Talk:Seneca Village/Archive 1

Archive 1

Delisted GA

There are no images. slambo 17:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Quote vs. Paraphrase

This article contains text copied verbatim from a New York Times article, especially the section "Existing Evidence". While it is cited, it is formated like a paraphrase, not like a quote. --Secundus Zephyrus (talk) 20:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

No Citations for the Name?

I come to this article looking for early citations of the name "Seneca Village" but don't see any. Research elsewhere brings up one reference to the settlement as "Yorkville" but there is nothing for "Seneca Village."

There were many improvised neighborhoods in central and upper Manhattan during this period. If this area was indeed commonly known as Seneca Village, we should have at least one early citation, from a newspaper or speech or maybe an illustration in Valentine's Manual. Before speculating on the origins of the name, first establish that Seneca Village was, indeed, its generally accepted name. Sallieparker (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

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GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Seneca Village/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 19:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Initial comments

I've stumbled across this article and enjoyed reading it, so I'll do the review. On an initial reading I see no reason for an immediate fail, so I'll begin a more detailed review. Mujinga (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I also note this was a GA before and then delisted, but that was way back in 2005 Mujinga (talk) 19:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Lead

• I'll do this last
• I think the lead needs some work to reflect the article. It would be good to have a third paragraph reflecting current research and beginning with the already existing sentence Several vestiges of Seneca Village's existence have been found over the years, including burial plots.
• paragraph one: the first such community in the city and possibly some Native Americans i don't see these assertions being mentioned in the article. maybe a sentence on the confused etymology.
• paragraph two: pretty good as it stands, with the last sentence being broken off for paragraph three. Needs a sentence or two on the demise.
• paragraph three: we can have more about the rediscovery and recent developments

Etymology

• Minor point to begin with but it's good to keep the references in numerical order and I can see that needs doing through the article. Here we have [2][1], [4][1], [5][2][1], and [5][1].
  • Fixed.

• Later in the article this still needs fixing Mujinga (talk)

21:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• That's still the case in the Demise section Mujinga (talk) 13:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• One theory suggests the word “Seneca” came from a Roman philosopher named Lucius Annaeus Seneca, whose book was often read by African American activists - i would suggest: One theory suggests the word "Seneca" came from the Roman philosopher Seneca the Younger, whose book Moral Epistles was often read by African American activists - this clarifies which book and gives straight apostrophes, as well as using Seneca's common name
  • Fixed.
• In Upstate New York, the Hamlet of "Seneca Falls" was established in the 17th century. Notable strides in Women's Rights and civil rights were made in this area. - i don't think update or hamlet need capitalisation. Seneca Falls, New York is not mentioned in the source so well need another ref
  • I couldn't find it in any source, so removed. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• The Mullins ref seems to be copied from the Daily Plant
  • Removed duplicated.
• As regards the Underground Railroad maybe it's good to add it could have been a codeword
  • Done.

Existence

• http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/seneca_village/htm/history.htm appears to be a deadlink

ah, should be http://projects.mcah.columbia.edu/seneca_village/htm/history.htm

Fixed

• I'd rather have numerical order in the streetnames, not sure if any policy is being contravened though :)
  • @Mujinga: What do you mean? Like 6th and 7th Avenues, rather than 7th and 6th? I don't think this makes a big difference. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
    • yes exactly i find it reads a bit awkwardly so I wanted to check, but I'm ok with it being that way. Mujinga (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
      • as a further point, i'm seeing 81st not 82nd in some sources including https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/nyregion/uncovering-the-ruins-of-new-yorks-first-free-black-settlement.html which is used as a ref here Mujinga (talk) 19:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Development

• Unfortunately the Blakinger ref is blocked in Europe, would be great to have an archived version to check
  • https://web.archive.org/web/20160518101320/https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/seneca-village-black-town-razed-central-park-article-1.2639611.
    • thanks!
• African Methodist Episcopal- would be good to follow it with (AME) so then the acronym is easy to understand in the next sentence
  • Done.
• The one-story frame-and-board houses in Seneca Village were referred to as "shanties", which reflected their roughshod outward appearance, though some of the houses resembled log cabins. While the houses were not professionally constructed, their interiors were better off than the cramped tenements of lower Manhattan.[17][18] - the Berman ref (right now #18) seems better used to support the shanties assertion in the previous sentence, since it doesn't say anything to support the following sentence
  • Fixed.
• Some residents also had gardens and barns, and many residents obtained animal feed from two nearby bone disposal plants at 66th and 75th Streets - that's not backed by the source (page70) which says garbage fed animals and the bone-boiling plants took the bones
  • Fixed, I hope. I wanted to emphasize that there were bone boiling plants. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Inhabitants

• At this time in New York City's history, most of the city's population lived below 14th Street, and the region above 59th Street was only sporadically developed, and was semi-rural or rural in character - the source doesn't back this up
  • I think it was Rosenzweig and Blackmar's book that said this. Let me check again on Monday.

epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• did you get a chance to check? Mujinga (talk) 13:04, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• The purchase of land by blacks came to play out significantly in their political engagement. Blacks in Seneca Village were extremely politically engaged in proportion to the rest of New York.- ref is better Rosenzweig & Blackmar 1992, p. 73 than Rosenzweig & Blackmar 1992, p. 72
  • Fixed.

