Talk:Second Intifada/Archive 7

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No mention

Note: The following comment was copied from the previous talk section:

However, serious observers of this article will be more puzzled that there's no mention of the 1,300,000 bullets fired by Israeli forces in the first few days of the Intifada - and the claim (eg in the same 2004 Israeli newspaper article) that this was "not a war on terror, but on the Palestinian people" and "first three months ... Israeli casualties was low ... IDF proudly cited the large number of Palestinian casualties".

Then there's no mention of the well-attested theory that Sharon's visit was a deliberate provocation to de-rail the final Israel-Palestine agreement (2000 Camp David, 2000 Taba, 2001 Geneva Accords, 2002 Road Map), which would, according to virtually all commentators, lead inevitably to the withdrawal of all settlements on the West Bank. PR^talk 13:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a relevant comment that deserves a separate talk section. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Why would a single newspaper article and an unsourced conspiracy theory deserve to be mentioned even once, much less twice? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not just any newspaper. It is Haaretz. June 29, 2004. "More than a million bullets". By Reuven Pedatzur.

"This also explains why over a million bullets were fired in the first few days, even though there was no operational or professional justification. The intent was to score a winning blow against the Palestinians, and especially against their consciousness. This was not a war on terror, but on the Palestinian people. IDF commanders projected their viewpoint regarding Arafat's intentions onto the entire Palestinian society."

The theory about the Sharon visit is not a conspiracy theory. In my readings I have found it to be a common opinion held by many people worldwide. Even by some Israelis. I can't cite any sources offhand though. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It is a single article in a newspaper with a small circulation of approximately 65,000, about the same as the Cedar Rapids Gazette. As for the rest, it's bad enough that PR fills talks pages with ridiculous conspiracy theories and soapboxing, please don't compound the problem. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Enough of the personal attacks on PR, Jay, and enough soapboxing about "ridiculous conspiracy theories." Your comparison of Haaretz to the Cedar Rapids Gazette as sources for an article on the Second Intifada betrays a profound lack of understanding of Wikipedia in general, and WP:RS in particular.--G-Dett (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Ha'aretz has a circulation almost exactly the same as the Cedar Rapids Gazette, exactly as I said. As for your admonition that should cease my "attacks" on PR followed by a sentence that contains a straw man attack on me, the irony is delicious. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Jay, of course Ha'aretz has a circulation almost exactly the same as the Cedar Rapids Gazette, but that factoid does not have the significance you believed it had when you typed it. I'm relieved that you're sufficiently embarrassed by your argument that you're now retreating from it, denying having made it, and merely repeating your barebones – and utterly meaningless – factoid; but in the meantime do everyone a favor and use "attack," "strawman," and "conspiracy theory" according to their accepted definitions.--G-Dett (talk) 03:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

G-Dett, is it possible for you to make comments that are not filled with straw man claims or personal attacks? Just musing out loud more than anything else, really, as I don't imagine you'll be able to respond without more of the same. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Israel only has a population of around 7 million people. From:Haaretz:

Haaretz (Hebrew: הארץ‎, "The land", referring to the Land of Israel), founded in 1918, is Israel's oldest daily newspaper. ... Haaretz's readership includes Israel's middle and upper classes, intellectuals, academics, and professionals. It has a wide following amongst the Israeli intelligentsia and government leaders,[6][7][8] and Encyclopædia Britannica describes it as Israel's most influential newspaper.[9]

The opinions concerning the motivations of combatants (such as Sharon) are commonly found in Wikipedia articles on military conflicts. To get more info please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You have singularly failed to respond to my points; it's single newspaper article, in a small circulation newspaper. The fact that the newspaper claims, and perhaps even has, an influence disproportionate with its circulation, is not relevant to those points. As for the conspiracy theory, it's still entirely unsourced. Please don't waste any more space on the Talk: page mentioning it unless you find multiple reliable sources for it, per WP:FRINGE. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

He's right, guys. Haaretz isn't a very good source for notable discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's about at the level of the New Republic or the Cedar Rapids Gazette. The New York Times and the National Enquirer are better, each with a circulation of about a million. Better than any of these is USA Today, with a circulation of 2.5 million. Better still would be People magazine and TV Guide. These would be optimal.

And PR, don't even think of adding anything from so-called "scholarly journals," with their wacky ideas and tiny circulations.--G-Dett (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, G-Dett, I never actually made any of the arguments that you are making on my behalf. That's why your statements, including this one, regularly fall into the category of straw man arguments. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, you did make that argument, but we may all breathe a sigh of relief that you're now retreating from it.--G-Dett (talk) 03:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Predicably, the arguments you invent on my behalf are not the ones I actually make, though I don't imagine you'll have the grace or honesty to admit as much. You certainly never have before. But please, feel free to invent arguments for me, and then mock them; since they are your arguments, not mine, you are, in reality, only mocking yourself. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll have the grace to admit anything, true or untrue, dizzying and incomprehensible as whatever nonsense you care to type, so long as you'll commit to no longer derailing discussion by (a) pretending that the reliability and notability of sources are a function of their circulation runs, and (b) impugning the weight and relevance of Haaretz as a source for articles on the I/P conflict.--G-Dett (talk) 03:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! You just can't stop yourself from presenting your own arguments as mine, can you? OK, now, I rate the likelihood of your next comment again containing further straw man arguments as 90%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 85%. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't stop myself from assuming some modicum of good faith from you, which in this instance meant assuming that you believed your factoid about the Cedar Rapids Gazette had some significance, and that a source's reliability and notability were somehow a function of its print run. You're now saying you meant so such thing, but you won't say what the hell your factoid was in fact supposed to mean. What I gather from all this balderdash is that you like to imply fallacious arguments and hope they'll pass undetected, but if G-d forbid the nonsense is detected as nonsense, you'll disown it, and disown any ordinary interpretation of your meaning as a "strawman" – after all, all you said is that Haaretz has the same print run as the Cedar Rapids Gazette, and fellow editors are to blame for any interpretation of that bare, utterly meaningless factoid.

Normally when a person claims to have been strawmanned, they are able, willing, and eager to clarify what their actual meaning was, and exactly how that meaning got distorted. How striking that you never are.--G-Dett (talk) 04:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer, and beer! I win on both counts. You just can't stop yourself from presenting your own arguments as mine, can you? OK, I now predict the likelihood of your next statement containing further straw man arguments as 95%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 90%. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

A lot of pushing here, but someone seems to be loudly pushing on a string. The Cedar Rapids Gazette might be small, as is Haaretz in the overall scheme of things, but in their own geographic areas, especially when something big happens nearby, they are respected valid sources. That is true whether it is reporting on Iowa caucuses, or 'the bulldozer' on Temple Mount. When, prior to Sharon, had such a high Israeli political 'visited' that location, especially considering the looming Israeli elections at that time. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It's still a single source, though. Please review WP:UNDUE. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, in reference to the million plus bullets fired by Israeli forces in the first few days of the Intifada - your original point was: "Why would a single newspaper article ... deserve to be mentioned even once, much less twice?" Then: "It is a single article in a newspaper with a small circulation of approximately 65,000..." That was later amended to: "it's single newspaper article, in a small circulation newspaper. The fact that the newspaper claims, and perhaps even has, an influence disproportionate with its circulation, is not relevant to those points."

It is definitely not soapboxing to bring up this point about the million plus bullets fired by Israeli forces in the first few days of the Intifada. And the motivations behind that. The article discusses various sources. It is a starting point. It needs to be fleshed out, and then mentioned in the Wikipedia article if additional reliable sources can be found. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Did you read my previous comment? Please review WP:UNDUE. P.S. My point has never been "amended", as it required no amendments. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I quoted you. Call your additional comments amending, enlarging, elaborating, clarifying, whatever. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you quoted me making the exact same argument multiple times. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, G-Dett wrote: "Your comparison of Haaretz to the Cedar Rapids Gazette as sources for an article on the Second Intifada betrays a profound lack of understanding of Wikipedia in general, and WP:RS in particular." Jayjg, how is that a straw man argument? --Timeshifter (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that was a personal attack and a straw man argument. Did I claim anywhere that Haaretz was not a RS? Or, rather, did I point out that material in question violated WP:UNDUE? No need to answer, it was the latter. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, you didn't say it "was not a RS," nor is anyone here saying you said that – there's an actual strawman for you, should you ever wish to understand that term or use it correctly – you just pretended that Israel's newspaper of record is of limited consequence because of its limited print run, and to emphasize your ridiculous argument – which was too intrinsically ridiculous to ever require or be improved upon by a strawman version – you likened it to the Cedar Rapid Gazette.--G-Dett (talk) 04:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! That's three times I've won! You just can't stop yourself from presenting your own arguments as mine, can you? Nor can you stop yourself from attacking me! O.K., I predict the likelihood of your next statement containing further straw man arguments as 98%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 95%. Now, I know those are extremely high percentages, so in theory it should be easy for you to win this round, but given your perfect track record so far, I still feel confident. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I predict that your next fragrant beer-belch will be as witless and degrading as your last three, and that it won't include an actual clarification of the Cedar-Rapids-Gazette comment that you claim was turned into a strawman.--G-Dett (talk) 04:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer and beer! I knew you wouldn't let me down! O.K., for the next round, I now predict the likelihood of your next statement to me containing further straw man arguments as 90%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 85%. And as a bonus, if you actually manage to respond to me without any strawmen arguments or personal attacks, then I'll actually respond to the substance of whatever point it is you're trying to make. It's now four to two for me. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You've already "actually responded," and it's told me what there is to know about your thinking on this subject, not to mention your general quality of mind. I can't imagine what you're proposing to add now, short of actually vomiting on me.--G-Dett (talk) 13:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! Another personal attack! 7 to 2 for me now! Jayjg ^(talk) 02:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

PR, I think your proposed edit is not seriously disputed, and it should be fine to put it in.--G-Dett (talk) 04:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's seriously disputed, since it's an obvious violation of WP:UNDUE. More importantly, and to my chagrin, I believe I have lost this round. Now, I could argue that your comment wasn't a direct response to me, so it doesn't fall within the parameters of the game, and it's quite clear that the "not seriously disputed" statement is really just an indirect attack on me, but I'm feeling magnanimous, and will award you the round anyway. O.K., I now predict the likelihood of your next statement containing further straw man arguments as 90%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 85%. I know I've lowered the percentages, but I feel it's only fair, given that your most recent comment actually was free of straw men arguments, and only indirectly attacked me. It's three to one for me. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Semi-arbitrary section break

I don't see a problem as long as the original source for the number of bullets fired in the first few days of the Intifada is named. As for the reasons for why that many were fired, WP:RS requires clarity on the source of those opinions. Haaretz names the sources for those opinions. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

That seems fine.--G-Dett (talk) 04:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Darn! I lose this round too, though it's hardly a proper test if you don't actually respond to me. O.K., for the next round, I now predict the likelihood of your next statement to me containing further straw man arguments as 80%, and the odds of it containing personal attacks as 75%. I know I've added a new condition, but you're not really playing if you aren't addressing me, so it's not unfair. Go for it! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Haaretz also mentions a June 11, 2004 article: "The key to the mystery that is at the core of the important argument between former Military Intelligence commanders may be found in an anecdote told by former MI head Amos Malka to Akiva Eldar (Haaretz, June 11)". --Timeshifter (talk) 04:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Did you have a chance to review WP:UNDUE? Apparently only one article, in one small circulation newspaper, saw fit to print this fairly sensational claim. Please focus on elements of the intifada that have been more widely discussed. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Former Military Intelligence commanders on the record. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

In Israel's newspaper of record. (For editors new to this page, Jay is arguing that Israel's most influential newspaper, which he compares to the Cedar Rapids Gazette, is of limited weight and significance because of the size of its print run.)

