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Talk:Second Chechen War/Archive 4

< Talk:Second Chechen War
Latest comment: 9 months ago by Laszlo Panaflex in topic Military losses cites
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Sources

Latest comment: 1 year ago9 comments3 people in discussion

Ola Tønningsberg, thanks for adding information to the article. I've checked a small part of the sources you used and found a few problems:

  • Quoting only the upper bound of the range given in the source [1]
  • No sources for a claim [2]
  • Using a very dubious source for an WP:extraordinary claim [3]
  • Using a passing mention in a newspaper article when much better sources are available [4]

Could you please review all the content that you have added and make sure it's supported by reliable sources? Alaexis¿question? 16:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Alaexis

  • 1. The first source mentions the 9,000-11,000 killed range for Russian soldiers. The second source states 11,000 killed in the same period based on names provided by Russian families to the organization. Therefore I drew the conclusion as a general consensus of the sources that 11,000 Russian soldiers were definitely killed in this time frame. However, based on the two sources provided we will leave it as it is from your latest edit.
  • 4. For now I will agree with your latest edit, in light of more numerous sources.

Thanks for pointing out these inconsistencies.Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Regarding #1, the second source dates from February 2003 and so Melnikova's figures are likely to include the whole of 2002 and maybe the beginning of 2003. On the other hand the first source provides the figures for "the second war’s most intense phase, from its beginning in late summer 1999 to early 2002." Since there is a separate source for the 2002-2004 period, I think it's better to leave the 9-11 thousand range. Alaexis¿question? 07:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Re #3 the Chechen Minister of Health is a source associated with one of the sides of the conflict. Just like we shouldn't take what Russia says about its losses at face value, we should be careful here too. At the very least it should be attributed. Alaexis¿question? 07:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I agree Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 14:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Ola Tønningsberg, there is a few issues with your edits. However, I think there is room for compromise and consensus. Namely, the problem is proper attribution for the figures, see WP guidelines on this Wikipedia:Attribution.
First, [5] you say "total killed" for Russian losses which implies the figure is factual. The figures need to be appropriately attributed, just like we attribute figures claimed by Russia. Thus it needs to be emphasized those are in fact "independent estimates" (and estimates coming from different sources in fact).
Second, [6] it may be obvious to you personally, but it may not be to the readers, so proper attribution needs to be made for the figure on Chechen anti-Russian losses since there are in fact two different Chechen factions, one being pro-Russian, the other anti-Russian.
Third, [7]. I removed only one source, Deutsche Welle, which mentions 4,749 deaths in the period from August 2002 through August 2003. I did this because I considered it redundant for the following reason... This period is already covered by the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers figure [8] which is for 1999-2005. The second reference [9], attributed to an analysis by both Jane’s Group and the Jamestown Foundation gives 9,000-11,000 dead from 1999 through February 2002, with another 3,000 dead for 2003. So that's, as I wrote, a total of 12,000-14,000 killed for 1999-2003 (excluding March-Dec. 2002).
Fourth, the consensus you mentioned here [10], as far as I can see above, was for the 9,000-11,000 (1999-2002) range to be be presented, which was actually removed from the infobox here [11] and you did not restore it.
Fifth, with your edit here [12] you removed the sources for losses among the Chechen police, FSB and GRU. If you insist on removing them again then we do not actually have a total of 7,268–7,476 dead as per Russia.
Sixth, with your edit here [13] you removed the figures as per the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, as well as its citation, for the period from 1999 through 2005.
Now, to be clear, I actually support the earlier compromise to present the 9,000-11,000 (1999-2002) range, with the separate figure cited to Military Balance (via DW) for 4,749 dead during 2002-2003. However, proper attribution for both figures needs to be presented. Further, there is no basis to remove the figures presented by the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, which actually covers a larger time range than the other two sources (two years longer). To continue, in principal I do not support (for which there was no previous discussion for a compromise) combining estimates from two different organizations into one total (13,500-15,500) which is in my opinion contrary to WP: Original Research and WP: Synth potentially. However, for the sake of compromise, I would support presenting 13,500-15,500, but only if its properly attributed. I myself would be ready to reinstate this range, but only if you agree on attributing the figure. However, in that case, separating the 9,000-11,000 range and the 4,749 would be redundant and should be removed then (again, I can do it myself). As for your removal of sources for dead among Chechen police, FSB and GRU, if you still insist on this, then by all means remove it (I would not object), but you will need to adjust the total figure of dead as per Russia. Finally, proper attribution needs to be presented for the claim on losses among anti-Russian Chechen forces. It can be cited to Shamil Basayev, who was the primary source. What does Alaexis think regarding this? EkoGraf (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, EkoGraf. Thanks for tagging me as I think you misunderstood me. I don't have an issue with attributing the sources. The problem was that you removed two sources in your edit, this and this. The 9,000-11,000 source only counts for 1999 to early 2002, ignoring much of 2002 while then giving a number for 2003. You wrote this as 1999-2003 which was another issue. Regarding your 4th point, I didn't combine these two sources, just changed it back to the previous revision before you edited. Regarding 5th, I believe writing the individual losses for all the different russian forces unnecessarily clutters the infobox, so I combined them into one count. I don't remember removing the sources for chechen police/fsb/gru, might've been accidental. Not sure about WP:SYNTH, I might go ahead and ask someone more knowledgeable on a noticeboard or something regarding this. On a final note, there's nothing called "anti russian chechen forces". You have Chechen forces and pro Russian chechen forces in this conflict. I think writing "Shamil Basayev claim" just sounds silly. He's one of the senior leaders of the Chechen movement, therefore it would be more correct to write "chechen claim". Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
The infobox looks much better now than in your first edit. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Apologies, I've been pretty busy lately. I think the infobox looks better now that all the claims are attributed. Please lmk if there are unresolved issues. Alaexis¿question? 22:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @EkoGraf:. I thought you supported to have the 13,500-15,500 range as long as it was attributed, which it was.

The Second Chechen War and the insurgency in the North Caucasus

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

What is the problem with statement, that these events are considered together as united and ongoing armed conflict? There is similar statement in insurgency in the North Caucasus. Alex Spade (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:24, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I have a complaint about jjmc89 because he vandalise and remove images of the secon chechen war forget to remove the captions of the pictures will you guys lock this wikipedia page to avad any more incidents 2001:4453:4CC:DF00:BC8A:F6CC:9A88:EF20 (talk) 13:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Military losses cites

Latest comment: 9 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

The Military losses section includes cites in the text of the second sentence and in footnote 162 that do not appear to relate to the sources claimed in the text. The text discusses numbers compiled by the National Endowment for Democracy and Russian Ministry of Defence, but the cites are to a website called Prague Watchdog (watchdog.cz), and the figures there appear to be from the Kavkaz Center and are not from the same time period as discussed. I don't know if this site is a reliable source, but the text misrepresents the source of these figures. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I kept the first link and corrected the discussion in the text regarding its source. The second cite does not correspond to the time period discussed in the text, so I removed it entirely. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 18:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
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