Talk:Shaun Greenhalgh

Latest comment: 1 year ago by 2A00:23C8:7907:4B01:B464:6620:3068:CE32 in topic Leonardo

Draftiness

edit

Well, that's the first draft finished. Have at. Aukker (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Photos

edit

Yep, needs photos. (Wish)list in 'Gallery' section is just a reminder. Aukker (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Copied this to photo request page. Hope it doesn't, like, create an awkward loop leading to the destruction of the universe or anything:

  • Shaun Greenhalgh, the forger. He was an eclectic fellow, and did many things including sculptures. You can see links to my wishlist in the articles' gallery or list of known forgeries. I hope not only to get photos of the forgeries themselves, but also, for comparison, what he worked from. In particular, the Amarna Princess. His version was based in part on the Louvre princess and the Penn Museum princess. Other items that went on public display include the Risley Park Lanx (ok, not a sculpture) and The Faun (not by Gauguin). Cheers Aukker (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Known Forgeries

edit

It would be good to see this section expanded into something more than a rudimentary list, with details of chronology, price, etc. Aukker (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Expanded list. Have tried to order list by historical chronology of items. So, not by date at which item was discovered to be a forgery, but taking into account when item was made, authenticated, sold, exhibited, etc. Aukker (talk) 21:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

The Brother

edit

Belatedly i discover there's a brother, George Jnr. Bolton mafia? Aukker (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Is this what you mean? It's an early article in the Bolton News Sat April 21, where it's a gang of four with George Jnr aged 52 then 53 in relation to Bolton Council and the Amarna statue[1] Julia Rossi (talk) 05:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes, cheers. I saw a similar, peripheral reference in the Telegraph [2]. Perhaps that is all there is to his involvment. I'll wedge it in somewhere. Aukker (talk) 18:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Manual of Style

edit

Havat Manual of Style for wikifying. This is very interesting article, so interesting that suggest some of the details within the reference tags could be put into the article as extra info or html'd to read in the references as notes. Otherwise they only show up on edit page which means the edit page gets clumsy and they are virtually lost. Also suggest no need to enclose every word in quotes if refs are there and they are in a paraphrase anyway. Cheers Julia Rossi (talk) 00:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Youre right re the footnotes, but problem is inserting them into main article is never a one-to-one process and things can get a bit TristramShandyesque. Tried to avoid that. As to enclosure: never intentionally put parapharases in quotes, just quotes! Of course I couldve made mistakes, but hope if anyone is removing them they are checking source. Acutally I am probably definitely guilty of over-quoting. Too close, enslaved by the sources; can't get the distance to paraphrase. Which is just an excuse I know; hope it encourages others to be ruthless. Aukker (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Point taken. BTW, "motivations" looks okay to me. Look forward to further developments. Julia Rossi (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

By the by.. have reformatted the footnotes. They look a bit like References now (redundant?), but its much better than having two intertwined numbered notation systems! Also, shifted info going dead between the ref-tags out into the article proper. Thanks for the pointers. Aukker (talk) 09:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Money Laundering

edit

Explanation for why i've deleted last para of 'Motivation' section: In the last part of the 'Motivation' section I tried to indicate how much money the Greenhalghs' had, and for how long. The purpose of this was to suggest several possiblities, viz-
(1) that they lived in squalor because the chronology indicated they hadnt had the money long enough to spend it; (so their motivation was somewhat indeterminate) and/or
(2) that they had spent it - there being significantly less than their purported overall gain left in the accounts, ie they were motivated by money.

(1)was semi-speculative really, based on the comment that the Greenhalgh's big success was 'short-lived'([3]BBC). i was thinking about deleting it altogether anyways.

Then it was all rewritten, incorporating the money laundering, mostly I think to magnify or qualify (2). Only now it sounds like less about 'Motivation' and more about 'Monies involved.' And I think the quote there re Shaun being convicted for concealing and transferring covers it already. And I'm not sure it's possible to say anything about the Greenhalgh's spending habits, so I've deleted redundant end of 'Motivation.' Aukker (talk) 00:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Reply


Tate Modern, Bonhams etc

edit

Was the Tate Modern fooled? This is the quote that originally stuck in my mind:

He persuaded experts from some of the country's most famous museums, such as the British Museum and the Tate Modern, as well as auction houses Bonhams, Christie's and Sotheby's, into paying hundreds of thousands of pounds for them. [4]

Which is explicit, and is all the verification one needs. However, rereading the article I note this occurs later: "Greenhalgh Snr also tried to con the Tate Modern, London, into buying a carved stone head.." which implies otherwise.

So what's the correct response? Shrug. Unless there's another source, i'm inclined to go with an explicit statement of fact rather than an implication. Aukker (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Okay after this article on Bonhams role.. [5] Despite press articles, its now not clear if these institutions were duped, ever, by the Greenhalghs. Or just not in these cases. Inserted Bonhams counter-indicative quote in Reactions section. Aukker (talk) 01:52, 17 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Maybe he just fell at the hurdle of the carved stone head. :) And congrats on the DYK achievement - so cool! Julia Rossi (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ta. I have added in that the Greenhalghs did successfully gift an Otto Dix to the Tate [6]. Though which exactly, no-one's saying. As per most of Gs "known" forgeries.. Aukker (talk) 00:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Birthdate

edit

Does anyone know the birthdate of Shaun Greenhalgh? I've add an infobox but it's missing a few facts, most notably birthdate and an image.yorkshiresky (talk) 14:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

using comments on articles

edit

There are two references (ref 34 and 62 of [7]; ref 21 and 29 of my revised [8]) which refer to comments on online news articles. IMO these comments are not a reliable source, and should be replaced with better sources or the associated statements should be dropped. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Malware warning

edit

On clicking the link at note 32, which is supposed to go to Shaun Greenhalgh's own website, I got a malware warning from Avira, which blocked the page from opening. Maybe this is a false alarm, or maybe it is somehow appropriate!109.150.72.117 (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've removed that link, just in case. Thanks for pointing it out. --Hillbillyholiday talk 14:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)Reply
edit

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Shaun Greenhalgh. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Leonardo

edit

I recently read Martin Kemp's book about his long involvement with the work of Leonardo da Vinci. He discusses Shaun Greenhalgh's claim to have faked a Leonardo drawing, and gives seemingly good reasons for rejecting the claim. Out of curiosity I have also just read Greenhalgh's 'memoir', and this gave me some doubts. First, Greenhalgh pours scorn on an unnamed 'Oxford professor' - unmistakably Kemp - who authenticated the drawing. This gives the argument a personal edge which I don't think Kemp mentioned in his own account. In turn, he scorns Greenhalgh on the grounds that a poorly educated young man could not have forged something so sophisticated, despite the evident sophistication of Greenhalgh's other fakes, such as a Gauguin sculpture. Secondly, Kemp ignores an important part of Greenhalgh's claim, which is that the wooden board on which the drawing is mounted was taken from an old school desk. Greenhalgh gives some details about this which ought to be open to verification or refutation.2A00:23C8:7907:4B01:B464:6620:3068:CE32 (talk) 17:09, 22 June 2023 (UTC)Reply