Talk:Seitan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sjschen's suggestion that this article be merged with Gluten

I see your point but this merge isn't a good idea on several counts. First, "Gluten" is the glutenous chemical component of any of several grains. "Mian jin" (seitan) is made from the gluten of wheat only, and specifically it is a food product made from that gluten, which is powdered, then reconstituted, kneaded, cooked, etc. Thus, this is similar to having a WP entry for "sugar," and another for "rock candy" or "cotton candy," as a distinct food product made from that raw material. Badagnani 10:10, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

jsled 28 September 2005: -1 for merging; Badagnani's argument is convincing.

September 29 2005: Another thumbs down to merging; seitan is made of gluten but that's where the relationship ends. Gluten is a protein found mainly in wheat; seitan is a food.

No this is a distinct foodstuff. It would be like putting Corn dog into corn. --Rakista 00:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that seitan is distinct food-stuff. The reason suggested the merge is because "gluten" is commonly used traslation from Chinese to English in regards to Seitan. I personally have also never heard of Seitan ta describe gluten foodstuffs until then. Seitan in most cases, is almost completely made of gluten. I agreed finally with not merging the two article on the basis that gluten as a compound should be remain separate from the foodstuff (seitan) that is made from it. Your comment on corn dogs and corn is a poor analogy at best, and makes me somewhat doubtful whether you knew what you were talking about. --Sjschen 23:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

One compromise solution would be to move the article to "Wheat gluten" (rather than gluten), which would encompass seitan, mian jin, fu, nama-fu, whatever Koreans and Vietnamese call it, etc., with headings describing each type in detail and redirects from "seitan" and "mian jin." Or just leave at seitan, with an explanation of why that term isn't known/applicable in most of Asia, where the wheat gluten foodstuff originated (except in the macrobiotic subculture). Badagnani 00:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Too tell the truth, if most Westerners or English recognize the term "seitan" as gluten foods, I'm personaly happly to just leave the title as it is and write some huge explanation about how the term is faulty, so on so forth. This is okay since language does not have a one to one mapping (incense and frankincense are the same thing in german). Just cut and paste Dforest's conversation with you into the article. If the title must really change I really want "Gluten (food)". Wheat gluten implies that the gluten can only come from wheat when truth is, gluten foodstuff just needs to be made of gluten. -- Sjschen 00:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This was also what I was thinking. I've never heard of edible gluten being made from anything other than wheat, although it is true that the White Wave brand seitan has other things, such as chick peas, listed in its ingredients. This brand of seitan is not as "endlessly chewy" as the kind I've eaten in places like New York Chinatown's House of Vegetarian restaurant. Info on exactly how the macrobiotic seitan differs in composition or cooking from Chinese traditional wheat gluten is hard to come by on the Internet, but the other participants in the discussion seem to know a lot about it. Let's all work together to get this explained fully and clearly. Badagnani 01:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In that case chick pea flour was used to cut the rubberiness of the gluten. There are actually 3 main forms of chinese gluten. Chinese ‘’kao fu‘’ (烤麩) to my understanding, is Japanese seitan. It's like bread made of pure gluten that has been steamed. In chinese markets the are sold as small blocks. These are diced up and absorbs the cooking liquid like a sponge. It also has the texture of a wet sponge. The other two forms are both just call "mian jin" (麵筋) but one is wrapped against itself and steamed while the other is torn into small bits and fried into puffy balls. They are both eaten aftenrbeing cooked in soups or stewed in broth. The latter is the one that is most commonly seen canned in jars and sold in markets. I recommend eating congee with it. Sjschen 01:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The more I think of it, the more I want Gluten (Food) at the article title. However, I leave the decision up to everyone.

This could work. Are you sure it shouldn't also have wheat in the title, though? Badagnani 01:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I‘m cool with wheat. :) Sjschen 02:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, any objection to moving this article to "Wheat gluten (food)" -- of course with redirects from all the subtypes? Badagnani 02:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Terminology problems

This article has some serious terminology problems. Mian jin is not seitan. The word seitan was coined in the early 1960s by George Ohsawa (born Nyoichi Sakurazawa), the founder of macrobiotics, specifically to refer to his recipe for gluten meat. According to the OED, seitan was first cited in English in 1974, and attributed to his wife Lima Ohsawa:

Seitan: 1 tablespoon of sesame oil, 1 tablespoon minced gingerroot, 1 to 2 cups shoyu, 5 cups cold wheat gluten, separated into small pieces.

