Talk:Serbs/Archive 7

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Picture

In the collage picture add Karl Malden and Milla Jovovic as well as Bora Milutinovic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.86.144.128 (talk) 01:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Serbs by place

Slovenia

The number of Serbs in Slovenia is definitely not 38964 + 18000 erased. First, the 18000 "erased" inhabitants of Slovenia (i.e., citizens of other ex-Yugoslav republics who failed to apply for either residence permit or citizenship and were subsequently "erased" from the official registry in 1992) were not only Serbs, but also Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Albanians etc. Second, practically all of the "erased" have either taken care for their status since then (i.e. obtained citizenship/residence permit) or have left Slovenia. Most of the "erased" remaining in Slovenia were therefore already included in the 2002 census. So, the upper bound for the number of Serbs in Slovenia is about 40000. The number of almost 60000, suggested by the article, is therefore a misinformation and a gross overestimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.235.183.141 (talk) 09:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually alot of Serbs in Slovenia simpy didnt declare at all, or have declared as Bosnians, Montenegrins, Slovenes or Yugoslavs - so the actual number would be much higher ... there are probably up to 90.000 people of Serbian heritage and ancestry in Slovenia - but the problem is alot of them dont declare so. Id say about 40 - 50.000 people are "trully" serbs while the remaining ~50.000 are of mixed parentage, or just serbian (distant) ancestry and therefore do not declare at all or declare as another ethnicity. (Правичност (talk) 03:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC))

Kosovo

Serbia with over a 100 other countries sees Kosovo as a province. So that is why it is under Serbia in the population. Mike Babic (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The serb population data is ridicolous. 83% are the Serbs in Serbia Ecluding Kossovo - which means 83% of 7.5 ml = 6 ml. Including Kossovo the population of Serbia is 10 ml and the percent of serbs - 60% —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.92.229.11 (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

the Serb population in Serbia is 6.2 million...it should be remedied...8.3 milion? 83% of what? it is clearly wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.145.11 (talk) 11:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

83% of Serbs in Serbia, which includes Kosovo. Stop getting your info from people who want to separate Kosovo like World Bank of KFOR, they've never had a census of the entire region. Total population of Serbia proper is 9.462 million of which 83% are ethnic Serbs which is currently 7.8 million, although it used to be 8.27 million before the turn of the millennium. A lot of Serbs left Kosovo and Serbia. Those that remained refuse to respond to KFOR surveys which is why the "legal" Kosovo population is very much under the "actual" 2.127 million. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 01:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

If you include Kosovo then Serbs in Serbia are approximately 65% of the total population, without Kosovo 83%.iadrian (talk) 09:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

No, with Kosovo it is 83%. There are slightly more than 10 million people of all ethnic groups in the whole of Serbia. There are a total of 1.6698mil Albanians living in Kosovo, and the number of all other non-Serbs in Kosovo is below 100,000. The only way your statement of 65% would be true is if the population of non-Serbs in Kosovo was 2.5 million. That can't be true because the population of Kosovo is hovering slightly below 1,815,048 for all ethnic groups. You may be using the 2002 census or just have your numbers wrong. 216.249.60.118 (talk) 16:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

My first notion here is that dispelling all your suspicions about number of Serbs in Serbia with and without Kosovo is promptly needed. According to the 2002. census conducted in Serbia excluding Kosovo,there were 6,212,838 Serbs (82.86 %) of 7,498,001 inhabitants. When Kosovo is included the number of inhabitants is put at 9.5 million,among which 6.4 million Serbs (around 200 thousands of Kosovo Serbs included) or 67 % of whole population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookey34 (talk • contribs) 11:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, according to the infamous incomplete 2002 census, performed right after a war with very few responders. Find a more recent census, at least after 2009. 216.249.60.118 (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Netherlands

Number of Serbs in the Netherlands is overestimated. Dutch Institute of statistics holds very specific data on 1st and 2nd generation of immigrants and for whole of the former Yugoslavia, the number does not reach 100.000 let alone 180.000 mentioned in this article. Anyone with common sense living in Holland knows that these numbers are simply not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.116.228.145 (talk) 00:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

According to this Dutch Institute mentioned aboe there are actually around 35.000 Serbs in the Netherlands. I do not understand why the couple of thousend in Luxemburg are mentioned and not the significant number of Serbian people living in Holland. I would like to ask the administrator to add this to the section demographics. The info from the Dutch Statistics is available!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.151.238 (talk) 09:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Brazil

802,000 Serbs in Brazil? Come on, this is a joke, right? The Serbian Wikipedia says about 2000. So I changed that. --80.133.188.228 (talk) 10:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That is inaccurate and erroneous, the estimated numbers of Serbs are 50,000 to 150,000. The "official" count of only 2,000 Serbs are in Bolivia known to attracted Serbian immigration for half a century, because Brazil ranks in the top 10 countries with the most Serbians living overseas. Now about the 800,000 Brazilians reportedly being of Balkan or Slavic descent, not entirely are Serbs or from Serbia itself. There are over 100,000 estimated Serbs in Argentina, although the Montenegrins and Croatians are more numerous in that country. The listing of Serb population worldwide is incomplete and needs better organization, someone put in 5 more countries on that list and the newly included info. isn't showing on the page. + Mike D 26 (talk) 08:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Bosnia and Herzegovina

There aren't 1,711,576 Serbs living in Bosnia. [[1]] Following the latest release from the Republika Srpska government, there are 1,430,000~ Serbs living in Bosnia. A 300,000 increase of population is highly impracticable seeing as ~3,000-4,000 Serbs have been leaving Bosnia since the year 2003. Kalesija (talk) 19:54, 19 December 2009 (EST)

No, the release from Republika Srpska only talks about Serbs in Republika Srpska. It does not cover all of Bosnia. 216.249.60.118 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC).

Montenegro

Montenegrins

Some remarks about Montenegrins section:

• 1First off, the article says that all Montenegrins were historically part of the Serbian nation, which is untrue.
• 2The independence movement did not start in late 20th century, considering the fact that Montenegro (under names of Doclea, Zeta, and later as Principality and Kingdom of Montenegro) has a centuries-old history of statehood.
• 3Not some, but all Montenegrin who declare Montenegrin, rather than Serb nationality, consider themselves a separate Montenegrin nation.
• 4"Supported by Croats and Bosniaks they won independence" - there is no evidence how particular national groups voted on the referendum, so this would be original research, which is not the best way to gain info for wiki articles.
• 5The majority that won the referendum on independence was 55,4%, so it is not relative, but absolute majority (note the difference between the two).
• 6Montenegro and Serbia were seldom ruled by the same people, since the Montenegrin dynasties (Houses of Vojislavljević, Balšić, Crnojević and Petrović) did not rule the Serbian country, and vice versa.
• 7One more thing, Montenegrins mostly speak Montenegrin language, while the Serbs in Montenegro declare Serbian as their native language, although that is more of a political chice than the linguistical one.

Hence, I am putting a disputed tag on this section. Sideshow Bob 10:19, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Montenegrins

The medieval Serb State consisted of Serbian lands, whose ruler dynasties, over the course of time ruled over one, multiple, or all the lands (Doclea or Zeta was one of them). Most of the things listed are radicaly extreme, which is normal for the current political situation in Montenegro. One should just remember that 80% of ethnic Serb families come from that region, in the times of repopulation of the land, Great Serb Migrations. The founding father of the Serbian Nationalism was also the ruler of Montenegro from the Dynasty of Petrovic, namely Njegos and that more Montenegrins speak Serbian than Montenegrin, according to the last census rougly 150 000 speak Serbian, and 100 000 speak Montenegrin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.94.188 (talk) 21:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Norway

Correct number of Serbs is given here http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/minifakta_en/en/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.68.209 (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

You mean the number of Serbs in Norway? The number that is in the article should be correct, just got awful big all the sudden. Adrian (talk) 21:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course in Norway, that was mine comment. what kind of comment is this "just got awful big all the sudden"???... number is not correct have a look the link and there u'll find right number 2807 in year 2010 (source SSB, Norway) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.226.251 (talk) 12:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no column for 2010, that is a lie. In fact there is no ethnological question at all. Those are numbers of COUNTRY of origin, not nationality. A Serb emigrating to Norway from Bosnia would register in the Bosnia column and so on, but he would still be a Serb. 216.249.60.118 (talk) 16:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

The number representing the total number of Serbs in the whole world just got awful big(font size) all the sudden(see other articles about other nations). I have looked at the link you presented but I can`t manage to find any information regarding this matter. Can you please direct me how to find it on this link ? Thank you. Adrian (talk) 13:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

ok. first click here http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/minifakta_en/en/

   then, 3. Demographics, health and crime
   and finally, Immigrant population and Norwegian-born to immigrant parents

would be nice to have so much serbs here in norway, but it is not true —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.226.251 (talk) 20:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I found the data but it is a little confusing. There are 2 numbers for Serbia and Montenegro , 7 580 and 9 064, which one is about the total number of Serbs in Norway? Adrian (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I see that the number already present in the article has no reference which means it is probably incorrect. Adrian (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey can you help me with number of Serbs in Norway? I don`t know which data is correct, 7 580 or 9 064? Thank you.Adrian (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Immigrants and Norwegian-born to immigrant parents for 2008, 2807 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.189.58.98 (talk) 19:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that you have changed number of serbs from 19.000 to 9.064. well, I guess you don't want to see numbers on the official webpage of Statistics of Norway. Number 9.064 clearly refer to year 1995 not to 2007 and for 2008 there are given two numbers; for Immigrant population 2.302 and for Immigrants and Norwegian-born to immigrant parents 2.807. I really wondering how some of you guys got the rights to edit wikipedia ?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.68.189 (talk) 07:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afghan British (contains proposal for deletion of the British Serbs article). Badagnani (talk) 04:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Size

I just reverted one vandal who changed numbers in the Infobox, and in doing so I noticed that the Infobox data has 35 regions. Please note that the template used has a maximum of 31 regions, and is not changeable. Perhaps someone would like to re-structure the data to accommodate all the data?  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 21:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Dustin in the coolest kid alive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.198.224 (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Luzic Serbs?