Beer! You have yet again presented a straw man argument on my behalf. I win this round, so it's now five to two in my favor. Care to try again? Jayjg ^(talk) 12:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It is a single article in a newspaper with a small circulation of approximately 65,000, about the same as the Cedar Rapids Gazette. As for the rest... etc. etc. You are a moron, Jay.--G-Dett (talk) 13:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! Another personal attack! 8 to 2 for me now! Jayjg ^(talk) 02:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you have a second source mentioning the million bullets? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course you're not sure what point he's making, lucid as it is; you've been too busy playing drinking games, shouting belligerently, and making a general ass of yourself.--G-Dett (talk) 12:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! Another personal attack. I win this round too! That's six to two for me. Care to play again? Jayjg ^(talk) 12:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If "playing" means enduring another of your beery, rancid eructations, I don't see that I have a choice. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, even witless oafs and consummate morons.--G-Dett (talk) 13:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Beer! Another personal attack! 9 to 2 for me now! Jayjg ^(talk) 02:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you all please just stop for a moment and read the above discussion to see just how inane it has become? Jayjg, you have yet to explain how WP:UNDUE is appplicable here. Haaretz is an unimpeachable source by our WP:RS standards. The other editors concerned here want to see that one sentence mentioned in a Haaretz article mentioned here. It is not undue to do that. In fact, it is what we do at Wikipedia - i.e. use reliable sources to write articles. There is nothing in WP:RS or WP:UNDUE that says if something is reported by only one source that we cannot use that material here. If you like, the info can be attributed to Haaretz or the military spokesman directly, but it's certainly relevant to this article and its not being repeated elsewhere is no reason to disallow its inclusion. Tiamut^talk 13:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Further, this material is indeed repeated elsewhere, making this entire discussion moot. See Lorenzo Veracini's Israel and Settler Society (2006), on page 154, where he repeats the same claim regarding the 1,300,000 bullets fired in the first few days of the Second Intifada. Also, Cheryl Rubenburg, in The Palestinians (2003) quoting Ma'ariv on page 354, writes of about 1 million bullets used in the first few days (700,000 in the West Bank and 300,000 in Gaza). Also, in Counterinsurgency in Modern Warfare] on page 279, the 1.3 million bullets figure in given again, quoting two articles in Haaretz, including the one cited here and another by Akiva Eldar. Noam Chomsky also writes of the million bullets fired in Hegemony Or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance (2004) on page 181, as does Clayton Swisher on page 387 of The Truth about Camp David (2004), and Yoram Peri in Generals in the Cabinet Room (2006). So besides the one Haaretz article listed above, we have another Haaretz article and one from Ma'ariv and about six different published scholarly works that say that anywhere between 1 million and 1.3 million bullets were fired by the IDF in the first few days of the Second Intifada. There are about a dozen more listed in Google Books. I rest my case. Tiamut^talk 13:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Tiamut. Can you expand on the bullet info added by Nudve here?: Second Intifada#Sharon visits the Temple Mount. More references, reasons, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a source citing Maariv reporter Ben Caspit as saying that during the first month, the Israeli Central Command fired 850,000 bullets, so I suppose the numbers add up. However, the current insertion of this info is weird. First of all, I don't think it belongs in the lead. Second, there's unnecessary commentary injected on the way. -- Nudve (talk) 14:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Nudve. Thanks for adding the info on the number of bullets to this section: Second Intifada#Sharon visits the Temple Mount. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments by Nudve regarding inappropriateness for the lead, and unnecessary commentary injected on the way. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting. It doesn't seem like the numbers add up, because the Central Command was the main participating unit in the Intifada, so it seems strange that if it fired less than a million bullets in the first month, the entire army somehow fired over a million in the first few days. However, 1,300,000 bullets isn't that much anyway, it only looks like a lot, therefore from what I can see, its insertion anywhere in the article is just made for sensationalism and not to add anything substantiative to the article. Inserting this factoid into the lead section not only does that, but also seriously violates WP:UNDUE, as Jayjg correctly noted, because the lead should summarize the article and a small factoid published by only one source (no matter how reliable) clearly does not belong. Like in many other article, it seems here that certain editors believe that WP:V somehow automatically overrides WP:NPOV, which could not be further from the truth. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ynhockey. You have a conflict of interest, since you are in the IDF, and secondly you are allowing your own personal and rather puerile 'military' judgements to influence the assessment of Reliable Sources. Your sense of what administrative obligations entail and oblige you to do has been suspended, by the looks of it. You don't even, as a member of the IDF, understand the obscene implications, as a serving soldier writing of another people under your army's military occupation, of avowing that

'1,300,000 bullets isn't that much anyway'::Ynhockey.

For the record, your own military authorities were astonished by how much firepower their officers unleashed on the Palestinians.

'It later emerged that in the first days of the intifada the IDF fired missiles of various types and no less than one million rounds of ammunition in the territories. Officers in Central Command said this was an astronomical figure that testified to what happened in the field.' Yoram Peri, Generals in the Cabinet Room: How the Military Shapes Israeli Policy, US Institute of Peace Press, 2006 p.99.Nishidani (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, I'm surprised to see you here, I thought you "indefinitely blocked" yourself. Anyway, Israel, much like Switzerland, is a country with a compulsory draft and reserve duty, so most citizens end up serving in the army. Ynhockey has no more "conflict of interest" than any other Israeli. Now, please stop soapboxing, and Comment on content, not on the contributor. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Jayjg - please can you spell that out - are you saying that pointing a gun (or being a member of a group that points guns) at members of one party to a "dispute" does not indicate CoI when writing an article about it? PR^talk 13:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani's point (lost on you, since your time is apparently better to devoted to playing drinking games is in the second part of her his statement. That is, that IDF officials themselves found the number of bullets to be unusually high (meaning, even if one takes one's identity as an IDF soldier into account as constitutive of some sort of bias, an individual such as this was able to see the number as obsence) and that its results were translated into the high casualty figures seen on the field of action (providing a rebuttal to the argument by Canadian Monkey and Nudve above regarding relevancy). Please spend less time playing virtual university drinking games and more reading what other editors provide you in the way of scholarly sources. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 02:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I didn't read past the words "Lost on you". Comment on content, not on the contributor. Care to try again? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I have stricken the offending portion. Please give a substative reply. Tiamut^talk 04:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani has yet to strike the offending portions of his reply; I didn't bother reading past the word "puerile". Jayjg ^(talk) 01:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's any reason for Nishidani to strike anything - whereas I can see a clear need for an experienced administrator to tell us the current state of policy on Conflicts of Interest. PR^talk 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Nor do I think – with all respect for Tiamut's graciousness – that there's any reason to believe that editors who have refused to participate seriously in discussion will suddenly alter course when their whimsical personal demands are met.--G-Dett (talk) 13:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ynhockey, Nishidani, and Tiamut. You all make some good points. I think the level of firepower used on demonstrators, rioters, and casual bystanders caught in the fire is implied by the number of deaths and injuries in the first 5 days. That is mentioned in the first couple paragraphs of the article.

I think the details, numbers, and opinions concerning the weaponry and munitions used merits a more nuanced, sourced description farther down in the article. It is too complex to be in the lead section in my opinion. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that by "the first month" they meant September, and since the riots broke near the end of that month, it does make sense. BTW, their conclusion is that either the soldiers were firing "just for the noise" or were poor marksmen. Anyway, there seems to be consensus that the lead is not the right place for this, so I'll just add it to the relevant section. -- Nudve (talk) 07:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Bullet info and reasons in article

Thanks to Nudve for adding some bullet info to the article. See Second Intifada#Sharon visits the Temple Mount. Please add more info. I don't know if Nudve and Tiamut saw my recent request farther up on this talk page to add more info and reference links. Also, some of the sourced opinions from military people, etc. as to why so many bullets were fired in the first few days. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Timeshifter, I only noticed that request just now. I'll try to get around to it in the coming days. Been sidetracked pursuing a DYK milestone (just a few away from 25 right now). Good suggestion and as the sources are listed above, anyone interested in beating me to it, is welcome to give it a stab before I do. Happy editing. Tiamut^talk 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph of intro

Please see this diff: [1]

It shows the 2 versions below.

Timeshifter version

"Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque, built on Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. Then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon made a controversial visit September 28, 2008 to the Temple Mount, a site held sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Rioting with injuries occurred that day at the Temple Mount soon after he left. Major clashes with deaths occurred elsewhere the next day. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885.

Jayjg version

"Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque, built on Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. The beginning date of the Second Intifada is disputed, but the first major clashes occurred on September 29, 2000, the day after a controversial visit by then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount, a site held sacred by both Jews and Muslims. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885.

Discussion

The lead section should not try to include all elements of an article. That is impossible. Jayjg returned an unnecessary element of complex opinion into the lead section: "The beginning date of the Second Intifada is disputed."

It merits a separate, more-nuanced, description and sourcing farther down in the article. There is already a section in the article for that. Since some people believe that the Second Intifada started with events happening before Sharon's visit, then not mentioning those other events in the lead section biases the article in some peoples minds.

Removing "The beginning date of the Second Intifada is disputed" takes that whole complex discussion and bias debate out of the lead.

More importantly Jayjg removed the fact (not opinion) of the riots and injuries on the day of Sharon's visit.

