Shenandoah, Pennsylvania to its Wikipedia page, to justify its usefulness, so here-goes.

First and foremost, it's the only news source based in Shenandoah. The Republican-Herald is based in Pottsville, the Standard~Speaker in Hazleton, and the TV Stations are even farther (Hazleton, Wilkes-Barre, Moosic).

Secondly, the site is professional, accurate, and unbiased. Articles which are covered by both the Sentinel and another news source can be easily fact-checked to show accuracy. Articles which aren't covered by multiple sources could be more difficult if they aren't local. Their reporter has covered stories for WBRE/WYOU of Wilkes-Barre on multiple occasions, as well.

Thirdly, in a community like Shenandoah, the Shenandoah Sentinel is the first and sometimes only news source covering a story, as it's the only truly local news source, as the Standard~Speaker only covers Greater Hazleton, of which Shenandoah is not a part of, and the Republican-Herald primarily covers the Pottsville area of Schuylkill County, infrequently sending reporters out to other portions of the county for things like borough council meetings or fires, but they generally stick to Greater Pottsville.

If you'd prefer to use your own judgement, see their pages at www.facebook.com/ShenSentinel , www.shenandoahsentinel.weebly.com , and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKZwrMMuvYcC1H0EGMuy5dw --G0h4n123 (talk) 20:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I should also cite the inclusion of Hazleton Headlines, another online-based news source, in the Hazleton, Pennsylvania article's Newspaper section. --G0h4n123 (talk) 20:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Print media definitely belongs in a settlement article. Broadcast media too. The guidelines endorse both (WP:USCITY). There is no such endorsement for "online media". Article content is decided on an article by article basis, so what is in another article is irrelevant. I have a hard time considering an organization that lists no address, has no staff named nor any by lined articles and is hosted on a free webhost as a serious journalistic effort. At this point, this is no more than an anonymous blog. G0h4n123, do you have any connection with this organization? John from Idegon (talk) 20:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll offer up a few more items to consider, to answer your questions. According to a story by WBRE-TV 28 of Wilkes-Barre, PA, the organization is operated by a single person, an aspiring journalist attempting to gain experience in the field. As such, with only a single staff member, listing staff on the site beyond photo credits (where the student's name is listed, if you were to have looked through the site's articles thoroughly) would be relatively redundant. As such, a high school student from an economically depressed community likely cannot afford a domain name for a website or an office (as referenced in the WBRE story. The site operates on donations), and it would be highly irresponsible for the student to list his home address online. I also again bring up the fact that the organization has covered stories for WBRE-TV 28 in the past, most recently an Easter Egg Hunt in Shenandoah. If the organization was simply an anonymous blog, as you claim, would a professional broadcast news entity even consider accepted news and video from them?

As for affiliation with the organization, I have none. I'm simply an informed Shenandoah resident. --G0h4n123 (talk) 22:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia's purpose is not to provide publicity for anyone. The fact that this nameless person started a news dissemination organization at a young age is laudable and ambitious. However, an organization that is not legit enough to have a legal structure, it's own website, does not list an editorial staff and solicits donation on its website is simply not legit. Sorry. It doesn't belong to AP or UPI, by not listing any corporate or personal info, it is effectively denying responsibility for its content. It's cute. It isn't encyclopedic. And unless you can form a consensus, it stays out. John from Idegon (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I've opened a Dispute Resolution Notice as I feel you haven't taken much into account beyond a basic judgement drawn from from simply skimming through the page's website and my explanations, and failed to take into account any other information presented. The notice can be viewed here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Shenandoah.2C_Pennsylvania --G0h4n123 (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

And it has been closed properly as premature. There are two or three steps needed first. Either post neutral notification of this discussion at all the WikiProjects that follow this article or request WP:3O. Please notice what I did with the colons to properly thread this discussion. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 18:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

My recommendation would be 3O, as there are only two of us involved. The step after that is WP:RFC, which takes at least thirty days. Thanks again, G0h4n123. John from Idegon (talk) 18:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Renew discussion January 2020
It has been nearly three years since the above dialogue concluded. In light of subsequent developments, I believe it is time to reconsider inclusion of The Shenandoah Sentinel in the article's Local Media section.

First, let me recapitulate the objections expressed here in 2017 by @John from Idegon:

• organization lists no address
• has no staff named nor any bylined articles
• is hosted on a free webhost
• no more than an anonymous blog
• started by a nameless person
• not legit enough to have a legal structure or its own website
• does not list an editorial staff
• solicits donation on its website
• is effectively denying responsibility for its content

As of January 9, 2020, The Shenandoah Sentinel:

• has its own HTTPS secure website with Registry Domain ID: 2282737036_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
• staff named: founder Kaylee Lindenmuth is writer/editor and photographer
• all articles are bylined
• solicits advertising but not donations on its website
• links to its own Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube accounts
• accepts responsibility for its content.

I suggest that these improvements overcome John from Idegon's objections sufficiently to permit a new, better informed discussion. NedFausa (talk) 19:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)