Community institutions

• African Union Church purchased lots in Seneca Village in 1837, a few hundred feet from AME Zion Church. - source says a hundred
  • Various other sources say a few hundred feet. I should clarify this. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• 99th Street do we need to specify West 99th Street?
• 84th Street do we need to specify West 84th Street?
  • It's not strictly necessary because West and East numbered streets are continuations of each other, unlike in Brooklyn where they may refer to separate streets. I can put directional prefixes if you want. epicgenius (talk) 00:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the answer I was just wondering if it was needed, seems like not. Mujinga (talk) 17:10, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
• When the community was razed, the church relocated to the corner of 81st Street and West End Avenue - source only says (page89) that it relocated a few blocks west
  • Added the appropriate ref for the rest of the sentence. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Other nearby settlements

• "Pigtown", better "Pigtown," as per MOS:INOROUT - also I am really loving reading about Pigtown
  • Technically I think the MOS wants punctuation on the outside unless it is part of a clause or sentence. I did check MOS:LQ, it says If the quotation is a single word or a sentence fragment, place the terminal punctuation outside the closing quotation mark. So the example above, would actually be correct under MOS:LQ and would be incorrect if i made your suggested change.
    • OK so we are both reading from the same bit of MOS but seeing it differently. I don't think a comma is terminal punctuation, like a full stop would be. I think this bit would be more applicable: this means treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks: keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence but I don't want to end up arguing about a comma. I also am grateful for your response and I'm ok to leave it as it is, someone else will be sure to give a third opinion at some point. (edit) and now i see other examples within the article and they are consistent with this style Mujinga (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Also, glad you enjoyed reading about Pigtown. Rosenzweig and Blackmar's and Berman's books are really fun to read, and also really detailed. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• One of these areas, called "Pigtown", was a settlement of 14 mostly Irish families located in the modern park's southeastern corner, and was so named because the residents kept hogs and goats. Pigtown was originally located further south, in what is now considered 50th through 59th Streets from Sixth to Seventh Avenues, but was forced further north because of complaints from the pungent animal smells.[28][30] the first ref (right now 28) should be on the first sentence, the second ref doesn't cover either sentence, so we need a new ref for the second sentence
  • The second source says 50s. I don't know how to reword this as it basically means somewhere from 50th to 59th Streets. I fixed it. epicgenius (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Mount St. Vincent's Academy was also sited near McGowan's Pass until 1881 - I would be willing to bet this source covers it but not on pages 90-91
• stopping here Epicgenius. i had hoped to get further and i just took a call which means i may not have time until tuesday but in any case we are halfway. i will ping you when i have the chance to do more. Mujinga (talk) 22:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the initial review. That's strange since I thought I recalled the book sources saying most of these things. Which editions do you have? I will check on Monday. epicgenius (talk) 23:41, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Hi I'm back, apologies for the gap - i should be able to finish the review today i hope then I'll ping you. For the books yes it would be good to check if we are looking at versions with different page numbers or something, Berman I think i was looking at the googlebooks 2003 version and Rosenzweig and Blackmar i was looking at the googlebooks 1992 version. Mujinga (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the clarification. I have these editions, but the actual print copies. Just wanted to confirm. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Demise

Planning of Central Park

• There'a a mixture of citation styles in this article, as I understand it that's not a problem for GA but it would be for FA, so just pointing it out here.
• I'm having problems verifying the citations from the Documents of the Assembly of the State of New York because there seem to be many volumes. I'm using hathi. Is there a better way?
  • Does Google Books not work? Try this. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• great thanks now i can check it - the problem is volume 29 is not specified so i got a bit lost. i'd advise making better references for these three instances using hathitrust links
• 451 mentions the Jones and Schermerhorn families but not that they objected
• 452-3 covers the sentence well
• 458 this page doesn't mention a fund or five commissioners

just waiting on an answer here Mujinga (talk) 14:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• As the campaign to create Central Park moved forward, the community was referred to in pejorative terms, and the Irish and black residents were often described as "wretched" and "debased" - the quotes are from the late 1840s and seem more a criticism of seneca village by a religious person than part of a campaign for the park in the 1850s
  • Reworded. I think, however, that the actual text was in the context of planning for Central Park. Let me check tomorrow. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• did you check? Mujinga (talk) 13:13, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Mujinga: Yes. If I recall correctly, it was in the context of a chapter that had to deal with planning for a large park in Manhattan starting in the late 1840s. These were quotes used to justify using Seneca Village and surrounding areas rather than Jones's Wood as the site for Central Park. epicgenius (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Razing