I believe a small Serbo-Austrian community exists in the town of Rust (Luzic) Burgenland, Austria. They have Slavonian-Serb ancestors whom migrated into Austria in the 16th century to escape the Ottoman Turks invasion of Slavonia (Croatia)/Northern Serbia. There isn't any mention nor an article devoted to the Austrian/Luzic Serbs, although an article of Estereicher, Bosnian-Austrians is available. If any chance the category broadly includes Luzic Serbs, but Germanization has nearly replaced the cultural identities of multi-generational Serbs living in Austria-Hungary. I checked out Wikipedia articles on Slavic peoples in Austria: Carinthian Slovenes and Burgenland Croats in case there was (but isn't any) references to Luzic Serbs or Serbian migration to Austria. +Mike D 26 (talk) 12:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Tribes of Serbia

native Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian tribes. Celtic tribes in the 3rd century BC, Roman colonization, Avar and Slav settlements. - signed by anon IP

Correct, the ancestors of Serbs and other Balkan peoples did originate from the Dacians or Illyrians. The Greeks via the ancient province of Macedonia to the south and the Goths or other east Germanic tribes have crossed the Sava and Danube rivers in what was then Roman Pannonia or Bakovina. I believe the Slavic Serbs have some Greek and Gothic ancestors in addition to the Celts, Romans and Magyars. The Greeks introduced the Eastern Orthodox church in Serbia after the great schism from the Roman Catholic church in the 1000's from the predominant Byzantine Greek influence about a millennia ago. + Mike D 26 (talk) 08:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Well considering the Serbs came from west of Germany as a people, that much would seem obvious. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 18:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Reply

• 1: It is true, All the dynasties of "Montenegro" ruled the principality as a "Serb" state. The Njegos-Petrovic's, probably what Montenegrins are most proud of and consider "Montenegrin" were self spoken ethnic Serbs, and claiming that they were advocating a separate nation to that of the Serbian is complete BS, you can read the Mountain wreath, or see the majority of literature from Duklja. Oh, and throughout the 19th century, Montenegro was a Nation-state of the Serbs.
• 2:It started with the Christmas Uprising 1919. All dynasties of Duklja-Zeta were Serbian, that is a fact, the Montenegrin identity did not exist at the time, only the word "Montenegro" comes into time in the 15th century. Duklja itself emerged from a Serbian zhupanate (region) after brief independence from the Byzantine Empire in 10th century.
• 3:The term "Montenegrins" is in this case a regional affiliation of ethnic Serbs, such as Sumadians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians etc. the term came into national affiliation only after communism and Tito had come to power.
• 4:" Ulcinj municipality, an ethnic Albanian centre, voted strongly in favour of independence (88.50%). The regions bordering Albania and Kosovo that have mostly Bosniak, Muslim and Albanian population, were heavily in favour of independence (78.92% in Plav, 91.33% in Rožaje)"
• 5:relative majority
• 6:The first ruler of Duklja, Petar Gojnikovic, is a Vlastimirovic, the descendants of the Serbian archont, and i can make a hundred more...
• 7:Wrong. 63.49% of the total population speaks Serbian. Serbian is now a minority language in Montenegro but it is spoken by the majority.

The people of Duklja were called Serbs, Dukljans, Triballi, Dalmatians, even Croats by medieval sources. At least until recently, few historians would doubt that Dukljians were part of 'Serbdom'. However, middle age 'states' like Duklja/ Zeta and Raska/Serbia were dynastic realms and not nation-states like in modern times. What is undeniable is the religious, linguistic and culural similarities and the dynastic relations which linked the two regions. They were like two 'power centres' for the southern west Balkan Slavs. Hxseek (talk) 03:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

hahaha what imagination... Sources with mention of Doclea were only saying about the Croats and Docleats in Doclea. No Serbs. It was Red Croatia (Southern Croatia), as well as White Croatia was Western Croatia. Serbian mythology lives on and on. God help us. 89.172.88.166 (talk) 12:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, Skylitzes calls Voislav 'Ruler of Serbs'. The early modern, western scholar, Daniel Farlati, considered Duklja as one of the Serb statelets. How would you link a Byantine chronicler and an Italian historian with "Serbian mythology " ? Hxseek (talk) 09:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Typical Greater Serbian metathesis!!! Vojislav lived in the 12th century, there was no Doclea anymore. And Skylitzes was already dead. Farlati's referrence is a Holy Spirit? Or maybe someone like Deretić? This article is full of lies, like that stupid map with "Serbian lands". Serbian lands? What is that if not Serbian mythology? Only sick nationalists are writing here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.148.232 (talk) 09:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Famous Serbs

Can we please include Vlade Divac, Dejan Stanković, Novak Đoković, Jelena Janković, Rade Šerbedžija, Karl Malden, Holly Valance, or at least some of them?

Maybe Emir Kusturica too?Bojan7B (talk) 16:35, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what is the exact criteria for inclusion in this photo, as I can see for now, there are only historical figures there. Maybe we should wait for somebody with more experience about this question. By me, If we have appropriate photos of the people mentioned , sure , I don`t see any reason why not. I am not sure only about Emir Kusturica, although he declares himself as a Serb, he isn`t a Serb by origin. Adrian (talk) 16:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

He has said him self that he traced his family tree and that he saw that his family was serbian origin but they had changed to Islam because of the ˝political˝ times... SO in conclusion because he discovered his family was Serbian he declare him self a Serbian and changed his religion to Serbian Ortodox....213.198.232.226 (talk) 11:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

But as we know, the ethnic group called "Bosniaks" started to exist because of the same reasons you state as reason why Kusturica should be listed as a Serb, because of people changing to Islam due to political reasons in the Medieval... or did Kusturica's family change to Islam much later? I highly doubt that. I don't think listing Kusturica as one of the most famous Serbs is correct, since he is clearly not an ethnic Serb, but only a self-proclaimed and nationalized Serb. If we list him as a Serb, we have to merge the articles "Serbs" and "Bosniaks". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayhemma (talk • contribs) 23:38, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Can we please include Rushka Bergman and link to her page? She is a Fashion Editor of Italian L'Uomo Vogue and Vogue Italia, as well as former Personal Stylist to Michael Jackson and alumni of the University of Belgrade Faculty of Economics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.39.127.198 (talk) 17:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Is she of Serbian descent? iadrian (talk) 09:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm a Serb, and I've never heard for her in my life. So, I wouldn't say she is famous Serb. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Is Bregovic one of 12 most famous Serbs in our history? He is just a folk musician with bad taste. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anps3 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Ivo Andric

OK, Tesla was a Serb, i'll give u that, but Ivo Andric was ethnicly Croat! So why do u keep putting him where he doesn't belong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.202.117 (talk) 23:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Even so, Andrić declared himself a Serb. --Prevalis (talk) 03:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Isnt it that Tesla was an ethnic Serb living in Croatia, Andric was an ethnic Croat living in Serbia? 124.186.73.222 (talk) 03:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrić was born in ethnic Croat catholic family in Bosnia. He wrote in both Croatian and Serbian language and made tribute to the both cultures. But it is pretentious to call him a Serb. If you wanna be accurate you can call him Yugoslav, Yugoslav orientated Croat or or Yugoslav who was born Croat but call him a Serb is just wrong and isn't up to wikipedia standards...Greetings from Croatia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.22.34 (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Shut up you st*?=d id+-t Ivo Andrić maybe was from a catholic family and yes he was a Croat but he declared himself a Serb and I think he is a Serb. I don't see why we (croats) try to make him look as a Croat when he declared the opposite, I myself think of him as a SERB because he gave up his Croatian ethnicity and degraded himself to a Serb, so if you put him on your image of famous Serbs, I and every other normal croat will not say anything of that, because when I asked everyone what do they think of Andrić they said that he was a SERB. Carib canibal (talk) 11:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Andrić was neither a "Serb" nor a "Croat," but A Yugoslav. Paperoverman (talk) 12:32, 2 April 2009 (EST)

Lol,,,. I know that the discussion happened a long time ago, but it doesn`t matter how Ivo Andric declared himself, that doesn`t change the fact that he was of Croat, Serbian, or any other EX-YU ethnicity.iadrian (talk) 09:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Ivo Andric was a great, wise man, Nobel prize holder for literacy. He was citizen of the world. You still argue about stupid things. Wake up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.66.164.189 (talk) 13:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I just want too say that he declared him self a Serb before his death i think he should be in both articles Croats and Serbs(we need to respect the mans wishes)213.198.232.226 (talk) 11:49, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

No we don't have to respect that...WE have to face the fact that people can't choose their own ethnicity... they can choose a nationality by accepting a new citizenship, but an Inuit can never suddenly become a Tanzanian, even if he really wishes for xD These articles ("Serbs", "Bosniaks", "Croats") are about the ethnicity, not about the nationality of being a Serb or Croat. So when we talk about ethnicity, Andric has nothing to do on the article about Serbs. He was an ethnic Croat, no matter what his own stance towards these people was. As we all know, family are the friends one cannot choose. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayhemma (talk • contribs) 23:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Native???

Quote: "Serbs (Serbian: Срби, Serbian Latinic: Srbi pronounced [ˈsr̩biː]) are a native Balkan South Slavic ethnic group."

How come that Serbs are a native to Balkan, when it's a common fact that Slavs migrated to Balkan region in the 7't century?... If here is taken on consideration the genetic material of Serbs then we can easily say that Americans are native to the North American continent because they assimilated native Indians so that in this way they can be considered native of Americas!!!yllbardh 02:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yllbardh (talk • contribs)

It is considered "native" because they live there a long time. Not native people are considered nowdays only ethnic groups that emigrated recently, in the last 200 years, for example Romanians in Italy,Spain, etc... Another example, Turks, well-known fact that they migrated from Asia but they are considered native today. Adrian (talk) 10:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

So according to you Americans can as well be considered as natives of North America...lol...yllbardh 15:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yllbardh (talk • contribs)

Not according to me but to the general practice on Wikipedia. Adrian (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

A native is really anyone who is born in a specific area or country where that individual or group of people continue to live. So, while those very first Serbs in the 7th century weren't native to the Balkans, their children and the generations born after certainly were and are. Thus, Serbs today are native to the Balkans. Buttons (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

After this much time, yeah, they are "native." The whole area has been such a swirling whirlpool of races (as noted in the novel Dracula) that to speak of the "original" inhabitants of the area as the only natives is somewhat myopic, IMO. Note that the Slavs intermarried and were assimilated over time by the existing peoples, who adopted Slavic tongues.HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Inaccurate image?