Most importantly of all, Jayjg also removed 4 mainstream news media reference links describing events on September 28, and the following days. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Your proposed changes remove the fact that the start date is disputed, thus violating WP:NPOV. They also add too much detail about the clashes, adding original research from primary sources (newspaper reports). Jayjg ^(talk) 05:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. I integrated the info from the section called "Start of the Second Intifada". Please see my expanded second version farther down. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe we're seeing your time being wasted this way over this entirely worthless "dispute". It's not even clear there is any "dispute" - at most, it could only be a difference of opinion bearing no relation to anything anyone cares about. PR^talk 14:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter's second version

"Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque, built on Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. On September 28, 2000 Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon made a controversial visit to the Temple Mount, a site held sacred by both Jews and Muslims. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885.

The starting date of the Second Intifada is disputed. On September 27, 2000 Sgt. David Biri was killed; some Israeli sources view this as the start of the Intifada. Others view the start to be the September 28 riots and injuries soon after Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif. Others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, the day of prayers, when there was the introduction of police and military presence, and there were major clashes with deaths. Still others believe that it started with the video of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah being shot on September 30. Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada.

Synthesis discussion

Concerning the intro. Info on the opinions concerning when the Second Intifada started should include the basic events. Otherwise it violates WP:NPOV. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I reverted Jayjg's vandalism. See these diffs: [2] [3]. Huge amount of reference material removed by Jayjg.

I believe "vandalism" is the correct word. Correct me if I am wrong. If a newbie had come along and deleted such a large amount of reference links and reference notes, then I don't think most people would have much disagreement with the word "vandalism" being used.

The info that the reference material backed up had been moved up by me from farther down in the article. The info and the reference links had been there awhile. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is unfair to characterize these edits as vandalism. The lead has been under dispute for much time, and I think it is legitimate to view the other version as included far too much detail in the lead. Also, Jayjg's version does include the basic events; it states that the first major violence began after Ariel Sharon's controversial visit, and it mentions the high number of Palestinian casualties in the first five days. What more do you want? I think that Jayjgs' version is more in line with WP:NPOV than the other version, since it outright states that the start date is disputed, before delving into a description of events; whereas the second version defers this disclaimer until much later. ← Michael Safyan ^(talk) 20:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Your version violated WP:LEDE, in that it devoted an absurd amount of space to your theories about the start of the initifada. It also violate WP:NOR, since you used primary sources (newspapers) to assert that sources states the intifada started on the 28th, when they didn't make that claim at all; they didn't even use the word "intifada". Finally, removing your policy violations is not "vandalism"; please review WP:VANDAL. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the argument that Timeshifter's second version contains too much detail for the lead. But what was wrong with his first version? I don't think the charge of original research holds; yes, there are contemporary news reports, technically primary sources, but policy doesn't forbid the use of primary sources, it just warns that it's easy to use them for original research. In this case they aren't used that way. There are plenty of secondary sources that cite those same events as the beginning of the second intifada; there's no OR.

The problem with Jay's version is that even though it acknowledges a dispute about which day the second intifada, it then weighs in on that dispute – thereby violating NPOV – by leaving out the events of the 28th and saying "major clashes" didn't occur until the 29th.

TS's first version is concise, accurate, carefully and neutrally phrased with regards to the dispute, and free of original research.--G-Dett (talk) 03:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The version farther down (Timeshifter's third version) goes back to a 2-paragraph lead section. Here on this talk page is the entire lead section (2 paragraphs) followed by the section titled Start of the Second Intifada. As Michael Safyan suggested the dispute is now out of the lead section.

The paragraph for that new (non-lead) section was originally farther down in the article, and had been there for awhile. Jayjg, you deleted that paragraph completely which is what prompted the vandalism discussion. There are multiple sources for the opinions in that paragraph. Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Jayjg, you have been editing some of those reference link details. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter's third version (includes both lead paragraphs)

Note: To see this with working reference links go to this version of the article: [4].

The Second Intifada, also known as the al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat El Aqṣa; Hebrew: אינתיפאדת אל-אקצה, Intifādat El-Aqtzah) is the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in September 2000. The death toll to date, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be over 5,300 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, including 64 foreign citizens.

"Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque, built on Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. On September 28, 2000 Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon made a controversial visit to the Temple Mount, a site held sacred by both Jews and Muslims. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885.

---

Might I suggest an alternate phrasing for the second paragraph, a little less reptitive while reflecting both Muslim and Jewish terminology for the Haram/Temple?

Beginning from here:

"Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque that is located at a site sacred to both Muslims and Jews, known as the Haram al-Sharif or Temple Mount. On September 28, 2000, Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon made a controversial visit to the site. In the first five days after the visit ....

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiamut (talk • contribs) 13:54, 13 November 2008

Start of the Second Intifada

The starting date of the Second Intifada is disputed. On September 27, 2000 Sgt. David Biri was killed; some Israeli sources view this as the start of the Intifada. Others view the start to be the September 28 riots and injuries soon after Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif. Others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, the day of prayers, when there was the introduction of police and military presence, and there were major clashes with deaths. Still others believe that it started with the video of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah being shot on September 30. Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada.

More discussion

I think this solves the problem discussed by Michael Safyan about trying to put too much in the lead section. It moves the whole dispute out of the lead and puts it into the following section. It is a logical location in the beginning of the article, but not in the lead section of the article.

It includes primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Some of the sources and reference notes were added by Jayjg.

G-Dett pointed out that including in the lead section only one POV about what is considered the "official" start of the Second Intifada according to some opinions is against WP:NPOV. So now the whole dispute is out of the lead section. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

--Timeshifter, thanks for the solid work in here. However, there is a problem, as I have noted several times, both with the note to Sergeant Biri (an Israeli official obituary which merely notes who he was, and does not mention the intifada) and with the 'some sources' (weasel language) which turns out to be a single statement by a agenda-pushing activist and non-historian, Mitchell Bard, an economist and political scientist who directs the Jewish Virtual Library. For statements like these, one must used stringently, historical sources of the highest quality. Bard writes:-

Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, admitted months after Sharon's visit that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." "It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former US president and rejected the American conditions."“The Sharon visit did not cause the ‘Al-Aksa Intifada.’” Conclusion of the Mitchell Report, (May 4, 2001)

The violence started before Sharon's September 28, 2000, visit to the Temple Mount. The day before, for example, an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.

I.e. Bard says it was planned long before, instances an incident (not mentioning Biri) at Netzarim Junction (So the pagehere has a WP:SYNTH violation), but does not say this incident was the beginning, but merely an 'example' of pre-Sharon walk violence, (therefore the lines are also a violation (WP:OR). I have asked for a RS for this theory. None has been forthcoming. Extraordinary claims require, as we are told ad nauseam, very strong sources, and this thus violates, were it not, as it is, a synthesis based on an inference from Bard's pamphlet, WP:FRINGE. Nishidani (talk) 17:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In general, as an editorial guarantee of seriousness, I would suggest that each contemporary newspaper ref., be accompanied by at least one reliable academic historical source. They exist in abundance, and the overwhelming majority I have consulted associate the outbreak with the reaction on the 29th of September to Sharon's walk. This is virtually an historical consensus, despite the obfuscation and cunctatorial tactics employed here to deny it.Nishidani (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Encarta associates it with a failure of the Camp David talks in the summer of 2000.[5][6] Doesn't mention Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Encarta?--G-Dett (talk) 03:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(1)One government source says Biri was killed

(2)Mitchell Bard says the day before Sharon's walk, there was an incident at Netzarim in which a soldier was killed.

(3)The text has synthesized these two sources, connecting up the dots, with an editor saying Biri was killed at Netzarim. This is a legitimate inference, but neither text (a) nor text (b) says this was the beginning of the Intifada

(4) Jayjg now add Ini Gilead's article in Camera challenging the WSJ. If Camera is accepted as RS, most of that info relates to the detailed accounts of hypotheses below. Gilead connected Netzarim with Biri, but does not explicitly say this was the beginning of the intifada. That is an inference several editors have made. Most of the article is devoted to the hypothesis, discounted by academic literature, and the Mitchell report, that the Intifada was planned. You need an explicit statement that Biri and the Netzarim incident constitute the beginning of the intifada,(which then was suspended for two days, queerly, until real riots broke out)

(5)There is by now a vast literature on this. CAMERA, the Jewish Virtual Library and Israeli government obituaries, let alone Encarta, are not the quality sources Wikipedia asks for in articles. If you want to stick Biri in (FRINGE THEORY) you need an exceptionally strong source.Nishidani (talk) 10:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The CNN reference article says that Sgt Biri was attacked on Sept 27 and died Sept 28, 2000. See:

• http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/28/jerusalem.violence.02/

I did a Google search:

• http://www.google.com/search?q=sgt+biri

It pulled up the following from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

• http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2000/Sgt+David+Biri.htm

I think the Sgt Biri death is very important to the article, and should be near the top of the article since it occurred on the same day as the first rioting with injuries. Personally, I think it ratcheted up the tension. The Sharon visit further ratcheted up tension, and was the final spark that set things off. Both were provocations.

But this is just my opinion. Claims about the importance of the Sgt Biri attack need to be sourced in the article. What did the Israeli public think at the time? I don't think what historians and pundits say afterward is nearly as important as the news reports and public opinion at the time. Do we have sources for that? Both types of sourcing are important. Pundits and sourced public opinion/news. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion, which you retain in the face of a lack of sources. The only academic source that mentions Biri in this context is Anthony Cordesman's book in an extensive list of incidents of terror over that decade which however excludes any parallel list on incidents affecting Palestinian lives. Sergeant Biri's death if noted as one which influenced Israeli public opinion and IDF behaviour, creates automatically an NPOV imbalance, since the intifada also has a Palestinian motivation going back decades, and which could cite children, men and women killed, territorial dispossession, curfews, raid and restrictions in the year leading up to the Al-Aqsa intifada, down to August. As it is, the text personalizes Israeli victims, and depersonalizes the Arab 'mob'. By putting Biri here you are opening up the way for people to put in the names of Palestinians killed by IDF and settler violence in the days, and weeks leading up the the uprising. Bad policy.Nishidani (talk) 15:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. In my 4th version (see below) I did not make any claims about the importance of his death. It is only mentioned in the context of the immediate background of the start of the Second Intifada. If there were any Palestinians killed in the 2 months between Camp David and the beginning of the Intifada, then they should be mentioned in that section also.

The longer history and background is farther down in the article. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

intro images

I remember this page used to have two images at the start, one with Muhammad al-Durrah and another that showed a blown up public bus. It makes sense to show both for neutrality, but the latter is now gone, which I think isn't very neutral. Grey Fox (talk) 03:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The previous images had been deleted due to copyright problems. They weren't removed by editors of the article. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

oh, well maybe someone could use a "historic event" fair use for it, because that's what the current image also has. Grey Fox (talk) 03:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Third Intifada warnings

per following 3rd intifada concern by Timeshifter - [7]

While there's no official date for the end of the Second Intifada, its quite notable that there's already warnings by PA officials that if the peace talks won't work out there is a risk for a third Intifada. I'd be interested in an explanation on why others might feel this to be inappropriate for mention in the lead.