L. OHSAWA Art of just Cooking 85/2

It also is not the Japanese term for gluten. In fact, the word is virtually unknown in Japan, and is not found in Japanese dictionaries. In the rare case the word is used in Japanese, it is written in katakana, as though it were a foreign word, i.e. セイタン. According to Oxford, the etymology is uncertain, but perhaps "Japanese sei- to be, become, or -sei of the nature of, made of (e.g. in shokubutsu-sei (adjective) vegetable) + tan- (in tanpaku(shitsu) protein".

I think the information about Gluten meats in general should be moved to something like Gluten meat or Gluten (meat analogue) and this article should be pared down to refer to the macrobiotic product for which the word was coined. Mian jin should be moved to its own page.

Seitan, strictly speaking, refers to a product based on Ohsawa's original recipe, containing gluten, shoyu (soy sauce), ginger, and sesame oil. Sometimes it is used colloquially to refer to seasoned gluten in general, some of which comes from completely different traditions and has quite different flavors and textures. If we use the neologism "seitan" to refer to all seasoned gluten, it will open a big can of worms. Dforest 18:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

This is all completely new to me, and, I suspect, is not known either to most health food enthusiasts in English speaking countries, many of whom eat lots of seitan. Your expertise is greatly appreciated. What is the Japanese term for "wheat gluten meat," by the way? (I'm guessing the kanji are the same as those for "mian jin." My vote is for keeping all the gluten meat products in ONE article, with separate paragraphs for the various types. They are all related foods, in the same way that various tofus are related to one another (see the tofu page, listed under its Japanese name, which includes about 20+ sub-types of tofu). Badagnani 19:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

(to many comments from me? hope not) I second having a more clear division on types of gluten meat analogues, but all in one article. The seitan I buy, make, and see on a very regular basis is nothing like that one recipe that is described here. I'm not aware of what else is done with them. Heck, maybe I shouldn't be calling what I make seitan, but this article is a whole mess of confusion, so it's certainly no help. "gluten" is just the word for the protein found in grains. This article steps all over itself with confusion over that word.Brianlamere 18:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

echo Badagnani's comments. "Seitan," as far as I'm concerned, is merely vital wheat gluten (flour with greater than 75% gluten) mixed with water. Is there only one way to make a cake? Are we stuck defining "cookie" with whatever recipe was used for the original cookie? Whatever Lima Ohsawa may have penned, it is but one thousands of seitan recipes.

So if what I'm making, that is described on countless cooking websites as seitan, isn't seitan...what is it? It isn't from local sources (ie, not macrobiotic), and I often put non-grain things in it if you're going to go for that definition. For example, I will put tomato paste in it, with other spices, to replace beef in some recipies.

BTW, the best results are when you mix a few sparing spices before constituting the flour. IE, before it is this "gluten" being used in a very strange way. "gluten" is just the term for the protein found in grains. "wheat gluten" should thus be considered the protein found specifically in wheat. What you do with that gluten dictates what foodstuff you end up with. I don't see the logic in thinking a word, especially one that is a generic term for a recipe (like cake, cookie, or sandwich), is immutable. Brianlamere 18:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

To answer your question, for gluten meat, the Japanese use a katakana version of the English term, i.e. グルテンミート (gurutenmiito) [1] or very rarely, セイタン for seitan. [2] (Note the katakana in quotation marks!) Both are extremely obscure, as are the corresponding products in Japan. I agree there should be an article or section describing these gluten foods, but there is a big problem lumping them all together under seitan. Seitan describes, strictly speaking, the macrobiotic product invented by Ohsawa, and more generally a type of flavored gluten with a chewy, meaty texture. The traditional Japanese gluten is called fu. The fresh type, nama-fu, is used in the vegetarian Buddhist cuisine of Japan, shōjin ryōri. Fu comes in various forms, the most common of which is a dried form, resembling croutons, which are added to soups. It does not resemble seitan in the slightest.

Seitan is a neologism that 99% of Japanese have never heard of. It is misleading to call it "the Japanese term for wheat gluten". It is equally misleading to claim that seitan was invented by the Chinese. The gluten in Chinese Buddhist cuisine might well be considered a precursor to seitan, but they are not the same thing. It would be something like conflating the "flat round of dough dressed with olive oil, herbs, and honey baked on stones" served in Pompeii with pizza as it exists today. Dforest 11:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

All good to know. What is the character for "fu" and "nama-fu"? Are they the same as for "mian jin"? I think this would be the equivalent food as "mian jin" in Chinese Buddhist cuisine. The dried, crumbly product you describe is, I believe, a 20th century invention called TVP ("texturized vegetable protein"), which has become ubiquitous in East and Southeast Asia and which many people, both in Asia and western nations, mistakenly call "tofu," or "seitan," but it is neither.