File:Europe 814.jpg has generated discussion on its talk page for being accurate. I would cite that it shows Serbian population extending into southern Greece. This is bound to generate heated debate at some point. It also seems to show ethnic and political distribution at the same time. Can we take it down for a different image? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not inaccurate for the brief period of time it covers (early 800s AD). "Occasional Slav tribes, continuing their southward movement, penetrated into Thessaly, while others even reached the Peleponnesus and actually took over and settled a considerable area of this venerable soil." -Ferdinand Schevill, A History of the Balkans; The map does not indicate a lasting presence, nor political organization.Ignatiusboethius (talk) 14:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ruđer Bošković

I'm not really sure what does Ruđer Bošković do among all those Serbs in infobox, when he was a Croat Catholic priest? Neither Ivo Andrić...if he is Serb, than Nikola Tesla is Croat...or you will say that even Pope himself is Serb? :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.142.122.204 (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Ruder Boskovic is an ethnic Serb. He just happened to be a Catholic priest. His name and family all suggest he was clearly an ethnic Serb.

Not his name but his ancestry is not Croat, nor he saw himself as such, one cannot depict all Catholic Slavs as Croats, in that case Poles, Slovaks, Czechs are also Croats, just because they are Catholics. There are Serbs which are Catholic or Muslim, however not Croats or Bosniaks, it is their religion, not their ethnicity.

History of Serbs

The basic name, Serboi, originates in the works of Tacitus, Plinius and Ptolemy in the 1st and 2nd centuries, describing a people living north of the Caucasus. Following the migration into Central Europe, Serbs established a state called Sorbia (Belasrbia - White Serbia) in the 5th century. The term White Serbia (White Rus/White Ruthenia, Belarus) is connected with Iranic word-side system because of their Sarmatian heritage, as Sarmatians were indo-European proto-Iranic branch of people who used colors as world sides: white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. Part of Sarmatian and Scythian tribes settled at present day Ukraine/Russia around river Tanais (river Don). The historian Ptolemy identifies the Serboi as a tribe who lived north of the Caucasus, and other sources identify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the 3rd century. Some historians argue that the arrival of the Huns on the European steppe forced a portion of Alans previously living there to move northwest into the land of Venedes, possibly merging with Western Balts there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations. Their arrival in the Balkans is thought to have happened in the sixth century A.D., when Serbs settled among the other Slavic tribes that settled there a century earlier and mixed with them forming a medieval Serbian nation. Some of the White Serbs did not leave and their descendants are known as Sorbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Studiesad (talk • contribs) 01:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Infobox image

The new infobox image (now part of the Template:Serbs infobox) is pretty dubious for following reasons:

1. It was not discussed at the talk pagae, and such an imporatnt edit must be discussed and consensus reached. The previous image was put on discussion and nobody complained. (See Talk:Serbs/Archive 6#New Infobox Picture.)
2. It is to large, and has too many photos. The article on Greeks for example, has only five pictures, althought I guess there are more famous Greeks than Serbs. The article on Jews has only four pictures, and Jews are one of the oldest peoples in the world.
3. It includes images of some people who's Serbian origin is prety much disputed, as Ruđer Bošković who is also included in Croats infobox image.
4. It includes image of some Dimitrije Mitrinović of whom I never heard, althought I know Serbian history pretty much, and whose importance is debatable.
5. It includes image of Novak Đoković who was World's No2 tennis player at his best, but does not include images of Ana Ivanović or Jelena Janković who were both World No1 players.

I propose the old picture be restored before the consensus is reached for a new one. What do You say? Vanjagenije 10:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hm, very well, Vanjagenije. Good reasoning. Well, i propose these persons. Milutin Milanković, Nikola Tesla, Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, Vuk Karadžić, and Saint Sava. Milanković and Tesla for obvious reasons, one of the most important peoples in scientific history of mankind, Stefan Uroš as possibly the greatest Serbian ruler, king and emperor, Vuk for his importance to Serbs, and Sava, as patron saint of Serbs, and founder of Serbian religion. What do you say? P.S. Who the heck is Dimitrije Mitrinović? :) :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, forgot to write, i saw that former picture, and i think that it may be better not to include Nadežda and Karadjordje, but, we will see. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

And once more. Andrić and Kusturica. It wasn't controversial to put Andrić in Croat infobox, so it will not be problem to put it here also. And Kusturica is out greatest film director of all time, so... Maybe we should place them insted those two from above. Or, we can just remove those questionable from the present image, and add those hwo are missing. That is good idea also. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I remember that in 2008 I tried to put Kusturica's picture in the infobox, but it was promptly removed by User:Pokrajac with an explanation that living people should not be in the infobox. (see: User talk:Vanjagenije/Archive 1#Slika). Vanjagenije 11:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I suggest we have 15 or 18 photos (3 rows); Tesla, Njegos, Tsar Dusan, Vuk and Saint Sava, and living people: Kusturica, Ceca, Vlade Divac and Novak.--92.32.41.250 (talk) 13:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I dont think that there is any logic in Pokrajac view. If they are living, they are not Serbs, or what? IP proposition is ok. So, should we create a list? --WhiteWriter ^speaks 16:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Living people should not be in the infobox. That is so simple. --Pockey (talk) 20:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok dude, so every other ethnicity and race in the world is allowed live people except Serbs. Seems like you're trying to vandalise the page dude. --- Lukic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukic12345 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Reading up on Pokrajac's history, it's clear he's anti-Serb and has been damaging Serb related pages. He simply doesn't want there to be many Serbs in the info box. All edits made Pokrajac should be reverted and the old infobox should be re-installed. Looking at most other ethnicities, living people are present (Croats, Germans, French, Basque and so on) Lukic12345 (talk) 19:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The infobox here, one of the first things a reader sees, gives a rather bad first impression of Serbian society. There's only one woman among the famous Serbs in the infobox, which of course will lead the reader to wonder whether the position of women in Serbiabn society is that bad? If there are famous Serbian women, and I am sure they are, I would strongly suggest making sure that at least 25%-50% of the famous persons featured with pictures in the infobox are female. The current infobox leaves the reader wondering about how equal Serbian society is, and that is probably not what anyone wants the infobox to do.Jeppiz (talk) 13:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

How about including some more famous sportspeople such as Savicevic, Mihaijlovic or tennis player Monica Seles or basketball players Sasha Vujacic, Nenad Kristic and Peja Stojakovic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.211.88 (talk) 09:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Constantine Palaiologos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI_Palaiologos

The last emperor of the byzantine empire was a Serb. He qualifies for the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukic12345 (talk • contribs) 05:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

What list? This is an article about Serbs, not a list. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:49, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It is hard to say was he Serb, becouse nobles and people from dinasties have very mixed nationality.--Wustefuchs (talk) 19:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

- Constantine XI Palaiologos'is mother was a Serbian noble, Jelena Dejanovic Dragas, he himself was a Romioi like his father and all Palaiologos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.77.141 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

he was half greek half serb. byzantine empire was all greeks but they had very friendly realtionships with the serbs so the last 2 emperors where half serbs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.130.80.35 (talk) 09:05, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request from Demislav, 23 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

About serbs origin in ethnology/genetic category.I would like to suggest the following sentence :

Many studies have been made and suggests a focus of Iranian origin whose Serbs and Croats are derived, the relevance of this possibility is led by philology, vexillology, folklore, anthropology and genetic. The source : http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Thank you for your consideration.

Demislav (talk) 15:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC) Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. While that article looks interesting, it does not appear to meet our reliable source guidelines. It looks like it was first published in the "Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation", but I can't find any information about that magazine online to show it's a reliable source, and even the hits I'm getting on the organization appear to be either non-independent or self-published. If the same ideas have occurred in reliable sources, though, we could include the information as one theory. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Counting hromozoms

Genetic analysis is scientific approach and that is fine. But results are quite confusing. They are really not telling us much. Some things makes are similar to one side, the other to the other. Results are pretty much inconclusive to make such amazing conclusions that all Balkan nations suddenly come with on their predominantly non Slavic origin???

Question: How the hell most of them speak pure Slavic languages (namely Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians, Slovenians and Slavic Macedonians). The were subdued to other empires most of their history. What work to Slavic language advantage to become so dominant if Slavs were outnumbered by Ilyrians, Trakinas and Dacians?

Even appearance. I would never forget old Indian guy in hotel in Los Angeles, who never heard for Serbia, but the moment he saw one person in hotel lobby, without a word spoken he guessed that it was Slavic. Puzzled, after answer in confirmation, I asked how did he know? He said just pure physical features, shape of head, body structure. He said it was so Slavic...

And look Croatians and Slovenians. They even look more as Slavs then Serbs (with except of Dalmatia).

Yes Slavs mixed with many, everyone did. There are no "Arian pure" on this planet and thank God for that. But it is so obvious that they are much more alike Czech, Polish, Russians, Ukranians that they have anything to do with e.g Albanians who also claim Ilyrian origins —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.77.80.106 (talk) 07:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• This is exactly why most people consider wikipedia a joke. Making a claim that south slavs are not slavs based on a genetic paternal lineage research, and not realizing what that research actually means, using a sample of 113 individuals and presenting it as a fact is ridiculous and amateurish. Newer research about south slavs is available, by the way, and it shows different picture while using broader sample to present it's data.

• http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

• Also, anyone who is familiar with Y-chromosome research will tell you that the research should not be used to identify modern ethnic groups for many reasons.

• In example, certain moroccan ethnic groups show about 90% of haplogroup r1b which is also present at about 90% in wales. Do we draw the conlusion that moroccans and welsh are the same ? Maybe morrocan people are celts.