• Relevant source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3148681,00.html

Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC) add diff 16:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's highly speculative information sourced to recent media reports. Integrating it into the article might be possible, but I see little justification for putting it in the lede section. It is important to avoid personal judgment of what is "quite notable" in the absence of reliable secondary sources about the topic of the article, ie, scholarly books, academic papers, etc about the al-Aqsa intifada. If those start to include prominent speculation about a third intifada then so should we; unless and until they do, we have no business trying to lead the pack. Relevant policies here would be WP:OR#SYN, WP:UNDUE, and WP:CRYSTAL. <eleland/talkedits> 17:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I find the mass revert by Jaakobou objectionable because Timeshifter has been systematically proposing for others to vet them his edits, point by point, on the talk page, whereas the text he is working on collaboratively has been reverted holus bolus by someone who has not participated in these discussions, and reintroduces many controversial points that have not been approved of consensually. Some important things seem to have been dropped. This is a notoriously bad article, and Timeshifter has established a logical, programmatic way of revising it. Nothing personal here. It is a matter of method and respect. Nishidani (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, if you're going to violate your own block,[8] I would request you use it to mentor fellow problem editors rather than advocate how you always find Israelis objectionable. My respective edits as well as the addition of a 3rd Intifada speculations which have been contested by Timeshifter can always be better discussed without the superimposed drama. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou has been discussing his edit her e- take note of which section you are posting your comments. By contrast , Timeshifter mass reverted all of Jaakobou's edits, with a (perhaps inadvertently) misleading edit summary that said "3rd Intifada should not be in the lead." - while undoing substantially more than that. Please focus on content and edits, not editors. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter has made over 50 comments on this talk page, Jaakobou one, you two. I.e. he's worked his arse off, while a few others snipe. To make one comment is not to discuss. It is to make an obiter dictum and then go to executive mode. Please focus on understanding what we are discussing, read the whole thread, and and not simply drop by for a vote of solidarity. Nishidani (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Since you apparently have not read what I wrote, let me repeat: Timeshifter mass reverted all of Jaakobou's edits, with a (perhaps inadvertently) misleading edit summary that said "3rd Intifada should not be in the lead." - while undoing substantially more than that. If you are truly concerned with "a matter of method and respect", you would have commented on that. Instead, you focus on personal attacks on Jaakobou, on me, and anyone else who disagrees with you. Please focus on content and edits, not editors. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You apparently do not understand that Jaakobou does not own the page. Nor do you nor I. Jaakobou has not achieved a consensus, nor have you. Neither of you have been visible on this talk page for the past three months. To state that is not to make a personal attack. It is simply to register the facts. Editing without discussion on your parts.Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have specific objections to edits Jaakobou has made, make them. If you have specific objections to edits I made, make them. If you don't, shut up, and stop commenting on editors. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

To repeat, observe the courtesies, and discuss edits you both would like to make before preceding with them. This is more or less what others do. I see no reason to allow you both a privileged exemption from the proprieties of collegial editing.Nishidani (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't made any edits. Jaakobou is discussing his edit in this section - notice the first post in it, and who wrote it. If you have something substantial to add to the discussion initiated by Jaakobou - do so. If you don;t - stop making personal comments about editors. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

'If you have something substantial to add to the discussion - do so.'

You, Canadian Monkey, have contributed zilch so far.

Thus de te fabula narratur.

I thought, as an old hand on this page, that Timeshifter was endeavouring to seriously work the page after its long neglect, and showed my appreciation by trying to help out, which also means contradicting him on several things. I see this is now going to turn out as another battleground, with the usual tagteam kibitzing by people who edit other people's work without troubling to study the subject and contribute independently. So I'll withdraw. And eagerly watch as you demonstrate your until now secret, but undoubtedly impressive knowledge of the intifada. Good luck Nishidani (talk) 21:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Adiós, then. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Not_a_crystal_ball. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

See Franz H.Mautner (hrsg.) Lichtenberg: Sudelbücher,Insel, Frankfurt am Main 1983 p.386 lines 3-4Nishidani (talk) 22:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Jayjg. Here is the direct link:

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball --Timeshifter (talk) 01:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Heyo Timeshifter,
I'm not sure I can follow the WP:SYN issue since I'm not combining any pieces on information into my own analysis. I believe YNET is a fairly respected reliable source for Wikipedia standards and if they say that a Third intifada almost here and Muhammad Ranaim, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, and a Fatah leader, said a third intifada was very possible then I just don't follow your argument. On a side note, I request that you avoid mass reverting my tweaks to the article. I put considerable thought into phrasing them in a respectable and neutral manner and unless you have proper concerns, then it is a bit rude to just wipe out my efforts.
With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not wipe them out. I incorporated the only substantive change you made which was to mention Camp David earlier on in the article. It shouldn't be in the lead though. No one wants it there but you. There has been long discussion about the lead, and we had arrived at a consensus. No one was making major changes to the lead anymore. Then you parachuted in without discussion. Try discussing things first. Right now no one wants the third Intifada info in the article. Have you read what Jayjg pointed out?: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball

And this article is about the Second Intifada. We have enough trouble editing it without bringing in additional topics into this article. Please stay on topic. Are you aware of this?: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#ArbCom authorizes discretionary sanctions --Timeshifter (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

To give a brief outside opinion, I would say that a soft mention only of what is known is OK, and any other speculation should not be tolerated. I would urge contributers to this article to lean to WP:CRYSTAL if there is any doubt on the content. Of course, I have no power, that's just my humble opinion. Thanks for taking my input.--Res2216firestar 03:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter,

I believe there's an error of assessment here. I'm not suggesting a third Intifada may occur but added a 3 word indication that a 3rd one was threatened despite the fact that there isn't a set date for the end of the second intifada. This is not a crystal ball issue, but a fairly clear threat by multiple Palestinian leaders. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There are all kinds of threats. This is an article about the Second Intifada. We could put in the threats of groups, pundits, and people from all sides. We don't have the room. Once we start, then we have to put more in. That just takes more time, and unnecessarily increases the length of the article. And it is off topic. Start another article about threats if you want. See if it survives AFD deletion discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd appreciate an explanation to "groups, pundits, and people from all sides". Res2216firestar noted his perspective (which co-insides with mine), that a soft mention would be OK. Are you concerned about POV or only about undue or is there something else? If you can give a few examples that would fit the lead as neatly as this issue and would end up cluttering it, I might be more susceptible to let go of this interesting info for the lead (this is really not 'new article' material).

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Res said to "I would urge contributers to this article to lean to WP:CRYSTAL if there is any doubt on the content." Well, there is doubt because of the problems I mentioned, and because there is no support for adding it to the article. You have to get consensus or at least majority support before adding that material. Who else but you supports adding that material? --Timeshifter (talk) 00:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter's 4th version

Note. To see this version with working links please go here: [9]

The Second Intifada, also known as the al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat El Aqṣa; Hebrew: אינתיפאדת אל-אקצה, Intifādat El-Aqtzah) is the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000. "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque that is located at a site sacred to both Muslims and Jews; Haram al-Sharif or Temple Mount, in the Old City of Jerusalem. The death toll to date, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be over 5,300 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, including 64 foreign citizens.

Immediate background and start of the Second Intifada

The Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David from July 11 to July 25, 2000 took place between United States President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. It failed with both sides blaming the other for the failure of the talks. There were four principal obstacles to agreement: territory, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, refugees and the 'right of return', and Israeli security concerns.

On September 27, 2000 Sergeant David Biri of the Israeli Defense Forces was critically injured in a bomb attack near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip. He died the next day.

The starting date of the Second Intifada is disputed. Some view the start to be the September 28 riots and injuries soon after then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif. Others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, the day of prayers, when there was the introduction of police and military presence, and there were major clashes with deaths. Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885. 5 Israelis (including Sgt. David Biri) were killed by Palestinians.

4th version discussion

This version incorporates Jaakobou's idea of mentioning Camp David near the top of the article. That is a good idea. I don't think it should be in the lead though.

Were there any Palestinians killed in the 2 month period between Camp David and the beginning of the Second Intifada? --Timeshifter (talk) 02:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Camp David conflict

Per the following diff - [10]

• Relevant text:
  following the failure of the [[2000 Camp David Summit|Camp David peace talks]], a part of of a joint effort to end the disputes.

Any special reason on why you believe that the Camp David failure should be excluded from mention in the lead? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Because no one wants it there but you after long discussion. A long discussion you haven't participated in.

Also, you are parachuting into what was a successful editing endeavor, and then bringing up old resolved stuff like the image caption. Why not wait a week before bringing back those kinds of offtopic changes, and stick to this area of discussion for awhile? And try discussing first. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Timeshifter,

I'm not aware of this "no one" you're referring to since, as of now, you're the only person raising objections to the changes in the text. I'd appreciate a more content related explanation on why you believe a mention of Camp David in the lead should be avoided.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Camp David should not be in the lead because Camp David was before the Second Intifada. No one who participated in the prior discussion is supporting you. It is up to you to get consensus, or even majority support, before inserting new material into the lead section. The lead section has been the subject of much of the prior discussion. Have you read all of the prior discussion? Are you familiar with Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#ArbCom authorizes discretionary sanctions? It seems you are in the group of editors with the most blocks. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/I-P editing battleground statistics#Editors blocked in last 12 months. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter,

I'm not following your "pre" argument. The prelude to the fighting was the failure of the peace talks. I really don't understand why you'd consider this irrelevant for the WP:LEAD. Certainly the Camp David talks are mentioned in many of the books and articles that speak of the Second Intifada in general terms and I fail to see why this (IMHO clearly encyclopedic) addition would be contested. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou. Please see this diff of your last mass reversion: [11]. In my last version the Camp David info is a whole paragraph in the first section after the lead. Are you reading what I have written? Are you reading the article itself? Look at my 4th version on this talk page. Please edit constructively rather than edit war without thoroughly reading the article and the talk page. Your last block was for "edit warring without discussion - blocked per ARBPIA". You are doing the same thing again. Please see WP:ARBPIA.

You talk about moving the Camp David info to the top. Yet you moved a whole paragraph of Camp David info from near the top of the article (in the section after the lead) to much farther down in the article.