Japanese fu is not the same as TVP. The dried from more resembles very hard bread. It is light and airy, and when put in soup takes on a soft, chewy texture. It's most commonly sold in cut form, which looks a lot like croutons or rusk. Dforest 09:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, now I know what you're talking about. I ate this for the first time in October in Beijing; it's amazing. The texture was similar to light rice noodles (that's what I thought it was when I saw it in the food court, until the lady told me it was mian jin) or cloud ear fungus, and it almost resembled tripe. I had never had gluten with this texture before. Unfortunately it's completely unavailable and unknown here in Ohio, USA. Badagnani 09:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the terminology, all of these wheat gluten-based foods are related, likely originating in China as a meat substitute in Buddhist vegetarian cuisine, and I still think they should remain together in one article, the way various types of tofu are. Your recommendation that seitan (as a term limited to macrobiotic cuisine) not be used as the article title is something that we should consider. Let's have some more discussion about this. What does Sjschen think? Badagnani 20:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've always known gluten food as "gluten", since that's how it had been sold in most markets where I do my shopping. Loaning the words from Japanese is problematic because fu (麩) is just too ambiguious while nama-fu (生麩, "raw" fu) is never really used in English to indicate gluten food stuffs. Both of these terms also translate to just "gluten" or "raw gluten", repectively. This is not really, a reason but they are kinda silly sounding ("fool!" and "Na'm a fool!"). Loaning the Chinese word is also a bad idea since the romanization "mian jin" (麵筋) is not really used to describe gluten foodstuff in English. Translating it is even worse idea since it means "dough tendon". While taking the Chinese or Japanese romanization of the words may be justified in other cases where no Engish word exists, the term "gluten" has been used to describe gluten foods more many many years. Most people I know also call gluten foodstuffs, ”gluten“. As such, if "seitan" is not the general term to used for gluten foodstuffs, then I would personally choose something like "Gluten foods" or "Gluten (foods)", since I think it's a lot better then "dough tendon", "mian jin", "fu", or "nama-fu". Those are my thoughts. --Sjschen 00:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

you bring up a point that confuses me about this entire article. It's not as though we're talking about two similar cultures; languages in Europe all borrow from each other, but the words end up sounding the same. "Seitan" is purely an English word, as is "macrobiotic." While activities in Japan, China, and where ever else spawned seitan, gluten was used to make bread stickier in really old Europe; its use likely started all over, independently. Seitan is likely a different story, but no one in Asia calls seitan anything that sounds remotely like "seitan" so why is it we're so worried about translation? It's an English word. What it means in English is clearly, as all the confusion suggests, not a direct correlation to any particular word from anywhere in Asia.

Rambling, incoherent comment - I know. But as someone who has made their own seitan for over a decade, and who makes no macrobiotic efforts (I certainly don't buy local wheat...there isn't any), this entire article is just strange. It's as though it is describing something entirely different than what I had for dinner last night.Brianlamere 17:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Good edits. I'm happy with the name change. It needs some work though. It might be less confusing if the text about Japanese words for seitan were moved to the macrobiotic section. It should be made clear these products are quite rare, niche items and not typical Japanese cuisine. A recipe for authentic seitan would be good too. I will try to contribute more when I have some time. Dforest 09:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I found an ad for packaged Japanese-produced seitan (macrobiotic style), so I guess it's available there, if rare. Badagnani 09:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Bran puffs

I've eaten something called "bran puffs" which I think is one of the Chinese or Japanese forms described by Sjschen. I think this comes dried (you need to boil it to reconstitute), and maybe also canned. Anybody have any idea what this is and whether it should be mentioned in the article? Badagnani 03:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, Wiktionary says that 麩 means "bran." This might explain why sometimes I see dried gluten puffs called "bran puffs." It's something of a mistranslation. In English, bran is the outer part of the wheat, distinct from the gluten. Badagnani 03:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