• In any way, making such bold claims and then citing some silly reference is amateurish at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HansiIsMyGod (talk • contribs) 19:53, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Infobox picture

I believe Goran Bregovic consideres himself a Yugoslav (he is already on the picture in the Yugoslavs article infobox, as well as Emir Kusturica, however I'm pretty sure Kusturica considers himself a Serb) therefore shouldn't be on the picture in the article infobox, if I'm right, of course. Ostalocutanje (talk) 16:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, Tito and Meštrović are also in both, Croats and Yugoslavs. It´s all relative, specially for "Yugoslavs"... FkpCascais (talk) 20:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I think divac is not a good choice. I suggest replacing him or bregovic with Nadežda Petrović. (LAz17 (talk) 04:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)). Hm, sorry, nada is already on there. (LAz17 (talk) 04:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)). We are missing a very important person, Milos Obrenovic. (LAz17 (talk) 04:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)).

Info Box

What do you guys think about a new info box ? I think that 6x3 or 7x3 would be just fine. This version is pretty bad. Those colors are just too bad, and a great part of those biographies is not edited, plus we have better people for the info box. And I think that Karadjordje should be out because his picture can be senn on both Serbia and Serbs article, and articles about Serbian history, as well. Than, Goran Bregovic is simply out. And tzar Lazar should be replaces with his son.

My candidates:

Nobles, polticians, saints:

• Stefan Nemanja
• Saint Sava
• Stephen Uroš IV Dušan of Serbia
• Stefan Lazarević (and by the way we need to translate the page)
• Sokollu Mehmed Pasa
• Nikola Pasic ( Serb of Vlach orign, perhaps a better candidate?)

Army:

• Zivojin Misic
• Radomir Putnik
• Draza Mihajlovic

Science:

• Rudjer Boskovic (Born to Serb father and Italian mother, Roman Catolic and plus, Croats are editing the page to fit their needs, and he is on Croats page)
• Mihajlo Pupin
• Nikola Tesla
• Jovan Cvijic
• Milutin Milankovic

Scholars, writers, poets:

• Stojan Novakovic
• Dositej Obradovic
• Vuk Karadzic
• Petar II Petrovic Njegos
• Milos Crnjanski
• Ivo Andric

Arts:

• Paja Jovanovic
• Milla Jovovich
• Emir Kusturica
• Karl Malden
• some modern singer - Bora Djordjevic, Zdravko Colic ?

Sports:

• Vlade Divac
• Novak Djokovic
• Dejan Bodiroga
• Radomir Antic
• Nemanja Vidic

As a Serb myself, I would like that we have a good infobox, and here we can all work on that. Just to edit that and the article will be the best. Your comments are appreciated.--Mm.srb (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment "Rudjer Boskovic (Born to Serb father and Italian mother, Roman Catolic)" - according to the article he's half-Montenegrin, half-Italian, called his language Croatian, lived all his life outside Serbia (Dubrovnik and Italy) and was a Catholic. Sticking him in is quite a stretch isn't it. Mila Jovovich (half-Russian) is already in the Serbian American article and Milutin Milanković in Serbs of Croatia. Also, might be good to avoid anyone controversial like Draža is bound to be. I don't intend to get involved in this but try to make a stable selection which will not invite IP vandalism. Regards. Timbouctou (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Timbou, please don´t say Draza is polemical. It is basically only polemical in Croatia, where a deep anti-monarchic sentiment was allways present. Mihailovic is under mediation and the anti-Mihailovic propaganda heavily present in wikipedia because of a few editors must be disregarded. I´m not proposing including him, but lets not make propaganda other side either, please. Tito is also very polemical, and he is included, so that by itself it is not a reason. I understood the argument of being polemical (As for Vojvoda Djurisic) for Serbs in Croatia, but that theory doesn´t apply for a straight forward articles such as Serbs. Also, if a person is included in Serbs of some other region infobox, theyr are perfectly able to be included in Serbs infobox, as well.

About the rest I agree with you. There are enough candidates so the ones without much link to Serbs or Serbia can be perfectly replaced. I beleave Mm.srb was just naming the options he had in mind, so it is a starting point.

I´ll try to add some more names in next days. FkpCascais (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe everyone is perfectly capable of selecting their own "great persons" for the infobox so it's none of my business really - but I'm not sure that Draža is so unanimously seen as a great guy as the sr.wiki article on Serbs (presumably written by Serbs for Serbs) does not include him in the infobox. Tito was debated to death in the Croats article before he got included and there was a lot of vandalism in the process. But this is all beside the point. I personally couldn't give a toss about who you select but there are persons that we all know are likely to attract vandalism. Peace and stability is the only objective here. And yes - there's no rule saying that you can't have the same people in more than one article. Timbouctou (talk) 21:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem of Draza on sr.wiki is complex, and sr.wiki is far from being as "Serb" as people may think, but that is an unrelated discussion... I agree Draza to be a candidate, and I just disagreed you disregarding him on basis of being polemical. After all, he is a highly condecorated resistance movement leader, and those condecorations are some of the most important existing in the world. His current article on en.wiki is about to be replaced, exactly for the reason of the enormous ammount of unfair presenting of the facts, so that want be a problem any more. However, he may well not be selected cause we do have here a fair ammount of at least 12 notables, so this entire discussion may well be unnecessary. However, an contrary to the situation at Serbs in Croatia about Djurisic, Mihailovic situation here is very different. FkpCascais (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Rudjer Boskovic indeed was born to Serbian father (his father was writing about Serbian monasteries in Raška region: Sopocane, Djurdjeve Stupove kod Novog Pazara, Studenicu, Patrijarsiju, Decane, Trojicu kod Pljeval etc.). By that we can see a lot. Read "Relazione dei Monasaterij della Provincia di Rassia".

And Serbs have indeed deep roots in Dubrovnik (see DAI and Pagania). After you reed that Pagania was a part of Serbian lands and that the people were still pagans, you can check the same article on Cro. Wikipedia. Do you see the diffrence ? The same was done here - Rudjer Boskovic - to fit Croatian needs and interests. But I think that you as respected Croatian editor already know that. That is called PROPAGANDA, mate. Serbs did not show any interests in a great number of their notable people, and that is the only reason why Rudjer Boskovic is Croat to Croats. There are even some English writers who agree that Rudjer Boskovic was Serb (I can give links later if u want). In older editions of Britanicca he was seen as Serbo-Croatian, and Ivan Gundulic as a Serb. All those claims ("Croatian language", "my brave Croats") are pretty much unstable and most probably fake (check the later entry on Croatian "historian", who most probably done that). Why? When one scientist called him to be Italian, he saied that he is Dalmatian. Why did not he menttion that he is Croatian ? Notice, a great part of Dalmatia (we are talking about south Dalmatia) had a lot of Serbian population, and they were Catholics. Because of the wrong politics and unstability of Serbia in those times they are Croats today. Even your historians admited that Dubrovnik was Catholic but Serbian, such as Vatroslav Jagic, Antun Radic and Natko Nodilo. There are so many sources which claim that Dubrovnik was Serbian. But today that is not reality, and enough about that. Respected Vuk Karadzic concluded that language in Ragusa is pure Herzegovian, except that they use "H", and more Italian words.

I am trying to be objective as much as possible. But, to Boskovic than. From that we can see that he considered himself as a Ragusian (Dalmatian) on the first place. And a lot of propaganda was made in Croatia for people to know about Boskovic (аs a Croat). Starting with that Croatin "historian" Franjo Racki who used fake documents in order to glorify Croats, the same one who taught that the name of Croatian currency should be - Rudjer. Check out his work on Rudjer's orign - prilog u „Radu JAZU". broj 87 and 88 for 1887. „Ruđer Josip Bošković". Complete fake - no sources, nothing about his father's work.

Ancestors of Rudjer Boskovic are Rovcani, Serbian tribe from "Serbian Hills" (Brda), today Montenegro. Their patron saint (slava) was St. Luke. Rudjer's father Nikola (common name amoung Serbs) married with daughter of Italian tradseman Baja Betere (in our language?).

This is in Serbian, but it's just too late to translate and I am going to sleep. You'll find something interesting in the next entry.

Check this out If you do not belive me:

Scepanovici poticu od Scepana Gojakovog, koji je imao 5 sinova: Vuka, Vlatka, Bozidara, Stanisu i Radoja. Bratstvo Scepanovica se dijeli na DRASKOVICE, Puletice, BOSKOVICE i Mutapovice. Svi osim Draskovica su se iselili sa Rovaca. Pored Sime Milutinovica Sarajlije, hajduk Veljka Petrovica i Petra Dobrnjca, Rudjer Boskovic je ipak djelom najveci Rovcanin koji je svjestku slavu stekao daleko od Rovaca. U vreme pokatolicavanje Boskovica Orahovom Dolu njegov otac Nikola je ipak kao pravoslavan otisao u Dubrovnik. Neprihvatajuci pokatolicavanje, dio Boskovica, koji su se nazivali SESELJI i Milici, odselili su u Velicane. Iako su odatle uskoro SESELJI odselili u Do, dio Velicana i danas se naziva Seseljevina. Zbog seobe zbog Turaka (neuspjela pobuna) otuda mnogi rodovi u Popovu slave Lucindan, krsnu slavu Rovcana: Boskovici, Ivanisevici, Ljepave, Batinic, Seselji, Milici i dr.

Jeremija D. Mitrović, 1992

„Preci Ruđera Boškovića prvo su kao vlastela nosili prezime Podkravići odnosno Pokraјčići. Rano su se spustili u Popovo Polje, u selo Orahov Do ili Orahovo gde su se razmnožili kao Boškovići. Iz 1629. sačuvana јe јedna izјava ljudi napisana 'in carattere illiricho overo serviano' (srpskim јezikom). Iz ovog hercegovačkog srpskog sela kraјem 17. veka došao јe u Dubrovnik radi trgovine i Ruđerov otac Nikola, sin Boška Boškovića i Damјane. Kao trgovac brzo se istakao; u Dubrovniku se oženio Italiјankom po ocu, doseljenom iz Italiјe sa koјom јe izrodio više dece. (...) No, trguјući, Nikola Bošković ne samo da јe kao katolik 'srpski pisao' već se kao Srbin interesovao i za srpsku prošlost, svoјe srpsko poreklo i to јe prenosio na svoјu decu, i na Ruđera. (...) Baš zbog ovog njegovog interesovanja za srpsku prošlost, Riđeputi, koјi јe sa Farlatiјem i Koletiјem izdavao čuveno delo u osam svezaka "Illiricum sacrum" zamoli Nikolu da mu opiše srpske starine koјe јe upoznao na svoјim putovanjima po srpskoј zemlji. Tako јe nastao Nikolin spis Relazioni dei Monasterij della Provincia di Rassia - Staroraška sećanja. Nikola јe ovde uneo srpske manastire sve od Hercegovine do Kosova, kako ih јe video i kako o njima što doznao. (...) Eto, iz takve srpske kuće potiču deca Nikole Boškovića i sin mu Ruđer, koјi јe celog veka vodio prepisku sa svoјima u otadžbini, a naročito sa sestrom Anicom i bratom Božom, koga јe stalno opominjao da traga za njihovim porodičnim grbom iz Bosne. Za ovu Ruđerovu prepisku na 'slovinskom' velikohrvatski istoričar Foretić kaže da јe vođena 'na hrvatskom јeziku'. Gde se to Ruđer nazvao Hrvatom? Niјe ni Srbinom, ali znamo da јe žudeo za potvrdom porekla svoga bosanskog semena. Znamo da јe, opisuјući јedan trenutak sa svog putovanja, rekao da su u društvu tu bili on, јoš јedna osoba i јoš 'il Croato'. Šta znači ova Ruđerova izјava o onom trećem prisutnom?"