You also completely removed sourced info (and the references) on the number of Palestinian and Israeli casualties the first 5 days of the Intifada. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom restrictions

I'm seeing some recent edit-warring on this article, with the "undo" button being used to reverse good faith edits. I'm also seeing uncivil edit summaries. Please everyone, take a deep breath, and just talk things out. Also, as a reminder, this article falls within the scope of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions. As such, uninvolved administrators (such as myself) are empowered to place discretionary sanctions to ensure the smooth running of the project. This might include editing restrictions on the article itself (such as "no reverts"), or restrictions on specific editors, such as a ban from editing this article for a certain amount of time. Currently I am not placing any restrictions, though I did want to remind everyone that this is a possibility. So please, try to discuss things on the talkpage, don't engage in edit wars, and keep comments and edit summaries civil. Thanks, --Elonka 20:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem you've got is that serious racists have arrived there are a few editors around who seem determined to paint the victims look like the perpetrators. This is the exact same thing that happened at Muhammad al-Durrah, where administrator action such as yours opened the field for freshly arrived editors to poison the article. PR^talk 21:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered, please do not use such inflammatory language as "racists" towards other editors. Instead, just comment on the content of the article, not on the contributors, thanks. --Elonka 22:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see this mass-reversion undo diff made after your warning [12]. The problem seems to be editors who parachute into this article to support their friends without reading the talk page or the article. NoCal100 hasn't participated in any of the discussion concerning the lead and the first section after the lead. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

As you are quite aware, I have participated in the discussion, below, and explained the reasons for my revert. You have engaged me in that discussion, so you are obviously aware of its existence, which makes your comment above, at best, disingenuous. NoCal100 (talk) 01:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You discussed the image caption after doing the mass reversion of much more than the image caption. You did the mass reversion after the warning from Elonka. As I asked before, are you aware of WP:ARBPIA? --Timeshifter (talk) 01:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No, that's false and misleading. I discussed my changes to the caption here, at 00:37, prior to making any revert. At 00:38, in response to this, you started your own section about the caption, to which I responded at 00:47, and again at 00:52. Yet after having exchanged comments with me twice on this very topic, at 00:56 you decide to pop up at the previous section and complain about me, claiming I supposedly "[haven't] participated in any of the discussion". As I wrote, this is disingenuous, at best. I repeat: I am more than happy to discuss my changes, as I have done in the past - but I don't appreciate you attempting to wikilawyer and get your opponents blocked to get the upper hand in a content dispute, especially when you have been equally guilty of mass reverts. NoCal100 (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Later note. There is an even earlier mass-reversion undo by NoCal100. See this diff: [13] from 19:13, 15 November 2008. It was before Elonka's warning at 20:04, 15 November 2008. This first undo was before the first discussion by NoCal100 on 00:37 November 16 2008. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You discussed the image caption one minute before doing a mass reversion of much more than the image caption. You did this mass reversion after the warning from Elonka. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I discussed it before reverting, and I engaged you in further discussion 20 minutes later, and after that, you saw fit to complain about me supposedly not discussing things. Would you care to explain why you did that? NoCal100 (talk) 01:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You did not discuss anything actually. Discussion is a 2-way conversation. On this talk page you mentioned the image caption at 00:37 November 16 2008 and then did a mass reversion of much more than the image caption at 00:38. This was before the discussion I started farther down on the image caption. You did not discuss any of the other major changes you made with your mass reversion. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I engaged you in further discussion 20 minutes later, and after that, you saw fit to complain about me supposedly not discussing things. Would you care to explain why you did that? NoCal100 (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

2-way discussion and consensus, or at least majority support, is supposed to happen before controversial editing. You still have not discussed the many other changes made by your mass-reversion undo. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I engaged you in a 2-way discussion 20 minutes after my edit, and after that, you saw fit to complain about me, with a false accusation that I was supposedly not discussing things. Do you have an explanation why you did that? NoCal100 (talk) 02:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Because discussion and consensus (or at least majority support) is supposed to happen before controversial edits. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

So, because you disagree with my edits or the way I make them, you chose to place a false claim about me? Is that it? I am still waiting for an explanation why you claimed I was not discussing things AFTER you had been discussing these edits with me.NoCal100 (talk) 02:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see my previous replies, and the comments by Elonka requesting no more mass-reversion undos. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, no need to measure posting times to the microsecond. I accept NoCal100's explanation that he (she?) was unaware of my talkpage note. Moving forward though, can we proceed with changes more slowly, rather than doing these bulk reverts? --Elonka 06:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you going to deal with shockingly time-wasting, anti-policy and personally offensive contributions such as this? In case you're wondering, the RS being objected to on that occasion is Haaretz - one of the two top Israeli newspapers. It is beyond belief that there is edit-warring to keep out solid information from this RS such as: "1,300,000 bullets fired by Israeli forces in the first few days of the Intifada" - and that this was "not a war on terror, but on the Palestinian people" and "first three months ... Israeli casualties was low ... IDF proudly cited the large number of Palestinian casualties". Administrative attention is indeed required - are you determined enough to deal with the incredible levels of disruptive editing we're seeing?

Please note, on many other occasions "uninvolved administrators" coming to articles have immediately been set upon personally with accusations of bias. It is not my intention to do this to you - but it is urgent that we get a confidence building statement that you're going to work to policy and not against it. PR^talk 11:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) PR. The bullet info and Haaretz source was added by Nudve to the article on November 12, 2008. Please see this diff: [14]. Feel free to expand on it with more sourced info. See Tiamut's comments on the subject. She found much info, and many reliable sources. Please see these diffs: [15] and [16] --Timeshifter (talk) 11:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I was aware that the actual figure "1.3 million bullets" had been re-introduced, tucked away as the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph of section "Sharon visits the Temple Mount". We've totally ignored the context in which it was always used and the horror it provoked. That's just another example of the totally inadequate treatment we give to the widely (almost universally?) held belief that Israel was just ready and waiting to launch a devastating attack on the entire Palestinian peoples. Let's not forget the other things that appeared even in the Israeli press - "nearly total destruction of the [Palestinian Ministry of Culture's] contents and particularly its high-tech equipment ... Someone even managed to defecate into a photocopier." That clip is from 2002 - every PA asset got this treatment or worse. (I could go on - eg the statement "A spate of suicide bombings launched against Israel elicited a military response" is effectively a propaganda falsehood).

I'm not pushing for the inclusion of anything as specific as the above, but it's pointless to have a massively POV article, leaving out almost the entire narrative as it appeared in the RS and as is undoubtedly believed by one involved party. If we cannot produce an NPOV article, then I propose a new tag "This article is far below the standard that Wikipedia strives for and we really cannot improve it at this time". Such a tag would have uses in some other articles. PR^talk 12:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobu's recent edits

PalestineRemembered recently reverted all of Jaakobu's edits with an edit summary which reads 'Edit is beyond POV, inclusion of "The report, made by a local Palestinian stinger" is well-poisoning along similar lines to earlier "crack-head Arab"'. However, his revert encompassed much more than the edit he referred to in the summary. As such, it was inappropriate blanket reverting.

Addressing the specific issue he raises - "crack-head Arab" is a derogatory term, and is inappropriate. I haven't seen that comment used in the article, but assuming PalestineRemembered is correct, any such edit should be reverted. "local Palestinian stinger", on the other hand, is a neutral, factual description of the photographer in question, and bears no resemblance to 'crack head Arab', and I disagree with that rationale for the revert. NoCal100 (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

... that would be a "local Palestinian stringer" -- perhaps that is the confusion, maybe a misspelling? As NoCal100 says, it is not derogatory -- unlike "crack-head" of whatever ethnicity. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a typo, sorry. I'll fix it.NoCal100 (talk) 02:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Editors guilty of making antisemitic comments on these pages can and will and do get rightly indef-blocked. Editors who defend a terrorist organisation by obfuscating the time-line (eg here) and seek to paint all the victims (by nationality) as "militants" need to be warned (at a minimum) that such edits are unacceptable, whether they're actually carried out by racists or not.

Editors will note that I wasn't and haven't accused anyone of racism, whereas this looks very much like a direct imputation of antisemitism - content-free but calculated to block a significant improvement to an article. PR^talk 10:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Image:AlDurrah2.jpg caption

This has already been discussed. Please see Talk:Second Intifada/Archive 6#Image caption for Image:AlDurrah2.jpg. The following image caption has been used for a long time:

12-year-old Palestinian Muhammad al-Durrah became an icon of the Palestinian uprising in 2000 when he was killed on September 30, 2000 after being caught in a crossfire. Controversies continue over whether Palestinians or the Israeli Defense Forces killed him.

Please do not edit war over it. Please discuss changes before editing it further. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"Has been used a long time" is not a valid reason to keep something. A similar caption was previously in use in the Muhammad al-Durrah article, but following the recent developments (french court ruling of this summer), it was changed to reflect the growing skepticism about the authenticity of the image. This article should follow suit. NoCal100 (talk)