• In 1853, the Central Park commissioners started conducting property assessments on more than 34,000 lots in and near Central Park on my googlebooks version this is page81
  • Fixed.
• Clearing occurred as soon as the Central Park commission's report was released in October 1855 - i don't see that in pages 81 -83, although on page 85 it says by fall 1857 the park area was mostly cleared
• The Williams' Affidavit (https://web.archive.org/web/20010919101219/http://projects.ilt.columbia.edu/seneca/affidavit3.html) could be linked above as well when he is first mentioned
  • Done.
• All of the inhabitants of the village were evicted by 1857, and all of the properties within Central Park were razed - citation says it was razed in 1855
  • Switch the citations for this and the thing you said two bullet points up, then it will be correct. Clearing started in 1855 and was mostly complete by 1857. I have to check the citation again though. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• looks like you did this, nice one Mujinga (talk) 13:14, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Wall, Diana; Wall, Diana; Rothschild, Nan A.; Copeland, Cynthia (2008). "Seneca Village and Little Africa: Two African American Communities in Antebellum New York City". - i notice here that Diana Wall is listed twice in the ref
  • Fixed.

Rediscovery

• "The Park and the People: A History of Central Park" better The Park and the People: A History of Central Park
  • Done.

Memorials

• Parks Commissioner Henry Stern, - from Henry Stern looks like he stopped being Parks Commissioner in 2000 so better former Parks Commissioner
  • I see what you mean. All of these people are no longer at their respective positions, but Stern was already not at his position anymore. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Archaeological excavations

• reference http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/seneca_village/2011.html doesn't work
• The public location of the site in Central Park meant that excavators had to back-fill incomplete units each weekend and could not cut any root thicker than half an inch. Nighttime guards also monitored the site to ensure that it was undisturbed. Following the excavation, more than 300 people attended an open house at the project site. - this isn't really backed by the citation
• First sentence, not really backed by the citation. Second sentence, yes. Third sentence, no. I fixed these accordingly.
• maybe there is a more recent update now they have analysed the findings?
  • Unfortunately not. There's an article from a not-well-known source that basically regurgitates what's already stated. And then this Columbia student doesn't really like Columbia's expansion and compares it to Seneca Village. I don't think the findings are too groundbreaking, pun intended, but will look further to see if there really have been any recent news. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• great thanks for checking! i wonder if they'll ever find a descendant of someone who lived there... Mujinga (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

References

• Some minor issues, outlined above
  • I have reordered the references. epicgenius (talk) 14:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Further reading

• Since the only entry is historial fiction I wonder if it would be better placed in an "In culture" section or similar
  • This might fall under WP:IPC. I could remove it altogether if you like. I don't think it would be notable enough to have it's own Culture section. epicgenius (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• best to remove it, agreed Mujinga (talk) 13:16, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

External links

• Fine

Images

• I suppose it would be better to have the map showing location at the top of the page

• what did you think about this?

• I have done this. epicgenius (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Blockhouse and 1857 image licenses are fine.

Final comments

• This article is an enjoyable read and needs some minor work before being a good article. I hope Epicgenius has the time to fix these things identified above and then it will be a pass. I'll put the article on hold for seven days. Mujinga (talk) 21:55, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Mujinga: I don't know if you've seen the above, but I've responded all your comments above. epicgenius (talk) 01:56, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Epicgenius yes I've been checking in but was waiting to see if you were done. I should be able to get to replying in full later today or tomoro. My last comment wasn't answered but perhaps wasn't clear, I was suggesting switching the images so that the searchable location is more to the forefront as the top image. Mujinga (talk) 09:46, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Epicgenius, thanks for your work on the article I think we are getting close - I've made some replies above, I think the important things now to resolve are the hathitrust refs and to finish off putting refs in numerical order. I have proposed the images are switched. I just read through the article again and I think it is almost there. I did notice one thing though in the lead free black people could be wikilinked to free blacks. Mujinga (talk) 13:22, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

hiya so it's just the hathi refs now Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Epicgenius just wanted to check you have seen this Mujinga (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Mujinga:  Done fixed the refs. epicgenius (talk) 18:28, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Great that was the last thing so now the article passes. Congratulations Epicgenius and i hope at some point some living descendants from the inhabitants of Seneca Village are found. Mujinga (talk) 08:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Seneca Village, a community of free black people, was destroyed in the 1850s to make way for New York City's Central Park? Source: Rosenzweig, Roy & Blackmar, Elizabeth (1992). The Park and the People: A History of Central Park. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press. p. 85
  • ALT1:... that there have not been any identified descendants of residents of Seneca Village, which was destroyed to make way for New York City's Central Park? Source: NY Times
  • ALT2:... that the site of New York City's Central Park was formerly occupied by Seneca Village, a community of free black people? Source: Rosenzweig and Blackmar, p. 85

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/EvergreenHealth

Improved to Good Article status by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 16:42, 1 October 2019 (UTC).

• Article was recently promoted to Good status. No concerning pings on Earwigs. QPQ has been completed. Hooks are neutral and short enough for DYK. Assuming good faith on the offline source. Personally think ALT0 is the strongest hook of the three. Morgan695 (talk) 01:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)