Vida Vuletića Vukasovića iz Gradca kod Stona, obјavljen u „Јavoru" 1887. godine povodom Boškovićeve godišnjice smrti.

On kaže da јe Ruđer Bošković ostavno neku vrstu fonda za pomoć očevom rodnom Orahovu Dolu u Hercegovini. Fond niјe ugašen sve do pada Dubrovačke republike. Vuletić tim povodom zapisuјe i ovo:

„Treći dan po Maloј Gospi iz Ravnog ću put Zavale. Bio mi јe pratidžijom pandur Niko Kristić. Popovac iz Oraovog Dola od plemena čuvenog matematičara Ruđera Boškovića. Pričao mi јe o njemu priču da valja i konja i vola."Sad sliјedi priča o Ruđeru, navodno, u Puli, koјu јe ispričao neki mornar i koјa јe po svemu narodna fantaziјa. Stari Dubrovčani koјi su bili vјerni katoličkoј crkvi i srpskom rodu sјećali su se Ruđerove sestre Anice u dubokoј starosti i njenih svјedočanstava o srpskim uspomenama u kući Boškovića. U „Јavoru" iz 1887. godine zabilježeno јe da se tada niјe ničim označila godišnjica smrti Ruđera Boškovića u Beogradu, uz ironičnu primјedbu: „Biva neјaci smo i inokosni".

Lujo Vojnović, 1938:„Zar niјe mudriјe, istoriјski verniјe, estetski finiјe ono što јe napisao dr Dušan Nedeljković u predgovoru svome srpsko-hrvatskom prevodu Boškovićevog putopisa iz Carigrada u Poljsku (prvi i јedini prevod Boškovićevog јednog spisa na naš јezik i јoš od Srbina!). U ovome putopisu postaјe sasvim јasno koliko јe iluzorna i besmislena ona svađa, koјa se u naše dane produžuјe, oko toga, јe li Bošković Srbin ili Hrvat. Svoјim 'zavičaјem' i svoјom 'otadžbinom' Bošković јe toliko puta nazvao i uvek samo svoјe rodno mesto Dubrovnik, i prema tome se on zavičaјno i otadžbinski osećao јedino Dubrovčaninom, ali јe imao, to se u ovom putopisu vrlo lepo vidi, i јedno mnogo šire osećanje, osećanje Južkim Slovenom ili Slavincem.

So, we can see. Rudjer Boskovic - Serbian father, Italian mother, Roman Catholic by conversion and because of his mother (his father died when he was very young), Dubrovnik was his homeland. That is more than enough about Boskovic. Beetwen Serbs and Croats - only Serbs have the right to see Boskovic as Serb, but that would wrong too. He was something like Yugoslav, but he can be seen as a Serb because he has clear Serbian orign. Mm.srb (talk) 00:35, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Like I said earlier, avoid contentious labels and aim for a stable info box. And it is pretty obvious that including Bošković will invite IP edit-warring. Timbouctou (talk) 07:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

No arguments, I see. If Ivo Andric, Josip Broz Tito, Rudjer Boskovic, Ivan Gundulic and + That Croat with German roots were not a problem on Croats page why the hell would it be a problem to include Boskovic here, when we know that his father indeed was a Serb ? And the page has been semi-protected so that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. By the way did you even mind reading ? I explained a lot of things about Boskovic. Mm.srb (talk) 09:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

There are "no arguments" because I did not come here to discuss Bošković. Everything you are talking about had been discussed at length at Talk:Ruđer Bošković and the result is the final section of that particular article. Go read it. Secondly, you have absolutely no clue how the discussion on Talk:Croats went and why we ended up having those people there. If you must know, we had a poll in which 15 editors voted. In addition, we defined what a "Croat" means and agreed not to include people who might be contentious and attract vandalism. That's the reason why suggestions like Ante Pavelić, Nikola Tesla or even John Malkovich (who were all sugested) were dropped from the very beginning. Of course, you may decide on a different set of criteria. I was against Andrić but he indeed was born as a Croat, was he not? And anyway how does that exclude him from appearing here? Like I said already - I don't care who you choose, but try avoiding people that you know might piss off IPs. Is that so difficult to understand? Or is it a problem for you that I am a Croat? Because if it is I will find you English and Scottish editors who will give you the same advice. Regards. Timbouctou (talk) 09:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

And you would not have anything to say, because I saied most of it above. Some great definition there - when Tesla or Penkala can be Croats. So typical. Andric indeed was born to Croatian family, but he considered himslef to be Serb and worked for Serbian interests as a diplomat. Of my Lord, which IP vandalazing are you talking about when we got the extra protection level, primarily because of such things ? You are becoming quite paranoid (Or is it a problem for you that I am a Croat). Thanks for the advice. bye Mm.srb (talk) 11:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

First, I think that I deeply disagree that we should be limited by IP´s vandalism. If someone is voted by numerous editors to be included in the infobox, the vandals IP´s opinion is the less important of all, I couldn´t care less about them... Said this, I disagree about your position Timbou that basically goes about the fact that we should guess IP´s vandalism in case someone is included... I think however that at the end we will be perfectly able to find a nice fair group of 12 people, don´t warry. Second, Mm.srb, don´t forget that you are only mentioning options, and your preferences may not be shared by others, so don´t take the responses on your proposals so personally. We will have more options and this is a process with two phases: first of numbering options and selection, that we are just begining now, and afterwords we´ll have a debate on it, so I think that we have no need whatsoever to get overheated in this inital phase... FkpCascais (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I feel sorry If you think that I am giving any cind of decision out here. First of all, I think that we should call few more fellow editors. Second, I think that we need to see is this info box going to be 6x3, 7x3 (my suggestions) or something diffrent. Third - at the begining we should put few "mush-have people" such as: Stefan Nemanja, Saint Sava, Nikola Tesla, Mihajlo Pupin, Ruđer Bošković(?), Novak Djokovic etc. I want good info box as much as you do. Mm.srb (talk) 12:59, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

No problem, I agree with you, I´ll post a notice about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Serbia to see if more people join and give their touth on this. FkpCascais (talk) 19:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

What do you think about adding Nino Belov and King Tvrtko I at picture of famous Serbs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.143.175.78 (talk) 22:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Controversial. I think the infobox as it is now is good enough.--Zoupan (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

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Religion

The religious section mentions that, throughout History, Serbs suffered for their Eastern Orthodox religious beliefs and goes on to mention Ottoman islamization and the Ustashis. These examples are correct and worthy to be mentioned. However, why is there not a word about the latest / most recent round of persecutions, i.e. state atheism under Tito's communist autocracy? Marshal Tito killed, terrorized, repressed thousands of religious believers. I believe this should be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.138.33.196 (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you begin with adding this to the Persecution of Serbs-article.--Zoupan (talk) 21:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Divac's image

Could someone change Vlade Divac's image ? It's dead.

And could we change Mokranjac with Nikola Pašić, Stojan Novaković or someone else ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mm.srb (talk • contribs) 08:53, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The picture that was inserted probably did`t had a valid license.. And there isn`t a valid picture on wikipedia to replace it. First we should find a suitable picture of Divac, under free license use and upload it to wikipedia. Afterwards we can add it here too. Adrian (talk) 09:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Images of Serbs

How about we add another famous female Serb in the collection of images of famous Serbs? Nadezda Petrovic is the only female we have up there, it seems so male-dominated. How about adding Ana Ivanovic? Or someone else like Ivana Zigon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lumosnight (talk • contribs) 00:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that we should make a whole new infobox: 3x7, 6x4 or 8x3. Two or three women should be included, and the most prominent candidates are: Marina Abramović, Ana Ivanovic, Jelena Janković, Svetlana Ražnatović, Ksenija Atanasijević and Desanka Maksimovic... It's really unfortunate that our senior editors do not wish to discuss about this. It seems that someone really wants that this (his) infobox stays unchanged. Mm.srb (talk) 12:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes) says:

“When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content.”

• This is not article or list of notable Serbs. This is article about ethnic group. The pictures of notable Serbs would only prevent the readers to "identify key facts at a glance".
• Also, the Template:Infobox ethnic group says nothing about the pictures of the notable people that declared themselves as members of a certain ethnic group.
• The purpose of the infobox is not to be a navigation bar, but to to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears, in this case about the ethnic group.
• Additionally, it is obvious that it can create a space for disruptive editing when there are disputes about ethnicity of some notable people.