There is no consensus here, or even majority support, for changing the image caption. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There is consensus on the Muhammad al-Durrah article for the same image with a caption that does not state he was killed. If you'd like we can invite all those who participated in that discussion to reiterate their arguments here. NoCal100 (talk) 00:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It is up to you to get consensus, or even majority support, here. Are you familiar with Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#ArbCom authorizes discretionary sanctions? You can be blocked for doing the mass-reversion undo you just did [17]. You did it after a warning from Elonka higher up on this talk page. Are you reading all of the talk before parachuting into an article to tag-team with another editor? --Timeshifter (talk) 01:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that ArbCom ruling. I assume you are equally aware of it, yet you mass reverted Jaakobu's edits. So please don't play these wikilawyering games with me. I am happy to discuss my changes, and yours, here on this page, in a collegial manner, and ask that you stop attempting to use the ArbCom whip as a way to get the upper hand in a content dispute. NoCal100 (talk) 01:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou made many changes in areas under long current discussion. He did not discuss any of it first. I have not mass reverted Jaakobou since the warning from Elonka. Several editors who have actually participated in the long discussion concerning the lead and the following section have mass reverted Jaakobou but not since the warning from Elonka. All of the editors who have participated in the long discussion have thoroughly explained why they reverted Jaakobou's changes. We could have reverted Jaakobou's changes piecemeal, but there was no need. Nothing he added was discussed before he added it, and no one who had participated in the long discussion supported his changes. His only supported substantive change was to move up discussion of Camp David. That was a good idea, but not in the lead. As has been thoroughly discussed. You participated in none of that discussion before or afterward. Only now you discuss the image caption. So you are doing mass reversions without discussion. You have been recently blocked for "edit warring" on multiple articles. Parachuting into multiple articles to do mass reversions without discussion is what WP:ARBPIA is meant to stop. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not see Elonka's warning, if that makes any difference. I saw that Nishandi mass reverted me, without participating in the discussion, and asking me to make my case- which I did, prior to any revert. Your other claims are simply false- you have , yourself linked to an active discussion about the caption between yourself and ,myself - Talk:Second Intifada/Archive 6#Image caption for Image:AlDurrah2.jpg - right at the beginning of this section. I don't believe someone who has four times as many blocks for edit warring as I have should be tossing out accusations and dragging people's block histories into this argument, but if that's the way you want to play it - don't be surprised when your less-than-squeky-clean record gets dragged into it. NoCal100 (talk) 01:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Later note: You counted wrong. I have 3 blocks in over 3 years of over 15,000 Wikipedia edits. None in the last year. One block you counted was overturned by another admin who did not see 3RR by me. Read the block log more carefully. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"I did not see Elonka's warning, if that makes any difference." It makes all the difference in the world. The fact that you do mass-reversion undos without justification, explanation, 2-way discussion, or reading the talk page. You did not discuss the massive changes you made before doing your mass reversion. You left a note only about the image caption one minute before doing your mass reversion at 00:38 November 16. That was your first discussion here on this talk page in a long time. I haven't been blocked for over a year. Ask almost any long time editor of Israeli-Palestinian issues if that is a good record, and they will tell you that it is a good record, especially since the WP:ARBPIA rulings in January 2008. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, If it makes a difference - I just told you that I hadn't seen it, move on. If you have substantive arguments regarding the caption, let's hear them. If, instead, you want to carry on like this, in the hopes of getting me blocked - be my guest- and be warned there's a pretty good chance that your own mass deletions, coupled with a track record as a serial edit warrior and disingenuous wikilawyering using false information will get you blocked as well. NoCal100 (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Your best hope is to do a self-revert of your mass-reversion undo of much more than the image caption. Then we can discuss changing the image caption. Talk first, change later. That's how it works. I stand by my record of over a year without blocks. After WP:ARBPIA I signed the member list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Members and signed on to the pledge to no more than 1RR per day. I don't see your name on that list, nor Jaakobou's. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, we can all see what your pledge is worth: At 13:56, 14 November 2008, you reverted Jaakobu, with and edit summary that explicitly calls it a revert, and then at 02:00, 15 November 2008 , you reverted him again, with an edit summary calling it an 'undo'. So, are you going to be removing your name from that list, or self reporting yourself for a violation of 1RR and asking that some admin block you? NoCal100 (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not perfect. 1RR is a goal, not a blockable policy. WP:3RR is blockable. Also, Jaakobou blanked a lot of material, and so reverting him could be called reverting vandalism according to some interpretations of WP:VANDAL. But I did not make that claim. So I am not always successful at meeting 1RR. It is very difficult to honor 1RR when multiple people parachute into an article in order to blank parts of an article. Blanking parts that have reached consensus after long discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It's funny, NoCal100. Your first comment in a long time on this talk page was to justify a mass-reversion undo. That comment immediately followed a talk section started by Elonka warning against doing mass-reversion undos. It shows that you parachute into articles to do tag-team mass-reversion undos without discussion. Or even reading. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have anything to add to the discussion about the edits , or are you just going to continue with these bad-faith accusations? Comment on edits, not editors. NoCal100 (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I am commenting on your edits, and your parachuting in to do mass-reversion undo edits without discussion first. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No, you are not commenting about my edits, but about my behavior. As an example, the comment "your parachuting in to do" is not about my edits, but about me. Again: Do you have anything to add to the discussion about the edits? NoCal100 (talk) 02:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anything about you. I am commenting on your edits. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, no. A comment that reads "your parachuting in to do.." is a comment about me, not about my edit. Do you have anything to add to the discussion about the edits? NoCal100 (talk) 02:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement (emphasis added): "ArbCom has already decided that certain types of behavior are not constructive to our purpose of building an encyclopedia and has ruled they should not recur." See also: WP:ARBPIA. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The first mass reversion undo

I think there is a lot of misinformation about what actually happened here recently. I did not do the first mass reversion. I edited Jaakobou's contributions, and then in other edits (see the edit history of the article) I did other edits that had nothing to do with Jaakobou's contributions.

Jaakobou then reverted both my edit of his additions, and all of my other unrelated edits. See this diff: [18].

It is easy to see the nature of the mass reversion by comparing Jaakobou's final results after both of his editing sessions. See this diff: [19]

Jaakobou hit the undo button for all my edits, and then deleted this: there are warnings of a possible third Intifada

That is the only difference between his 2 final results. By using the undo button haphazardly instead of separating out unrelated edits he did a mass reversion of totally unrelated editing of mine. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Though some might not regard it as fair, what I would really like to do at this point, is to just wipe the slate clean and try to move forward. I'd also really like if discussions could be focused strictly on the article, and not on other contributors. Thanks, --Elonka 06:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the only way to wipe the slate clean is to remove the initial mass reversion of my unrelated edits. Unrelated to Jaakobou's edits. I could easily do that, but then I might be accused of doing a mass reversion. Can I try? Actually, anybody could do it if they examine the edit history. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiping the slate clean. Lead section.

OK. Let's start again.

Initial Version

File:Non à l’intimidation.jpg

12-year-old Palestinian Muhammad al-Durrah became an icon of the Palestinian uprising in 2000 when he was killed on September 30, 2000 after being caught in a crossfire. Controversies continue over whether Palestinians or the Israeli Defense Forces killed him.

The Second Intifada, also known as the al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat El Aqṣa; Hebrew: אינתיפאדת אל-אקצה, Intifādat El-Aqtzah) is the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000. "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque, built on Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. The death toll to date, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be over 5,300 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, including 64 foreign citizens.

---

Jaakobou. What is this "initial version" that you inserted here? Can you leave a link to this version from the history? --Timeshifter (talk) 21:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou's version

Note: See this version link: [20]

File:Non à l’intimidation.jpg

12-year-old Palestinian Muhammad al-Durrah (left) became an icon of the Palestinian uprising in 2000 when he was reportedly killed by Israeli fire on September 30, 2000. The report, made by a local Palestinian stinger and the child's father (in picture), has been put into question and controversies continue over whether Palestinian militants or Israeli soldiers killed him.

The Second Intifada, also known as the al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat El Aqṣa; Hebrew: אינתיפאדת אל-אקצה, Intifādat El-Aqtzah) is the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000 following the failure of the Camp David peace talks, a part of of a joint effort to end the disputes.

"Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent Muslim mosque, constructed in the 7th century CE at the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, a location considered the holiest site in Judaism and third holiest in Islam; and "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off".

Though there are warnings of a possible third Intifada, there has not been declared an official end date to the Second one and the death toll to date, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be over 5,300 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, including 64 foreign citizens.

Timeshifter's version

Note: See this version link: [21]

The Second Intifada, also known as the al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى, Intifāḍat El Aqṣa; Hebrew: אינתיפאדת אל-אקצה, Intifādat El-Aqtzah) is the second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence, which began in late September 2000. "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off". "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent mosque that is located at a site sacred to both Muslims and Jews; Haram al-Sharif or Temple Mount, in the Old City of Jerusalem. The death toll to date, including both military and civilian, is estimated to be over 5,300 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis, including 64 foreign citizens.

Lead section discussion

Since Jaakobou removed the third intifada info from the lead there is little difference between the 2 lead sections. Jaakobou removed the Haram al-Sharif info. That needs to be returned to maintain WP:NPOV. That was Tiamut's request. No one objected to it being in the lead.

All recent previous discussion did not want previous history like the Camp David info in the lead section. This was to avoid trying to summarize too much history (of which there is a lot) in the lead section. To include some history, but not other history, was agreed to be unfair, and against WP:NPOV. So people wanted the background and history discussed in the immediately following sections.

The 2000 Camp David Summit info was in much more detail in the next section of the article in Timeshifter's version. See this version:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Intifada&oldid=251887089

That section was titled: "Immediate background and start of the Second Intifada." --Timeshifter (talk) 07:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your summary of events here Timshifter and think the work you have done towards improving the lead and opening sections below it to be praiseworthy. I'd like to see your version in place in the article because it addresses the POV issue I raised about Muslim and Jewish terminology for the Haram/Temple. I also think the third intifada info does not belong in the lead, or in the article at the present time (per the CRYSTAL concerns raised). Isee no compelling reason to retain Jaakobou's version. Tiamut^talk 14:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Notes:

1. I object that 'Haram al-Sharif' needs to be returned to maintain WP:NPOV. Certainly, we're not using the term Judea and Samaria in each and every article that mentions the West Bank and the same follows for this Arab-only terminology which is irrelevant to this article's lead. I would like to suggest that I'm open to compromise on this issue but I'd have to see if other issues are addressed collaboratively or in a similar manner as they have been addressed thus far (see also: WP:OWN, WP:GAME, WP:BATTLE).
2. Camp David is the most obvious part of the background to the article. WP:LEAD notes the following:
   The lead serves both as an introduction to the article below and as a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context
   A mere mention that Camp David just ended in failure establishes context in a neutral and encyclopedic manner.
3. Tiamut's prodding of and active participation in the recent edit-warring is a serious violation of the purpose of Wikipedia and it's best if similar activity would be avoided in the future as edits like the one made by PalestineRememebred are certainly not the kind we'd like to see in future I-P collaborations.
4. The other edits have been mass reverted as well, and I fail to see the value in mass reverting with a small debateable claim and then making a mass edit. However, I'm open for collaborative discussion where it's not suggested that there's already a consensus against a simple encyclopedic edit when there is non.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What harm does it do to include 'Haram al-Sharif'? Why argue over the small stuff? But I personally am not going to insist on its inclusion. I think though that you should respect Tiamut's desire to include it. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a rarely used Arab-only term and I would not expect Judea and Samaria to appear in all West Bank mentions either.

Why argue over the small stuff?