More on Japanese preparation

Hope everyone is happy with the new title and format of the article. I notice that there is some new information in this website - http://www.cybermacro.com/Macrobiotic_Articles/From_Mitoku/FU_GLUTEN_CAKES/ about Japanese "fu" which is prepared by mixing gluten with wheat flour 50/50, and then baked, steamed, cut, and dried. There are four names of shapes listed. Is this information accurate and, if so, can someone with expertise add this to the three types Sjschen has put in for Japanese styles of "fu"? Also, can someone add romaji for each hiragana spelling? Badagnani 08:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Chai pow yu

I've eaten a product labeled Chai Pow Yu which is sold in cans, and usually translated as vegetarian abalone or simply braised gluten. I believe the hanzi is 齋鮑魚. According to Wiktionary the pinyin appears to be zhāi bào yú. I'm not so familiar with the Chinese forms of gluten, but it seems to be one of the more common ones. A Google search in English shows several dozen Western recipes that use this food. I've also seen braised gluten prepared as mock duck, chicken, lamb, beef, etc. I presume the canned "braised" varieties are all types of yóu miàn jīn (油麵筋). Anyone familiar with this? Dforest 08:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Good question. Let's have Sjschen have a look at this (when he wakes up, ha ha) and see if it's a new species of gluten or whether it falls under the yóu miàn jīn type as you'd guessed. I'm not a big fan of the canned/jarred braised style (I think this type is similar to the kind found in glass jars, sometimes with peanuts, which is eaten with congee). Badagnani 08:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Wiktionary says 齋鮑魚 means "vegetarian abalone fish"; sounds like a marketing term to me. Badagnani 08:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "vegetarian abalone" you guys are talking about is a type of you mian jin (油麵筋). However, steamed gluten in its myriad of streched, rolled, and block forms is the main type of gluten used by everyone to make "fake meat". You find it as ((mock, fake, imitation) + (duck, chicken, beef)) in the asian canned food section. I'm personally a huge fan of the jarred kind with mushrooms and peanuts (which is usually fried gluten). The canned steamed gluten fake meat kind is tolerable at times, but they all taste the same to me whether they are labeled as duck, chicken, beef, or unicorn. Sjschen 20:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I also suspect in the back of my mind that kao fu is actually a form of gluten reintroduced from japan to the chinese. This is because the word fu is used in Japanese, not in Chinese, to describe gluten, since as Badagnani mentioned, in Chinese it means "bran". I can't prove any of this because I have no sources, but I personally think it's a good guess. Sjschen 20:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Tanpaku(shitsu)

Is this the right punctuation? Badagnani 01:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Big gluten ball?

I just bought something in a Chinese grocery store: labeled "Big Gluten Ball." It's dried, brittle, puffy balls of gluten filled with air that you're supposed to fill with meat, mushrooms, or something, then stir fry or add to stew. I don't know the 2nd character but the others are "big ___ mian jin." Is this a new species of gluten? Badagnani 11:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Preparing gluten from wheat flour (OR)

I've modified point four to include some original research. --Fasten 09:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, but now the page looks to any user as if they can't trust any of it. Why not rather discuss your proposed change over here on the talk page, and see if anyone can find sources for your statements? --Slashme 11:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I made a template to mark only the section as Original Research. Hope that's a bit better. Still, I thought WP:NOR was a policy. Why explicitly break it? --Slashme 12:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Because it is such a minor observation and in a field of knowledge where research is very seldom a science anyway. I do think your {{SectOR}} is a very good idea, by the way. --Fasten 13:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Still, I doubt whether that much detail is really necessary: This isn't a cooking website. It's supposedly a general encyclopedia, so I'd say the details of the recipe can be left out. And definitely the parts that you know only from personal experience shouldn't be there. If we post information based on original research, it becomes really hard to separate fact from opinion. --Slashme 16:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Cantonese

I just came across a recipe that calls fried gluten "dao pok" (which I guess is Cantonese). What would be the Chinese characters for this and is it accurate? I would think "dao" actually refers to bean curd rather than gluten. Badagnani 17:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Google shows 豆卜, which is a tofu variant. I guess some people confused it with wheat gluten. Yel D'ohan (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Pet food recalls

Should we put some info about the pet food recalls here? It appears that wheat gluten is the culprit, with either aminopterin or melamine being the specific agent found on the wheat gluten. --zandperl 13:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The melamine issue is a food contamination issue. Contamination could happen to any food. Also, the story of melamine contamination is still evolving, with rumors that this was added on purpose. The quality of a contamint are not relevant to the qualities of the food being written about--after all, it would be absurd to update every single wikipedia entry about food with the miriad ways it can be contaminated. Maybe an article on food contamination is called for here.