My conclusion: Although there is a practice to place such pictures in the infoboxes, I think that this practice violates requests of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes) and therefore I am against it. If there is consensus that list of notable members of one ethnic group should be presented to the readers, there are navigaton bars and other types of templates and lists available for this purpose which can be added in the article in separate template.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Alright. But I think that adding Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (or switching Čarnojević with him) would help summarizing key facts about the article i.e. nation. The same thing is with Nikola Pašić. Mm.srb (talk) 00:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't support adding Sokolović, and Čarnojević was far more important. Regarding another female, which could possibly compare to the others in the infobox? --Zoupan 17:17, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Sokolović is indeed important from another aspect. If anyone thinks that it would be controversial, check out Croats. All the historical facts are proving his Serbian origin. We should include Pašić, because we have no politician in the infobox. I suggest removing Orfelin or Mokranjac. It is indeed sad that two or three editors are doing whatever they consider the best with this infobox. It is completely undemocratic and aggaints Wikipedia's policy. Mm.srb (talk) 19:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, please discuss here what changes you want, and we need criteria. I think it's becoming too big, however, Germans has 30 people, but the portraits are smaller. 23 editor added another line. I think Obilić should be removed. The inclusion of Draža is disputed. Pašić declared as Serb but had Bulgarian ethnic origin, he was however one of the most influental Serbian politicans. Milanković should be added. Sokolović had Serb ethnic origin, but was Ottoman, nonetheless a very powerful historical figure. Marina is a good candidate. What should we do?--Zoupan 02:33, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

My opinion is that we should vote. Not just you and me, but some twenty editors. That is the best way. We should vote on the number of figures included, and of course which should be. And the fact that Pašić is of Vlach origin (or Bulgarian) does not mean anything. Mm.srb (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

That's not a good idea. This is not some popularity contest. I agree with Zoupan regarding Obilić (a legendary person, though probably based on a historical one), Draža (controversial), and Milanković (should be added). As for adding another woman, how about Helen Delich Bentley? Here we have a woman, a notable politician (even a major US port is named after her), and a representative of Serbian diaspora. I'd say that Delich Bentley is more notable than Marina. Vladimir (talk) 15:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Who said that it is ? Voting is the best way to balance all-around, and that is how most of the nations did it. Jovan Vladimir is also a nice choice. I prefer Abramović over Bentley, and Milla Jovovich or Karl Malden are very nice choices. If Tito could be included on Croats page, I do not see why Mihailović should not be included here. Mm.srb (talk) 18:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that the infobox has far too many images. I suggest that we create a 4x4 infobox (with 16 images overall, of course) and that we should decide which 16 famous Serbs are most worthy of being placed in that infobox.23 editor (talk) 03:53, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The collage looks terrible (Link), no offense, just look at Mokranjac and Divac. Novak's photo is not found on Commons (copyright?), and you've swapped some people, we need consensus for real. Delich Bentley, Jovovich and Malden belong in Serbian-Americans, to be honest. I have created Talk:Serbs/InfoboxImages where we can discuss it further, and I will add the link to the talk page header.--Zoupan 06:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The map is a shovinistic and nacistic serbian politic

The map is a shovinistic and nacistic serbian politic! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.244.177.109 (talk) 20:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Call for revision of certain paragraphs in the Middle Ages sub-section of the History section

I am really delighted to see such a wonderful and balanced article slowly emerging, however as I suspect there might still be a high propensity of controversy in any subject pertaining to South Slavic history I prefer to bring up these few following issues before performing any actual revisions on my own. Whereas the main articles History of Serbia and Medieval Serbia are largely successful at refraining from inflamed rhetorics and avoiding unsubstantiated conclusions marked by personal views, the following two paragraphs in the Middle Ages sub-section of the current article are less so impressive:

The Serbs were also a dominant population in Bosnia which after 1204, had its own rulers and dynasties, only to be upgraded into powerful kingdom under King Tvrtko I Kotromanić, crowned by the double crown of Bosnia and Serbia in the monastery of Mileševa in 1377. The Duchy of Herzegovina was established later by Stefan Vukčić Kosača, powerful local landlord. Being a herzog of Saint Sava, the whole area, reffering to his title became known as Herzegovina.

As I am sure any historian, or even so layman, of the South Slavic subjects is aware of, to impose any definite ethnic identity on the medieval Bosnians apart from recognizing them as the Slavs who lived in Bosnia is considered highly unsubstantiated. The current formulation of Serbs being the "dominant population" alludes to a form of medieval Bosnian demographic majority comprised of a consciousness of Serb ethnicity; an inflammatory claim lacking proof. What is more, the crowning of King Tvrtko I Kotromanić taking place in Mileševa is significantly contested and ought not be presented as an absolute fact. Thirdly, duke Stefan Vukčić Kosača possessed many different titles througout his power of which "herzog of Saint Sava" was merely one. Prior to assuming this title as a diplomatic appeal he held the titles of Herzog of Bosnia and Herzog of Hum and the Coast, hence the subsequent inheritance of his title on the name of the present-day region cannot be hinted as the result of him assuming the title of Herzog of Saint Sava. In this context, the holy Saint Sava is irrelevant to the history of the contemporary toponym Herzegovina as the title Herzog was merely a way in which Stefan Vukčić Kosača dealt his lands. I can nevertheless unfortunately see why it may be of interest to link the toponym of Herzegovina to a Serb Orthodox saint on loose grounds.

The second and last paragraph pertains the following writing and continues the same type of inflammatory phrasing:

Partially recovered under the prince and despot Stefan Lazarević, the Despotate of Serbia, frequently attacked by the Ottomans, under the weak dynasty of Branković eventually colapsed after the losses of cities of Novo Brdo and Prizren in 1455 By 1459, Serbia was conquered by the Ottomans, while the remaining Serbian states: the Kingdom of Bosnia, the Duchy of Saint Sava (Herzegovina) and Montenegro (formerly Zeta) were lost in 1463, 1481 and 1499 respectivly..

In this regard, little doubt exists among historians that the Kingdom of Bosnia was not subordinated, it was on its own, a nation living its independent life and governing itself. Thus, to define the Kingdom of Bosnia (and Herzegovina which was part of the Bosnian kingdom, once more by irrelevant association to Saint Sava) as a Serbian state is sadly a severe bias and personal point of view requiring extensive revision.

In conclusion, these two paragraphs made me quite disappointed to the otherwise so great progress with the article in question and related main articles. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 13:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Unless there is any input to expect from concerned editors I shall imminently proceed to carry out appropriate revisions. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 02:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 July 2012

I believe Marina Abramovic is deserving of being a representative of the Serbian people. If Vlade Divac and Novak Djokovic can have their photos displayed, she most certainly deserves it. One of the most important artists of the 20th and 21st centuries. Also, there are no women represented in the photos on the page.

71.187.146.19 (talk) 14:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That is a good idea but is there a suitable image of Marina? Adrian (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

If you can provide a compatibly licensed image, we could boldly add it to the article on your behalf. Either find one at commons, or find one with acceptable licensing at go to Wikipedia:Files for upload. Once you find an image, reopen this request or make a new one. Monty₈₄₅ 00:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 July 2012 - Language and Population in the US

First of all, here is an update on the total population in the US for 2010: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/ACS/10_SF4/B01003//popgroup~558

Second, here is detailed information on the ethnic Serbian group in the US: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/ACS/10_SF4/DP02//popgroup~558 From this second link, it can be seen that over 100,000 self-declared Serbs speak only English language at home, thus English needs to be added as one of the languages in the info box. I believe similar information can be found for Serbs living in Germany, France, Italy, UK and similar, so someone else can look into that.

Truthseeker43 (talk) 06:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

 Not done. After a few more edits you should be able to correct the article yourself. I am just trying to clear the backlog of requests.--Canoe1967 (talk) 06:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Ethnology/Ethnogenesis

Why has the "Ethnology" section been removed? I would like to see that section (which now has been divided between History and "Identity") at the beginning of the article, not after History. What do you think?--Zoupan 21:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that 23 editor should follow Wikipedia:Editing policy which says: Be cautious with major changes: consider discussing them first. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Syria

There are Serbs in Syria. 142.197.8.220 (talk) 00:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There were 40 Serbian citizens evacuated from Syria two weeks ago. I doubt there is a considerable number of Serbs in Syria (a community), but do you have any number?--Zoupan 01:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Prema zvaničnim podacima u Siriji je pre evakuacije bilo oko 200 srpskih državljana. Though I have heard that there is considerable number of Serb women married into Syria.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added "ca. 200 (estimation)" to Serbian diaspora-list.--Zoupan 19:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

"The Serbian language is considered a standardized register of Serbo-Croatian"

Serbian language can not be standardized register of Serbo-Croatian as Serbian language is older than Serbo-Croatian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markoni1010 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

No. See the articles on Serbo-Croatian and Serbian languages. These matters are now well-settled both in academia, and in Wikipedia policy.HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Things must be changed!

somebody is cleary lowering the number of serbs from year to year and on the othe rhand highering up the number of croats.

how is it possible that number of serbs in world drasticly dropped from 12-14 million to only 10 million, and number of croats drastically raised from 6,5 or 7 million to up to 9 million all of a sudden?

how is it possible that there are 4,5 million more croats in world besides 4,5 million in balkans, and out of 8,5 million serbs in balkans only 1,5 million serbs in world? as long as i know serbs had more wars, reasons for leaving their lands, but also a large nuber of people makes a large number of people leave lands... so it would be normal and civilized to put these numbers at.... croats around 7 million in world and serbs up to 12 million in world, (as you should know that throughout whole history, the number of serbs was always one time bigger or more, than the number of croats)... figures for macedonians are also massive... there are 1,5 million macedonians in their country.... how can there be exact or even higher number of them in world? while number of serbs is that much lower? ... no. of macedonians worldwide should be put to 2-2,5 million max. in world..... i live in diaspora myself and believe me i can precise very good.... and also by the old datas that were available in past years.... for the number of peoples....

also number of serbian language speakers used to be 11 million few years ago, how can it just fall to up to 9 million suddeny? .... there are almost 9 million native speakers only on balkans... than in diaspora believe me, serbian diaspora is about 3,5 to 4 million strong and out of ca. 4 million between 1,5 and 2 million serbs speak the language..... while there are also second language speakers... atleast half of albanians in kosovo can speak serbian, about 70% of slovenians can speak or understand serbian (or serbo-croatian) and also a couple of hundreds of thousands of macedonian can do it also....