I'd appreciate an answer to that also as you've argued all my small stuff edits even when though they present neutral and encyclopedic content without promoting any pro/anti perspective. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You make small stuff into big stuff. For example; your insistence on including Camp David info in the lead. No one disagrees with Camp David info in the section after the lead. But you insist on it being in the lead no matter what others say. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It started with an objection to any mention of third intifada and followed by a disagreement on noting Camp David. Both were accompanied not by a removal of the small noted issue but with a complete removal of all my small fixes/improvements to the article. Basically, it felt like you're objecting me rather than the content and I even asked a couple admins to review my suggested notes to see if there's any concerns of bias that I should be made aware of. This was followed up by the PR/Nishidani/NoCal100/Tiamut war-games that I'm really uninterested in participating in - but honeslty, we can work out the differences nicely if you try working with me rather than continually charging me with going against everyone when you're the only one raising concern - and I'm not discounting your concerns, just the style in which they were raised. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not playing any "war games". Neither are the other editors you have listed above. Please do not make false accusations. Tiamut^talk 13:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Multiple people after long discussion have objected to background info of any kind being put in the lead. See the previous talk going back awhile. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Then perhaps, we should also remove the casualty notes as they are "background" style content. I'm thinking there's nothing wrong in a mention of the Camp David - it's very basic. Mind the question, but who objected and why? Too much POV pushing? Maybe we should have this listed with good order so it will be easily linked with multiple users signed as supporting this compromise so that new editors won't argue again and again on this point. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should try reading all the previous talk. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyhoo, A-Haram A-Sharif is a notable title for the Temple Mount, but it's a tad irrelevant for this article. As a simple example of reciprocal neutrality, I note that I would not expect Judea and Samaria to be mentioned every time the West Bank appears. This seems like a legitimate concern to me at least as I'm sure Tiamut would not appreciate the less English-mainstream title appearing everywhere on en-Wikipedia. Btw, we also don't have the name "Har HaBait" there and I haven't pushed in any form for it's inclusion.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou. I appreciate that you tried to revert back to a version that existed before all this started, but I think you went back too far. See this diff between my last version and your latest version. [22]. All of my edits are still deleted. Nearly all of my edits were in sections outside the lead where you were editing. And I am trying to negotiate (not impose) a synthesis version of the lead with this "wiping the slate clean" discussion.

I agree with you that Camp David is an obvious part of the background of the article. So are many other facts such as Yassir Arafat's postponement of the planned declaration of statehood for an independent Palestinian state on Sept 13, 2000. See CNN: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0009/10/sm.07.html - There are other important events between Camp David and the Second Intifada. That is why they should all be put in the article section that follows the lead.

By the way, your latest edit kept a paragraph of Camp David 2000 Summit info buried deep in the article. I had edited it, and moved it near the top of the article in the section after the lead since it is immediate background info. Can I move it back up? --Timeshifter (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello? Jaakobou? --Timeshifter (talk) 21:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Question. Why, in both versions, do we have Palestinian-Israeli violence in that order when the link inverts the order of the parties named, i.e. Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Nishidani (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No idea. Feel free to change it if no one objects. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this change. Timeshifter - note that "no one objects" is how you treat Nishidani and "no one agreed" is how you treat me. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Both require consensus or at least majority support. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Let us wait then for 5 more editors to support Nishidani's change. *shrug* Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In any case we wait before making changes that might be controversial. We wait for agreement, or we wait for objections. If we are bold, and make changes right away, then there is the possibility we might be reverted. At that point we wait now that we have discovered that a change is controversial. This is the essence or WP:1RR or Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What about non-controversial neutral changes? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

That's the question, isn't it? How is one ever really sure on Wikipedia? One can ask, or one can be bold, and see what happens. Both are viable options. But once something is found to be controversial then the WP:1RR method recommends discussion and consensus (or rough consensus). --Timeshifter (talk) 19:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Would work better if editors (Tiamut) wouldn't ask their pals to edit war for them (I'm not associated with NoCal). Let's try to work together... is there anything from my edit that you agree with and can be returned to the article? Possibly, the structure changes to the "Intifada"/"al-Aqsa" notes? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What are you referring to concerning Tiamut?

The intro was fine before you changed it. We had reached consensus. No one was objecting to it. "If it aint broke, don't fix it." All of your "Intifada"/"al-Aqsa" suggested changes are unnecessary. You are again arguing over location of material. It is fine in the lead. As for the Camp David info. It is fine in the following section. After long editing several editors were happy with the situation. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

As usual, Jaakobou seems to enjoy singling me out for attention. I can assure everyone that I do not ask anyone to make any edits on my behalf and that Jaakobou's statement is a personal attack that does not assume good faith. 13:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Moving on suggestion no.1

I would suggest breaking off the following from my edit and placing it inside the article:

"Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent Muslim mosque, constructed in the 7th century CE at the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, a location considered the holiest site in Judaism and third holiest in Islam; and "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off".

This could be linked as a redirect to explain the various naming conventions of the eventwithout going into too much detail in the lead. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC) clarify Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Why? The Second Intifada and Al-Aqsa Intifada are the 2 most common names. Both are very common names for this Intifada. How are people going to know what the name of the Intifada means? What if people arrived here by searching for Al-Aqsa or Intifada? What if they ended up arriving at the article via an Al-Aqsa redirect link, or an Intifada redirect link. Both terms need to be explained right away. Otherwise they may wonder why an Al-Aqsa link ends up at this article. They may also wonder about the meaning of the Arabic term Intifada, and why they are at this article. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

This is just a suggestion, but perhaps redirect the non-English terms to a "Meaning of Al-Aqsa Intifada" subsection inside this article. Certainly, the name is prominent enough to be noted in the lead, but I figure that the explanation is not a necessity for the lead itself. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

People are not very patient when looking for info. The first thing they want to know is if they are on the right page. So if we want to be most useful as an encyclopedia we tell them right away "You are here." Then we immediately define "here." --Timeshifter (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's why the title should appear in the lead. But the English translation... there's no special reason why that should stick in the lead rather than the body. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The name "Al-Aqsa Intifada" is completely meaningless without translation. Even "Second Intifada" is not much help. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I figure it is clarified in the lead that it refers to Israeli-Palestinian clashes starting September 2000. What is the special importance of adding that "Intifada" translates into "shaking off" in the lead rather than in the body? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Defining an article's title at the beginning is the logical starting point. Again, you are arguing over location. Substance of an article is more pressing. Let's work on that. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that we agreed on the inclusion of the added input. Would you be open to external opinions on whether this should appear in the lead or possibly within the body of the article? I would prefer if this be based on reasoned arguments rather than the usual suspects and I assure you to accept general consensus where people may agree or disagree with my suggestion. Let me know. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Start of the Second Intifada

Reliable secondary sources indicate that the Second intifada began on September 29th, after prayers, and the day after Sharon's visit. Please stop using primary sources (newspaper reports) to insert the original research that the Second intifada began on the 28th. The articles in question don't claim the intifada started on the 28th; indeed, how could they, since they didn't even have a name for what was happening, or any idea that serious violence would break out the next day, and continue for years? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg. You removed referenced text, and 4 quality references. See this diff: [23]

You removed absolute and reliable proof that the rioting started on Thursday September 28, 2000, the day of the Sharon visit. See WP:Reliable sources#News organizations. The BBC, CNN, and the New York Times are high-quality reliable sources. You deleted most of this:

Notes

2. ^ a b c d BBC ON THIS DAY | 28 | 2000: 'Provocative' mosque visit sparks riots. September 28, 2000. BBC. "Palestinians and Israeli police have clashed in the worst violence for several years at Jerusalem's holiest site, the compound around Al-Aqsa mosque. The violence began after a highly controversial tour of the mosque compound early this morning by hardline Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon. ... Soon after Mr Sharon left the site, the angry demonstrations outside erupted into violence. Israeli police fired tear gas and rubber-coated metal bullets, while protesters hurled stones and other missiles. Police said 25 of their men were hurt by missiles thrown by Palestinians, but only one was taken to hospital. Israel Radio reported at least three Palestinians were wounded by rubber bullets. ... Following Friday [Sept 29, 2000] prayers the next day violence again broke out throughout Jerusalem and the West Bank."

3. ^ a b "Battle at Jerusalem Holy Site Leaves 4 Dead and 200 Hurt", New York Times (September 30, 2000). . "This morning, both sides started out tense, after clashes on Thursday [Sept 28, 2000] provoked by Mr. Sharon's visit."

4. ^ a b "Israeli troops, Palestinians clash after Sharon visits Jerusalem sacred site", CNN (September 28, 2000). . "A visit by Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon to the site known as the Temple Mount by Jews sparked a clash on Thursday [Sept 28, 2000] between stone-throwing Palestinians and Israeli troops, who fired tear gas and rubber bullets into the crowd. ... Also Thursday [Sept 28, 2000], an Israeli soldier critically injured in a bomb attack on an army convoy in the Gaza Strip died of his wounds." --Timeshifter (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Jay's point is that the second intifada wasn't the second intifada until it came to be known that way. It's a valid point. If later sources do not date the second intifada to the 28th, then Jay's point stands. Is it indeed the case that the consensus of later sources is that the 2nd intifada started on the 29th?--G-Dett (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Later note: G-Dett later changed her mind: "I too initially accepted these elements of Jay's false framing" - Read the full comment in the diff [24], and G-Dett's many other comments below. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a source that isn't really reliable, but might be considered as such by some: "When the intifada started on the 29th of September, many injured Palestinians were sent to hospitals."[25] Jayjg ^(talk) 03:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Sources:

BBC: [26]

New York Times: [27]

CNN: [28]

Those sources reference this: As reported by the mainstream media (BBC, New York Times, CNN, etc.) the first major riot with injuries occurred on September 28, 2000, soon after a controversial visit earlier in the day by then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount, a site held sacred by both Jews and Muslims.

There is nothing there in that sentence that talks about when the Second Intifada began. So no claim is made. In fact farther down in the article there are various sourced opinions on when the Second Intifada started. The BBC, CNN, and the New York Times are references for the Sept 28, 2008 riot and injuries the same day as the Sharon visit. Jayjg is talking about referencing opinions on when the Second Intifada began. I am referencing events.

Rather than Jayjg continuing to delete the sourced info on the events another solution is to move the various sourced opinions higher up in the article concerning when the Second Intifada began. Clearly delineate events from opinions. See the current version edited last by Jayjg [29] and this section: Second Intifada#2000. It says

On September 27, Sgt. David Biri was killed;[21] some Israeli sources view this as the start of the Intifada.[22] Others view Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif on September 28 as the initiating event.[23][24] Finally, others believe it started a day later, due to the introduction of police and military presence the day following Sharon's visit, the day of prayers.[25][26] Still others believe that it started with the video of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah being shot on September 30.[citation needed] Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada.[27][28][29][23]

It could be changed to include the September 28 riots and injuries, and opinions on whether the Sept 28 riots and injuries were considered to be the start of the Second Intifada by some sources. Events - opinions - events - opinions. We only need to separate the two.

This is clearly incorrect in the current Jayjg version in the intro: "the first major clashes occurred on September 29, 2000, the day after a controversial visit by then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount" --Timeshifter (talk) 04:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This topic here is getting me sidetracked from the main topic I am discussing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#A dispute on Second Intifada. So rather than duplicate discussion I will discuss the topic of my interest there. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I can see nothing wrong with what you're trying to do. It is deeply partisan of us to claim "the first major clashes occurred ... day after a controversial visit" as if there have to be multiple Palestinian deaths before a clash becomes major. An NPOV lead would say (or at least "refer to the belief") that it was Sharon's visit that triggered the violence. The NYT tells us that that is what "all arabs" believe.