If this is causing a problem with pets why not humans?

Just like caffeine and dogs, why indeedSjschen 05:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

dogs, cats, and humans are entirely different species (just stating the obvious). There are a good number of diseases that affect one, and not the other. There are also a lot of things humans have developed a tolerance of, that are bad for large numbers of other animals. Caffeine is one such example, but there are countless others. On the other hand, dogs and cats do a better job of eating raw meats than humans do. They're just different creatures. Brianlamere 14:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

/* Ideological language doesn't help either */ I'm not a registered user - but I would like to add that the phrase 'used as a filler in pet foods' is quite incorrect - sawdust would be a 'filler' the wheat gluten performs both a functional role (it holds other ingredients together) and is also a bioavailable protein source. Describing it as a 'filler' is a habit of the BARF raw pet food protagnosists and as unsound as any claim that gluten is 'poisonous'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.248.238 (talk) 02:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The melamine was added to the pet food in order to boost its otherwise-too-low protein content. And you vegenauts can carp all you like, but the BARF folks are right: cats and dogs aren't meant to eat grains. Or melamine. 38.115.185.4 (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)Kibbles&Bits

Revise statement

I think the statement "Gluten is poison to humans as well as animals, as it kills the immune system starting with the intestine." should be revised. At the very least, it begs for some qualification(s). Better still would be an authoritative citation or two.Mdrein 18:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a registered user - but I would like to add that the phrase 'used as a filler in pet foods' is quite incorrect - sawdust would be a 'filler' the wheat gluten performs both a functional role (it holds other ingredients together) and is also a bioavailable protein source. Describing it as a 'filler' is a habit of the BARF raw pet food protagnosists and as unsound as any claim that gluten is poisonous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.248.238 (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Gluten Flour versus Vital Wheat Gluten

In the macrobiotics section, it is written: "The gluten powder (also called vital wheat gluten or gluten flour)"

"Vital wheat gluten" is dramatically different than "gluten flour." The two are different things. Gluten flour has more gluten than normal flour, but vital wheat gluten is mostly gluten. A quick, easy check to see which it is you have is by looking at the total grams per serving, and then the grams of protein per serving. If it is low (or maybe even mid) then it is just gluten flour. If it is 75+% protein, then it is vital wheat gluten. The distinction is important; "gluten flour" can't make seitan, "vital wheat gluten" can. As someone who has had to deal with grocery bulk sections changing what they're putting in the gluten bin without changing the label, and then having to throw away globs of stuff that were far more like dumplings than seitan, I've first-hand experience in the distinction. Brianlamere 14:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If you're sure of this, you might go ahead and add this important distinction in that portion of the article. Badagnani 20:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

"SAY-tahn"?

I mean, I knew wheat gluten was not highly thought of, but calling it, I don't know, SATAN!!! is going a little far, don't you think? --205.201.141.146 20:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

some types may taste more like meat?

The bit that reads "some types may taste even more like meat than tofu due to their chewy and/or stringy texture" is unsourced and extremely subjective. We should either take it out, or have it sourced.Msheskin 20:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well you could find a million people to quote there. The taste vs texture concepts have overlapped there... the texture alone ill not make it 'taste like meat' but the point about the texture is correct. Gluten based alternatives to meat tend to have a texture that is closer to that found in meat products due to gluten's habit of sticking to itself, which it can do in layers and also filament like structures, although this may be dependent on other ingredients being combined and also the manufacturing process... This feature is absent in all tofu products. Tofus are generally closer to cheese than meat in texture. Many vegetarian products use wheat gluten in combination with tofu for nutritional reasons (amino acid balance) but also to create those textures that some find similar to meat products.