′′′i have posted a link which shows the official data of researches on estimations of number of serbs in diaspora. it is the official website of serbian diaspora!′′′

http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=2056

so however we turn it (it is known that there were 8,5 million serbs in former yugoslavia) and that today the number is slightly lower due to moving to other countries and lower birth rate in serbia alone) if there are 6 million serbs in serbia and about 2.120 000 more serbs in neighbouring countries as it is written (and they probably forgot to add data for kosovo (130 000 - 140 000 serbs) coz i see nowhere kosovo written under the data... then there should be about 8,35 million serbs in the balkans right? .. then add an addititional 3,5 to 4 million serbs in diaspora which is written here http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=2056 and we gain a number of about 12 or 12 million + strong in the whole world . right? .... there are also numbers written for number of serbs in usa (about 1 mil.) and germany about 800 000 as i wrote my self when i was editing but then it got deleted.... so i would PLEASE ask someone to tell me... is this a right ref. i just gave out? can it be verified? its an official site with official data on the numbers o fserbs throughout world, and you can find same or very similar results on other sites if you check em out.... and please use this ref. i gave you http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=2056 ... to write the new data on, coz i dont know how to add references or similar things myself on wikipedia, coz i just made account, so im new here. i am my self living in diaspora and i know pretty well the already existing data on wikipedia isnt correct.... i would kindly ask if someone can change that data (also the data on american serbs where only census data is written), while everybody knows there are alot more serbs by ancestry in usa (around 350 000 in chicago alone)not to mention rest of usa... im sure that alongside the census datas there can be added the estimation datas ... so please someone give an answer to this, and if everything is righty right and ok, pls change those certainly false datas on total worldwide number of serbs.....

i would also recommend that under the pictures of famous serbs --- king alexander karađorđević of yugoslavia could be added, along with knez mihajlo, famous actor bata zivojinovic (more famous in china than in rest of the world), and legendary actor dragan nikolic and most beautiful tennis female player ana ivanovic could be added. i also think mor epeople could be added under categories of americans serbs, australian serbs, bosnian serbs (where is legendary savo milosevic?)and so on and so on.... pls — Preceding unsigned comment added by Правичност (talk • contribs) 07:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

About the number of Serbs things can be changed but only if presented with a reliable source. [Srpska dijaspora] doesn`t seems to be a reliable source and it is not the official page of the Serbian diaspora. This is the official page of the Serbian diaspora. If you find some reliable source about this numbers of course the article could be changed. Adrian (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

how about these articles i found!? ... it mentions the same number again (around 4 million) if you read , and its from the serbian news... http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/planeta.301.html:386716-Razlicite-procene-o-broju-Srba

but i think this is the most reliable source..... "GOLDEN SOURCE" from a serbian unity congress page and the page even has national sponsors (telekom srbija etc...) as you can see two countings were made (by the nin magazine and by the ministry of diaspora ) i found the second counting more realistic eventough their estimations of total serbs in world are very close (12,17 mil. or 12,45 million serbs in world) ... i posted the start page and the second one i posted is the page`s pdf of reaserch results:

http://www.serbianunity.com/serbianunitycongress/statistic

http://www.serbianunity.com/serbianunitycongress/pdf/world_of_serbs/Serbs_Around_the_World_Stat_Table_detail.pdf

datas per country on wikipedia should also be changed as per these datas... Правичност (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Правичност (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that a sense-check using a recently published reputable encyclopaedia would be he best way to check if these figures check out. None of your sources look particularly reliable. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 20:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I also don`t think that serbianunity.com is a reliable source as well but this one is reliable [Vecernje novosti], a respectable media in Serbia. Sources from newspapers and similar are considered as reliable but I can manage to find anything in this source about the total number of Serbs. Pravicnost can you please state where in this source (Vecernje Novosti) is stated the number of Serbs? Thank you.Adrian (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

9.9 million serbs? how?

with all that data on page "Serbs" ... someone still lowered the number of Serbs in the world for some reason... without any sources or anything...

on the page it says : that nearly 6 million serbs live in serbia and atleast 2.120.000 in neighbouring countries, after that it says that 3,5 million serbs live in diaspora... someone is bad at mathematics? or just wants to lower serbian population by nearly 2 million? please...

~6 million (serbia) + 2.120.000 (neighboring countries) + 3,5 million (serbian diaspora) = ! ~11.620.000 ! (or otherwise somewhere around that number clearly)

if you doubt in my calculations, then try the counting yourselves... there is no way it can be 9.9 (or 10,5 million as it used to be few days ago). Правичност (talk) 22:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I can`t manage to find who made the change from 10.5 to 9.9 in the history of the article and I went back until March. Maybe I just skipped it somehow, if you know who made the change please provide the diff so we can check it.

About the math, from the article when I add all countries I get something around 10+ ! Before making this change maybe we should wait for somebody else to participate, to discuss this problem. Something is wrong with this number but I don`t know what. Adrian (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Numbers from the article

• 6 million
• 1.7
• 0.2
• 0.178
• 0.1 from the rest of countries in the Balkan
• Rest of Europe
• 0.56
• 0.35
• 0.18
• 0.12
• 0.09 (France, I took the middle number since it is a dead link)
• 0.07
• 0.06
• 0.05
• aprox 0.055 - Rest of Europe countries
• Americas and Australia
• 0.365
• When we add all this numbers we get something around 10.078 million. I will make the change on the article (Approximately 10 million).Adrian (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

PLEASE READ ALL ...this is my answer to both themes at the end of the 2 main discussions .... --- First of all im sorry but i do not know who has made that change of the total population... 2nd of all Thank you Adrian for changing the article based on the counted numbers beneath the total population (eventough data about Kosovo Serbs is still missing in that tabelle (ca. 130 - 140 000 serbs), however there still exists a problem with this number as you said... and ty for posting this reliable source [Vecernje novosti] ... and as you asked, i will reveal where the number is stated, by making copies of the texts and translating them (you can also translate by yourselves to make sure) ....

at the beggining of the article it says that exact estimations on number of the serbs (in diaspora) dont exist, however estimations also reveal a number of 4 million. (Precizni podaci o broju Srba u svetu ne postoje, a procene "prebacuju" i 4 miliona.)

Beneath; a number of 294.000 or around 300.000 is widely described as a number showing only; how many people with serbia`s passports temp. work or live outside their country atm (according to 2011 census). so dont get confused by this number.

Real estimated number "they" (country and communities of serbian immigrants around the globe) have concluded is around 4 million.

!Beaneath you can see the key statement!:

U Ministarstvu vera i dijaspore kažu da je potpuno precizan podatak o našim ljudima u svetu gotovo nemoguće dobiti.

- Naša je procena da je ukupan broj Srba u regionu i dijaspori veći od četiri miliona - kaže ministar vera i dijaspore Srđan Srećković.

--- (translated) - > In Ministry of religions and diaspora, they say that a specifically precise data about our people around the globe is impossible to get.

- Our estimation is, that a total number of Serbs in region and diaspora is larger than four million - says the Minister of religions and diaspora Mr. Srdjan Sreckovic.

i want to add that while he was mentioning "region and diaspora" this ofcorse exludes the number of Serbs in states where Serbs are a constituent nation (Serbia (also Kosovo) and Bosnia & Herzegovina (and in past it used to be Montenegro also)) ... others would be mentioned as region (Croatia, Montenegro, Romania, Albania etc..) as this article is about the number of serbs in the world; and not about the numbe rof serbs in their homelands (SRB, BiH)... otherwise it would sound funny if he would mean by that , that only 4+ million serbs reside on whole balkans and rest of the world - when we know 6 million serbs live in serbia alone, another 1,5 in bosnia and 140k in Kosovo (if not counted under Serbia) and we all know these countries are homelands to serbs by constitution... (Kosovo -if looking it as a coutnry independent from serbia it is also a state where albanians and serbs are a constituent nation).

in a grey box on the right of the articles page it says:

SRBA NAJVIŠE U SAD SRPSKA dijaspora najbrojnija je u Americi, gde živi oko 560. 000 naših sunarodnika. Na drugom mestu je Nemačka, gde je oko 400.000 Srba, a prati je Austrija sa 190.000 i Kanada sa 180.000 ljudi. Više od 100.000 ljudi broje i srpske zajednice u Francuskoj, Švajcarskoj i Australiji. U Švedskoj ih je 70.000, a Velikoj Britaniji 55.000. Većina Srba i njihovih potomaka okuplja se u oko 200 hramova SPC.

which means (translation ->).. MOST OF THE SERBS ARE IN THE USA where aprox. 560 000 serbs live, after that it says ... germany 400 000, austria 190 000, Canada 180 000, more than 100 000 in France, Swiss and Australia. etc. etc... eventough i considered some of these datas as dated... coz newer sources reveal a much higher number in some of the countries ... like austria for example (350 000) and its widely known among folk that more than 110.000 serbs live in Vienna alone - on wikipedia its written that after chicago, vienna is said to be home of the largest serbian population outside of the balkans or serbia. on this video , american news guy states theres about a quarter of a million serbs living in chicago area which is the second most populated city by serbs on the world besides Belgrade (he jsut mentioned chicago while with an aditional Illinois area the population of serbs is around 350 000 according to most of the sources if you check up around the net (even on the serbian americans wiki page) btw ... ignore the theme about an awful movie and just check the last few seconds of the video from 1.49 (eventough i know its not a good reference) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vel-WvZKbUk

hope my statements and translatians made some success id just like to conclude that if they estimate 4+ million serbs in the world ... region and diaspora (outside serbian homelands serbia (inc. kosovo serbs) and bosnia (and / or maybe montenegro - as serbs lost constitution rights quite recently in that country and were recognized as a minority among others - eventhough counting second largest nation in MNE and the largest language native group) number alltogether is = ca. 7,5 - 8 mil.) and + 4 million rest of the (southeast european) region and diaspora (around the globe) the final number would be 11,5-12 or 12+ million serbs in total .... and let me remind you that ive given you a number of sources which would say the exact number (3.5 or 4 million) serbs in diaspora, similar or exact as this article says. Id also want to add this article - where it cleary says that serbian language is being spoken by 12 million people (serbian national television news): http://www.rts.rs/page/stories/sr/story/125/Dru%C5%A1tvo/45760/Srpski+jezik+govori+12+miliona+ljudi+.html

but in the end,if we think of it, and calculate it all...it all adds up! the data that was mentioned on multiple sources and even on this wiki page, about ca. 3.5 million serbs living in diaspora, (this data that you can find anywhere!) is as it seems CORRECT, just add an additional 500 000 people from the sorounding region (excluding SRB and BiH) and you have it! 4 million! as this guy mentions to be, (remember he/the page mentioned more than 4 million serbs in the region and diaspora) it all adds up!