However, serious observers of this article will be more puzzled that there's no mention of the 1,300,000 bullets fired by Israeli forces in the first few days of the Intifada - and the claim (eg in the same 2004 Israeli newspaper article) that this was "not a war on terror, but on the Palestinian people" and "first three months ... Israeli casualties was low ... IDF proudly cited the large number of Palestinian casualties".

Then there's no mention of the well-attested theory that Sharon's visit was a deliberate provocation to de-rail the final Israel-Palestine agreement (2000 Camp David, 2000 Taba, 2001 Geneva Accords, 2002 Road Map), which would, according to virtually all commentators, lead inevitably to the withdrawal of all settlements on the West Bank. PR^talk 13:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Please stop soapboxing, PR. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any soapboxing. All the issues PR covered are relevant to the discussion about what should be covered by the article. Part of PR's comment though should be discussed in a separate talk section though in my opinion. I am going to copy that part to another talk section, and everyone can comment on it there. That way this talk section here can stay more focussed. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Blather about an unsourced conspiracy theory is soapboxing. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Strange, very strange. Going through the secondary sources, I'm finding that – contra Jay's implications – there's no consensus at all that the 2nd intifada began on the 29th. Some say the 29th, some say the 28th. Absent some compelling reason not to, I think the article lead should mention the clashes on the 28th. Explicit wording about when exactly the "second intifada began" can easily be avoided.--G-Dett (talk) 17:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Second section of the article

This is the article section after the lead section.

Immediate background and start of the Second Intifada

Timeshifter's version

Note: For working reference links see this version of the article: [30]

The Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David from July 11 to July 25, 2000 took place between United States President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. It failed with both sides blaming the other for the failure of the talks. There were four principal obstacles to agreement: territory, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, refugees and the 'right of return', and Israeli security concerns.

On September 27, 2000 Sergeant David Biri of the Israeli Defense Forces was critically injured in a bomb attack near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip. He died the next day.

The starting date of the Second Intifada is disputed. Some view the start to be the September 28 riots and injuries soon after then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif. Others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, the day of prayers, when there was the introduction of police and military presence, and there were major clashes with deaths. Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada. In the first five days after the visit, Israeli police and security forces killed 47 Palestinians and wounded 1885. 5 Israelis (including Sgt. David Biri) were killed by Palestinians.

Michael Safyan's version

Note: For working reference links see this version of the article: [31]

The starting date of the Second Intifada is disputed. Some view the start to be the September 28 riots and injuries soon after Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif. Others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, the day of prayers, when there was the introduction of police and military presence, and there were major clashes with deaths. Others view the Second Intifada as having started when Yassir Arafat walked out on negotiations at Camp David in 2000 and note that there were Israeli casualties as early as September 27; this is the Israeli "conventional wisdom", according to Dr. Jeremy Pressman, and the view expressed by the Israeli foreign ministry. Most mainstream media outlets have taken the view that the Sharon visit was the spark that triggered the rioting at the start of the Second Intifada.

Comment Two things must be distinguished (1) The start of the 2nd intifada (2) whether this was a formal start to an uprising that had either been planned, or inevitable after Camp David. Public perceptions, highlighted here, are interesting, but not historically useful. As Pressman shows, 'the conventional wisdom' got things wrong, and as Yoram Peri and many others argue, the public's idea of what was behind it reflects the impact of IDF policies in the aftermath of the outbreak. There are several interpretations, but public perceptions just reflect newspapers of the day, as opposed to scholarly perceptions which look into the actual motivations of the historical actors as these can be interpreted according to all available evidence in the wisdom of hindsight. It is preferable to play down newspaper sources and government opinions, close to the events, because they are evidence for perceptions, or positions, and rarely tell us much about what was really going on behind the scenes. By 2008 we have an ample number of specialized studies of the phenomenon by scholars, and these should take precedence. I append two, of many notes, bearing on public perceptions and the idea that Camp David had something to do with it (which only means we have to then call in the crucial events of Feb-March 2008 with the Vatican-Palestinian accord, the breakdown of talks with Barak there etc. and the chain of things never stops, unless we incorporate all key events over the period). By the way you give a large number of refs for Israeli 'conventional wisdom', none for Palestinian 'conventional wisdom'. The Israeli gov doc. speaks of a 'wave of violence' before the incident from the 13th to the 27, which breaks down to a mere two incidents of tension (actually chronic for years at Netzarim) at the Netzarim junction, whilst Pressman shows this to be untrue since only one Israeli had died duiring the year - hardly a wave of violence. We need better sources than this, especially if they are to be quoted extensively in the notes.

The failure of the senior command level has to do with adoption of Gilad's perception and the unwillingness, or inability, to examine the events from the perspective of the Palestinian public. Senior IDF commanders disregarded, or did not understand, that the unrestrained firing of so much ammunition has implications at the strategic level, and its outcome was liable to spin the violence out of control. The escalation was by this time unavoidable. It was obvious that as long as the IDF high command clung to the idea of the "military victory," it would have to step up military activity and use tanks, helicopters and F-16 jets, which are not the most effective means of waging war on terrorists.

After nearly four years of warfare, one can state with certainty that the IDF indeed succeeded in "burning into the consciousness." Not that of the Palestinians, however. Rather, of the Israeli public, which has adopted without dissent the worldview that has guided commanders of the IDF in their policy in the territories. Amos Gilad beat Amos Malka, and the State of Israel apparently lost Yoram Peri,Generals in the Cabinet Room: How the Military Shapes Israeli Policy, US Institute of Peace Press, 2006 pp.98-99. The whole chapter is required reading however

'The PA twice tried to avoid provocations in September 2000, something that is inconsistent with the search for a pretext for violence. First, it let pass the perfect opportunity for launching an intifada, the 13 September date when Palestinian leaders considered but decided against unilaterally declaring Palestinian statehood. Despite repeatedly threatening to declare independence, the PA consistently backed off from such threats and let “sacred dates” slide.8 This also reflects a quiet year until the intifada: in the first nine months of 2000, one Israeli died from Palestinian terrorism.9Pressman p.116 Nishidani (talk) 22:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way you give a large number of refs for Israeli 'conventional wisdom', none for Palestinian 'conventional wisdom'

The Palestinian conventional wisdom is that the Second Intifada began with Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, and the overwhelming majority of the content of the "Start of the Second Intifada" article is already devoted to this view. The alternative view which was mentioned -- that is, that the Second Intifada resulted from Israeli use of excessive force in repressing Palestinian rioting -- is certainly not an Israeli viewpoint. It seems only proper that, in the interests of WP:NPOV, both Israeli and Palestinian viewpoints would be represented. There was a previous version of the "Start of the Second Intifada" section which mentioned the Israeli viewpoint, albeit to a lesser extent, and I would be willing to accept that version; however, I find it entirely unacceptable for a section talking about how the start of the Second Intifada is disputed to then only show one side of the dispute. ← Michael Safyan ^(talk) 05:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

You are both correct. Public perception should be referenced along with scholarly analysis of what actually happened. Since wars are sustained over perceptions initially, and only later do the scholarly, thoughtful behind-the-scenes books come out. Even those are oftentimes part of the perception wars. So multiple viewpoints have to be shown there too. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of second article section

I suggest combining the above 2 versions, and adding some additional immediate background info. Such as the Sept 16, 2000 Palestinian commemoration of the Sabra and Shatila massacre just 12 days before the Ariel Sharon visit of the Temple Mount. See:

• http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/16/palestinians.anniversary.reut/ --Timeshifter (talk) 21:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea, Timeshifter. ← Michael Safyan ^(talk) 05:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. I tried combining them. I made a few minor changes in wording to clarify Israeli perceptions. Please see this version of the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Intifada&oldid=252325790

I, or others, need to add more references on Yassir Arafat and the Palestinian parliament's postponement of the planned September 13, 2000 declaration of statehood for an independent Palestinian state. The CNN reference I used was dated before the postponement decision was actually finalized. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I see this farther down in the article: "Starting as early as September 13, 2000, members of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement carried out a number of attacks on Israeli military and civilian targets, in violation of Oslo Accords.

Are there any specifics on this? I think something about this should be higher up in the article in the immediate background section. Also, were there any Palestinian casualties between Camp David and the start of the Second Intifada? --Timeshifter (talk) 08:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes and ownership concerns

I fail to see a consensus for the recent changes, which include some neutrality issues, and I also see a couple more "forget about your changes, they don't help and things were excellent" style comments. I'm not going to revert the recent changes as of this moment since I'm interested in finding a way to collaborate. However, there seems to be an ownership issue here that needs to stop. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

To clarify some of my concerns. The article currently uses "Some Israelis" (see: WP:WTA), presents killings in a non neutral manner and there seems to be a synthesis problem as well with the mention of the Sabra and Shatila commemoration. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Attempt to move forward

Assuming that from my changes, one of the least controversial is the one where the order of explanation on "al-Aqsa" and "Intifada" is altered and a bit more info is added to the text.

• "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a prominent Muslim mosque, constructed in the 7th century CE at the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, a location considered the holiest site in Judaism and third holiest in Islam; and "Intifada" (also transliterated Intifadah) is an Arabic word that literally translates into English as "shaking off".

Is there any objection to that re-phrasing? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with your rephrasing. I went ahead and put it in the lead paragraph since it doesn't really do anything radical. It just changes the order of info, and it adds "constructed in the 7th century CE" and "a location considered the holiest site in Judaism and third holiest in Islam" - which are good additions. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Hope we can resolve the other small points with such ease :) Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I find that in the current version of the lead, when it gives a whole sentence explaining that "Al-Aqsa" is the name of a mosque but doesn't say a word about what that mosque has to do with the Intifada, that that sentence is boring and tends to lose the reader's attention in my opinion. (Sorry.) I would suggest either explaining in the lead that it's the name of a mosque and also saying something about how that mosque is (alleged to be) connected with the beginning of the Intifada, or else leaving all that for later in the article. Someone had a good idea of having a wikilink to a section of the article, but for one thing I don't see a good place to put the wikilink, and for another thing I think it would confuse the reader: they're not expecting a link to within the same article, and unless it explicitly says something like "see here for explanation of why the Intifada is called "Al-Aqsa"", the reader might not know what type of information the link is offering. In general, the lead is too short and needs to summarize more of the article. These are just my suggestions; I'm not blocking consensus. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 02:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)