Alternate Chinese name

The alternate Chinese name 鹵味 should be added. Badagnani 07:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

滷味 refers to Chinese stew. Wheat gluten is only one of its common ingredients. Yel D'ohan (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

overstressing of "macrobiotic"

I'm not sure what definition of "macrobiotic" is being used throughout this entire article, but most folk I talk to use the term to mean eating plant-based products from local sources. I don't know of any wheat farms in San Diego (where I live), yet I've been making my own seitan for 10+ years, and eating it for longer than that. How can something be macrobiotic if I'm feeling lazy, and buy it pre-made and shipped from China? I'm not eating it to be macrobiotic, I'm eating it because I'm vegan.Brianlamere 17:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Good for you! And here's the article on the macrobiotic diet. ;) Maikel (talk) 16:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wheat is produced in almost every county in California. See californiawheat.org, and in particular this map: [3]. Also, the Chinese product you're referring to, if you mean the tin can, is not seitan, but comes from a different tradition. Dforest (talk) 01:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Good research! Badagnani (talk) 05:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

麵輪

Gluten wheels (麵輪) should be added to the article. Badagnani (talk) 10:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Change of kanji

This change of kanji should be explained. Badagnani (talk) 16:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Western section offers opinions

Regarding the Western section, I disagree with two sentences:

1.

Since the mid-20th century, wheat gluten (generally known by its macrobiotic name, seitan) has been increasingly adopted by vegetarians in western nations as a realistic meat substitute, particularly by vegetarians who previously ate meat and miss its taste and/or texture.

This is not necessarily the case. Some people just like the fact that it's a convenient way to add protein to a vegetarian diet. Moreover, no one is likely to be fooled that seitan is actually meat. I suggest the following revision:

Since the mid-20th century, wheat gluten (generally known by its macrobiotic name, seitan) has been increasingly adopted by vegetarians in western nations as a realistic convenient meat substitute.

2.

It is sold in block, strip and shaped forms in North America, where it is very difficult to find outside of Asian food markets, health food stores, some grocery store chains and cooperatives.

This is outdated information, as seitan is now available in mainstream grocery stores in some areas (eg, Whole Foods Market).

I suggest the following revision:

It is sold in block, strip and shaped forms in North America, where it is very difficult to find outside of can be found in Asian food markets, health food stores, some grocery store chains and cooperatives.

--Acridrabbit (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Rough protein content and assimilation levels

I see that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Packaged_Seitan.JPG shows a protein content of 17.5g as the average nutritional value per 100g of seitan. But, I remember reading on Internet about "low assimilation levels" of seitan (not sure if the phrase is right) - as much as I remember they were referring to a mere ~20% assimilation rate, as if only a fifth of protein is utilized by the body. I've been trying to google recently about this topic but couldn't find anything. One question that now comes to mind - is that kind of thing "counted in" in this 17.5g figure on that seitan product someone uploaded as an example? In other words, does your body find only a, say, fifth of that 17.5 grams as utilizable protein - and thus virtually only "gains" a 3.5 grams of protein from 100 grams of seitan?

I guess I am encouraging if someone with the knowledge of the issue comes up - that he adds the relevant section or at least a mention of the thing in the article (if this thing I am postulating is right - if not, I'd like to be corrected) because I think it might be essential if we think about how protein content seems to be most significant in seitan's nutrition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.125.152 (talk) 14:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think what you might have read has to do with protein "quality." Since wheat gluten (like most plant-based foods) does not have the perfect set/ratios of essential amino acids for humans, if wheat gluten were a sole protein source, then yes, not 100% of that protein would actually be usable. That doesn't mean it's always "20%" used; it depends on the rest of one's diet (getting the "missing" amounts of amino acids from other foods can mean being able to use 100% of that wheat gluten protein). Like all foods, the amount of protein stated on the nutritional label is the total measured amount, not an analysis of how much is usable. Faunablues (talk) 05:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Multiple problems

I came to this page looking for an explanation of how and why the product we in the US buy as "vital wheat gluten" (in the article as powdered gluten) is included in bread machine recipes and how it can be used to improve other types of whole grain breads. The article is almost entirely about gluten itself, which should have it's own page because it is such an important part of a baking and/or scientific cooking portal - why isn't there an article on the additive itself and it's use in western baking?

I think this article should be split into at least three parts (possibly four because the opening paragraph is more about environmental problems regarding manufacturing than anything else) - 1: gluten as a chemical/food and it's various uses in a general respect- 2: gluten in non-english cultures and how they use it - 3: "vital wheat gluten" and what it's used for - and 4: environmental concerns regarding gluten manufacture 68.115.35.110 (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Amino-acid breakdown

It would be very nice if this article listed the quantities of specific amino acids in wheat gluten. I can't find this data on Wolfram Alpha or anywhere else. This is very important for vegans trying to come up with the ideal legume-grain balance for optimal protein metabolization.

24.184.169.144 (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Seitan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Good article but lacks history of the food. -- Warfreak 10:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 10:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:05, 1 May 2016 (UTC)