Region: (CRO: 200k + MNE: ~180k + SLO,ROM,MAC,ALB,BUL and HUN: 110k+) = "~500k", then add "3,5 million+" serbs in diaspora and its more than 4 million as the estimations say. then add also serbian population from two native countries serbia (inc. kosovo serbs) and bosnia (republika srpska) and you get about 7,5-7,8 million serbs to which we add 4 million+ (region and diaspora) = ca. 12 million around the world - which is exactly the same number as the earlier datas of serbian population worldwide was showing on wikipedia, (it actually used to show even 12-13 mil.)... but then someone gone changing it to 11, then 10,5 etc... now it ended up on 10, while they risened croatian population from 6-7 to up to 8,5 million in that time for example... very unrealistic whoever has decided on changing these datas some year ago in first place. However i turn it i must say i was ight in the first place when i stated that up to 8,5 million serbs live in balkans and another 3,5 million in diaspora - houalla - le 12 million... agree? Правичност (talk) 05:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

About the Minister of religions and diaspora Mr. Srdjan Sreckovic said(and Vecernje Novosti) the number of Serbs in diaspora is over 4 million. Diaspora means every country outside Serbia. About Kosovo, I don`t know how is that classified here but that only changes approximately 200 000 up or down. If we take 6 000 000 + 4 000 000 = 10 000 000. With a note in the article that a higher estimate is available. According to this, the present state of the article is fine by me. Under diaspora is also Bosnia and others even if they are constituent nation.

Youtube is not a reliable source. Please read WP:SOURCE to understand what can be accepted as a reliable source. You must understand how wikipedia works, you stated a lot of data but nothing to back it up with. Without sources that state what you said here I am afraid nothing more can be done to this article.

About the Serbian language link you provided, that is a reliable source and I will look at that article right away. GreetingsAdrian (talk) 19:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

- i agree to you on everything except for number of serbs and diaspora again.... pls tell me, how can serbs in bosnia (mainly republic of srpska) be counted as a diaspora? Bosnia is a country that wouldnt be a coutnry if it wasnt made in two enteties - Federation of BiH (the Bosniak (Muslim) - Croat federation, and Republc of Srpska (an autonomous republic of Bosnian Serbs inside Bosnia) , its made up of 3 nations, if one of these 3 nations would make a claim by themselves there would be a war...

are you telling me that bosnia or republic of srpska doesnt belong to serbs? does it belong to bosniaks (bosnian muslims) more maybe? or to croats more maybe? does any of 2 nations have a bigger right on claim of bosnia? how could that be possible? or does bosnia belong to some other nation or people in europe or in america maybe? my friend you know this cant be true, bosnia is no serbian diaspora, bosnia is homeland to serbs just like serbia... the only difference is that bosnia has 3 constituent nations , and all 3 nations have a right to equal claim of rights, and all 3 nations lead and present the country, because this is the only way this coutnry can exist as a souvereign state... when i go to visit family there it says welcome to republika srpska when i enter the state, everything is written in serbian cyrillic, road signs, newspapers, shops.... republika srpska has its own president who represents serbian interests....

but other than that it makes no difference to bosniaks and bosnian croats who live inside entity of republika srpska... because they have the same status as they have in their entity of federation of BiH. just like serbs have same rights in other parts of bosnia inside BiH - when i say rights i mean, same official languages (in every part of that country) everywhere serbian,bosnian and croatian are official... everywhere orthodox, catholic churches and mosques are standing, every town every village has bosniak, croat and serbian political parties... etc.. etc....

so sorry mate, but bosnia is no serbian diaspora... serbs cant be classified only by serbia, if you know history, you will see that serbs used to be actually the most numerous peope in bosnia in history, and bosnia was also under serbia in midevil times etc. etc... there is much to learn ... this is why i think he didnt just state serbs out of serbia.... because when we are talking about serbian people only, then we cannot ignore bosnian serbs under no hand, ... when we talk about serbian minorities we talk about croatia, romania etc.... but never about serbia, bosnia and montenegro ... eventough montenegrin nationalists are preventing serbian rights and serbian history in that country, and have also canceled serbs as constituent nation in montenegro which is a shame, coz montenegro was just a serb nation state in its whole history... all fo thsi happening now has just its routs from communist times montenegro and an idea of inventing montenegrin nation and language independent from serbian. and i know this coz my ancient routes are from this land which is swarming by serbian orthodox churches hundreds and even thousand years old.)

anywaysss.... i just wanna conclude that serbia and bosnia are nation states of serbs and also kosovo (eventough bosnia has 2 more and kosovo 1 more, constituent peoples) and that cant be ignored especially from that minister... my actual opinion is that when he said region he actually meant everything around serbia (and kosovo), bosnia and even montenegro as these countries or egions cant be classified as serbian diaspora especially not bosnia.

its impossible that there are only 10 million serbs in world as almost 10 million serbs lived in ex-yugoslavia in 1991 and even back then there was a huge serbian diaspora... i thought this source was to reveal a 3.5 to 4 million strong diaspora, but now you say that he ignored one of the serbian lands - bosnia (and its also a croat land besides croatia, and a bosniak land) ... idk which source can i provide more but i know this cant be true... the i compare serbs and croats articles .. and its jsut impossible that serbs who were always atleast 1x times more numerous than croats throughout whole history (when there were 5,5 million serbs there were 2,5 croats in yugoslavia, when there were 8,5 million serbs there were 4.7 million croats in yugoslavia only) , its impossible that their number is now almost identical to serbian population, serbs coulnt just vanish... for example...

I have no idea how the other numbers are arrived at, but I checked the Australian Bureau of Statistics census results for 2011 and they were reduced by 20-30,000 because of previous practices of counting anyone who said they were "Yugoslav" as "Serbian". This was fixed in the 2011 census, with the resulting reduction. I have updated the template accordingly. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

i have few questions

10 million serbs? maybe 10 million "pure" serbs, but where are people of serbian descent?

- is it possible that a nation (Serbs) who were in 1991 over 9 million strong in the balkans, have ONLY 1 million people in diaspora?

-When they had hundreds of wars, political and economical reasons to leave their homelands (nowadays SRB,BiH,MNE,CRO) in history, while for example, Swedes (eentough a smaller nation) a "peaceful nation" throughout history.. count so many more in diaspora nowadays? is this possible?

-I live in diaspora and i got alot of family members like other serbs around the world and i cannot accept this lie. do you know that around 500.000 people left Serbia (only Rep. of Serbia) in period of 1990-2000? How many left it tens and hundreds of years ago? and how many Serbs left sorounding countries?

-There were 20.000 Montenegrin Serbs in USA at the end of the 19th cent., around 17.000 Norwegians were in that country at that time too. And today there are more than 5 million american norwegians and only 172.000 serbs in usa?

-You must understand that Serbs were under pressure of communism in the former state of Yugoslavia, therefore they had to start to declare as Montenegrins, alot of them who were in love with Yugoslavia declared as Yugoslavs (75% of them were of Serbian heritage).... but today alot of them still declare Serbian as their maternal language or they are Serbian orthodox Christians--- therefore i cannot understand, if you dont count these people under Serbs, why cant you count them atleast under people of Serbian descent. We should add estimations of Serbian ancestral diaspora in infobox maybe.

-And how many Serbian Americans are there actually in the USA? When most are illegal citizens, others declare as Yugoslavs, Slavs, Eastern European etc... eventough they carry Serbian surnames, either speak little serbian or were raised to be Serbian Orthodox Christians....

-Check out this article (it says there are 400 000 Serbs only in Chicago and illinois area, while there are 1-2 million American Serbs in whole USA, eventough those are estimations) ..

http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/185441/Samo-u-Cikagu--zivi-oko-400000-Srba

Правичност (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

G'day. Most of what you have written about is just original research, which I'm afraid isn't allowed on WP. The figures for Australia for example, are collected by the government in a census where people are given the opportunity to say what their ancestry is. 60,000+ last year. Suggesting that some of the people say they are something other than Serbs are in fact Serbs realy is just nonsense. The US stats are from their equivalent of the Australian Bureau of Statistics. People are given the opportunity to say what their ancestry is. If people say something other than Serb, you can't just claim them! Some people assimilate, regardless of their names, and consider themselves American or Australian. I note that quite a few of the numbers are from governmental statistics bureaus, not just the ones I've mentioned, but also Hungary, Spain etc. You are not seriously suggesting that we ignore those figures are you? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

-No, but i suggest we include also official datas like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_diaspora

which say there are 3.5 million or 4 million serbs outside serbian native lands (serbia (and kosovo), croatia, bosnia, montenegro). its true what you said, but you also must have in mind that illegal citizens arent participating in any of censuses, therefore they cannot delcare at all. and as i said there are many illegal serb citizens in usa and around world, there are also those who didnt declare at all, but left the ethnicity, ancestry or maternal language field empty, but still know or classify themselves as serbs... so i suggested that besides those "presice numbers of censuses" we could atleast add a higher estimation of Total Serb population worldwide (for those illegals, for those who stayed neutral on census but privately consider themselves serbs, for those who didnt even get a chance to declare and for those whos census datas are far dated...)

All im saying is: Leave the precise datas for each country (by census sources) but if official estimations say there are 3,5 million serbs outside serb homelands (srb,cro,mne,bos)- then why not write total population estimation as 11,5 million + or 12 million as the calculations would say (8 - 8,5 million + 3,5 million)... http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/planeta.301.html:386716-Razlicite-procene-o-broju-Srba

and if it says 315.000 can claim serbian descent in turkey, and 328.000 declared as yugoslavs in usa... why not add that data in total population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

I also suggest we add South Africa among other flags - As there are 10-20 000 serbs in RSA by estimation

http://www.svetitoma.org/Modules_FE/layout1/displayfull.asp?id=1#

http://glassrbije.org/%C4%8Dlanak/kako-%C5%BEive-srbi-u-ju%C5%BEnoj-africi-otac-pantelejmon

Правичност (talk) 01:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I completely disagree with that approach. We need to use the appropriate census data (only) from the countries concerned. Anything else is WP:OR. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)